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Palestinian loss of land 1946-2000 [Pic]

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  • P5ycHo, on 03/01/2008, -146/+281And naturally, the US supports Israel.......
    • stonebear, on 03/01/2008, -66/+60Why not? The US perfected this technique, and is glad to act as mentor and consultant in this cutting edge development of conquest and genocide, even paying Zionist Israel 6 billion dollars a year for the privilege.
      • foopirata, on 03/01/2008, -39/+17Ah, now it is 6 ? If I see your next post will it be 12 ?
        • stonebear, on 03/01/2008, -10/+62Apologies; there was 2.46 billion dollars in disclosed US aid for Israel in 2007.
        • foopirata, on 03/01/2008, -29/+17One and a half B-2 bombers.

          http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAi ...
          “As in previous years, Israel and Egypt are the biggest bilateral recipients under the request, accounting for nearly five billion dollars in aid between them. Of the nearly three billion dollars earmarked for Israel, most is for military credits.”

          credits. Not a check to use wherever. Credits that keep Americans on their jobs in lines at McDonnell Douglas, Raytheon, etc.

          Now take a look at this:

          http://www.heritage.org/Research/TradeandForeignAi ...

          http://www.heritage.org/Research/InternationalOrga ...

          Amazing what some perspective does, uh.
          • chicofaraby, on 03/01/2008, -20/+32"One and a half B-2 bombers"

            Or tens of thousands of doctor's visits for American children.

            "Amazing what some perspective does"

            The Heritage Foundation? I already know that the American extremist right wing fruitloops think. Who cares? You ***** are on your way down the toilet.
          • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -6/+26At around $70/visit, it is actually about 28 million doctor visits.
          • TobiasParker, on 03/01/2008, -4/+8Where is Martalli going to the doctor? I went to the ER because i thought i had a concussion, the doctor had me stand on one foot, said i was fine then sent me a bill for 300 dollars.
          • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -5/+9I am talking about an office visit, not an ER visit. That's a pretty low fee for an ER visit.
      • PxCxG, on 03/01/2008, -15/+5you're a douche.
    • atdigg, on 03/01/2008, -25/+127"they hate us for our freedom"
      • geoffg, on 03/01/2008, -46/+10Oh I get it they hate us for supporting Israel...not our freedom. Wow I finally get it, stop supporting Israel and close down all US military bases around the world and the world instantly becomes a better place, just like it was in the 30's. Wow it's so simple it's almost like a child thought of it.
        • CoreOverride, on 03/01/2008, -7/+24Do you hate the Australians for their awesome accents? Do you hate the Scandinavians for their personal rights and liberties?

          Does that make sense?

          Did you read the message Osama Bin Laden sent to the world after the WTC attacks? It may open your mind:
          http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobs ...
        • caferrell, on 03/01/2008, -4/+17Lets see GeoffG.... We are now spending more than half of all the military expenditure in the world. We are basically in a state of perpetual war. Most of the world distrusts us and many truly hate us. We have been attacked abroad and at home. Our economy is now ***** thanks to perpetual war and military spending.
          And you say, in your funny little ironic way, that thinking the world will immediately get better by stopping our wild military careening around the world is silly and naive.
          I also doubt that all will be healed in one glorious burst of world-wide love and understanding when we bring our military under control. However I think that it will be better than it is now and we won't be generating billions of debt for our children to pay. We won't be maiming another generation of American young men.

          If we are going to err, wouldn't it be better to err on the side of peace and controlled spending?
      • e30guy, on 03/01/2008, -4/+34well since we lost our freedom due to the patriot act I guess they don't hate us anymore.
        • 1randomguy08, on 03/01/2008, -3/+18Im Australia I kinda hate you for NOT having freedom.
        • caferrell, on 03/01/2008, -3/+5@e30guy's - I wish you were right, but unfortunately They get their information from White house press conferences and Fox News, so They are pretty sure that we are still "the freesht people uh,.. in the plant uh ... on the worl"
      • solid12345, on 03/01/2008, -12/+15They hate us because we are infidels. There is no Al-Queda or Taliban, only radical Muslims with guns, what they call themselves on any given day is irrelevant.

        For hundreds of years Palestinians never revolted against their Turkish masters. Why? Because they were Muslim, and in Islam, loyalty to religion trumps nationalist identity. That is why they hate Israel, because they cannot stand the Al-Aqsa mosque being under territorial control of heretic Jews.

        • jromney, on 03/01/2008, -4/+15Sorry buddy, but you've been suckered by the western propaganda machine. This conflict has very little to do with the mosque and has everything to do with Israel violating UN resolutions and illegally and violently taking land from the Palestinians that isn't theirs to take. The only reason they haven't been sanctioned for it is because the good 'ol USA keeps using it's veto in the UN to prevent sanctions against Israel. So Israel gets to break international law without consequence and it's because of the USA that they're able to get away with it. That's why they hate us.

          It's no wonder the Palestinians are resorting to violence. The diplomatic system failed them a long time ago. What other options do they have?
          • solid12345, on 03/01/2008, -5/+4Al-Aqsa Marty'rs Brigade? Hamas (Islamic Resistance Movement)? Islamic Jihad?

            If this is nothing about religion they sure inject Allah and Islam into their rhetoric now don't they?

            And why is it whether you are in a mosque in detroit or Indonesia, at some point you are probably going to get a sermon about how it is every Muslim's duty to support the destruction of the "Zionist Entity."
          • Speed, on 03/04/2008, -1/+1Since they have "Never Again" (referring to the Holocaust) in their constitution, a crap load of nukes and a persecution complex, can you really blame the US for not standing up to them?
        • meshaghian, on 03/02/2008, -2/+2And it seems like you've been suckered by arab propaganda.
          "The diplomatic system failed them a long time ago."
          the last i remember, in 1948, 1967, and 1973 multiple arab states invaded israel. tell me, how is that diplomatic? Israel captured the territories in wars the arabs started, and they want to give it back for peace. if you don't believe me, look at what they did with sinai. However, they know that palestinians will never stop the rocket attacks, even if they withdrew from the territories. look at gaza; israel withdrew, and rocket attacks continued. palestinians will not stop violence until israel is destroyed.
          the arab states are using the palestinians as their pawns to get the rest of the world on their side, even though most of the things they say are bull. apparently, and unfortunately, it seems to be working.
          • jromney, on 03/02/2008, -2/+1Israel pulling out of Gaza was a symbolic gesture at best. It is a small piece of a huge portion of Palestinian land that Israel is currently occupying illegally. It is common place for a Palestinian to return home at the end of the day to find his house bulldozed to the ground because Israel decided they needed the land to support their expanding colonization. Israel is doing this illegally.

            Remember when Iraq tried to occupy a portion of Saudi Arabia illegally? We went to war with them to stop it and the UN supported that war. Well Israel has been doing the same thing to Palestine for years. They are exercising an illegal occupation of Palestinian lands and they are in violation of international law by doing so. No one is coming to Palestine's rescue because the US keeps stopping any UN efforts to do so. So do you really think Palestine is unjustified in their actions? I agree that their tactics are not getting the desired result and they are struggling internally about what to do. Some think violence is the answer, others, diplomacy.

            But make no mistake, Israel is very much in the wrong in this situation probably more so than Palestine. The difference is that for whatever reason, Israel has a superpower as it's ally.
          • jromney, on 03/02/2008, -1/+1Whoops! Obviously when I said Saudi Arabia, I meant Kuwait ;)

            Sorry. Typed a little too fast there.
    • LongShlong, on 03/01/2008, -30/+16Well, considering they have first hand experience in holocaust-style tactics, it's better to just give them the money and let them 'do their thing.' Those CRAZY Palestinian terrorist! Shucks!
    • Tinkered, on 03/01/2008, -42/+31Yes. Israel is a western democracy with strong economic and cultural tries to the West. The US supports many countries that are western democracies with strong economic and cultural tries to the West.
      • LupeFiasco, on 03/01/2008, -9/+32Strong economic ties to Israel eh? ***** looks pretty one sided to me. Americans need to make their tax dollars work for THEM.
      • pintomp3, on 03/01/2008, -8/+27a western democracy? south africa had a "democracy" during apartheid too.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -17/+14There is no moral equivalence between SA and Israel, no matter how hard you want to try.

          There is no apartheid in Israel. Arabs serve in parliament and judiciary. Those are facts. Dispute them.
          • pintomp3, on 03/01/2008, -8/+18even desmond tutu calls it apartheid.
            http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020715/tutu
            he's kind of an expert on the subject.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -12/+7I notice you cannot dispute my reply. Arabs serve in the government. How is that apartheid?

            Since when is Tutu above common sense? He is an expert because he was jailed in a true apartheid state?

            Dispute that there are arabs serving in the Israeli government. That would give credence to an apartheid argument. And it is exactly why the apartheid argument fails.
          • caferrell, on 03/01/2008, -5/+15The Arabs that stayed in 1947 are still tolerated. They may have the same rights on the law books, but they are not treated the same by the police, in the workplace or naywhere else in Israel. They live in Apartheid that is camoflauged for American eyes.
            More important is the fact that all Jews have the right to immigrate to Israel, Arabs do not, nor does anyone else.
            Is it a fair system, obviously not.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -13/+4Camoflauged apartheid by letting arabs serve in the government? And as judges?

