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44 Comments
- truthRises, on 10/12/2007, -0/+35Fraud like this is much rarer.
The whole setup is relatively fraudulent. You can change the outcome of a poll by simply changing the wording of a question. Notice that almost all poll numbers are published in the media WITHOUT the full question that generated the responses. If you could read what was actually being asked, you might realize that the numbers don't tell the same story as the story you are being told.
That said, all the reputable polling agencies will provide the full questions as asked to anyone who is interested. I highly reccommend checking them out if you have the time... very interesting to see how words are twisting poll results. - drsnooks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+19(sigh) It's relatively easy to make an opinion poll reflect any opinion you want - there's a famous episode of the classic sitcom Yes, Prime Minister which illustrates this perfectly.
The Prime Minister had just gotten the results of an opinion poll. It showed that 67% of the people would be in favor of reintroducing military conscription. Sir Humphrey asks his assistant, Bernard Woolley, to get another opinion poll done in which the results are the opposite. Bernard can't understand how people can be both for and against military conscription. So, Sir Humphrey demonstrates thus:
Sir Humphrey: "Mr. Woolley, are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think there is lack of discipline and vigorous training in our Comprehensive Schools?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think young people welcome some structure and leadership in their lives?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do they respond to a challenge?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Might you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes!"
Now Sir Humphrey does the next survey:
Sir Humphrey: "Mr. Woolley are you worried about the danger of war?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Are you unhappy about the growth of armaments?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think there's a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Do you think its wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes"
Sir Humphrey: "Would you oppose the reintroduction of National Service?"
Bernard Woolley: "Yes-- oh!" - perkonis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17A lot of the polls I hear on the local news don't even tell who conducted it. Much less anything useful like a margin of error or sample size. But the sheeple hear it on TV so it has to be right.
- perkonis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Fraud in an opinion poll? How long has this been going on?
- perkonis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Me? Not at all. I just think people tend to buy into polls like they're the word of God or something. It could just be that I'm cynical by nature.
- Coffeedemon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Opinion polls are garbage? If you had asked I could have told you that.
- elebrio, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11I generally think all *opinion polls* are full of *****. There are too many factors that could influence the outcome: intonation, the questioner's opinion, inflection, annunciation, order, time of day, whether they are calling cell lines or land lines, the lack of any sort of statistical break down of the participants. The stark fact that most polls are statistically invalid in the first place. I could go on for days.
- Onechrisn, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Because it makes people look at and digg the story.... an outrageous head line is key to getting eyeballs.
- butterpat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Pssst! elbrio, come close to the screen ... the phrase is "Hear! Hear!"
It's an abbreviation for "hear, all ye good people, hear what this fine speaker has to say!"
Occasionally, you can say "Here! Here!", as in when the fine speaker asks, "Where should I set down this case of beer"? - Buelldozer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Oh yes, because obviously the uber Fuhrer Bush is the only one to have ever done this, well him and his evil little minions anyway. :::rolleyes:::
Why exactly do you think the EXIT POLLS were so screwy in the 2000 elections? It wasn't ballot twiddling, it was the polling! EXACTLY as described in this article.
Put aside the partisan ***** for awhile and realize that this stuff is happening on both sides of the aisle! - nebrfan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5In other news, the earth is round.
- ILikePants, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6What nonsense.
Polls are not without their problems--problems like cell phone-only households, nonresponse, problems during the actual polling process (like interviewers, response scale mishaps), etc. But when you have a well-run, reputable study, you likely have some good data, even if the cell-only households aren't represented, and that can give insight into what the PEOPLE want, not what the politicians want. There are lots of ways a polling organization can go wrong, but if the researchers do their jobs, polling is very useful. Policy decisions could be made based on *gasp* what the people want. Go figure!
Yes, this PARTICULAR organization committed fraud. But other organizations have been running reputable surveys for decades, affecting the economy and health care. How else would we know that 40% of the population is without health insurance, for example?
In short, polls aren't bad. People RUNNING polls can do bad things. - brufleth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Sensationalism aside there are several comments above that point out that many things can affect the outcome of opinion polls besides the actual opinions of the populous.
- Jerrellw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Where in this article does it say that Bush had anything to do with the false information other than receving it? How do you know that the false information did not harm Bush?
- Corvidae, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yeah, but that was a case of an incredibly bad education system. (You know the one most of America uses...) Nearly all the women asked, simply responded to the word sufferage, without knowing it's meaning. Sadly I did the same thing here in my office. A couple women had the smarts to actually ask what sufferage was before answering. It was a sad minority.
