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- SheilaNoya, on 05/16/2008, -14/+114I'm always amazed at how the current batch of Republicans have completely rewritten history. Ronald Reagan was brave enough to meet face-to-face with our so-called "enemies" and he is considered a foreign policy hero to the rightwingers.
However, now they claim anyone who talks to people we don't like is "appeasing the enemy". Here's what's REALLY happening:
- Bush is too much of a coward to face his adversaries
- Bush is too dumb to let them debate an issue with him (even in private)
- Bush is embarrassed, because he already insulted everyone he doesn't like and called them "evil"
McCain has chosen to mirror Bush's policies of not meeting with our enemies. That's the OPPOSITE of what Ronald Reagan would have done. The Republicans have lost their way. - inactive, on 05/16/2008, -14/+72McSame is about as good at history as our present idiot in chief:
“Yes, there have been appeasers in the past, and the president is exactly right, and one of them is Neville Chamberlain,'’ Mr. McCain told reporters on his campaign bus after a speech in Columbus, Ohio. “I believe that it’s not an accident that our hostages came home from Iran when President Reagan was president of the United States. He didn’t sit down in a negotiation with the religious extremists in Iran, he made it very clear that those hostages were coming home.'’ - geneikillua, on 05/16/2008, -30/+66Inaccurate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair#Ho ...
Reagan did not negotiate with Hezbollah when they took six Americans hostage. What he did do was authorize negotiations with a moderate Iranian faction, and he didn't even do that until he saw Israeli intelligence that that faction had itself fought against terrorism. McCain didn't say that Reagan had never negotiated with any Iranian, he said that he did not sit down and negotiate with religious extremists. The information the Daily Kos article quotes denies the story's own veracity.
If I'm wrong about the history, then digg me down--but don't do it just because you think anything that's not anti-McCain is automatically bad. Groupthink=bad. I personally think refusal to negotiate one on one is bad foreign policy, but I also dislike misuse of history and overbloated claims like if McCain got this one fact wrong he has a "complete lack of knowledge" regarding foreign policy. - PhilLesh69, on 05/16/2008, -1/+34Well, he's sorta right. Reagan didn't sit down in a negotiation with the religious extremists in Iran.
Turns out it was Robert Gates, Richard Secord, William Casey, Oliver North and George H. W. Bush who were involved with the actual negotiations in Madrid and Paris with Iranian officials, in order to prevent the release of hostages until after the elections.
They feared that if the hostages were released before the elections, it would boost Carter's popularity, and possibly allow him to win reelection.
The coup de grace was having the hostages released only minutes after Reagan completed his oath of office on inauguration day. That was a stroke of genius on somebody's part. - inactive, on 05/16/2008, -0/+29In 1986, President Ronald Reagan sent a personally inscribed Bible and a key-shaped chocolate cake—along with offers of millions in military hardware and a new strategic relationship—as a gesture of goodwill to Iran’s Islamic Republic, then led by Ayatollah Khomeini.
- foreignwarren, on 05/16/2008, -11/+37the ***** McBush gets away with is UNREAL.....hope the entire Democratic party raises a huge stink about his stupidity and forces the MSM to talk about this! They should devote some time in every single media appearance to switch to this topic......
BTW ...what a great diary on Kos... - Dumbledorito, on 05/16/2008, -6/+30So was selling missiles to Iran was "negotiation," too?
- smacksaw, on 05/16/2008, -4/+27So what McCain is saying is that the mere election of Ronald Reagan so scared Iran that they freed the hostages without the need for any negotiation.
- swrostmore, on 05/16/2008, -7/+30The article you link to denies your own post's veracity. You're referring to the original plan, which was then modified and approved by Reagan to include the sale of arms directly to the Iranian government. Reagan also authorized the "gift" of missile components to the Iranian military in exchange for assurances that Hezbollah would not execute hostages, again according to the wikipedia entry you link to. If that isn't "negotiating with our enemies" then nothing is.
- manicmarvin, on 05/16/2008, -3/+23"Ignorance is Strength."
- inactive, on 05/16/2008, -0/+19A treasonous stroke of genius on someones part. Interesting that those guys were running the show that early. I think the gold commission was the last of Reagans ideas to see the light of day in his eight years in office. The straussians have done a good job with the Reagan Mythology though.
- Theod48, on 05/16/2008, -3/+18didn't Reagen sell a bunch of weapons to Iran, hence the
iran-contra scandal ahem! thats above and beyond just simple negotiations....oy - PhilLesh69, on 05/16/2008, -0/+13No doubt.
But don't forget that Richard Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were considered the "***** crazies" during even Richard Nixon's administration, screaming about how the soviets had invisible and undetectable submarines. - inactive, on 05/16/2008, -2/+14Once again, the mass media totally ignores that McCain has demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge about foreign policy and American history.
