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81 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+31Note there is no assault on casino chips, coupons, or airmiles.. which do have value to individuals who possess them. I support the Liberty Dollar, and once again re-iterate my distaste for the constant stream of anti-Constitutional crap profferred by the government.
- TaxationIsTheft, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21You *WANT* currency tied to a finite resource. It becomes resistant to inflation. If the resource is not finite then your holdings become diluted whenever more currency is issued at the whim of government. Rather than having to hand your earnings over to some profit taking investment scheme, which likely has privileged(lobbied) ties to government, you can set it in a drawer and have it appreciate. This only makes sense. As humanity develops our money should appreciate over time. A unit of stored work today should get me more next year because of increases in efficiency brought about by technology. Governments have managed to smash this natural process and it sucks. Consider this: It has been said(sorry no citation) that a really good suit has been worth about 1 ounce of gold for hundreds of years. But in various nation's currencies over time that rate is all over the place.
Don't believe me? Read what Alan Greenspan has to say in his essay "Gold and Economic Freedom" http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north204.html
He concludes that the US destruction of the gold standard was for the purpose of confiscating American wealth and freedom. - adamsetzler, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15The US dollar is not money. It's currency. It used to be money, but not since Nixon. Look it up, yo.
- bwisok, on 10/12/2007, -13/+27As a recent associate I've been reading the literature that accompanies the LD kit, and it is overwhelming that political freedom is a direct function of the honesty of the money system. The LD is revolutionary and salutary. Basically, it's going to save our collective asses from big government. You go, NORFED! Freedom in our time!
- MarkStrube, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15How is our current "legal" money not a money-making scheme by the government? If they need more money for their war or their useless gov't programs, they can just print it! Boy I wish I had that power! And everytime they put more money into circulation, that causes inflation, screwing us over even more.
I'd much rather have my system of currency run by a private business out for profit - that means they'll want to make their customers happy... it's all about accountability. The government has none. - dortdruben, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12The Federal Reserve isn't actually a part of the government--it's a private bank that the government authorizes to print money, and it borrows from them to do so. That's where your income tax goes--interest! Our monetary system isn't even backed by gold anymore! Wikipedia the history of the Federal Reserve Act.
- Muncher, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Hmm... it's a good concept, even if it is a sham. I just wish genuine US currency was still backed by something of "real" value.
- MarkStrube, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13mlorrey - It's up to the private business owners what currency they'll accept. It's perfectly legal to pay for items in any way you wish, as long as it's a voluntary trade of currency and/or goods. There's no mistaking Liberty Dollars for Federal Reserve coins unless you're an absolute moron who's also accepting Monopoly money.
Right now the federal government can print as much money as it wants since it's not backed by any real worth, except the gov't promising us that it is, in fact, worth something. This is a big factor to causing inflation. The Liberty Dollar is backed by gold, so it's already more legitimate than the funny money the gov't is shoving down our throats. - achoo5000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I declare that Canada has been counterfeiting quarters. Have you ever gone to the laundry, putting in quarters and one doesn't work, you look closer and there's a damn elk on it?!!? Then you remember the gum you bought and how the freaking clerk must have given you this fake quarter! It's pretty hard to tell the difference when you get a pile of quarters.
Damn elk. - dortdruben, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Um, the Federal Reserve system wasn't set up until like 1913, and the Great Depression was 1931-ish. Before 1913, there WAS a monetary system that served us well, until the Federal Reserve came along, which helped reign in income taxation (which isn't even constitutional), the Great Depression, and now our gigantic debt.
- TaxationIsTheft, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8>>Could someone explain how the "gold standard" isn't a profit taking investment scheme?
One difference between gold and your investments is that you simply hold gold and it's value increases. There's no special investments with banks and brokers taking a cut and also the investment is not tied to "irrationally exuberant" market fads. Further, many market style investments and their government fiat backing are looking un-hot as the US government debt hits 7 trillion dollars and the government's welfare state liabilities (SS obligations) are around 40 trillion. When the US gov inevitably defaults investments tied to their good word will be paper. Further, international demand for the US currency might become less as contempt for our actions and lifestyle increase. We may no longer be the big provider of technology and culture for the world. They've seen our stuff and are losing interest. American economic hegemony and technological prowess were brought on by unlimited freedom before statists took control. We've been coasting for decades. - mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Blaming the Great Depression on the Gold Standard is false history promoted by Federal Reserve bankers. What caused the Great Depression was that:
Britain retained its gold standard while abandoning credit limitations and adopted insane reserve ratios, resulting in massive consumer debt, and began its disastrous experiment with the welfare state, which it couldn't afford without massive dificit spending. When the stuff hit the fan, the guarantee by JP Morgan to ship gold from the US to Britain to cover them was not used as a chance to get their house in order, instead the British soaked up US credit as well, and essentially deflated our economy. Banks here called in loans to stock speculators to pay for the british demand for credit, and the house of cards began to tumble.
