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- Napoleone, on 10/31/2007, -13/+296There's a certain breed of people who love extreme order. They yearn for it. They need it. It's the same type of people who banned chewing gum in Singapore. It's the Taliban. It's the Nazis. It's that teacher you're sure just needs a good *****, and she'll leave you alone. And I don't know to what degree such a thing is innate in them. It may be that these people were simply raised in an environment where their every move was prescribed and mapped out, and old habits died hard; so long as they were good habits, per the opinion of mommy and daddy.
There are no real rebels anymore. None that I can tell. No one puts it all on the line. We're all just a bunch of heretics with too little time to worry about anything beyond our immediate concerns; our jobs, our bills, our waning social lives. Do we even talk to each other anymore? It seems where there's no friendship, there are just shouts. No such thing as a polite disagreement these days. It's all shoot to kill. My way or the die way.
But, oh yeah, I know. We're the U.S of A. The top of the food chain. We're the tip of the pyramid and the world is the base. But when the blood behind most our luxuries rolls down and stains enough faces, let's not behave as though their rage was uncalled for and their hatred unexpected. The price of consumerism at the expense of five billion other people is a Police State. And for the gum banners of the world, that's precisely how it ought to be. - JackBurden, on 10/10/2007, -2/+81These authoritarian apologists just don't understand how to make frog soup.
You get some nice fat frogs. Then you put them in a big pot of cold water over the burner. Next you turn on the fire and wait. The water just feels fine to the frogs until they wind up unexpectedly dead.
That's how you make frog soup. And you are the frogs. Figure it out. - Dralha, on 10/10/2007, -4/+54In Amerika, every citizen is a suspected terrorist.
- GaiaAP, on 10/10/2007, -5/+50Standing ovation.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -2/+44"Questioning authority is a privelage, not a right"
Alright, now that my eyes are done bleeding, lets go over this. You're suggesting to me that QUESTIONING authority is a privilege. Not the actual act of overthrowing an unjust authority.... Questioning it. As in part of your thought process.
You're a troll. You're fake. Really. Stop wasting your time, get off the computer and go find a girlfriend. Then maybe you woln't be spending your time trying to get the most dugg down comment ever. - EntropyMan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+34A lot of people said 'what's the big deal?' when it came to light that the phone companies had volunteered our private call records to the government (i.e., without a court order). Well, this is the big deal. They now have a map of who's called whom, how often, and for how long. It's the ultimate 'social networking' app, only it's not opt-in (or out). It's not hard to turn that into a map of who knows who, and how close (in terms of hops) each of us is to a known terrorist.
We really have no idea how many thousands of people are in our circle of contacts, and because of that, how few 'degrees of separation' lie between each of us and Osama Bin Laden (for me, the shortest path is still through Bush: Friends->Friends->Bush->Bin Laden Family->Bingo!). - Kevin108, on 10/10/2007, -1/+33I've always valued personal privacy. Security is all good and well as long as it doesn't become an inconvenience. Even when I was in high school, I detested being wanded with a metal detector and having my backpack rummaged through. They only did that after a fight. The only thing they ever found on anybody was things like pagers (we didn't have cell phones yet) and CD players. Way to go! That was easily bypassed. There was always an open door to the school somewhere else. I never had anything to hide, I just didn't care to submit myself to a search. It was a public school. I was on public property. What right did they have to detain me and search me without accusing me of a crime?
"It's for the safety of the children!"
I don't know anybody who hurt themselves or anyone else with a Discman. I was less mature then, sure, but I figured that in a building that held over 1,300 people daily, if anything did happen my odds were pretty good.
Fast forward a few years to September 11, 2001. Bush creates Homeland (Harassment) Security and the (Invasion of Privacy) Patriot Act. Now we all have the privilege to experience the same violation of rights every time we fly! It's ridiculous to have to show ID for a domestic flight. It's insane to have to have a passport now to return from Mexico. News flash - the airports are NOT the hole in the border that should concern us!
It has become commonplace for the various agencies that now compose the US equivalent of the gestapo to demand to see our papers. A lot of people like this "feel-good" security. I think it's a waste of time and is more dangerous to our national security than terrorists. Since 1903 only two planes have been flown by terrorists into buildings. Again, I think my odds are pretty good.
If we are no longer a free people, then what do we have? History repeats itself. When powerful nations have failed, they were usually their own undoing. Our Founding Fathers understood this and frequently issued their warnings.
Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Thomas Jefferson said, "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
The whole point of it has been because there's an article Ron Paul wrote in 2004 I want you to read. Ron Paul is a Libertarian that's running for Republican nomination and I feel he is the man who could turn this country around. Our tax dollars are squandered by pork barrel politics and a massive and unaccountable bureaucracy. Smaller government, lower spending and restoration of individual liberties are badly needed. If elected, Ron Paul may not be able to deliver everything in his time, but I'm certain he'll do his best.
Now, the article I want you to have a look at can be found at http://femacamper.wordpress.com/2007/08/31/it-cant-happen-here Here's an excerpt.
