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412 Comments
- booksnmore4you, on 04/17/2009, -32/+199Olbermann is still ignoring the GIANT ELEPHANT in the room of which Obama is all too well aware. His idealism obstructs the realism needed to view this whole matter with clear eyes.
If Obama or his administration goes after CIA operatives who functioned under these memos, he is *****. Because no president can be successful without good intelligence.
Like it or not, the CIA from the bottom upward has power to treat Obama like a mushroom: to keep him in the dark and feed him *****.
If that, then Obama will FAIL as a president on huge matters. Huge matters.
And kicking out all the CIA boys and bringing in new blood is untenable, like replacing all the scientists at NASA with middle school kids.
On the other hand, ***CONGRESS can go after the CIA***, and more so the folks who made these memos and authorized CIA operatives to act on them. In that way, Obama can be the Mr. Clean in the eyes of the CIA, as he simply must be. - inactive, on 04/17/2009, -19/+164If President Obama thinks this is somehow going to go away, he's mistaken. Whatever he has promised, won't matter now that these memos are out. People are going to be screaming for their heads. And now countries like Spain have, as Keith stated, the Holy Grail of documentation. Can you say, "The Hague?"
- Phylter, on 04/17/2009, -14/+105Gramma Sheila and I watched this. We agreed that KO didn't go far enough. WAAAY to easy on those *****!
President Obama swore to uphold the Constitution, the LAW of this land... - Dea7hleprachaun, on 04/17/2009, -28/+89My god. Brilliant words.
- CaptCarrot, on 04/17/2009, -9/+68No one expected the Spanish Inquisition.
- ppjsmith, on 04/17/2009, -19/+60Don't blame me I voted for Ron Paul!
- clvngodess, on 04/17/2009, -4/+44Yes. But the question is, WILL congress do their job. As evidenced so far, it appears their hands are just as filthy and Pontius Pilate.
- Anomaly100, on 04/17/2009, -10/+48It's somehow not surprising to me. I certainly don't condone this at all. It pisses me off. When I started hearing the mumblings of the GOP threatening Obama to not release the memos, I kinda thought there would only be a gesture given. Nothing solid, just something to pacify us. Well, I don't feel pacified.
All politicians are alike it seems. I just hoped President Obama was a little less alike. - chockster, on 04/17/2009, -11/+45I'm very against the methods used, but I don't entirely object to what Obama is doing. Partly because of what booksnmore4you says above, but mostly because these CIA agents were told, officially, that this was approved, standard procedure. I know "I was just doing my job" is a terrible defense, but if you tell someone something was legal, change your mind and punish retroactively you're setting a bad precedent.
The bigger question is this- why is everyone talking about the people who DID these actions? I want the people who THOUGHT THEM UP and APPROVED these rules put on trial and locked up. - inactive, on 04/17/2009, -7/+38Obama is trying to appeal to everyone and not accomplishing anything.
- Anomaly100, on 04/17/2009, -2/+32I'm still glad he called Obama on it. I wonder what FOX will be sayin...oh, neverrrr mindd! Those waters are just too murky for me...
G'night to you and Grandma Sheila!! - tkocf821, on 04/17/2009, -34/+61Fox News:Ignorant Right :: Keith Olbermann:Ignorant Left
We need some real balance - booksnmore4you, on 04/17/2009, -2/+28In the real political world of governing there isn't always the option of being an absolutist in one area. This is because there are tradeoffs in other areas that also have Constitutional implications.
Obama's not a King. Congress has sworn to uphold the Constitution as well...hint hint. - WAAngel, on 04/17/2009, -6/+30So, really? The CIA is too big to fail and too big to hold accountable? The three branches of the government are really the Fed, the CIA and the military industrial corporation?
I can't see the future for the mountain of garbage left by the Bush administration's manipulation of our laws. - Scrappy1850, on 04/17/2009, -3/+22i voted for bob barr
- mikeman8905, on 04/17/2009, -3/+22Spain wants to after the Bush admin. for torturing some of their citizens.
- ohplease, on 04/17/2009, -1/+19So what you're saying is that the CIA runs the country, not the president? Then it doesn't matter what the president does at all if he's just a figurehead.
