What is Digg?201 Comments
- tuna1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+91I disagree. Being a person who was a POW for a year and a half of his life and was tortured by the North Vietnamese, I'm sure he feels very strongly about this issue.
- blahblah, on 10/12/2007, -3/+87It's a sad state of affairs when taking the moral position results in a 'risk.'
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+60Standing up to tyranny is always a risk
- leobaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+37Does this really surprise anyone? The guy was freaking tortured in vietnam.
- TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -6/+39Only an ignorant person would say that McCain was out ONLY to get votes....
Its not like McCain has any personal issues against torture or anything....
I can't believe you idiots sometimes. - drlha, on 10/12/2007, -8/+39Or they run another charismaless, boring, horse face candidate like Kerry.
- RatherDashing, on 10/12/2007, -5/+35Only way McCain (or any republican in my mind) will win is if the Dems run Hillary. That would be a death sentence for them.
- repins, on 10/12/2007, -1/+31@tuna1 actually it was five and half years, but your point remains...and I agree with you.
- rtakach, on 10/12/2007, -5/+30you really think hilary will be a death sentance for the dems? it seems there are a lot of people who want to see her as the first female president...she's nuts though i would never vote for her.
- milkmage, on 10/12/2007, -2/+26@mohanned
you said "This article is retarded. How does standing up to torture risk his chances of becoming president? Unless the the US voter favors torture, I don't think this will harm him"
US voters don't come into play unless the Party nominates him as their official candidate for the Presidency. Piss of the party and you don't get the nomination... THAT's where the risk is. - harumph, on 10/12/2007, -2/+26i disagree with mccain frequently but i believe him on this. i think he can win on this if he is eloquent but succinct. not that i want another republican president ever but considering the alternatives, he isn't the worst pick ever.
- ayeroxor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24rtkach: "she's nuts though i would never vote for her."
Seriously. I liked her until she started going all nanny-state after the GTA hot coffee patch, trying to make new video game laws. That was quite revealing.
She was fine with a murderous, torturous game until it had CONSENSUAL SEX between TWO LOVING ADULTS?
And she's supposed to be a role model?
She lost every last drop of respect I ever had for her at that point. - overlordmead, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21He has to run a Republican gauntlet to get on the ballot, doesn't he? If he isn't for secret detainment facilities then he's for the terrorists, right?
- galore, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22What really gets to me is that in this day and age we are seriously considering (and this government is already performing) torture.
Torture !!!
Absolutely unbelievable. And from the morality brigade no less.
This is all so evil. Shame on all of you who even consider voting for torturers. Beware of anybody calling themselves "moral". - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19toture and rendition was the final straw to get me off the bush team.
Oh i had disagreed with many of his programs and his lack of oversight
but i didnt start dispising the man as evil before he fought for torture.
That is not american. And every interogator says isnt as effective as many of their non torture means, mainly because it is much harder to tell if someone is lying, when they are screaming. - ayeroxor, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21I tell ya what: I'm a non-party-registered slightly-left-of centrist, but I'd vote for him, especially considering the dearth of worthy, inspirational, charismatic democrats for the past so many years. He seems sincere, and unlike so many leading repubs, he actually cares about the constitution (which dubby swore to protect and then said was just a piece of paper) and the rights of the unliked, whose rights need more protection than those of anyone else.
The one greatest thing that makes America special, and used to make others look up to us, was equal protection under the law. We've lost that. We can get it back if we try.
Will we try? - Popdmb, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18@rtakach
A lot of Dems hate her here in NY..and being that she lives here...that doesn't bode well for her presidential aspirations. - omatsei, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17Thank god someone noticed that Hillary, the media darling of the Democratic Party, isn't terribly interested in free speech when it's something she thinks she can milk for votes.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14"US voters don't come into play unless the Party nominates him as their official candidate for the Presidency. Piss of the party and you don't get the nomination... THAT's where the risk is."
Which is exactly why we need to get rid of party primaries. They do nothing but end up nominating the most extreme party members who are voted on by the hardcore base voters of that party. Party primaries are why we've had such sh*tty candidates to select from over the last 6 or 7 elections. Hell, the last two elections are prime examples of why primaries are bad. - Nougat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15I'm extrememly disappointed in the actions of the current Republican administration, and I've never been aligned with right-wing politics. But I might, MIGHT vote for McCain if he runs for president, depending on who's running against him. And it's actions like this that make that more likely. This hardly risks his chance of winning the presidency; I'd say it enhances it. Maybe not as a Republican, they might kick him to the curb.
- seanherman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14"Democrats, hoping to avoid being painted as weak on national security, have stood on the sidelines so far. But the political cover provided by Republican leaders in the field such as Mr McCain and Mr Powell are likely to embolden them to join in opposing the White House proposal."
This is exactly the ***** I can't stand from my party. They don't even know what they believe in. Whatever vague ideals they do hold, they're always too concerned with their own status and positions to (heaven forbid) make a stand. This issue is politics at its worst, and precisely the reason democrats can't inspire voters.