Then hackwrench says: "The government isn't? Even considering the messed up situation of the vote, the government still has to make sure it's currency has the appearance of being worth something. Also there is the limited ability to move person and investments out of the country. All of these factors adds up to accountability."
How is restricting the property rights of private citizens making government accountable to those citizens? How does making its currency have "the appearance" of being worth something actually make it worth something. If the government told you the sky was yellow, would you believe them? If they told you that believing the sky was blue actually caused the sky to fall once, would you then believe the sky was yellow? If the government held a gun to your head, would you actually see the sky turning yellow before your own eyes? Have some sense. - mhearne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I remember real money. I remember when they took it all in, and replaced it with chuck-e-cheese tokens too. They told us that it wouldn't make any difference, and that it would spend just the same.
Sure. Listen to the news or documentaries. From the History Channel: "It cost $16,000,000 to build the Crystal Cathedral. That would be $100,000,000 in today's money".
There seems to be a marked difference in "Today's money" and "Yesterdays money" Besides that, we are guaranteed gold and silver money by Article I Section 10 of the Constitution.
Federal Reserve Notes were never meant to comprise more than around 15% of our circulating money, and now its all that we have. Well, that and the car wash tokens.
Definition:
Fiat money, irredeemable paper currency, not resting on a specie basis, but deriving its purchasing power from the declaratory fiat of the government issuing it.
[1913 Webster]
I'm pretty sure the "Coin Shortage" is over now, which was their excuse for taking in the silver in the first place, and since the emergency has ended, they really don't have any excuse to keep issuing phoney money. - TaxationIsTheft, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Nixon didn't take us off the gold standard. Big myth. He only stopped redeeming foreign held US government dollars for gold. Franklin D. Roosevelt took the US off the gold standard. He actually forced Americans to trade in their gold for US paper.
- TaxationIsTheft, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Why would norfed want to accept liberty dollars in trade? It would be a pointless trade. "here, I'll buy a liberty dollar for....a liberty dollar? My old one isn't as shiny".
- stimcaps, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7If any Diggers have actually used a Liberty Dollar in a transaction, I'd enjoy hearing about it. What did you buy and where? Was it awkward or easy? Does anyone really use these?
- hackwrench, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORFED
- TaxationIsTheft, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8mavere: Online strangers? Do you know who Alan Greenspan is? Wiki him if not.
>>It's a fun hobby to trust random economic theories from online strangers, - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Why would anybody want to exchange goods and services for a piece of metal that has some real value when they can exchange goods and services for paper that has the "Treasury of the United States" on it and isn't worth anything at all? I just don't understand people.
- MarkStrube, on 11/11/2007, -2/+9fatdog 789 - what in the world are you talking about? Back off on the government koolaid, dude.
Only Congress can coin money, according to the Constitution (does congress run the Mint? I know the Federal Reserve is a conglomerate of private banks). There's no prohibition anywhere against alternative currencies, though.
Several times in the USA Today article on the crackdown, they refer to the Liberty Dollar as not being real money. Excuse me? Can you please define what "real money" is? I think real money is anything people agree to use in trade. How can they claim that anything you are willing to accept from me as payment for goods or services isn't "real money"? Are Federal Reserve Notes illegal? They're not produced by the Mint, nevermind not even being backed by anything. Can I accept Canadian dollars from someone as payment for goods or services? It's not produced by the U.S. Mint. What abount unminted silver or gold nuggets? How about those towns that issue their own local currencies? How about Disney Dollars? How about tokens? How about stores that create their own "dollars" in lieu of coupons or gift cards? I think any damn thing that two people agree to use as a medium of barter is money. Who is the U.S. Mint to tell me I can't trade something for "non-money"? Are swap meets now illegal? Is it now illegal to trade baseball cards? Can I trade a cd I don't care much for to a friend who wants the cd and who has a book I want?
How about money that doesn't even exist, like the various eCurrencies (or, for that matter, non-existant money created out of thin air by banks via fractional reserve banking)?