            Man, that is some serious discrimination going on there.
          • ICanRead, on 03/01/2008, -5/+8Don't be ignorant. It's the same ***** in Iran. There is a huge Jewish population there. They have seats in government. They are second class citizens. You better be able to see this both ways. If you cannot see this, then I am sad.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -7/+3Sorry for your misinformation, there are no Jews in the iranian government. It is a great attempt at propaganda, yet it does not, and will never exist.

            Moral equivalence rears its ugly head once again to no avail.
    • unreg, on 03/01/2008, -10/+36But it was the UN that gave them the land.
      • rex3, on 03/01/2008, -16/+6is it co-incidents that the native indians of america didnt get back there land
      • Aggaman, on 03/01/2008, -11/+29When the UN consisted of only a few countries, and most people still lived in someone else's empire. Anyway, if the UN decided that your house should be mine, would you lie down and take it like a bitch?
        • FatherVic, on 03/01/2008, -13/+21No... but i wouldn't kill your children.
          • Aggaman, on 03/01/2008, -13/+18Both sides engage in deliberate policies where children are likely to die. But none of that changes the fact that the Palestinians are the victims of an apartheid that denies them civil rights.
          • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -9/+20Palestinians suffer far greater loss of life than Israelis in real life. On TV life, Israelis loss of life gets far greater attention. Is one life worth more and why or why not?
          • lickmylovepump, on 03/01/2008, -8/+2"Is one life worth more and why or why not?"--- Yes. Those that want to live in peace, should live in peace. Those that want to kill for their religion should die before they get their chance to.
          • solid12345, on 03/01/2008, -12/+5Israelis get more coverage of loss life because they have a culture of life. Palestinian culture is a culture of death, where else in the world would a "grieving" mother get on TV and say she was proud her son blew himself up and she is ready to give her next one up next.

            Notice how these Palestinian parents never strap on the vests themselves and "do their duty". Much easier to send your unemployed kid off to blow himself up and collect the welfare, excuse me, reward from Hamas or Al-Aqsa Martyrs.
        • unreg, on 03/01/2008, -4/+3My comment was aimed more to the fact that the UN ceded the land to the Israel, not the United States. If we had truely wanted to be a peacemaker in the region, we would grab our pals the jews by the scruff of the neck, give a good shake and tell em to start behaving themselves.
      • member57, on 03/01/2008, -11/+5Actually, of course lost to liberal history, the UN PAID the Palestinians for that land. It was bought fair and square. The Palestinians saw the Jews as a vulnerable target, they planned to take the money, welcome the Jews then kill/ enslave them and force then off the land. The Jews, of course, had other plans...
        • plaunie, on 03/01/2008, -0/+6"The Palestinians saw the Jews as a vulnerable target, they planned to take the money, welcome the Jews then kill/ enslave them and force then off the land..."

          you have proof of course
    • danger127, on 03/01/2008, -35/+22Allah kinda fell asleep at the wheel on this one, huh.
      • lickmylovepump, on 03/01/2008, -11/+7he was busy fondling his 9 year old wife.
      • danger127, on 03/01/2008, -7/+4Oh, What? Is everyone here a muslim? Why did I go from +3 to -8?
    • elipabst, on 03/01/2008, -24/+22So we should support those who hate us and turn our backs on those in the region who support our interests?
      • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -8/+33What our are interests? Democracy? Oil? Neither are present in Israel. They have democracy for a lucky few, and the rest of the people have no vote for the Israeli government and almost no ability to do things like dig wells or drive to the hospital quickly when sick. As far as I know, Israel has almost no oil.
        • elipabst, on 03/01/2008, -6/+6Almost 20% of Israel's population consists of Israeli Arabs, who are citizens of Israel and do have the right to vote. They also have extended citizenship to residents of a number of areas with Muslim populations such as East Jerusalem and areas of the Golan Heights. So I don't know who you're talking about, do you think the people of Palestine should be able to vote in an Israeli election? Do you think that residents of US territories like Puerto Rico and Guam get to vote in the US Presidential election? Guess what, they don't either. So you could argue that they have at least as much of a democracy as the US, if not more.
          • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -1/+8The people of Guam and Puerto Rico are under protectorates. Puerto Rico has been offered Statehood several times and rejected it, but it is still a potential offer. A striking difference in this case is that 5.9 million people live in Gaza and the West Bank without a vote, while 7.1 million live in Israel with a vote.
            If America held sway over 250 million people and refused to give them a vote, it would be more similar to what is going on in Israel.
          • elipabst, on 03/01/2008, -4/+4"A striking difference in this case is that 5.9 million people live in Gaza and the West Bank without a vote,"

            Sure they do. They voted in their own elections and put Hamas into power, remember? Even if you consider them occupied territories (which they're not) then it's still ridiculous to argue they should get a vote. Iraq is an occupied territory, should they get to vote in the US election in November? Second, even if Israel were to offer them a right vote, there is no way they'd accept it and the neighboring Arab counties would throw an absolute fit because it would a step closer to having the Occupied Territories getting annexed into Israel proper. If the goal of the Palestinians is to have a sovereign country of there own, then voting in Israel's election would be a huge step backwards. Personally I think they deserve a sovereign Palestine, but trying to argue that they're somehow oppressed because they can't vote in someone else's election is retarded. They're not even citizens of that country, should illegal aliens from Mexico be given the right to vote?

            /End the repression of Guam
          • Kyan, on 03/01/2008, -1/+2"should they get to vote in the US election in November?"
            That could be rather interesting.
          • martalli, on 03/02/2008, -1/+1I am suggesting that we dissolve the borders, and have the west bank, gaza, and israel as a single country - as it was pre-1947. There is no issue then with a right of return. They would all be citizen of the country. They could call it whatever they want, but I would suggest retaining the current Israeli system of government since it is already in place - for stability's sake. How would that not serve democracy?
      • LupeFiasco, on 03/01/2008, -5/+11Of course they support you guys, why would they bite the hand that feeds them.
    • kolobcreek, on 03/01/2008, -31/+34Interesting it doesn't mention they lost most of the land after 1946 in unprovoked wars against Israel. And that Israel was on the verge of total defeat a couple of those times. It is totally unfair see: http://69.93.148.82/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22 ...
      • ryuujin, on 03/01/2008, -13/+20"totally unfair"?

        Err, are you attempting to suggest that because there are Muslims in all of those countries, that somehow they're all the same?

        That's like saying since so many in Scotland are christians, they're all part of the same nation of the "united kingdom"; who would care if Jews set up a country in Scotland and kicked them all out? Or maybe Ireland? I'm sure nobody would complain in Ireland, and do nasty bombings and assassinations if we kicked everyone out... right? And because a few of them committed violence like that, the people have no right to complain when you kick them out! Where were they speaking up when their compatriots were fighting? Oh yeah, trying to LIVE.

        Maybe all the people who live there who consider themselves part of an independent country wouldn't agree with that viewpoint?
        But no, no, there's lots of places for them to go in the world.

        In fact, why don't you set up the "send all Palestinians to Somalia" campaign, maybe Pakistan? They're all Muslims right, who gives a ***** about nations when you're talking religion? Both parties will welcome it with open arms I'm sure!

        My vote for dumb arguement ever.
        • kolobcreek, on 03/01/2008, -7/+5My point was if they really gave a ***** about the Palestinians they could give them some of their land. As for comment on how different they all are. If they were really all that different they wouldn't have teamed up against the Israelis on multiple occasions. By the way it was on those occasions that the Palestinians lost more land. It is amazing how little people know about the Israel yet they seem to shoot their mouths off about it.