If you don't have anything to hide, they ask, what are you so afraid of? The answer is that I'm afraid of losing the last vestiges of privacy that a free society should hold dear. I'm afraid of creating a society where the burden is on citizens to prove their innocence, rather than on government to prove wrongdoing. Most of all, I'm afraid of living in a society where a subservient populace surrenders its liberties to an all-powerful government.
- Ron Paul - Tarl, on 10/10/2007, -0/+18Every once in a great while there is a post on this great wide internet that has me printing it out and sticking on the refrigerator at work with a magnet along with the countless other stick ems about this and that. Yours is one of them.
- BelXul, on 10/10/2007, -5/+22Before anyone starts slinging the "RawSewage" type comments, look closer. This originated in the NY Times.
- Wolfboy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+17Skip the blog, read the source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/washington/09fbi.html - hiphoc, on 10/10/2007, -1/+17Who the ***** is jmpeagle? Stalin? I haven't heard ***** like that since I listened to this album called Poetic Ramblings of a Stalinist During the Red Scare. I really hope u dont mean what u said, if you did, i hope you dont live in the US. We have enough fascists, dont need any more collectivists left or right. We need constitution by the people.
- scottious, on 10/10/2007, -0/+15Ha luckily I have no friends.
- otakukampf, on 10/10/2007, -1/+16Don't trust the government or for that matter anyone that has power over you. If you blindly trust someone that can con you, he eventually will.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -0/+13No one ever seems to get that. I mean, it's not just "I have nothing to hide," it's this whole business of being treated like a criminal with no suspicion or evidence that a crime has even been committed, much less one that I'm responsible for.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -1/+14This is precisely why I communicate thru smoke signals.
- thespace2, on 10/10/2007, -1/+13@warsql - I could have sworn it was because they don't like our freedoms; aka - cause we oppress and kill muslims for oil; aka - consumerism; aka - modern luxuries for spoiled Americans.
- Urusai, on 10/10/2007, -0/+12If all these terrible liberal atheists are so bad, why don't you leave? There are plenty of countries willing to satisfy your craving for authoritarianism.
- atheinostic, on 10/10/2007, -3/+14http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_Authoritarianism
- AxeSwinger, on 10/10/2007, -0/+11You need to read Bin Laden's manifesto and other writings. I'm not suggesting it justifies radical Islam, it's not conversion or suppression of our belief systems they're trying to change. It's occupation; part of the issue is that we are a non-Muslim country but the complaint is a non-Muslim country is occupying a portion of they're holy lands and he considers that an affront to his faith.
- navitatl, on 10/10/2007, -2/+13I think (read:hope) that jmpeagle's comment is a joke.
- cindylauper, on 10/10/2007, -8/+18Liberty and Freedom are so like 1960's hippie crap...what the world needs now is big brother and corporate America in control. Don't you know they're the only ones that can protect us from ourselves (a.k.a the terrorists)
- cindylauper, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9And apparently they had an inability to detect sarcasm as well
- BigGrassMan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+10That may be the best, most thought out post I have ever seen on here! Bravo!
- Vash265, on 10/10/2007, -2/+11"There's a certain breed of people who love extreme order. They yearn for it. They need it. It's the same type of people who banned chewing gum in Singapore. It's the Taliban. It's the Nazis. It's that teacher you're sure just needs a good *****, and she'll leave you alone. And I don't know to what degree such a thing is innate in them. It may be that these people were simply raised in an environment where their every move was prescribed and mapped out, and old habits died hard; so long as they were good habits, per the opinion of mommy and daddy."
That certain breed of people turns out to be the vast, and I do mean VAST, majority of everyone. Humans yearn to be to told what to do, and not only do we seem to like it, but even if what we're being told to do grinds against our very ethics, we'll do it anyway. Not because the people telling us to do something are better, or more trustworthy, but simply because they have some, even fake or meaningless, authority. As much as I know you want to believe you don't fall into that group of people, the odds are, you do. The odds are, nearly everyone responding to this message, myself included, wouldn't help a woman being raped if there were more than 5 or 6 people watching, and even then, it's tough to know. The Nazis were simply following commands, looking to not be admonished for being different or standing up to someone. They got caught in the wave of patriotism and social togetherness. We've always had a shortage of people who were brave enough and sensible enough to do the right thing in any situation. It's not a new development. It's not that these people love extreme order, I dare say, most people, if not all, shrink at the thought. But there are those who impose their authority, and misuse it, and no one acts against it because no one else has acted first. Don't write like it's THEIR problem. It's everyones problem, and there probably isn't a lot we can do about it. - hitmonval, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8Dude, that was incredible. If it was original you should write some more.
- Sil369, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8"We really have no idea how many thousands of people are in our circle of contacts, and because of that, how few 'degrees of separation' lie between each of us"
I wonder if the people who are actually wiretapping and seeing those phone records ever visit Digg/web 2.0 sites and make posts for/against it. I mean, all we think about when wiretapping is brought up is Bush Bush AT&T Bush. Who are the rest of these people that are involved with it? How many are there and can we trust them with our data? Are THEY being wiretapped too? Or are they exempted? (ie, BUSH) - EntropyMan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8Well, you can digg the other submission if you prefer. It turns out it was first anyway, but I think this description better captures the threat and violation.