"The Justice Department has determined that use of Liberty Dollars, which come in varying denominations, "is a crime," according to the Mint, which issued a rare public warning Thursday."
Can the Justice Department just make a determination about what is or isn't legal when congress hasn't passed a law determining something to be illegal?
And how in the hell is their use a crime if both parties are consenting? Liberty Dollars even list the web site and phone number right on them so any moron can figure out how to contact them to trade their real silver or silver-backed notes for the ether-backed Federal Reserve Note.
On libertydollar.org, they have quotes from the Treasury Dept., Secret Service, and Federal Reserve stating that the Liberty Dollar is perfectly legal. I guess the government (and quasi-governmental agencies) can just decide things are legal or illegal on a whim. - Smoove, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@stimcaps
I suggest you look up "deflation" in a good text. Falling prices are not "deflation," and there's nothing inefficient about it. Has the decline in computer prices done a "sluggish" job of matching supply and demand? Of course not.
"There is a natural reluctance on the part of producers to lower prices and a natural resistance on the part of workers to accept lower wages."
Spoken like a true Keynesian. Everyone's reluctant; I'm reluctant to work for less than $1,000,000 per day. What sucks is that nobody's offering me that, so I can work for less or I can starve. I compete with other workers for jobs, just as sellers compete with other sellers for business. Competition has a magical way of sorting prices out.
"Also, computers decreased in price because of innovations in manufacture and design that directly improved their product while increasing production efficiency..."
How do you spell "duh"? Improved products and increased efficiency is one aspect of increased wealth. Silica that would have been left on the beach, or turned into blown glass, 100 years ago, and labor that would have produced a few wooden barrels and some buggy whips, now produces a lap-sized device with more raw computing power than the entire British secret service in WWII, or than all of NASA had in 1970.
That, my friend, is increased wealth. - cheapskate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Or phone cards, which seems to be an interesting under-the-radar currency.
- TaxationIsTheft, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6HackWrench: It is hard of know if food and clothing would fluctuate with the price of gold as you mentioned. Consider that the dollar is what is fluctuating, not the price of gold. Since food and clothing would be tied to gold the fluctuation might not exist. That's probably too simple and there's some of both. But think of this: the amount of food and clothes you can buy for a dollar has gone down drastically and consistently since the gold standard was abandoned. Gold has been in demand for thousands of years and in every civilization from tribal to technical.
- mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I've used Liberty Dollars a number of times. The first time was in a restaurant in West Palm Beach, FL, sitting at the bar. The bar tender served myself and my friend dinner, she paid the dinner tab (she asked me out) and I said I'd take care of the tip. She paid by credit card, and when the bar tender came back with the slip, I dropped the $10 LD piece on the bar. Makes a distinctive sound that nickle and copper and zinc coins don't. A sound of substance, as it rolls around. It was shiny and flashed in the light. The bar tender, an african american girl, said "ooh, thats pretty!"
I said, "Okay, you have a choice for your tip: you can have this real silver piece..." I then held out a $10 Federal Reserve Note, "Or this piece of monopoly money."
"What is the difference?"
"The silver piece is NOT "legal tender". See where it says "legal tender" on the Federal Reserve Note?"
"Yup"
Those words mean the government says this piece of paper is worth ten dollars, but that it isn't really ten dollars, its just a representation of ten dollars, and they've got a law that tells you that, and if they wanted to, they could order you to believe the sky was yellow, too, kapiche?"
"Okay."
"This silver piece is a privately minted silver piece. See where it says "1 oz .999 fine silver"?"
"Yes"
"That means its actually worth something without the government forcing you to believe the sky is yellow at gunpoint. Understand?"
"Yup, its like my jewelry, or my gold chains, like the difference between real jewelry and costume jewelry, right?"
"That is a good approximation. So which one do you want? Its entirely your choice."
"I'll take the silver, thanks."
"Deal" - kavaliro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I keep seeing all this static about whether it can be called a coin, every time NORFED comes up.
Coin:(from Webster Online)
1 archaic a : CORNER, CORNERSTONE, QUOIN b : WEDGE
2 a : a usually flat piece of metal issued by governmental authority as money b : metal money c : something resembling a coin especially in shape
There's really no reason it couldn't be called a coin, just not in the definition 2 a kind of way. Coin doesn't necessarily mean money. Just ask the military. They've been giving out "Command Coins" in force since the mid to late 90s, and no one has stopped them from calling them coins. (It seems the age-old practice of giving out Zippo lighters as gifts has been deemed "politically incorrect") - joybran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I've spent hundreds of Liberty Dollars on all kinds of things. It's especially fun to spend them in restaurants because you get into all kinds of interesting conversations. Not everyone takes them when I offer them, but nobody has ever gotten mad at me for offering them.