As much as I disagree with a lot of McCain's politics, I think I'd vote for him if he ran, because he seems above the pettiness most of the rest of our politicians are anchored in. We need a thoughtful president that isn't going to stick to a party line for the sake of pleasing constituents, but who stands for what he believes in and is (most importantly) willing to participate in open discourse with the opposition, and adjust his thinking when a more reasonable idea presents itself. - crash999, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Ah yes but remember morality only counts when it applies to our kids and families. Those other folks are heathens and infidels.
Wait... that sounds familiar... - Dipsomaniac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11@ZeroG52:
"Political correctness" isn't why he'll be dugg down, idiot. It'll be because he (and you) are defending torture as long as you like the guys doing it. - theragu40, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Of course it's biased! It's also *informed*. How many other people have experienced torture, and know what it's like? I'd say he is more qualified than any other politician to tell us whether or not torture should be allowed.
- omatsei, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Actually, McCain is generally thought of as a RINO (Republican in Name Only) by the right-wing extremist crowd. In comparison to many "real" conservatives, McCain doesn't look so conservative.
- bemenaker, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I would vote for McCain for this very reason. Though, like everyone else in congress, he sat on his ass for too long before standing up and asking questions.
How it effects his chance of getting the presidency, is it will piss off the GOP heads and they won't give him the nod for '08. You know this has Karl's panties all twisted. - Hamletlere, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10@omatsei
So let's consider the following case as well...
"So, hypothetical #1: Your immediate family has been kidnapped by several people, who say they will kill them. You happen to catch one of those people, who knows where your family is being held, but after a short amount of time, those people will move to a new location. Do you: A) Torture that person until he gives up the information, or B) Just accept the fact that your family will probably die?"
So you grab the one guy, and start using car batteries to shock the hell out of him, or start cutting parts off of him, and to make the pain stop he tells you where you can find your family. Unfortunately, you made a mistake, and the guy wasn't related to the kidnapping at all, and he made up a story about where your family was to make you stop hurting him. How do you feel then?
For you, apparently, ends apparently justify the means. You do realize, don't you, that this is exactly the argument that terrorists make? The ends of getting what they want (and in my opinion, that's usually to make the US stop meddling in what they consider their affairs and/or countries) justify what they do to civilians. Tell me again what makes you better than them? - Alcorsu, on 10/12/2007, -9/+18It's probably a little of both.
- dsr15, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Uh, shouldn't all politicians make decisions based on what is right and not how it effects their election chances?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11The fact that there's not almost unanimous opposition to this monstrosity scares the hell out of me. This ***** goes against everything America is supposed to stand for. Anyone who supports this is un-American
- 10001110101, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11@TubaTechno: In a word, "waterboarding".
@zirconx: If it was just ripping up the Quaran, or not giving detainees darkness to sleep in, then yes, I agree - it'd be ***** to prevent that. However, the CIA is PARTIALLY DROWNING prisoners in an effort to get them to talk. Plain and simple: that's ***** up.
Remember what Nietzsche said "When one goes to hunt monsters, one must be careful not to become a monster." This is the slope that the US has started to slide down. - lemorex, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14good context, terrible background colour
- glock22ownr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9The scary thing is that if we are torturing( or as Bush calls it "alternative interogation" ) POWs what is next? Civilians? Define terrorist... If this administration is willing to bend the Geneva convention and international treaties ... what is next our frakkin Constitution... oh wait... they already did that with illegal phone taps and all the other ***** they do... We are losing our freedom, and sadly enough this is starting to remind of the scare tactics in "V for Vendeta". I LOVE my country and I HATE that this is happening...
- footprintx, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9There's so much politicking, money-grubbing, and posturing, especially in an election year. It's encouraging to see someone standing up for their convictions.
- Dipsomaniac, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12@angusbeef:
2 minutes of reading and I get to your "It's okay if we're not the worst" crap. Congratulations. - ogEmmet, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@rtakach
IMO if Hillary gets the DNC nomination the RNC is almost assured a win. Also IMO she's "damaged goods" and way too polarizing to have _any_ chance of winning the popular vote. This is something that I doubt has escaped the thoughts of the RNC (I'm sure they're hoping she gets the nomination). The DNC really needs a much more "middle of the road" candidate like Sen. Russ Feingold or Gen. Wesley Clark, USA ret.. The long shot would be Sen Barack Obama (or course there are those that wouldn't vote for him on skin color alone which is sad). - Duston, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11While McCain may be damaged by this for those on the "far right" I think he has little to fear from those of us in the middle.
- Corvidae, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Sun Tzu said many things. To my knowledge 'The Art of War' has never been wrong. Mainly because it's a set of generalized rules that anyone with common sense can see are correct. Wich probably also explains why Bush ignores them...
- mariod505, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12McCain is the only way I'm ever voting republican again...
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8That's what Sun Tzu said.
2,000+ years ago. And it's what, 2006? - TheTankengine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Just because a person is a Republican doesn't mean they have to be conservative on every single issue. I'm sure even Bush is liberal on some topics, though I can't for the life of me think of anything that he isn't ultra-conservative on at the moment.