          My point in saying it wasn't fair was more to get you to look at the photo. Isn't much fair in this world. Especially what happens in the middle east. Israel has changed hands more times than I think any of us can count. And lets face it the Israelies only took more land when they were threatened by other Muslim nations. SO the way I see it if you start a fight and get your ass kicked be prepared to pay the consequences.
          • snypa, on 03/01/2008, -3/+6What stupid logic you are using. If the US and Britain give such a damn about jews, then why not put them all in part of the US/Britain?
          • Abomonog, on 03/01/2008, -3/+9Do you even realize that Israel has no historical right to even exist as a nation where it stands?
            That region was conquered by the Persian Empire over a thousand years ago. It was returned to the Jews by the U.N. in '46 as "reparations" for the Holocaust. By all rights Germany should have been the country that was dissolved to give the Jews a homeland. Germany, the country that brought barbarism to the modern age and expanded it so well.
            Not Palestine, a country that had no real stake in WW2 but did happen to hold a lot of real nice beach front property. I do not agree with the chosen tactics of Palestine, but I totally see why they are pissed.
    • Choobie, on 03/01/2008, -30/+23Lets forget that most of the land Israel took was in DEFENSIVE wars.
      • adooga, on 03/01/2008, -16/+38The Israelis consider all of their fighting to be "defensive". So what?
        • lickmylovepump, on 03/01/2008, -14/+4just keep telling yourself that.
      • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -5/+35Did Arabs invade Europe in the last cenury? I fail to see where the Europeans in Israel started off in a defensive posture.
        • lamprey187, on 03/01/2008, -5/+4When Israel was attacked immediately after becoming a state in 1948.
          • Jlaugh, on 03/02/2008, -1/+1You mean when they seized Palestinian property at the point of a gun. Going house to house kicking out the previous inhabitants?
      • RationalXubrnce, on 03/01/2008, -6/+23 How can you call it defensive when the reason it all started is that Israel was taking their land in the first place? It's not like they came to Europe to start with the Jews.
        • PxCxG, on 03/01/2008, -6/+6Sorry, but Arab v. Jew tensions started WAAAYYY before then.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/01/2008, -3/+17Modern Zionists are assholes. Sorry, but I feel a lot more sympathy for the Palestinians now that I've read up on the history of this whole travesty. I'm not anti-semitic in the least. In fact I grew up in a Jewish community, and most of the liberal jews are disgusted by what Israel has done to the Palestinians. The politically conservative jews on the other hand tend to be... Zionist assholes.
          • lickmylovepump, on 03/01/2008, -9/+3are they? or do they just not like having their ***** blown up all the time?
          • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -2/+10Wake up lickmylovepump: The Palestinians suffer far greater loss of life and *way* more loss of property than the Israelis, even on a day by day basis.
        • ExtraEye, on 03/01/2008, -3/+6You call it defensive because the Israelis bought that land from them. The stealing of land, which I condemn, happened in the war in 1948. Of course Israel is to blame for many things in this conflict but the Palestinians are definitely no saints. Anyone who tries to simplify the problems and starts to say one side is entirely wrong while the other is completely right is just making his own life easier. Such thoughts would not lead to peace for anyone...
      • pintomp3, on 03/01/2008, -3/+18if by defensive you mean preventive, then yes.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_war#1967_A ...
        preventive wars are illegal under international law.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -12/+5No, they were not preventive. The arabs have continually declared war against Israel and lost.

          Your propaganda only goes so far against facts. History proves you otherwise.
      • 1randomguy08, on 03/01/2008, -4/+17Defensive my ass how many settlements has the Israels got on the West Bank.
    • dhVyse, on 03/01/2008, -39/+39ANY country would support Israel. THREE countries attacked Israel after it was a country for only 3 days, tons of Arabs fled thinking the Jews would loose quickly, and Israel won the war DEFENDING themsevles from an attack. Normally, in a War where the offensive country looses land, the winner is not obligated to give anything back. But Israel did anyway. Alot more then they should of.. obviously it's alot more complex then what I mentioned, but that sums it up pretty nicely.
      • LupeFiasco, on 03/01/2008, -18/+53you are missing the point. You keep mentioning these defensive wars but you fail to realize that what people are really pissed about is the land being given up in the first place. It is a valid point. Why did a conflict mainly in Europe result in the reallocating of land in the middle east. If the Jewish people want a land to call their own thats cool, but not at the cost of other peoples homes.












        • petard, on 03/01/2008, -18/+24QUIET we don't like it when you put up a valid argument against the great Israel!
        • PxCxG, on 03/01/2008, -24/+4If the Palestinians don't like that, they should step up and take their land back by force. But since they are too weak to do that, they should stop their bitching.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/01/2008, -3/+16What is wrong with you? Might makes right? Not in my book. Most sane people would violently disagree with your mistaken assumption.
        • ryuujin, on 03/01/2008, -3/+12lol PxCxG... I believe last time they tried that they lost MORE of their land..
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -15/+18Um, study history for the answer. Israel has always had Jews present. Before WWII, the Jewish National Fund was purchasing land LEGALLY from arab landowners that were more than happy to sell it.

          When Israel declared independence in 1948, arab countries attacked and told the native "palestinians" to flee their homes and await the great victory. It never came.

          How is that at the cost of other people's homes?
          • VinceNoir, on 03/01/2008, -14/+14Pro-Zionist lies and propaganda. So sorry you bought in.
          • lickmylovepump, on 03/01/2008, -16/+7oh, that's right vincey. isreal didn't start off there did they? love to erase those history books as we move along, huh? it's ok, keep believing what you want. you WON that fight in high school, didn't you little buddy? you were one of the cool kids in college, right? now you are the coolest person in your town, and everybody loves little vincey? fairy tales don't change what really happened. now get to bed before mommy and daddy wake up! nite-nite little vincey!
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -9/+7@vince

            Unfortunately for you, that is how history has been recorded. Call it what you will.

            Sorry that you have bought into the side that lies and has no factual basis for any of the stories it tells aside from the ongoing belief of the useful idiots that choose to believe it.
          • LupeFiasco, on 03/01/2008, -4/+7How much of that land did they buy? did it constitute making a country? Was it all that land in the map in this article and did they keep on buying more land through the years to make that last map in the article happen?
          • Abomonog, on 03/01/2008, -2/+9Hate to support a troll but 'Niors right. Israels independence included the violent eviction of nearly a million Palestinians from their homes and the grabbing of their lands.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -4/+4@lupe

            Well, let's see. Land purchases began around 1902 and by 1935 stood around 89,500 acres, which supported 108 communities. All this done by just ONE group.

            BTW, the map you refer to in the article is arab propaganda which is meant to elicit the outrage reaction most useful idiots have when they don't understand the history of the region.
          • lamprey187, on 03/01/2008, -4/+3As sad is this will sound, you have the accurate picture of the history of this land. On digg, nobody will listen to you though. They will throw around words like "Zionism" and "The Jews" without having a clue about what they are speaking of. Not understanding secular Zionism, religious Zionism. These same folks never ask themselves what if Israel was a Christian state. They would then sing a different tune I suspect. Which is why their arguments are usually anti-Semite in nature. If any of these "anti-Zionists" were not filled with hypocrisy they would give all their land back to native Americans, and also return Texas back to Mexico, and the entire country of the USA back to England. Give Iraq back to the Iraqis. Remove all military presence from Europe. Let Japan build a giant army and have nukes. etc.
            @all the anti-Semites, you are nothing more than bigots.
        • ExtraEye, on 03/01/2008, -1/+7"Why did a conflict mainly in Europe result in the reallocating of land in the middle east" - two answers:
          1) Israel is not a result of the holocaust, or at least Zionism isn't (for example my town was established in 1883). Zionism has started mainly from anti antisemitism around the world. When the jews felt they were being let in the wanted to get along in their own country as much as possible, whereas in places where they had a bad time with unequal laws and hate crimes against them, they wanted to live inside their communities and eventually make their own nation were they'll be the majority instead of staying the minority all the time. That is the actual start of Zionist thought.
          2)The holocaust probably did make the U.N acknowledge Israel more easily, and also the holocaust did make many Jews immigrate.

          Why the middle east?
          Because in Jewish religion Israel is the promised land. If the Jews want a country that as many Jews will immigrate to, Israel was the best choice and it really has proved itself in that area.

          It didn't have to be at the cost of people's homes. There were voices that talked about making a country along with the Palestinians, actually at one time they might have been the majority or close to that. These people changede their minds or their ideas weren't popular anymore once the conflict began - which is the reason I think the Palestinians have a great part in the situation in which they live today. Right now a sane Israeli would probably not agree to live in one country with the Palestinians, some support a two countries solution.
      • raindogmx, on 03/01/2008, -14/+3Thank you, Israel. You rock.
    • airburst, on 03/01/2008, -18/+10Naturally? So, which 'Jews control the government' theory do you subscribe to?
      • RationalXubrnce, on 03/01/2008, -3/+7There's more than one?
        • airburst, on 03/01/2008, -2/+10My bad. I was lumping in banking, world domination and the mossad introducing Yoko to John Lennon.
    • FrostyNod, on 03/01/2008, -10/+2Ignorant comments i am seeing first learn then speak.
    • PxCxG, on 03/01/2008, -15/+16It seems to me like most americans who are highly critical of isreal are just to young to know about what happened after WWII and to know why it is that the isrealis are always so defensive about their arab neighbors.
      • jonnyeh, on 03/01/2008, -1/+4Very true, most people around the world (outside of Arab countries) supported Israel through the 60s and 70s. They were the plucky little country that could always defeat the odds when attacked by a bigger and stronger opponent. Since Arafat has changed the image of the "palestinian" people to that of victims, not of their Arab neighbours that refuse to help them, but instead arm them, but of the vil "Zionist" occupiers.
    • bobangitanov2, on 03/01/2008, -10/+14it's called survival of the richest
    • qwertydvorak, on 03/01/2008, -14/+4Hot zionist chicks. They can invade my territory anytime... http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?t=13
      • hamdogger, on 03/01/2008, -7/+2wowowow, agreed! i only looked through the first page, but i was surprised not to see the one with the three girls in the ice cream shop. got a quick link to that one?
      • VinceNoir, on 03/01/2008, -5/+13All I saw is the jewish female equivalent of the Nazi youth. It's so sad that Israelis have become such a war mongering society. I guess it's a lot like when an abused child grows up and becomes an abusive parent.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -10/+3So sad that you can actually libel Israel while ignoring the very things the "palestinians" do to their children. Take off the blinders.