However, tonight on FOX, MSNBC, and CNN 34/7;
O.J. confesses
Obama's pastor's comments
New juicy pics of Dem Senator's whore
Guy sleeping at Obama speech
Hillary's fake country accent
Hulk Hogan's wife files for divorce
Polar Bear cubs are doing well
Cat survives 3 weeks crossing ocean
Large men in spandex die due to steriod abuse
Runaway bride's former groom reportedly marries another woman
Buddhist dog prays for worldly desires
Camels line up for Gulf beauty contest
Pitbulls get second chance
Lindsay Lohan's drug problems
Redneck Skank still missing in Aruba
Martha Stewart, Back in Action
Duke Lacrosse lawsuit
Anna Nicole's corpse
ACLU courting Pedophiles
Missing blond, blue-eyed British baby
Shark and Alligator attacks on the rise in Florida
McDonald's courting designers for hipper uniforms
Heath Ledger, still dead
..and the worst thing about this is good luck trying to talk about this with anyone, American Idol was on last night. - sovereign3, on 05/16/2008, -4/+16You can call it appeasement, negotiation, or whatever. But the fact of the matter is, Reagan did authorize the sales of weapons to a sworn American enemy. Weapons were sold to the Iranians via the Israelis in order to negotiate a deal to free the hostages. I'm not sure which "moderate Iranian faction" you're referring to; this deal was done directly with the Iranian government.
To Reagan's credit, this was a list ditch effort. Previous plans to free the hostages failed and Reagan was looking weak against a revolutionary government. The deal was never meant to go public and were it not betrayed by the avarice of an Iranian arms dealer, it could have actually worked. - mayerf1, on 05/16/2008, -3/+14McCain-iac, Like Reagan did, is playing the "dumb-card" again.
- cambob76, on 05/16/2008, -2/+13I like the name "McBush". Pretty much sums it all up.
- seso, on 05/16/2008, -0/+11In all honesty, I think it's closer to "appeasement" ;)
- geneikillua, on 05/16/2008, -1/+11Reagan was certainly partially responsible, but McCain's analysis of it seems inaccurate based on history. However, why must I condemn him for this? Why this trend in American politics that any flaw or error needs to be "condemned"? Is this new politics or just very old politics? Mistakes should be called out for what they are, but let's not go overboard.
- queenstarsha, on 05/16/2008, -0/+10yes, he is saying that. and it is *****.
- inactive, on 05/16/2008, -1/+10If you want another four years of your country run by a dumbass with no understanding of the important complexities of foreign affairs and who blunders constantly into things in a mindlessly aggressive, thoughtless manner, then vote McCain.
If you want to avoid that and try getting out of the ***** mess, then vote for anyone else. - AnarchoGoth, on 05/16/2008, -1/+10Actually, I think that was the October Surprise.
Iran-Contra came a little later, although it is very much related.
Or is that nit picking?
Anyway, read October Surprise by Barbara Honegger. - hinchb, on 05/16/2008, -6/+15The media loves him of course they won't report any of this.
- pintomp3, on 05/16/2008, -1/+10republicans have been rewriting history when it comes to reagan for years.
- Meekus, on 05/16/2008, -3/+11Part of me is getting sick of this election already. The prospect of voting for Dumb, Dumber, and Dumberest is just not appealing to me.
- nick111, on 05/16/2008, -4/+12It's not really a blunder because the sorts of people who will vote for McCain are the same people who voted for Bush. Twice.
Facts don't matter. Moral framings matter - eg: "McCain is weak on facts". The details aren't important. - inactive, on 05/16/2008, -11/+19It's amazing to me that these bastards never got indicted for this. They manipulated the 1980 election deliberately to their nefarious ends, once they convinced Reagan to pick ol' Skull & Bones' Herbert Walker as his vp. And lo; within a year Reagan gets shot, and almost died...it wasn't enough to get Bush I into the oval office, but it did send a message to ol' Ronny that he better play The Game. And play it he did! Into the sunset of Alzheimer's disease, as he swore to us those immortal words: "I don't recall." Referring to Iran-Contra. Of course he wouldn't recall anything, Bush was doing all the work.
- sovereign3, on 05/16/2008, -2/+10Do you really believe Reagan was oblivious to North's plan? This was an executive order signed by the president. North was acting on Reagan's authority.
I agree with the above. This murky distinction you feebly attempt to draw between Iranian gov't and Hezbullah is tenuous at best. They were one in the same and we knew that at the time. Why do you think this deal was done by proxy with funds that were acquired from a third-party in Costa Rica? - inactive, on 05/16/2008, -6/+13This guy is having senior moments already. Did Joe lieberman correct him this time?
- TripleAStacked, on 05/16/2008, -3/+10Obama is going to break McCain down during their debates.