- nocountries, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9@ZeroG52.
Your sexism speaks volumes, but, leaving that, and your failure to answer any of my post directly, aside, can I just say that
i) we DON'T KNOW what the CIA is doing to people in the secret prisons
ii) those kept there are all kidnap victims with no access to lawyers or a trial in which they get to see the evidence against them. How do we know that YOU aren't planning a terror attack? Why don't we torture YOU? (The way you go on about MEN all the time, I get the feeling you'd opt for a daily *****.) - Corvidae, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Criminals are not expected to maintain the moral standing of those who oppose them. Losing your standards and ideals to deal with them only destroys you, not the criminal.
How about if we have the police start using firearms to pull people over for speeding tickets? After all speeding isn't safe and can cause accidents. We kill hundreds of thousands of people on our roads every year. Shooting some speeders in the head should save lives right?
More likely it would end with dead cops after they shoot someones family.
Guess there is a reason to maintain a moral high ground... - LoungeActx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Waterboarding is just ONE tactic that we know of. And if you've ever seen the videos of what Waterboarding is you'd think it is pretty messed up and I'm sure you'd never want to go through that.
So to sit there and label our interogation strategies as just sleep deprivation and rap/heavy metal music would be naive. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7When did I say I didn't support any sort of interrogation?
Interrogation and torture are not synonyms. - Corvidae, on 10/12/2007, -0/+51. "Every sperm is sacred" was a parady, not to be confused with reality. Punditry I've seen from Euro and Asiatic countries generaly laughs at us for not making up our minds. Generally only forming a direct opinion about it when it affects the funding we're sending overseas. And then of course being against whatever took their money away or for whatever gave it to them.
2. Every country on the planet produces pornography, America is one of the most prudish countries on the planet. A lot of what most Americans call porn would be a typical day at the beach in most countries.
3. From personal experience, most Atheists have better morals than Deists. Must have something to do with having to rely on yourself rather than being able to blame some higher power. Of course that's just anecdotal experience. For a real comparison you'd have to look at the religious factions in our prisons as compared to the general population.
4. Most countries view Americans as brutish thugs with no sense of class or culture. Political correctness is the least we can do to be less offensive.
5. Ok, I gotta give ya the borders, that's just plain stupid. And I have no idea why most of our military training camps aren't posted near the borders, north and south.
As for real reasons the world thinks we're a freak show? How about invading a country without world support. Ignoring the baseless reasons given for doing it. Regardless of why we went into Iraq, we did it without the help of the rest of the world and against the judgement of most of it. While at the same time being warned by every country whose ever heard of Iraq, that going in is a quagmire. Then suprise, getting bogged down in a mixed insurgency/civil war and destabalizing the entire region. All while managing to allow Afghanistan to produce the largest opium crop in history.
And of course lets not forget the biggest screw up, where is Osama right now anyway?
Oh yeah, he's in an allies back yard. They of course have refused to do anything to help us because we've pissed on them and their help repeatedly. Pakistan is really loving us now, much more love and they're going to be sending us exploding flowers. - oneiroi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Even the worst criminals in the United States have rights. You could have extensive gang connections, serial murderer/rapist...it doesn't matter. You could have information on more murders, accomplices, future plans, whatever. Either way we figured, people have a right to defend themselves and to be treated as human beings, even if they haven't to others.
Why do we do this? Because we say people deserve to be treated a certain way. We're not animals, we're not cruel, we're a "civilized" society built on principles. So what happens when you start throwing out those principals? What do you say to the people who you are trying to "liberate"? Torture is only okay if you think you're the good guy? It's okay to mistreat fellow human beings if you feel like it's alright. Do you have a right to tell a country to stop torturing dissidents because of human rights?
Or once you acquiesce that it's alright to torture another human being...what's left?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" Let's keep a couple shall we? Maybe not treating people like trash should be one...not because they give us the same respect but because we hold the principals of our nation to be true.
Sorry for the lecture. - tehbishop, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@zirconx & zerog52: maybe you should let yourself be captured and then tortured for more than a couple years and you'll have the sack to be able to reply about what McCain has been through, without it you're just like the rest of us that have been in combat but haven't been POWs.... or you're just a civvie that doesn't know what the hell he's talking about... or worst just a sheeple for the neocons that can go pound sand.
- galore, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@ryskis
You are reading things in my comment that do not exist. I don't "pitch" myself as moral. I don't "pitch" myself as anything - I just commented how evil I think torture is and wanted to point out the contradiction that torture is promoted by the people who campaign with their "superior" values and morals. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10The only people supporting torture are pussified green civie politicans like Bush and co, plus a few military types at the bottom. The people opposed to it are the military command(you don't know this since they can't speak out), retired generals and basically anyone who has seen combat. These people know about a thing called karma - treat your prisoners badly and when you become a prisoner, the enemy can do whatever they want and you have no moral high ground to stand on. This is basic stuff that people got right thousands of years ago. They didn't call it the 'geneva convention' but ancient militaries did mostly live by a set of rules protecting prisoners.
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