          Go pick up a history book. Read. Learn. Save yourself from embarassing yourself like this.
        • hamdogger, on 03/01/2008, -7/+3mine wasn't a political comment. just remarking on the hotness of the girls in the pictures. then again, pretty much any girl 10-15 years younger than me is hot.

          btw, i am 33 for reference purposes.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -2/+1@ham

          The comment was intended for vincey.
    • Mustard911, on 03/01/2008, -0/+2The Pharisees are at it again, especially in the White House.
  • PantherX, on 03/01/2008, -82/+233Yes, instead of integrating their society, they practice segregation and force people to live in reservations which they slowly shrink.
    • BedPost, on 03/01/2008, -2/+36It's a shame that the Oklahoma plan never... wait. What people are we talking about?
      • ramunenke, on 03/01/2008, -0/+2umm, the aborigines? something with an "A"
    • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -32/+22Segregation? In Israel? Where arabs sit on the Knesset and the judiciary? That is segregation? Interesting way they go about oppressing people over there. By actually integrating them into society and then get accused by useful idiots of apartheid.

      Give them a voice and let them vote. Let them participate in governance. How many arab countries give their own people similar freedoms? NONE.

      Do you think you would have rights in a muslim country if you weren't muslim? You can lie here all you want, yet the truth will always be the truth. You would not. And yet you sit here and parrot arab propaganda.

      Segregation? In egypt, yes. In syria, yes. In lebanon, yes. In saudi arabia, yes. In iran, yes. In Israel, no. But don't let the truth stop you.
      • source1984, on 03/01/2008, -13/+22those arabs in the government are for cosmetic reasons. no one gives a damn what they say. No one is treated the way palestinians are treated in occupied territories in ANY arab country whether they be muslim or nonmuslim. Defending Israeli policies are hopeless.
        • airburst, on 03/01/2008, -12/+9Sudan is muslim country. Darfur is in Sudan. That makes you wrong.
      • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -13/+8Cosmetic reasons? How should I know why they were VOTED into office.

        Yet they are there. Facts are not working for you source.

        And then you make a comparison about treatment in the "occupied" territories which actually is correct. If "palestinians" were lobbing rockets into any arab country, they would be annihilated without any thought. And the world would yawn.

        Were you crying for the "palestinians" when hamass was fighting fatass in gaza? Probably not. We all know it was Israel's fault they were killing each other, but where was the global outrage? The world yawns again.

      • raindogmx, on 03/01/2008, -5/+16No, no segregation at all. In fact their love is so huge that they had to build a wall to avoid it from spilling outside the country.
      • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -10/+5@raindogmx

        Wow. True ignorance.

        Do you comprehend that a wall was built to keep suicide bombers OUT?

        I didn't think anybody could be that stupid. I stand corrected.
        • ElAssoWipo, on 03/01/2008, -2/+6At least he's not defending murderers and oppressors.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -5/+2Anyone that supports "palestinians" is supporting murderers and oppressors.
        • ElAssoWipo, on 03/01/2008, -2/+4Add racists to the list.
    • barakatx2, on 03/01/2008, -18/+48when i went to palestine for the first time, i had to go through tel aviv because israel closed the palestinian airport yearrrrs ago. so when we get to israel (me and my family), we waited in the long passport lines, and noticed that anyone that looks palestinian was taking forever and eventually sent somewhere other than the next part of the airport. so it turns out all palestinians were being put in a small room by themselves, and every 5 minutes an israeli airport security guy would walk in and drag one of the men out and throw them around yelling about random things. they did not let the mothers change their babies so there was constant crying. everyone had to stay at least 3 hours, if not 5,6,7, or even 8 hours, or even just sent back to wherever they came from. They did this to every palestinian that was on my flight. Is that not racism, segregation, and discrimination?
      • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -17/+17Ever consider that El Al has never been hijacked because of their security?

        Ever wonder why there are now checkpoints and roadblocks where none existed before the intifada?

        What you have described is called survival instincts. If the palis did not have an affinity for killing innocent people, there would not be such inconveniences. Yet they choose to kill themselves and others.

        How would you protect your family if you knew somebody wanted to enter your home and kill them?
        • VinceNoir, on 03/01/2008, -4/+14I would try and get them to crawl out of the window and avoid conflict. You have a seriously flawed view of the world. Palestinians don't want to kill anyone. Only extremist terrorists do. THat would be you in the United States. So you wouldn't have a problem if I was doing airport security here in the U.S. and I bashed you around a little bit because you seem like a pro-Zionist American terrorist? You would have an issue if I kept your wife and kids trapped in a small room with no food for eight hours and cause you all to miss your connecting flight just because I think you might spread hatred and lies about Palestine? I think not. You'd have major problems with it. But then you would also prove yourself a hypocrite.
          • JKVM, on 03/01/2008, -6/+2How many Zionist Americans have walked into a crowded place and blown themselves up? How many Zionist Americans have hijacked planes? It's not racism to take extra security measures against those most likely to be threats. It's common sense. Just as it is a lack of common sense that forces random screenings at US airports while 15 of the hijackers on 9-11 were Saudi.
          • XNihil0Zer0, on 03/01/2008, -2/+5American's don't blow themselves up because they have tanks and predator drones instead of donkeys and dynamite. Terrorists hijack planes because they dont have F-22s. Its war, its ugly, they're desperate. They're going to use any tactic they feel can forward their goal.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -12/+3How european of you to crawl out of your own house to avoid conflict.

          And no, "palestinians" that are brainwashed since birth to kill Israelis don't want to kill anyone. What could I be thinking?Why believe my lying eyes? I guess I will just have to consider what really happens in Israel.

          You have proven yourself to be a true useful idiot throughout this thread. You have no common sense nor any sense of historical fact.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/01/2008, -4/+9And you've proven yourself to be a whore to the pro-Zionist cause. Palestinians "brainwashed since birth to kill Israelis"? Is that like the stereotype of jews with horns who love money? Stop being a bigot and a racist. You know what you are saying is a convenient lie to make you feel better at night about the atrocities your side is guilty of. You are the idiot, not I.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -8/+2Keep telling yourself that one vincey. Ever catch any of the pali produced children's TV shows? The ones that promote becoming a shahid?

            Probably not. Because they actually exist. No, you don't deal with facts or reality. You defend a culture of death and can only resort to name calling because you cannot refute what I say.

          • VinceNoir, on 03/01/2008, -1/+4I guess all Germans are Nazis then? Get back to us when you come back from fantasy land.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -4/+1The German people were complicit with the final solution. Didn't necessarily make them nazis. But they did not attempt to stop it.

            Same goes here. Nobody is attempting to stop the terrorists, so there is complicity. Even worse, they promote death on their children's shows. Refute it. You cannot.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/01/2008, -1/+2You're really a bigoted an angry person full of hatred aren't you? I'll bet when you look at a Palestinian child all you see is a terrorist. You're pathetic and disgusting. People aren't born evil out of the womb. And it's worse yet when you paint an entire race with a color in that way. You'll notice I took great care in saying that I'm anti-Zionist but not anti-semitic. That's because even though there are people like you (assuming you are jewish), you as an individual don't define your nationality. You are simply a bad outcome. If you're American without a drop of jewish blood in you, then you're even more despicable because it would then be quite obvious that you love war and violence and despise peace and unity.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/01/2008, -1/+2As far as their children's shows go, there isn't one nationality who wouldn't present children with the heroes of their nation. And yes... one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. I don't think the royal family in England was sitting around calling the American resistance "freedom fighters". They were branded with the day's equivalent of "terrorist". Here in America, the wrongheaded right wing is doing the same thing, constantly parading twisted versions of "freedom", "democracy" and "heroes" in front of out kids. That's why I my daughter doesn't watch those kinds of shows. I don't want her mind to be poisoned by the right wing. I'm certain the majority of Palestinians who just want to lead normal lives don't sit their kids in front of "terrorist training with Barney" videos. Just as there are jewish people who want nothing to do with the IDF.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -2/+1@vincey

            You replies continue to illustrate your lack of cognitive thought. You just have no concept of what reality is in the ME.

            You can actually preach about peace and unity all the while "palestinians" receive BILLIONS of dollars in annual aid and what do they do with it? Build infrastructure? Move their own people out from the tent cities? Of course not. They purchase weapons and pay suicide bomber's families.

            With regards to children's TV shows, I will bet you have no clue as to who Farfour the mouse or Nahoul the bee are, do you? You have no concept of how children are brainwashed from birth. You are blinded by your own cultural bias and just cannot fathom another culture that values death over life.

            Don't be certain the majority of "palestinians" want to lead normal lives. They have been provided more dollars per capita than anyone else on Earth and yet they still choose death and destruction over life and prosperity.

            The more you defend your freedom fighters, the more you display your ignorance of what is really happening.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/02/2008, -1/+2Correction... the Palestinian government receives BILLIONS of dollars annually. Their actions do not reflect the morals of their citizens. For example, the U.S. is using my money for that horrid conflagration in Iraq. I don't support it at all. But can I do anything about it? No. My votes for better presidential candidates don't seem to count. I can't go to the government and tell them to use my money for more peaceful endeavours. All the protesting I do doesn't mean a thing to the government. As it is the current U.S. government is not representative of me at all. But do you think any Iraquis are aware of that? Unlikely. And there are many people like me here in America. Far more than people like you. So for you to assume that every single Palestinian is an evil terrorist from birth illustrates just how sick and twisted you are. Once again, you are a war mongerer and a lover of violence. You hold a strong hatred of peace and unity. People like you must be destroyed for the greater good.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/02/2008, -2/+1Good comeback. Ignore the entire text of my reply while taking a few liberties with conjecture.