There have been three separate times (at a McDonalds, a Dennys, and a Subway) when I bought a meal for under $10 and ended up exchanging $100 in Silver Liberties for FRN's because the manager, cashier, or bystanding customers have asked me for them. At the McDonalds, four separate people bought them from me and would have bought more if I had had them.
I never represent them as legal tender or coins and, when people ask me if they are real money, I tell them they are real silver. I only get into conversations about money when the people want to talk about it. Sometimes I give out brochures or the little cards that explain about NORFED.
They are a wonderful, fun way to educate people about the nature of money. I live in California and I'm constantly amazed at how many people are disgusted with government, even in a socialist state like this. - sambtravis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength - MarkStrube, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9I don't understand how it's a sham? It's a private currency backed by gold and silver. If anything's a sham it's the Federal Reserve notes backed by absolutely nothing but our federal government's empty promises... which always end with inflation.
- Smoove, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@stimcaps
Um, you realize that money doesn't equal wealth, right? A finite money supply is not a problem: as real wealth increases, price as measured in gold go down. As an example, consider computers: the price has gone down so fast that it even outpaced inflation. Both the real and nominal price of computers has gone down over time. - MarkStrube, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Competing private currencies scare you, don't they? It's okay. Mommy government will make sure everything's nice and safe for you.
I don't know how to make this any clearer to you... competition makes things better. Private companies are accountable for keeping their customers happy. The government is not. The government can print as much money as it wishes, whenever it wants. That is an extremely dangerous precedent, leading to all kinds of problems, inflation being a big one.
Don't expect this to turn into a flame war, I'm just trying to plant the seeds of liberty in your head... because you'll clearly say just about anything to defend this government and its horrible system of currency. - MikeKnoop, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Hell the "dollar" has to be worth -SOMETHING-... I mean it is made out of some metal, is it not?
-Mike - mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Smoove,
"When I call it unreasonable, I'm not speaking as a regulator. I'm speaking as a fellow consumer, aghast at your decision. You're free to proceed despite my comments."
Are you, in fact, a regulator?
"Since I'm free to say things, I'll say you were swindled. But much more importantly, I'll say that the "education" NORFED does is really miseducation. Read "The Theory of Money and Credit" to learn about commodity money. NORFED's version is inaccurate."
I can easily say that someone who gives $20 of their goods or labor for a piece of paper that says $20 on it that cost only $0.06 to print is the one who is really being swindled. Firstly, the folks who issue you or your employer that piece of paper paid nothing themselves for it, they got it from the Federal Reserve's discount window for free, paying only the Discount Rate on its use. That discount rate, of course, is what deflates its value to you: inflation takes away your property and transfers it to the Federal Reserve, all for an investment of zero dollars by the Fed.
The primary reason the banks won't accept real silver money in exchange for FRNs is that by law, they are limited by the Coinage Acts pre-inflationary pricing as to what they can value it as in their reserve accounting. For instance, the Fed is restricted by statute to value gold at $42.22 per ounce, rather than the market price of about $575/oz today. If a Federal Reserve System bank accepted a 1 ounce gold coin, they could only count it on their books as worth $42.22 (this is a fact, I've read Federal Reserve audit reports). - Muncher, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I'm not saying that it IS a sham, I'm just saying that in the theoretical situation that this is nothing more than a money-making scheme (hurr pun) by NotHaus that it's still a fine idea at its core.
- joybran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@ Smoove
"NORFED charges a $9 seigniorage to mint a coin from $11-worth of silver. That's so unreasonable it goes beyond ridiculous."
What would you consider a "reasonable" markup? When the spot price was at $7.50 and producing the $10 round cost $9.85? How do you determine a "reasonable" markup when the spot price fluctuates between $10 and $15 an ounce in a matter of weeks? The one thing we know is that the spot price has continually been trending up as inflation drives the value of our fiat money down.
"the LD scheme depends critically on fooling people"
I've never fooled anyone about the Liberty Dollar. In my experience, most people who see them want to own at least one. How can you say it fools people when the website that explains everything about them is clearly printed on each Silver Liberty?