- USArugula, on 04/17/2009, -10/+27books: I agree with you and then some. To add: the US has enormous social and economic issues we have to address right now. The only way Obama can push these things through -- the things I voted for him to accomplish -- is by using of his enormous popularity, not only among Dems but also among swing voters and even some conservatives. That popularity will drop if he personally goes after anything attached to the former administration, which will essentially castrate his ability to make sweeping changes.
I've told you folks before -- I'm an ardent Obama supporter who comes to the game as a left-leaning moderate. So I'm going to offer some advice to my much-loved, hard-left friends. You need to decide what's more important: healthcare, green energy, infrastructure and the middle class -- or taking down Bush. You can't have them both. - booksnmore4you, on 04/17/2009, -6/+22Not really.
I mean, Olbermann 100% nailed an ideal, fully pegged what is at stake in one of the options that faced Obama. But he ignored the elephant in the room.
Political decisions are all about tradeoffs between competing political interests and constituencies. The unspoken political constituency here is the CIA. Obama CANNOT go further than he did in the matter, unless he wants to make a choice to essentially end his presidency, and all that that will cause in its enormous ramifications. So between that choice and the choice he made, it is completely obvious he made the right one. - newbis, on 04/17/2009, -14/+27Has Olbermann heard of the Milgram experiment? It's easy to say he would have done better and that someone should be punished. It's easy to say "I was following orders" isn't a good excuse. He doesn't have to get his hands dirty. But is it fair to make Obama punish people who were just doing what humans do?
Olbermann is a jackass. - foucaultsvac, on 04/17/2009, -3/+16Billy's ratings say he's a little more relevant, right or wrong.
- PopcornDave, on 04/17/2009, -1/+14Oh please. Pelosi's only platform is blowing enough smoke up people's asses to make them vote for her, nothing more.
She'll talk a big game but she's not going to do a damn thing when all is said and done. - Alheithinn, on 04/17/2009, -6/+19Obviously, I think Obama is making a mistake. I understand political realities and trade-offs and so forth that make Washington go, but this is a huge mistake. Huge. And the next time around, the next Bush, will be even worse and more out of control than the last, knowing that he can break the law and violate the Constitution with impunity. We're heading down a very slippery slope and there won't be any going back. Learn the lessons of the Roman republic.
- Waiting2awake, on 04/17/2009, -5/+17"All politicians are alike it seems. I just hoped President Obama was a little less alike."
- And now you know you were mistaken. No biggie, just don't fall for the same in four years and we'll be fine. - norman619, on 04/17/2009, -3/+15That's politcal speak. You have NO idea what can of worms his aprroval for the prosecution would open. People in glass houses will never throw stones.
Translation: There will be no prosecution. - ctnp, on 04/17/2009, -1/+12I'm a little concerned about the apparent hypocrisy of WWII allies prosecuting Nazi soldiers who were just "following orders," yet CIA agents are indemnified because their higher-ups ordered them to perform what amounts to torture.
Of course, torture is not the same as murder, so I'm not saying we should prosecute CIA lackeys or officials. But at least pause to reflect how our decisions appear to the rest of the world. Seems pretty arrogant, right? - tkocf821, on 04/17/2009, -0/+11I saw that sticker on a car in Miami and LOL'ed but no one else got it
- clvngodess, on 04/17/2009, -2/+13And they've chosen to wash... I might add.
- clvngodess, on 04/17/2009, -2/+12Indeed. Congress did swear to uphold the Constitution. And as I recall there is a certain Pelosi problem yet to be dealt with. Let us NOT forget her platform: Impeachment.
- inactive, on 04/17/2009, -2/+12Professor Yoo, of Berserkley, is a candidate...
- aletoledo, on 04/17/2009, -0/+9The reason that Obama has to defend Bush is because he wants to continue the practices. Thats whats been happening in US politics for the past 30 years. One party vilifies what the other party creates and then goes about using these tools in the very same manner.
Many people want to believe that this isn't true. They watched Obama support FISA, the Patriotic Act and pay for the Iraq war. Still they want to believe that somehow his hands were tied and he had to go along to get elected. There was abelieve that once he was in office that things would be different. He'd somehow surprise everyone by making all these dramatic changes. Olbermann and many other liberals are now beginning to realize that this isn't the case. He obviously still holds out hope that sometime in the future, that Obama will change into the person they thought they were voting for. Sadly, the new leader is merely the same as the past 7-8 preisdents and isn't going to change course. - RatatRatR, on 04/17/2009, -1/+10You know how much support a third-party candidate could gain if we could all just get over the "don't throw your vote away" BS?