- Bioshocker, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I look forward to seeing many intelligence-challenged individuals using this one bad apple as an argument for why all future polls that they disagree with are wrong.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I remember a few weeks ago, there was an article about a guy going around asking girls to support "end women's suffrage", and almost all girls said yes.
- pawchikapawpaw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3huh.
how strange. looks like a lot of people and groups used this company for their research. isn't it odd that no one bothered to look up this company's history, and just jumped in with the rest of the intellectually dishonest in pinning this as a pure republican/conservative/bush/hitler/chimpymchalliburton/rove/penguin conspiracy to commit fraud?
oh that's right. this is digg.
Partial list of Political, Non-Profit and Corporate Research projects:
National Education Association
Michigan Education Association
Democracy Corps National Survey
League of Conservation Voters
Campaign for America?s Future
Democratic Leadership Council
Center for National Policy
California ? Medi-Cal Beneficiaries Study
Sierra Club
American Public Human Services Association
PEW Foundation
National Democratic Institute
American Assn. of School Administrators
Kaiser Foundation
Planned Parenthood Federation of America
International Association of Firefighters
Human Rights Campaign
Kellogg Foundation / A National Survey on Leadership in the New Millennium
Citizen Action
American Assn. of University Women
American Lung Association
Communications Workers of America
Congressional Black Caucus
Environmental Defense Fund
Heinz Family Foundation
Hoffman-La Roch
Human Rights Campaign
Maine Voters for Clean Elections
National Survey of Women Voters ? Emily?s List
National Affirmative Action Consortium
National Democratic Institute
National Parent-Teacher Association
National Voting Rights Institute
NOW Legal Defense Fund
International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies
National Association of Independent Schools (NAIS)
American Federation of Teachers
Hospital Corporation of America (HCA)
Automobile Association of America (AAA)
American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME)
AFL-CIO
ECHO?Educational Concerns for Hunger Organization
Debbie Stabenow for US Senate (MI)
Jim Florio for Governor (NJ)
Hillary Clinton for Senate (NY)
Schwartz for US Senate (PA)
Lieberman Campaign (CT)
Anaskovich for US Senate (CT)
John Schmidt for Governor (IL)
Mary Landrieu for Senate (LA)
Gary Locke for Governor (WA)
Loretta Sanchez for Congress (CA)
Mary Ellen O?Shaughnessy for Congress (OH)
Shirley Franklin for Mayor (Atlanta)
David Bonior for Congress (MI)
Bill Luther for Congress (MN)
39th CD Anthony Pugliese (NYC)
Carl Stokes for Mayor (Baltimore)
Oregon ? Measure 92
General Motors (GM)
British Petroleum (BP)
IBM
2-Wire - Networking Study
Jarlsberg Cheese
Simplicity
Reed Elsevier Corporation - Restaurants & Institutions / Poultry Suppliers Study
Physicians Health Services / The Guardian
Greenwich Hospital
University of Massachusetts ? Faculty and Staff Satisfaction Study
University of Massachusetts ? Student Satisfaction Study
University of Massachusetts ? Alumni Study
Southern New England Telephone
Partner Needs and Concerns Organization
Tweed ? New Haven Airport Authority
source: http://web.archive.org/web/20041014215502/datausainc.com/list.html - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3No way, polls are BS? Say it's not true.
- dietprozac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3NO! Say it ain't so!! :-( Next you'll try to tell me there's no Santa Claus.
- pawchikapawpaw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2oh and in case it's not that obvious, this partial list reads like the address book of william clinton. sure there are republicans, conservative causes all around, but i suggest we tone down the rock flinging, shall we?
- peritonlogon, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7Why is "Opinion Polls are Garbage" in the headline?
This article was about specific polling contractors hired by political candidates, This is different from opinion polls done for the sake of news releases where accuracy is more important than the deadline. - rfugger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This makes me think of the story I saw recently about polls showing 70+% of Mexicans accepting the official results of the recent election... What better way to put down a popular revolution than to make revolutionaries believe they are a small minority.
- Koosebane, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I doubt this revelation will stop overeager, naive activists from flinging half assed poll data all over the front page.
- Jerrellw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2That was on the Man Show. It was hysterical! They even recruited a woman to walk around asking people to sign a petition to end women's suffraging.
- williamdyer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Governments lie. Ours, theirs. They all do, about almost everything, and almost all the time.