"even the "educated" buyers of LDs buy ignorantly, having no idea what's a reasonable seigniorage"
Who determines a "reasonable seigniorage," you? Isn't that determined by the market? Anybody can look up the current spot price of silver very easily. If they can get a similar, beautifully minted silver round for a lower price, they are free to buy it.
"Redeeming their own coins hurts their profit."
NORFED is a non-profit educational organization. Redeeming the rounds would defeat the educational purpose as well as the ideal of getting real money into the hands of Americans to reduce their dependence on a fiat currency that is bound to fail at some point, just like every other fiat currency in the history of the world has failed.
Just like I tell BigDaveDiode, if you don't like it, you don't have to buy/read it. But he keeps on trying to convince other people not to buy/read it. Thanks for the opportunity to explain why I believe the Liberty Dollar, like libertarian ideals, is good for America. - mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Sunshinelife:
Have you actually picked up the phone and called them? I had a problem this past week with the eALD interface, called them, and they picked up the phone immediately, not some answering system, a real person, and we got the issue taken care of. Turns out the error was on my part. I suggest you may have entered some improper information, but I don't know what you entered.
I went to the catalog link in the left hand column, and it took me to:
http://libertydollar.org/catalog
with no troubles. Suggest your link is wrong, assuming you are acting in good faith... - suldar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4In case anyone is wondering what exactly is wrong with the Federal Reserve I suggest checking out this link.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=federal+reserve - mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Actually, Smoove, I did some calculations of the original Coinage Act of 1792 requirements of 371.25 grains of silver per dollar, accounted for the fact that the government paid $0.90/troy ounce for ingot silver, resulting in a cost per US silver dollar of $0.69.
I then used a CPI Calculator commonly available on the web:
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
To determine what $1 in 1800 (the earliest it goes back) would be worth today accounting for inflation. The result was $10.84. So, a US silver dollar with 0.7734375 troy ounces of silver, accounting for inflation (all of which due to Federal Reserve fiat money since 1913) would have a face value of $10.84 today, but contain silver bought for only $6.975 by the US Mint. If the US Mint produced a $10 silver coin today, accounting for inflation to adjust Coinage Act requirements, would contain $6.37 in silver. If the US Mint were to produce a $20 silver coin today, it would contain $12.74 in silver. This is not much different than what NORFED is offering in the Liberty Dollar. - mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Not a paid shill. Not even a Liberty Associate or RCO. I'm a long time user who recently became a Liberty Merchant on my blog. I don't buy LDs as a commodity investment in silver. If I wanted that, I'd buy bar silver. LDs are not meant as a commodity item. Given your extensive and voluminous postings against the LD, I have to ask what YOUR agenda is. Are you a paid shill for the Mint? For another private currency group? You seem to be heavily biased, given you entirely ignore all arguments against your absurd claims that silver pieces or coins should have a face value equal to the metal content value. Nobody in history has ever offered a coin that had that, unless they were lying about the amount and quality of metal, so you are the fraud here.
- ToMaHaWk1187, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_money_masters
- Smoove, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6"I find it funny how NORFED refuses to accept payment in liberty dollars. Probably because they realize it's not legal tender either."
More accurately, they don't accept liberty dollars because it's counter-productive: they're in the business of selling $11-worth of silver for $20. They're not fools enough to BUY $11-worth of silver for $20! - joybran, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@ Smoove
"Are you paid to shill for NORFED, or are you really such a sucker as to spend $20 for $11 in silver? I'll be happy to charge you $20 for $12 in silver, which is just about a 10% better deal; you can use your usual patter with my coins as well as NORFED's."
You sound like BigDaveDiode on this issue, but I know you are a liberty lover. I don't understand why you are so violently opposed to the Liberty Dollar. It's totally voluntary, and everyone who purchases Liberty Dollars from NORFED is told not to misrepresent them as legal tender. NORFED is a non-profit, so nobody is getting rich there.
The markup on minted silver is not unreasonable at all. When NORFED started eight years ago, the spot price of silver was about $4.50 and the wholesale price was about $8.00 for a $10 round. Spot prices went up pretty quickly (because of inflation of the US dollar) and, when I learned about the Liberty Dollar, spot was about $7 and wholesale was $9.76 for the $10. Obviously, I didn't get into it to make money but to spread freedom or, as Bernard von Nothaus says, "return America to value one dollar at a time."