            Dispute my claims. It is obvious you cannot. Because I have truth and facts on my side. You have emotion and lies.
            Little bit of a difference. But not to someone that ignores facts. (Hint, you)

            Once again, due to the lack of ability to refute my position, you have resorted to name calling and ad hominem attack. You have proven that you don't have a grasp on ME history and your continual replies support your ignorance.

            Must suck to really be you.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/02/2008, -1/+2The only one ignoring facts is you. You refuse to accept that there are Palestinians who do not want to kill Jews and do not hate Jews.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/02/2008, -1/+1I am sure there are "palestinians" who don't want to kill Jews, but they probably keep it to themselves for fear of being savagely killed by their own brethren.

            And your point is what? Once again you do not address the issues raised and offer conjecture.
        • VinceNoir, on 03/01/2008, -1/+2And regarding you saying "How very European of you". How is that even an insult? Is it now insulting to go calling people the wrong nationality? If I said, "You're such an Ethiopian!" would that constitute a grave insult to you? If it does, you have far more serious issues than I'd already guessed. As far as trying to sneak away to avoid an aggressor, what's wrong with that? As you stated, their intent is to break into my house and kill my family. Why would I stay? They don't intend to live there. All I'd have to do is leave, then go to the authorities and let them know that someone broke into my house to kill me. Conflict is not for the average person. I leave that to law enforcement and the military as appropriate. If you would stay and fight an aggressor, you have some kind of inferiority complex that you want to bolster up through idiotic actions that are dangerous to you and your family. I'm sure glad you're in the minority.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -2/+1@vincey

          This response takes the cake. Survival is an instinct every living being is born with. Your response demonstrates the lengths you would go to avoid protecting yourself and your family. Quite the opposite of a natural instinct.

          The majority of sane human beings would stand up and fight a threat to one's existence, and not rely on the authorities who may, or may not, be able to protect you. Standing up for oneself is now considered to be an inferiority issue? You must be joking. One should feel inferior if they were to submit to another's will against their own.

          It is no wonder that people like you live in a make believe world. To accept and understand that danger continually exists in the world is to know that one may have to stand up and fight to survive at any given moment. Personal responsibility for one's own existence should be ingrained into every person by instinct. You would rather turn over the responsibility for you and your family's well being to someone else. I pity your family.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/02/2008, -1/+2I'm not an animal. You seem to want to live like one. So much for trying to have a civilized discussion, that is impossible with an animal who puts survival first. Human beings with compassion are cooperative and work for the greater good. That's who I am. Whatever the hell you are, you sure aren't living like a civilized human being.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/02/2008, -2/+1If you were an animal, Darwin's theory would have taken care of you long ago. And since you cannot refute anything I say, you now debase yourself to insults.

            Survival comes in all forms, which includes exercise and good nutrition as well. It isn't just about the threat of force.

            Do you look both ways before you cross a street? I do. I guess I am uncivilized because I do not want to get hit by a vehicle.

            I also don't drink and drive. I must be incredibly uncivilized because I don't want to kill myself or others.

            Obviously you have concluded that you cannot win the discussion with conjecture, so insult me and go about your day.

            So sad.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/02/2008, -1/+2You were talking about survival in the context of a conflict situation. Stop trying to use misdirection, it isn't working. When it comes to conflict or an attack, the best thing to do is escape and then come back with help. One single person against an unknown foe is not a wise survival tactic. Only a simple animal would think it was and would defend it's family. But since I'm not an animal and most civilized people don't act in the ways you seem to think they do, I won't do something as idiotic as putting my life at risk when escape is a viable option. Beyond that, the possibility of someone coming into your house to kill you is a preposterous scenario in most American cities. It just doesn't happen that often unless you live in a crime ridden location and have personal relationships with dangerous criminals.

            Regardless this is all completely off the topic. You won't have the last word though. I will beat you even if it means I will do it by attrition.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/02/2008, -2/+1More pathetic rambling from someone with no grasp of the past nor the present.

            As mentioned, you cannot win the discussion with conjecture, so now you choose the path of attrition. I already have the high ground in this exchange. I speak from history and facts. You speak from emotion and conjecture.

            So european of you.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/02/2008, -1/+2How is calling me European an insult? Frankly I find it quite a charming description even if it's not true. The European Union is one of the greatest places on Earth. If only I could be lucky enough to leave the U.S. and live there...

            You have no grasp on anything other than hatred. It has clouded your ability to see reality. I hate no one. I hate war and violence. War and violence needn't be a part of human civilization. People like you simply perpetuate these pointless and lesser aspects of life. Why? Maybe personal gain? Maybe you just enjoy seeing people suffer? I'm not like you, nor will I ever be like you. I'm the first person who would give you a chance should you want forgiveness for being a warmonger though. Every human being on the planet is born with the nature of cooperation and willingness to do good. It's ridiculous teachings that can mar people into becoming filled with hatred. Even you started off as a good person at one point. And you can become a good person again if you start loving humanity again. It's obvious that some kind of serious damage occurred to you in your life. It's sad that the end result is so vile.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/02/2008, -2/+1Laughable. Thank you for the faux concern though.

            Unlike you, I see reality crystal clear. I don't wear blinders to cloud my view of actual events that might not fall within my perception of the world. Cognitive dissonance seems to be a problem for you, not for me.

            You may want to rethink your statements about every human being is born with the nature of cooperation and willingness to do good. Maybe you don't have children, which would explain alot. Children need to be taught to share. It is not something that comes naturally. Some take longer than others to break, but it is a learned behavior. Ergo, it is not an instinct.

            You seem to argue against natural instincts and wanting to ignore them. That aspect makes you european. Rather than take any personal responsibility for yourself or actions, defer your decisions to a higher authority such as the government or collective mindset. That way, you will be taken care of without a worry.

            Nice introduction of the word warmonger though. I am certainly not a warmonger, but that is irrelevant when you are attempting to frame a common sense argument with an insult that I somehow would need to defend.
            Not a chance. Just more conjecture.
          • VinceNoir, on 03/03/2008, -1/+1I don't wear blinders as I'm quite aware of how bad things can be. But they are only that way when any small group with an agenda works to make it that way. Those groups would be the Zionists and the Palestinian terrorists in this instance. If there were a way to rip away every child from either side at birth and raise them in a civilized, war free zone, every one of them would grow up to be productive members of society.

            For the record I do have a child and she has always been very cooperative from birth. It's a norm, whether you choose to believe it or not. I was very cooperative as a child too. My parents only needed to talk to me to get me to follow the rules. My wife is the same. And as adults we are law abiding citizens. Obedience is not a trait in animals. But it is a trait in civilized humans. This crosses race, religion and gender.

            I don't ignore natural instinct, I just know that they don't apply to me. Nor do they apply to most intelligent humans. You get beyond your animal nature as long as you live in a civilized place. I can understand reverting to more animal like behavior in places like Palestine though. But who's fault is that? The Israelis.

            Please note that I'm borderline Asperger's. That means I'll keep responding until you are silent.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/03/2008, -1/+1Funny how you keep pointing to the word civilized as if those that hold the socialist view of the world are civilized and those that believe in personal responsibility are somehow not.

            BTW, it is an intelligent human that understands and utilizes natural instincs. Even more so when you live in a civilized place. To ignore your instincts is to put you life in potential peril. Put your life into somebody else's hands for protection, rather than yourself. It is no wonder you speak like a european soclalist. Someone that thrives in a nanny state.

            It also explains how you can blame the Israelis for the "palestinian" problems. The palis are provided more money per capita than any other group of people on the planet. And yet, what do they do to improve their lot in life? Nothing. Because they do not have to. They have apologists like yourself that hold themselves above the lowly "palestinians" because they are just savagaes anyway. Any civilized person wouldn't act that way. Since you know they are civilized and act like savages, there must be an external influence. BINGO! The Israelis.
            The Israelis give you the perfect scapegoat to explain why otherwise civilized people would raise their children in a cult of death.

            You have now mentioned that you will keep on replying back twice. Are you feeling a tad bit insecure about your pathetic responses and feel you have to get the last word? What do you feel you are going to win?
            Scroll through your drivel and witness a socialist living in a capitalist country. That must tear at your big heart.
            If only you could rip children away from their parents and institutionalize them at an early age, all your problems would be solved. Fortunately, people like you are the fringe of society. Keep your hands out of my pocket and out of my house.

            Can't wait for the next waste of a reply.

          • VinceNoir, on 03/03/2008, -1/+1No. It is you who are on the fringe. Libertarian idiots would destroy the world and make things an "every man for himself" proposition. That is truly an abomination as it completely abandons large segments of the population who do not and will never have the resources to survive. In essence, anyone who supports the flawed libertarian ideal, is a murderer who chooses to let the helpless die. If that's your brand of personal responsibility I and people like me will obstruct you and people like you in every possible way.