- noangelcame, on 05/16/2008, -0/+7Damn those CIA bastards.
- inactive, on 05/16/2008, -0/+7He wasn't really all that good an actor. B-movies all the way.
But he could work a crowd. That's basically all he had. They call him the great communicator basically because he could put across such a load of ***** and people swallowed it because of his Hollywood charm. - inactive, on 05/16/2008, -1/+8Straussian mythology at its best. Read Michael Ladeen, on Machiavelli and modern leadership. They're PR men by birthright. It is very strange to have lived through that time and see what they've done with it.
- ShellShock11, on 05/16/2008, -7/+14Things like this are exactly why Obama will be elected president in 2008.
- inactive, on 05/16/2008, -4/+10Man, republicans can dish it out, but they can't take it.
- foofightrs777, on 05/16/2008, -4/+10The facts aren't as important as rhetoric and political points!
- lamiaconfitor, on 05/16/2008, -0/+6yeah, everyone in the country should be castrated because they allowed an idiot who constantly says stupid things to the international community... now tell me if I am talking about Iran or the USA?
- queenstarsha, on 05/16/2008, -0/+6hillary went to something like wellesley and yale, and obama went to something like harvard, and he taught at univ. of chicago.
my drunken unwillingness to get the facts exactly straight aside, those two are not dumb. mccain, now he has some issues with intelligence, apparently. doesn't know that reagan very much negotiated with iran, and doesn't know if condoms are useful against HIV, and whatnot. i was friggin' eight during the iran-contra hearings and i know what reagan did. it'd be pritty *****' pathetic if full-grown mccain wasn't paying attention back then. - swrostmore, on 05/16/2008, -2/+8I think that your attempt to draw a distinction between "the Iranian army" and "moderate Iranian army leaders" is disingenuous. The "moderate factions" language is clearly an attempt at a whitewash, and regardless of which factions we're talking about, the arms Reagan bartered ended their journey in the hands of the Iranian army. The Iranian army is by official declaration "our enemies" and Reagan certainly did negotiate arms sales with them.
- DuffyDirect, on 05/16/2008, -2/+8McCain went through hell for the country, but I think he's just really spending his political capital to dangerous levels with these B.S. pandering tactics. It's all rubbing elbows with the Sean Hannity & Rush Limbaugh crowd. "You're a great American, sir!" "No sir, YOU are a great American!"
- RoloTomasie, on 05/16/2008, -0/+5A blunder is, in its nature, huge or rather grievous.
- ExitMoose, on 05/16/2008, -0/+5So what you're saying is that it's better to sell an avowed hostile regime weapons, as long as you do it through an intermediary?
Hmmm - quomen, on 05/16/2008, -1/+6What is this McBush? Is it on the dollar menu?
- PhilLesh69, on 05/16/2008, -0/+5It's the way people have been led to think. You have to condemn or support, no other way.
It's that whole "You're either with us or against us" one-liner way of thinking.
Party politics, especially in a two-party duopoly, is nothing more than divide and conquer tactics, working to split people into smaller and smaller camps of various ideological hatred and anger, in order to prevent the emergence of a coalition or majority of voters that might depose the ruling class. - PhilLesh69, on 05/16/2008, -0/+5p0s3r, why would they be released on the day Reagan took the oath of office???
Of course a stupid person would think, "How could he look weak when they were released on the day he was inaugurated". That was the point.
You might believe that the Iran Contra affair never happened, but I was a teller with Navy Federal Credit Union in 1991, and Oliver North came to my window in 1991 and I can only say that his savings account was several times beyond the NCUA insured amount (which is the same as the FDIC insured amount). I also have driven past his home on Great Falls, and know that he has a multi-million dollar "estate", with a serious security fence and cameras.
My father retired as a Colonel in the Army. Ollie North retired as a lieutenant colonel in the Marines. I know how much money they both made as far as the military pay scale is concerned. They were both 20 year officers, so they both receive 50% of pay for retirement, but a colonel earns more than a lieutenant colonel. Ollie might get 37,000 a year, while my father gets about 45,000 a year. - sovereign3, on 05/16/2008, -0/+5Thanks. I did not remember his name. You're absolutely right.
A little backgournd:
Adnon Khashoggi was the middleman who was to accept American arms delivered to Israel and sell them to the Iranians on our behalf. However, he became frustrated when the terms of the trade changed and felt he was not receiving his fair cut. He ratted out the plan to the British press and it all fell apart from there. His greed killed the plan. - chase001, on 05/16/2008, -0/+4He was probably too busy banging Prosti-Lobbyists for his votes when it happened to remember.
- drmangrum, on 05/16/2008, -6/+10McCain is simply a placeholder. Nobody really cares what he says or does. There is no way he can stop Obama. The only chance he has is if by some fluke Hillary was put on the democratic ticket.
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