- MacEnvy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9Gee thanks. Your personal anecdote that has no bearing on the topic of this discussion sure made me feel better.
- gleongelpi, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8The Soviet Empire had one of the most far-reaching system of spying on the general population, yet it was unable to control the people except through brute force and without consideration for whether they had the right persons or not. This is a nightmarish waste of money that will lead no where because someone still has to read or listen to everything to determine if someone is a terrorist or sympathizer. But that is impossible, so, in order to convince their superiors that they are doing the job right, underlings without ethics will bust anybody and fabricate whatever evidence is lacking around the few tidbits that should mean nothing. Persecution of this nature ultimately leads to the destruction of a country. Think, for example, of how many members of the "Justice" system in Durham, North Carolina went along with whatever Nifong wanted to do. In the end, millions were wasted over a falsehood. It doesn't matter if we are talking about terrorist or crime, law enforcement people will be scared to not show a result and please their superiors, so, in order to look good, they will frame anybody on the flimsiest of reasons.
- jkramlich, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7I like to say this to authoritarian apologists:
me - "You don't do anything illegal in the shower, do you?"
them - "No."
me - "Well then you don't mind me watching you while you shower just to make sure." - Valarauka, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7Good choice. Other alternatives include carrier pigeons (long range), semaphores (line of sight), and plastic-cup-telephones (for ultrasecure short-range transmissions).
- EntropyMan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7Here's the direct link: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/washington/09fbi.html
Looks like it was submitted first, but as usual, didn't show up for me till hours after I submitted this one. - noumuon, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7from various psychological studies, i'd have to conclude you're correct. approximately 60% of the population will obey authority figures and social expectations even if they go against their own, individual morals.
- withears, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7What statements in the article do you disagree with?
- AxeSwinger, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7How so?
- carpespasm, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6well anyone in good graces with the whitehouse seems to be exempt from anything else they want to be, so why the ***** not?
- p0tent1al, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6as soon as he mentioned the child neck snapping, obviously sarcasm
- sharpfork, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6Don't feed the right wing group-think troll.
- EntropyMan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6The government has already consumed issued patents that they felt had military significance. Those [consumer] products never saw the light of day, and there's some question as to if/how the inventors were compensated (companies, yes; individuals, not so much).
The biggest threat, apart from the general invasion, is political. History shows that the powers in power like to use whatever spying they can get away with to hold onto or increase their power. So spying on the opposition is the most likely transgression, as it was with Watergate. - sharpfork, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6Napoleone- you hit the nail on the head. Excellent comment.
- Dundasbro, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6Ooooooo your troll-fu is moderately strong my friend, but I shall not be sucked into it.
- aerogant, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5A large part of it is that people don't want to be responsible, so they shift responsibility and the power that comes with responsibility on to others. If they do something and it goes wrong, they can say that an authority told them to do it. Ultimately what happens is that the responsibility and power gets shifted to an authority that is hard to hold accountable, and so people are free to be irresponsible for their actions. An example is a mob of people, where people in a mob shift responsibility to the mob by saying "every one else was doing it".
- goffy59, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Quoted!
- BlacklabelSAR, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Liberals like our Founding Fathers?
- BigGrassMan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6That's the beauty of America, we don't have to leave! We can protest and disagree and riot if we need to. We, the people, hold the ultimate power in this country. Why do you think, as Napoleone noted above, we are so obsessed with our lives? They, the Gov, has put us into a position that makes it way too risky to rebel. They have made slaves of us, the working class. We will rise up one day and it will be like something you've never seen before.
- lazyfisherman, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Do you have any idea how many times the Police screw up and throw innocent people in jail? Law enforcement people make mistakes, big mistakes that cost people their lives. That's why you should be worried, because the wiretap may lead them to think you are involved, even if you're not... or maybe that just don't care and you've been selected to "take one for the team" and sacrifice your freedom for the "good" of the State. There's so many people, so many potential threats, the very profitable prison industry is growing and growing, it must be tempting for big brother to just arrest everyone involved and sort it out later.
- Pritchard, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5That was one of the most well-written comments I've ever seen on Digg.
- latpack, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5The Stanford Prison Experiment is a fine example of what you're saying. Its true, a lot of us lack the courage of our convictions enough to affect any real change in our lives. So we leave that decision up to others.
- BlacklabelSAR, on 10/10/2007, -0/+51. How would you know if the poster was NOT there? She could be in her 50's
2. Do you understand what sarcasm is?
3. The fact that the 60's was a "freer" time, is EXACTLY THE POINT.
Please get your mind tuned up because we need you and ALL AMERICANS that value their freedom to be vigilant. - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4A previously dugg story: http://digg.com/political_opinion/The_nothing_to_hide_argument
A very interesting read. -
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