            As far as me responding and my comment on continuing to do so, I'm trying to let you in on a little info that you seem to be missing. But, I'll leave that for you to figure out since you're such a genius.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/03/2008, -0/+1vincey, should I have expected anything less than conjecture once again? What could I have been thinking.

            Just interested, how do you make the correlation between my support of personal responsibility to accusing me of being a murderer that would choose to let the helpless die? Think you are a tad bit over-reaching on that one.

            In fact, I spend a lot of time doing community service and feel the best way to reach those in need is through the private sector. Unlike yourself, I do not believe that government is the answer to problems but rather private individuals. Notice the plural of that last word. More than one. People working together.

            Somehow, you have taken a liberty with your (lack of) reasoning and made a wrong assumption. Yet, I see you a mile away.

            As for your mentioning of Asperger's syndrome, one symptom of this condition is a lack of common sense. I am sure you mean well and you do care about people (just not Israelis, who are subhuman), your responses do not take reality into account. If you mean to imply that you are now obsessed with replying to this thread, knock yourself out.

            As previously stated, I have the high ground on the issues here. You haven't been able to dispute the points I have put forth, so you continually reply with conjecture and insults. If you are trying to make me feel guilt for not having an affinity toward socialism, don't waste your time. It has never worked wherever it has been tried and it is failing in europe too.
        • VinceNoir, on 03/02/2008, -1/+2Re: Germans being complicit with the Nazis in WWII

          So all those Germans who risked their lives to help Jews escape from the Nazis were just a fairy tale? How insane are you with hatred for the Palestinians that you believe that every last one either wants every Jew dead, or at best doesn't care? As I pointed out in another post, a government, political movement, or even a religion does not identify every member of a nation that is held hostage by the ideals of said organizations. I despise the Bush regime and it's reign of terror. But there is nothing I can do about it. Not one single thing. This is why I choose to avoid identifying as an American right now. I'm not anti-American. I stand for what it used to be before if got twisted into it's present state. And I know plenty of people who share my views. We all feel trapped and helpless because there really is nothing we can do. There were Germans who felt the same way. There are Palestinians who feel the same way. The fact that you can't open your mind to that shows how much your thinking has been destroyed and rotted with filth, lies and hatred.
        • VinceNoir, on 03/02/2008, -1/+2Re: Palestinian Children's Shows

          I don't doubt there is such programming. Does that mean every kid watches it and lives by it? Does that mean every parent thinks, "Yes! My child must become a suicide bomber"!? No, it doesn't. Here in the U.S. we have a pop music duo that comprises two white supremacist neo-nazi girls in their early teens. They don't think Hitler was a bad guy at all. They also have plenty to say about why white people are better than anyone else. Do you think, because these girls are Americans, that every American mom and dad wants their kids listening to their message? And lets say the wet dream of every neo-con in America came true and we got a white supremacist as the president of the United States. Let's say he makes it law that all children in school will listen to Prussian Blue. Do you think Americans who would have previously been opposed to that would suddenly change their minds and say, "Great! Now our kids can learn why the white race is superior"!? That you believe every Palestinian child is being sent the message that it's good to be a terrorist, is equally as ridiculous. You can't support the one line of thinking without supporting the other. If you tell me that Americans will suddenly all become white supremacists based on who is in power, you are seriously lost.
      • renagadex2, on 03/01/2008, -0/+3Sensationalist observation.
    • WeThePeople2012, on 03/01/2008, -3/+14Just like we did to the Native Americans.
    • kingmanic, on 03/01/2008, -10/+2Considering Palestine is a separate nation, Israel is practicing immigration in the same form as all other nations not segregation.
    • joot2112, on 03/01/2008, -8/+7it's hard to integrate with people who believe you have no right to exist
    • someuser90, on 03/01/2008, -4/+1Imagine there's no countries
      It isn't hard to do
      Nothing to kill or die for
      And no religion too
  • yonoz, on 03/01/2008, -275/+4601) What data is this based on?
    2) The Palestinians never accepted the partition plan.
    3) There is Palestinian land inside Israel, if you consider Arab Israelis to be Palestinians (which they are).
    4) Similarly, "Palestinian" land can be considered Jordanian and Egyptian prior to 1967.
    5) Why not show the loss of Jewish land in Arab nations over the same time period?
    6) Why not show the status between 1967 and 2000 - Israel handed over more than 1.5 times its current size in peace accords during that time.
    • atdigg, on 03/01/2008, -87/+257"2) The Palestinians never accepted the partition plan."

      So this logic goes like this "you have not accepted an unfair plan therefore you deserve to be subjected to an even less fair partition". Huh?
      • tekirkedicik, on 03/01/2008, -36/+10yoıu are 99999999999 percent righy my friend
      • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -38/+27There were 6 points addressed and you manage to cherry pick number 2.

        Consider the fact that the Jewish National Fund had been purchasing land from arab land owner over the course of years prior to any partition of the palestine mandated territory. The land was considered waste and the arabs couldn't wait to sell it.
        Jewish immigrants developed the waste and made it prosperous. This drew many more immigrants to the area, both Jewish and arab.

        The land of "palestine" was so named by the Romans, not by any arabs. After the fall of the Ottoman empire, the British took control of the territory. They decided to rid themselves of the governance of the territory and it was decided by the UN to partition land to both arabs and Jews, who had historically lived in the region.

        The Jews accepted the partition. The arabs did not. In fact, arab countries attacked Israel the very next day after its declaration as a country. "Palestinians" were told to leave the area as the Jews would be driven into the sea. That is not how it ended, is it?

        So no, the "palestinians" never accepted a partition that awarded land to both Jews and themselves, which both parties had a claim to.

        I don't expect you to believe this. After all, these are facts. Why believe facts when you have your opinion?
        • buggu, on 03/01/2008, -8/+17For someone who refuses who continues to deny the legitimacy of the native population and land of Palestine by putting it in quotes, you sure are a little too concerned about other people accepting their opinion as fact.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -13/+11Who was the leader of this great nation of "palestine"? Please name him.

          What is the arabic word for "palestine"?

          When you can answer those questions, I will stop using quotes.
        • dooraley, on 03/01/2008, -13/+4agreed. there was no palestine. Egypt should take Gaza and Jordan should take Westbank and all the ***** burka wearing ayrab ***** will live happily in their Sharia Law ***** eating coutnries. buncha morons on here
        • Poltras, on 03/01/2008, -5/+10Right from wikipedia... فلسطين
          There is a leader for arab palestine right now: Mahmoud Abbas.
          Don't bring your own propaganda to counter others propaganda. There is a national authority for Palestine and you know it.
          • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -4/+5The Palestinian National authority is about as meaningful as a student government. For years, the Israeli government would torpedo the police stations when there was an attack on Israelis. They have effectively weakened the Palestinians' government to the point that it is only a straw man for the Israelis to blame for problems.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -5/+3@poltras

          HA!!! How pathetic. Did you even read my question? I repeat:

          Who WAS the leader of the great nation of "palestine"? The nation that existed before Israel since you cannot seem to grasp that far.

          It is news to me that propaganda is asking who the leader of their country was before the Jews stole their land. I already know the answer. That was the reason for the question.

          While you are at it, go look up the arabic word for "palestine". Maybe it is on Wiki too. Get back to me when you got those answers.

        • brendonla, on 03/06/2008, -1/+2And tell me, who was the great leader of Israel before the creation of that artificial nation-state by U.N. decree in 1948? Who exactly?
          • yonoz, on 03/06/2008, -1/+1David Ben-Gurion
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Agency_for_Pal ...
          • brendonla, on 03/07/2008, -0/+2So a bunch of Jews standing around start an organization while under British rule? That's not a nation-state. It's a group of people.

            You missed my point, but let me spell it out for you: There was no Jewish nation-state before the U.N. decree and thus no one could be the the "great leader of Israel".
      • RationalXubrnce, on 03/01/2008, -15/+48"The land was considered waste and the arabs couldn't wait to sell it."

        Yeah all that coastline to the Mediterranean Sea, no one wanted that right? Seriously how can you believe that tripe?
        • pintomp3, on 03/01/2008, -7/+16the "land without a people for a people without a land" was based on a lie.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -16/+7Um, yeah nobody wanted it.