- inactive, on 04/17/2009, -0/+9That guy usually turns out to be the one stealing lunches.
- foohookups311, on 04/17/2009, -2/+11Real Change....yeah it's called get a third party in the spot light for once.
- IanGun, on 04/17/2009, -0/+8Like Waiting said, it was not legal. Torture is and has been illegal in the United States, written into our laws as well as our international agreements.
The Bush Administration is trying to go around the laws by having the torture legal memos written by John Yoo and Jay Bybee redefine the practices as "Interrogation techniques" instead of torture so they could use them. It's like a bank robber trying to get out of jail time by saying "I know I can't steal the money from the bank, but I can use "enhanced borrowing techniques" to empty out the vault..."
Obama is obligated to prosecute all the people involved or complicit in the torture of prisoners, end of story.
A breakdown of the issue
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/3/18/mark_danner_ ... - kaelyiesta, on 04/17/2009, -0/+8"If Obama or his administration goes after CIA operatives who functioned under these memos, he is *****. Because no president can be successful without good intelligence."
Your argument is invalid because it begs the question: is the intelligence provided by criminal CIA operatives good? We can see that it wasn't. Going after any of those who did wrong will not diminish our quality of intel. It will improve it. - KungFooJesus, on 04/17/2009, -2/+10relevant to people that are irrelevant is still irrelevant. It's like multiplying by zero.
Really I'm just bored with people who made their name bush bashing/ORLY bashing still making like its 2006. And now glenn beck with the obama bashing. It's so hackneyed. It's so boring and predictable and contrite and banal. But more power to them if they're making money off it. Just shows a sad state of intellectualism in our society. - mikeman8905, on 04/17/2009, -7/+15Obama didn't say that he wont prosecute bush CIA torture. What he said was that if the person who doing the torturing was going by the legal guidelines for interrogations at the time, then they will not be prosecuted. It doesn't take prosecution off the table. The people who ordered the torturing (and the people who went outside of the legal guidelines for interrogations) CAN still be prosecuted.
- akhomestead, on 04/17/2009, -0/+8I don't know if he's saying that but I will. Actually we are ran by the banks. The CIA works for the elites not Americas. People are patriotic to money and they have all of it.
- booksnmore4you, on 04/17/2009, -3/+11I think that's a premature judgment. Time will tell.
Keep in mind the Senate ratio. In a very major way, that is determinative of what Obama can and cannot do. The ratio will change soon enough, hopefully, and Obama simply must play chess for now to that end. - DOCNM, on 04/17/2009, -1/+9The Spanish trick is actually pretty clever.
Spanish law requires them to be tried unless their own county starts legal proceedings. The first, automatic, step for Spain will be to automatically emit an international warrant, which would surely be enforced across Europe (as it was the case with Pinochet or Sharon).
The only way to stop the Spanish to go after them is to start a trial in the US. - DOCNM, on 04/17/2009, -16/+23Brilliant and impressive analysis.
On a side note, it's good to see that Olbermann is ready and willing to pick on Obama. - deathyepl, on 04/17/2009, -0/+7Just thought I'd point out... AK is NOT Arkansas... it's Alaska. You're thinking Mena, AR. As far as I know, there is no Mena, AK.
- KungFooJesus, on 04/17/2009, -6/+13My god people are easily impressed.
- Glassmentality, on 04/17/2009, -0/+7I accidentally the whole country last night.
- nullvector, on 04/17/2009, -1/+8Sort of like the guy at work that everyone likes, but you really don't know what he does.
- scoottie, on 04/17/2009, -20/+27Olberman was fail at ESPN and he is fail now
- keegangrayson, on 04/17/2009, -4/+11seems to me that 4chan is better at gathering intelligence and dispensing justice than is the CIA/Executive Branch (which is only supposed to enforce the laws Congress makes)...
Obama could easily replace people at the CIA with people who understand technology better... intelligence gathering can be taught. - jakereilly, on 04/17/2009, -4/+11I guess you didn't get the memo that torture never really works.
How bout we start trying to make this ugly world a bit prettier, first by NOT torturing?
Crazy, I know. - MWeather, on 04/17/2009, -0/+7Yeah, last I checked the Army Field manual specifically states "just doing my job" is not an excuse for war crimes.
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