The reason for pegging the Liberty Dollar to the US dollar is to make them convenient to use. It would be ridiculous to have to negotiate every transaction with reference to the daily spot price, which only applies to large quantities of unminted silver. When the spot price got too high to mint one ounce for $10, the base changed to $20, and people who had them made some money. For a while, the markup was fairly high, but spot prices have fluctuated between $10.50 and $15.50 for the last year, so wholesale has also fluctuated. I think it's about $17.50 these days for a $20, not a big profit margin at all.
The beauty of silver is that, no matter what happens to the US economy, silver will always have value for all its commercial uses. I think the reason so many people who don't even understand the theory LOVE to get Silver Liberties from me is because they instinctively know that silver is real and valuable, unlike paper that is entirely dependent on the whim of the US government. They very often remark on how beautiful the Silver Liberty is, so maybe part of it is that beauty equals value.
I'm very proud to be a Liberty Associate because it means I'm doing something for the cause of liberty besides just talking about it. I think spending real money does a lot more for America than voting or writing letters to politicians who couldn't care less what I think. The more we can wean people from FRN's and get alternate currencies into circulation, the better for all of us. - mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I've emailed them about this.
It wasn't like they planned this. The new executive director of NORFED was only on the job 11 days when this whole controversy hit. Apparently the new US Mint director (a Bush stooge) has a bug about NORFED. - mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Mavere,
It really happened. Not condescension, though you are the one being condescending here... go look the word up in a dictionary, bub. - govtdoesnotwork, on 06/07/2009, -0/+1I got to see J.S.G. Boggs meet Bernard at FUN (a coin show in Florida during the winter that's quite popular). They *instantly* hit it off, and I'm not sure if what followed was a sale or a trade, but Bernard ended up with some beautiful $100 Boggs Bills and Boggs ended up with an equal quantity of Bernard's currency. If you think it's fun watching people try to pass Liberty Dollars, you ought to witness Boggs trying to pass Boggs bills.
Boggs bills are performance art. They're backed by nothing but the art, and the artist himself "spends" them at face value for items such as meals, collecting the change and the receipt. He then sells change & receipt to wealthy collectors, who use the clues to track down the waitress etc. who accepted the Boggs bill and buy it, usually for far more than face value. Governments all over the world hate Boggs' art money for the same reason they hate other privately issued money. Because it makes ordinary people THINK!!!!! - govtdoesnotwork, on 06/07/2009, -0/+1No. The difference is, you're passing the Canada quarters off as USD quarters WITHOUT wanting the merchant to notice. Bernard's types hand out literature, and almost always offer a choice of both USD and the privately issued currency. You don't want the merchants to think, or to notice the "money" when you're passing them Canadian crap. Bernard's types ONLY want that from them, because they think Bernard's stuff ISN'T crap.
- govtdoesnotwork, on 06/07/2009, -0/+1Uh, the Great Depression happened AFTER the Federal Reserve was formed, and the government's version of "the gold standard" wasn't ever really all that much of a gold standard anyway if you wanted to redeem specie for paper notes during a war. Plus distrust of government is HEALTHY, especially these days. The current unConstitutional fiat "money" system has done us well in the same sense that a big dose of heroin (getting bigger every day) does a heroin addict well. It seems to work fine for a while, but then... And that's why we see all these hysterical attacks on privately issued currency.
- hackwrench, on 10/12/2007, -14/+15Whoa! No more Kool-Aid for you!
- govtdoesnotwork, on 06/07/2009, -0/+1Let's say you're entirely right that NORFED (he doesn't really call it that anymore!) is inaccurate and wrong. Are they *legally* wrong to voluntarily exchange this stuff with willing other people?? Assume these people are not retards, and can tell the difference between a 1oz chunk of silver and anything issued this century by the US Mint, for the purposes of counterfeiting law standards.
- mlorrey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2moving comment to different thread
- sunshinelife, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3While I support the idea behind the liberty dollar I can not believe that they mess up their website when they have their 15 minutes of fame.
I have tried several times to order some libery dollars but the webshop does not work, there is a database error.
Error seen here:
http://www.libertydollar.org/ld//catalog/
Warning: require(includes/configure.php) [function.require]: failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /home/webuser/html/catalog/includes/application_top.php on line 29
Fatal error: require() [function.require]: Failed opening required 'includes/configure.php' (include_path='.:/home/webuser/html:/home/webuser/html/includes/SmartObjects') in /home/webuser/html/catalog/includes/application_top.php on line 29
It has not been fixed for several days, unfortunately they do not deserve success when they cant fix this, and perhaps that illustrates some of the value in a federal regulated mint, unfortunately. -
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