          Don't believe me. Look it up. Those pesky facts again. Ruining another opinion.
        • MsAntiSunshine, on 03/01/2008, -8/+7Israel was either a swamp or a desert. The land was infertile. Water was scarce, especially clean water. Indeed, no one wanted it.
        • fgsfds, on 03/01/2008, -3/+11Wait, you mean the fertile crescent is infertile? ALERT THE INTERNETS!
        • yonoz, on 03/01/2008, -2/+2Actually, much of the coastal plain was swamp. The Jewish settlers brought Eucalypts for their fast water absorption, that's why they're very common around Israel.
        • Synova, on 03/01/2008, -1/+3Nobody wants Jerusalem...WAIT A MINUTE...I think you are on to something here.
      • yonoz, on 03/01/2008, -6/+4No. The logic is "if you do not accept a partition plan and start a war with the intention of annihilating the party that did accept it, you deserve to be subjected to the unfortunate consequences of losing territory in that war".
      • cababika799, on 03/03/2008, -0/+2Plus, if you can come up with a way of making the world fair...you let everyone know...you think it's as simple as calling the local police station and yelling foul.
    • CrudeDarkness, on 03/01/2008, -42/+124"6) Why not show the status between 1967 and 2000 - Israel handed over more than 1.5 times its current size in peace accords during that time."

      that's called the 1967 land which Israel never gave back.
      • Birdoftruth, on 03/01/2008, -25/+12UN gave it to them retard.
        • Dested, on 03/01/2008, -10/+6It always tickles me when someone uses facts and childish name calling in the same sentence.
        • slezzzter, on 03/01/2008, -2/+10Actually, it's not a fact either. The 1967 land gains were the result of the Six-Day War, not the UN.
        • pintomp3, on 03/01/2008, -4/+11so if your friend steals my house and gives it to you, it is rightfully yours?
        • Pake, on 03/01/2008, -5/+3"so if your friend steals my house and gives it to you, it is rightfully yours?"
          He just stole the house from another thief, so it's fair game.
      • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -25/+15Who were they giving it back to? Not egypt or jordan. But "palestinians". People who had no original claim to that land in the first place.

        Should trans-jordan give some land back? After all, they received a huge amount of palestine mandated territory. Oh yeah, nobody cares about that. It is a dictatorship. Just stick it to a Western country.
        • RationalXubrnce, on 03/01/2008, -4/+25 I guess living there for 2000 years doesn't count for anything.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -11/+3If you are referring to Jews living there for 2,000 years, I agree. Just look at all of the apologists on this thread buying into arab propaganda.
        • Poltras, on 03/01/2008, -1/+12About the "people who had no original claim". European came to Americas seeking gold and took the land. China took Tibet. Russia took Siberia. Yes, history is greatly unfair. Always been, always will be. Learn to negotiate with what's going on now. We have diplomacy now. Israel bombing everyone around is NOT a good way to gain allies. Also, reading your posts, you're doing a pretty good propaganda yourself, pelosislefttit.
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -4/+1So Israel is just bombing everyone now and what land have they gained from it? NONE?

          And regarding my posts, I am repeating history as it is written. Propaganda is learning lies and believing they are true. Go look up anything I am saying.
      • lougoose, on 03/01/2008, -8/+2Do you remember how much they actually took? They took so much land from Egypt and gave it all back. You realize that this land is not even the size of Illinois, right? And they gave back land almost 3 times that size.
      • MsAntiSunshine, on 03/01/2008, -15/+8*****' Jews, stealing land after being attacked by three nations at once. Don't they understand that fighting back is not okay if you're Israel?!
        • rilus, on 03/01/2008, -4/+6Poor Israel, defending their right to conquest.
      • kingmanic, on 03/01/2008, -5/+4spoils of war. Most nations have some.
      • yonoz, on 03/01/2008, -9/+21) Israel gave back the Sinai Peninsula, which is larger than Israel and the occupied territories together.
        2) Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip.
        3) Israel returned land in the Jordan valley and the Arava to Jordan.
        4) Regardless of the status of the land, its return proves Israel is willing to exchange land for true peace.
    • PatNolan, on 03/01/2008, -36/+23Don't confuse them with facts.
    • deadcrickets, on 03/01/2008, -42/+41Also there is no corresponding history map showing Jewish controlled lands over thousands of years in these areas. I'm sure everyone is aware of such things as the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judea, right?
      • Rizmaster, on 03/01/2008, -9/+45Because historical ownership of the land TOTALLY entitles you to just move back in, whenever, right?

        Like that time the native Americans were given half your house. It was totally a fair partition plan. You got to keep the upstairs parts. You just had to move your ***** out of the basement within 20 minutes or it became theirs.

        That was the best compromise ever.
        • p0s3r, on 03/01/2008, -15/+19Isn't "historical ownership" the same argument the Pallies are using to move the Jews off the Jews homeland? Isn't that what this map is trying to insinuate? Pallie land in 1947 is "historical ownership" what right do they have to it today?
          • Rizmaster, on 03/01/2008, -3/+13Which is why I recognize Israel's right to exist. I'm not saying they need to pack up their ***** and leave.

            However. I also don't feel like funding their war machine. They're already more than well prepared. So they can fend for themselves. I'd prefer to see them give back the land they've conquered since the legal establishment of their nation, but I don't trust them to do the right thing under any circumstances. It'd be nice, though.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -11/+11The right thing? Giving land back that they acquired during war? How many countries have done this throughout history?

            BTW, who was the leader of this "palestinian" country? Was he a king? President?
            What is the arabic word for palestine anyway?
          • Rizmaster, on 03/01/2008, -7/+13I'm not going to go into detail, but let's name one simple example: West Germany. The 3 parts of Germany that the western powers received were eventually reunified and handed back to a German government. Aside from an American military presence that was always resented on some level, the German populace began governing themselves shortly after the war ended.

            I'm not arguing that Palestine is some great democratic nation of happy people. I don't care. I'm pointing out that that land doesn't belong to Israel and as a supposedly civilized democratic power it is their responsibility to hold themselves to a higher standard. They elected not to. As a result I consider their argument and actions inherently flawed and invalid. If you want to call yourself a proper democratic nation you can't go occupying sovereign territories. I hold the same criticism of the US government.
          • p0s3r, on 03/01/2008, -5/+8@neogoblin

            How do you define first?
          • Lukesed, on 03/01/2008, -1/+8Because people who lived on that land pre-1947 are still alive.
          • p0s3r, on 03/01/2008, -7/+7No Jews were living i that region in 1946? And by your logic, if there's an older living Jew than the oldest living Palestinian, the lands rightfully belong to Israel and the Pallies should forsake all claims?
          • Poltras, on 03/01/2008, -2/+5lefttit: فلسطين
            Stop pretending this word doesn't exist. Stop pretending there's no leader to Palestine.
          • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -1/+1@poltras

            There is no arabic word for "palestine". If you understood history, you would know why that is. By reading your various posts, it is no wonder you are clueless.
        • mithrasinvictus, on 03/01/2008, -1/+6i think the point was that historical ownership doesn't work either way.
      • Aggaman, on 03/01/2008, -4/+21Yes, and let's not forget the Kingdom of Mercia, Kiev Rus and the Golden Horde while we're at it. Let's restore every single political unit that ever existed.
        • kingmanic, on 03/01/2008, -4/+5If they have the military and political might we may yet see Kiev Rus, Golden Horde and Mercia. Remember who restores Isreal, The Jews who out spent, out flanked, out fought, out tricked, out developed, and out smarted the people there. Honestly BOTH sides wanted the same thing. A state without the other. Only one side managed to do it.
        • deadcrickets, on 03/01/2008, -4/+2The point I was making is that the Palestinian argument (that they had a homeland there, etc) is invalid. Over the course of thousands of years those lands have changed hands many, many, many times. By their argument we'd have to revert it as far back as possible in history. The same belief would then have to apply to other parts of the world from Russia to the United States to China and Argentina. To the victors goes the spoils. That is the lesson of history.
          • rilus, on 03/01/2008, -4/+0Since neither Jews nor Arabs have a valid claim on the land, they are both equallt (un)justified in fighting the "enemy" in any way they see fit, then.
          • deadcrickets, on 03/01/2008, -2/+3rilus

            Except that often the Israeli army (which has both muslim and jewish members due to the required military service there) usually only responds to attacks instead of initiating them. Hamas (Palestinians) are not wanted by either Egypt or Syria. The Egyptians even blocked them from entering their country recently due to what was going on. That should be a huge clue stick as to their status as terrorists even among arabic countries.
      • headphonz, on 03/01/2008, -9/+35Umm nope...enlighten me. I haven't heard of any Kingdoms out there. I guess you're going to give the tired excuse of how God ~gave~ this land to the Jews. ~yawn~ Prove it.

        Guess what, God told me last night he gave me your house and your car so pony up your keys pal! Don't believe me? Just ask him!
        • p0s3r, on 03/01/2008, -32/+6~you~ ~are~ ~a~ ~fag~, "~yawn~".
        • p0s3r, on 03/01/2008, -17/+7Are you two morons so ignorant that you really believe there was no Kingdom of Israel? Or that the Jews were never there? Here's a hint about how long the Jews have been in those lands. Jerusalem is pronounced JEW-roo-salem not PALLY-roo-salem or ARAB-roo-salem.
          • deadcrickets, on 03/01/2008, -1/+4Technically speaking they are Judeans not Jew if you want to go that route. Every culture on this planet has their own, unique, pet name.
          • Dumbledorito, on 03/02/2008, -0/+2And England was founded by the Engs?

            Good lord, please don't reproduce or talk to children...
          • Delphium226, on 03/02/2008, -0/+1Holy *****! I Congrats for breaking right through the floor of stupidity and into unexplored realms of ignorance. You are truly a pioneer of utter hogwash.
      • Gardimus, on 03/01/2008, -4/+23Do I have to give my house back to the natives and move to Europe?
        • p0s3r, on 03/01/2008, -7/+16After you give your land in Europe back to the Neanderthals.
        • adooga, on 03/01/2008, -5/+14p0s3r, you're not getting it back so just forget it and be happy with the cave you have now.
      • ZenMojo, on 03/01/2008, -6/+22They're still there. They're called "Palestinians." Trust me, there weren't a lot of white Jews living in Israel thousands of years ago.
        • synaesthete, on 03/01/2008, -7/+5Most Israelis aren't white, and Israelis look very similar to Palestinians.
      • Reap, on 03/01/2008, -4/+13You know what the people did? They stayed there. For a couple thousand years.