- xutopia, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Affect negatively one person's life (your own) by doing drugs and go to prison for 7 years. Affect negatively the lives of millions of americans and you only get 5. I love the justice in this country.
- spikes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The RIAA paid for poll/statistics companies oughtta be sued for fraud too.
- strangerzero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1In some parts of the world women still don't have the right to vote. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage#Women.27s_suffrage_denied_or_conditioned
- h00ligan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2the latest poll i took indicates a tleast 3 years ~ give or take $4 per vote
- Duffy40, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1When more than half the people realize that polls are being used to shape opinion rather than to determine it, than polls will be worthless.
So how many of you have flat out lied to polsters?
I have - Jerrellw, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The latest polls and surveys indicate that this kind of thing has never happened before.
- Jerrellw, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I find it interesting that some people see Bush as being behind this rather than being a victim of this fraud. Just read the story.
- bkemper, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1There is nothing in this article to suggest that the practice is pervasive. While I am no fan of Bush, and while there were too many independent exit polls (which have always been highly accurate predictors of the actual outcome) for a reasonable person to believe they were all fraudulent (yeah right, the political machines concentrated on monkeying with polls, did nothing to tamper with the actual vote, and then created huge amounts of falsified evidence of vote tampering on the other side), it seems that in this case it was just a matter of doing less work in order to meet a deadline or be more profitable or something.
Wow, that was a long sentence. Hope you all made it through that OK. - stonedgeek, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Impeach Bush yet? Nah, lets wait a a bit longer.
- there, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2 Unfortunately in our society people have a tendency to take one example of something and blow it way out of proportion. "the sky is falling... the sky is falling. As long as polling is not oligopolized by industry or government we'll be fine. Competing groups want to push different sorts of numbers because its been proven over and over people tend to vote for a winner. (one reason why many juristictions ban opinion polls during polling hours). This competition keeps most of these groups honest since consistantly weird numbers will make you stick out like a sore thumb. (With large samples it becomes mathematically impropable and is a big clue fraud is occuring)
By the sound of the monkier "Opinion polls are garbage" my guess is the person who submitted this article is a fanatic rightwinger pushing an agenda. By saying opinion polls don't matter... he's hoping to infer that Republicans are doing fine. Pretty sophmoric and shows you just how far the right is grasping for straws. They sense the end is near (and not soon enough if you ask me)
I really don't know what went wrong with these guys. I used to like the right wing for keeping their eye on the ball. Today they seem to be a bunch of assmaster Randists that behave almost exactly like communists. Word of warning bros. If one wants to have an ego the size of Texas you had better deliver the goods.
I get a feeling one of these days someone is going to do a study and discover that fanatic religious and political kooks share some identical psychological disorder that makes them behave in a closeminded collectivist fashion. They try so hard to "be good" then end up being the biggest selfish pricks.
If life has taught me anything is that moderation is really the way to live a happy life. Don't don't pretend you live for other people but don't live only for yourself either. Being too extreme either way may pay dividends on occasion but more often than not it's the sign of evil on the horizon. - bkemper, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1True, he is the anti-Christ. Or maybe Cheney is. Or Rove. Or Rumsfeld.
But that has nothing to do with this article about one particular polling company cheating their clients (which also included Lieberman and others). - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Jerrellw thinks Bush is a victim????? -- I think Bush is the anti christ... and I'm an athiest
That miserable little f+ck... that napoleonic twirp ... that smurf son of an amazon -- would do ANYTHING to advance his little visions.....
And I am a LIFE LONG republican.... never again. - gronne, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2I was refering to the headline from the person who posted this.
- chris9902, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5the damage has already been done by people like this a FOX news.
- jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3Gosh! Tell me it isn't so... This is what some of us have been saying for years, with conservatives crying BS.
Seriously, its rather ***** that people with certain political and ideological views would go so far as to influence events.
And Bush sits there chuckling: "Heh heh. I had no idea!"
Get real people. Open your eyes. There's been a rotten stench in the air ever since Bush set foot in the White House. Stop blinding yourself with wedge issues and partisan disagreements and start asking questions. Maybe this president doesn't represent your political beliefs and party. Did that occur to you? - perkonis, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3Ah, OK. Never mind then. Feel free to bury me.
- elebrio, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3Here Here!
- gronne, on 10/12/2007, -16/+2So I guess with your logic since Jeff Gannon was a fraud, all right-wing media is fraud.
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