        You know what happened in that time? They converted to Islam. Just because they don't happen to be Jewish, and the kingdom of the time was Jewish, doesn't mean that they don't rightfully own the land.
        • JKVM, on 03/01/2008, -6/+3Judaism is a religion, Israelis are a people. You can convert from Judaism to Islam, but not from Israeli to Islamic. The fact that your diggs are in the positive says a lot about those reading this.
        • barwise, on 03/02/2008, -0/+0Can I convert to judaism and then move to Israel? Or do I just have to move to Israel?
      • mchugh22, on 03/02/2008, -0/+2yeah and the Jews stole that land too. Read the bible. God tells the Jews that the land is theirs and to kill other people to get it.
    • Gardimus, on 03/01/2008, -28/+107"5) Why not show the loss of Jewish land in Arab nations over the same time period?"

      Not all Arabs are the same. Unjust treatment inflicted upon Jewish people at the hands of various Arab states does not justify unjust treatment upon the Palestinian people.
      • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -17/+15It is so unjust that palis participate in the government of Israel. Go ahead, look it up yourself. How many Jews participate in any arab government? ZERO. Funny how arabs manage to consider all Jews the same and the world yawns.

        But I don't expect you to argue with facts. It would ruin the whole moral equivalence thing.
        • rilus, on 03/01/2008, -3/+2I think what's truly funny is that Iseael is so just that the PM recently said that they didn't want to allow Arabs in Israel to vote lest Israel become "a very different state."
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -3/+2Didn't let them in because they were not citizens. How many countries would allow non-citizens to participate in sovereign elections? Those that want to survive keep it to citizens only. Thanks for playing.
        • thedzyan, on 03/02/2008, -0/+2If you DID actually look it up, then you would find that Iran, being one of the few places in the Middle East with some elected government has seats reserved for a Jewish candidate. It's not much, but then again there's not much of a Jewish population. And they also try to make it clear that Zionist Jews are the ones that they don't like and not try to lump them together.
      • lougoose, on 03/01/2008, -2/+4You do realize that not all Jews are the same, right? Palestinians (of which there are many groups) are fighting the Israelis (of which there are many groups) for the same land. Right now, Israel is winning.

        Why do you think the US supports Israel? How many Middle Eastern countries have Pro-US views? Then consider the ones that say they do, and what do they do for us? Now think about what Israel does for us.
        • atticus8, on 03/01/2008, -1/+1I agree with both of your points (Jews / Arabs are not a homogeneous people), but just doing a little dispassionate number crunching would suggest that Arabs are a more heterogeneous group due to no other reason than their sheer numerical size advantage (325 mil Arabs vs. 12 mil Jews)
        • rigorious, on 03/01/2008, -1/+21. lot of jews or christians in the US. 2. maybe United arab emirate. 3. maybe sell some oil? tourism? 4. I don't think they do that much.
    • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -12/+21The important issue here is integration. If it is OK to have Israeli arabs, why not just simply forgoe the borders and once again have an undivided land. Let everyone have a vote. Don't we stand for democracy?
      • bat-21, on 03/01/2008, -18/+13Israel has made this offer several times since its founding. The Palestinians have always said "no".
        • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -6/+12Is that right? Do you have a reference? Any time in the last twenty years?
        • ramy33, on 03/01/2008, -5/+20OK. I'm moving into your house tomorow. We can share the house equally or i can force you into a corner in the attic.
      • Aggaman, on 03/01/2008, -5/+23Except the Israelis won't stand for the possibility that Jews might end up as a minority. It is like if the US wanted to make it so that white people were always in the majority in every election.
        • ZenMojo, on 03/01/2008, -3/+11Precisely. The point of Israel as a state is that it is a "Jewish" state. The point of Zionism is not to create a home for Jews but a Jewish home. A unified Israel would have extremely restricted immigration policies for one very simple reason: There are more Palestinians in Jordan, Gaza, and the West Bank combined than there are Jews living in Israel. Proportionate representation would turn Israel into a defacto Palestinian state almost immediately.

          It would be as if the United States told Mexico, "We're sorry we took everything from Texas to California from you, feel free to move back in. Conceivably, 180 million Mexicans would suddenly turn white people in the United States into a minority."
        • adooga, on 03/01/2008, -9/+4 ZenMojo:
          "180 million Mexicans would suddenly turn white people in the United States into a minority." Sounds like a good idea. How do we get the ball rolling on this?
        • renagadex2, on 03/01/2008, -2/+3Wow none of you guys understand the point of Israel. How many muslim countries can be called their own? How many christian states? Buddhist states? Communist state? Wait and how many Jewish states? Right, one. Every nation has a dark land-allocating past it just happens that Israel's is within the 20th century. I believe they have the right to exist.
      • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -11/+11Um, there is integration. Those that are Israeli citizens DO have a vote.

        Are you suggesting that arab countries allow their citizens to have a voice and vote? Of course not. Why expect anything civilized from them? You are above that.

        Israel stands for democracy. Arabs have more rights in Israel than anywhere else in the region. Why don't you go over there and convince them to leave and become citizens of any tyranny in the region? How much success do you think you will have?
        • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -5/+7Democracy would be to allow everyone under the arm of the Israeli government to have a vote in the government. Where are the Knesset representatives from Ramallah, Hebron, and Bethlehem?
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -5/+6Do you even understand how their Knesset works? If you did, you would not be asking such a question.
        • Poltras, on 03/01/2008, -3/+1Enlight us. Please do. I'd be surprised.
          • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -1/+3The Knesset has proportional representation...not districts like England of America. On the other hand, my question did not refer to the districts of Hebron...but rather were there any representatives in the Knesset from Hebron, Bethlehem, or Ramallah. Now I suppose I will find out there are, and they are settlers.
      • pintomp3, on 03/01/2008, -5/+1that ruins their whole "demography is destiny" motive. the only way to maintain it is through racial cleansing.
      • Reap, on 03/01/2008, -6/+2As I understand it, the problem is that Israel is a JEWISH state... not a state which happens to have a lot of jews who live in it. Meaning, to be a full citizen (and, I believe, vote), you have to be jewish. Even if they removed all the borders and said "yeah, fine, live wherever you want", arabic muslims still wouldn't be fairly treated because they would essentially be non-citizens.

        Incidently, Arab != islamic. Arab = from Arabia; basically saying someone is Arab is like saying they're African, it says absolutely nothing about their religion.
        • synaesthete, on 03/01/2008, -2/+8Your understanding is wrong, All citizens of Israel are full citizens and have full rights, including the 20% who are not Jewish.
        • flossdaily, on 03/01/2008, -2/+5You're dead wrong- Arabs citizens in Israel have full and equal status with Jewish citizens in Israel.
      • yonoz, on 03/01/2008, -0/+2Because it is against the will of the majority of the people who actually live here.
        Not that it means much to you.
    • legoalert33, on 03/01/2008, -3/+127) ????
    • airiox, on 03/01/2008, -19/+54How about we go back to B.C. then who's land would it be? "Israel" was taken from the Jews many centuries ago and has exchanged hands several times afterwards. The Jews took it from so called Giants according to the Bible. The Romans once controlled the land, maybe we should let the Italians lay claim to it. Give me a break. This is the same stupid argument for Mexicans taking back the entire western portion of America. We took it from them by force. That is how the world works. Sucks to lose.
      • martalli, on 03/01/2008, -8/+7Was it really taken from the Jews, or did most of the people in the land convert to Christianity and the Islam..as did most of the people in the Middle East in general?
        • pelosislefttit, on 03/01/2008, -5/+7Go look up history once again. You really cannot be this ignorant.
        • cababika799, on 03/03/2008, -0/+1Plus, to argue that point is to completely miss what airiox was trying to say. Land belongs to those who take it and hold it. You may find it barbaric, but that is how every single country on planet earth came into existance. Societies will always fight for what they feel they deserve. Although you may be more civil about it, think about what you would do if your neighbor just decided to take a hundred square feet of your yard for himself.
      • hillkiwi, on 03/01/2008, -4/+7Best post on this topic so far.
        • shaelen, on 03/01/2008, -8/+9Then why is it wrong for the Palestinians to shoot rockets into Israel? It's all about force, right?
        • petard, on 03/01/2008, -9/+3@shaelen
          Best post on this topic so far.
        • airiox, on 03/01/2008, -2/+12@ shaelen.

          If they actually have some sort of guidance for those rockets and are attacking government or military structures. Have at it. But I'm pretty sure they just light the match and let it land where they may. It's called terrorism and it shouldn't be accepted. Sure you can rationalize it by asking what is the difference, people die, but in my opinion it is wrong.

          For example. If I had grievences with my government and I felt that it was necessary to use violent measure to achieve my objective. I wouldn't just go around shooting random people and blame the government for my actions. I would purposefully attack high value subjects and targets that I feel are at fault for the disagreements I h