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191 Comments
- TheCaptainJS, on 10/12/2007, -14/+65I am an eagle scout, and damn proud of it.
And to be honest, some of these things just make us look bad.
To be fair, there was a good amount of religious ties to scouting, and if you choose to go in that path there are many different religious badges, but it didnt encompass everything.
Scouts was a hell of a lot more then that, at least it was to me. I didn't do a whole lot of the religious things. I wasn't there for religious reasons.
Most scouts don't give a ***** about sexual orientation or religious affiliation, its the crazy parents. And believe me... there are a lot of crazy parents.
Dont judge the organization and its members because of the idiots who haven't gotten in tune with the 20th century (let alone the 21st). - EochaidRiata, on 10/12/2007, -4/+53"some would argue that Atheism is a religion. Not from a legal standpoint of course but Atheism is essentially a faith that God does NOT exist."
Some would argue that non-unicornism is a religion. Not from a legal standpoint of course but non-unicornism is essentially a faith that unicorns do NOT exist.
Is that your logic? See how silly it sounds. - scottbgc, on 10/12/2007, -5/+53They have an absolute right to discriminate because they are a private club. On the other hand they routinely get large services from the government for next to free, case in point they pay $1 to hold there annual jamboree held on a armed forces base with all the trimmings, security, lodging the whole nine yards. They use public schools for free to hold their meetings. If they wish to continue to discriminate they should not get these privileges. They should either get out of government sponsorship, or allow everyone in...
- GnuTzu, on 10/12/2007, -20/+63They've made their choice to discriminate, I don't see why they should protected by anti-discrimination laws.
So, let's ban scouts from all gay and Atheist organizations. - SelfAbortion, on 10/12/2007, -4/+40@2ndRevolution
Homosexual != pedophile.
Your goal is impossible unless you plan on locking your kids in the basement for the rest of their lives. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+32The US Constitution prohibits the federal government from endorsing religion.
US legal precedent has established that government aid constitutes implicit endorsement, and thus government aid must obey Constitutional constraints.
US legal precedent has also established that barring individuals based on their beliefs is de facto religious discrimination, which, while permitted by private organizations, as the article notes, is prohibited by the government.
US law does not distinguish between broad or narrow religious discrimination; it doesn't matter if you prohibit all non-Baptists, all non-Judeo-Christians, all non-monotheists, or all theists; these are all religious tests, which the government is Constitutionally prohibited from endorsing.
Saying it is OK for the government to subsidize an organization that "merely" bars membership based on belief in a God but does not discriminate between religions is the same as saying that the US government could bar atheists from, for example, the military, or from the US Forest Service. It is explicitly prohibited by the US Constitution.
And, as the article notes, by many state Constitutions.
Incidentally, there are many, many instances of federal, state and local government entanglement with the Boy Scouts. Not just subsidies, but also hiring preferences - for example, new federal government hires who were Eagle Scouts automatically start with a higher pay than everyone else - yet atheists can not be Eagle Scouts. This is prima face discrimination, and clearly unconstitutional. - AmishRefugee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+31I defend their right to exist and be how they are, as that's what the constitution allows, but they should NOT get any special government treatment or funding. It really sucks that an organization that big would be so against the gays and atheists, but as far as I know, they have every right to do so.
Someone should create another boy scouts-like organization that is fully inclusive to anyone - Junkyarddawg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+27Uh... flankk, what you just said doesn't make any sense...
- Clark3934, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25Considering YMCA stands for "Yong Men's Christian Association", I have a feeling they wouldn't like atheists either.
- belden, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23Maybe you need to actually have been a Boy Scout to understand. When I was little I was a Cub Scout and later a Boy Scout and one thing they really do push heavily is not just religion, but Christianity. In order to actually advance in rank we had to have a conference with our leaders and they specifically asked what religion we were. My family wasn't very religious and I actually had to go and ask my dad what religion we were to give them an answer. The whole time I was in Boy Scouts I never felt comfortable with the whole religion thing because EVERYTHING had some religious aspect to it whether it be praying before events or reciting oaths and pledges that made us promise to be reverent or affirm our faith in God. I know how bad it made me feel, I can only imagine how bad it would make a child from a Jewish, Muslim, or other non-Christian background feel. The whole point of Boy Scouts is to learn leadership, have fun as a kid, do activities, go camping, things like that. Religion doesn't need to have any part in it, and if it does, then sanction it as a religious organization.
- mrjames, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22@sleze
I assume you mean 'e.g.', not 'AKA'.
@Dweller99
Sam Harris says that 'atheist' is a tag that shouldn't have to exist; all it really means (in the west) is not believing in the Judeo-christian god. To me, my disbelief of this particular god isn't any more important than my denial of the Norse or Hindu gods, for example. Assuming I hold the latter disbelief in common with you, then aren't we both atheists of a sort? What I'm saying is, atheism can only be considered a religious belief system in the eyes of a very particular and biased kind of christian/muslim/jew theist. - ZippidyDoo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19Very true TheCaptainJS. I'm an eagle scout as well and I was never questioned on my religious beliefs. I was an atheist throughout my scouting and still am. Crazy parents are indeed the major influence, of which we were mostly without. There are lots of troops with some pretty ***** leaders that cause all the problems.
- bloomanchoo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21As an ex- eagle scout, who is both fervently an atheist and believes in having the gay community included in the social fabric of our country... I agree, that unless they decide to practice an open, secular and inclusive community... they should be afforded no special handouts and be treated simply as a private organization.
I also defend their right to discriminate... though I do not agree with them, in the slightest.
Funny, the troop I used to be in was extremely open and welcoming... and I learned a great deal.
Such a sad state of affairs now... religion is so great isn't it? /sarcasm - scrambled, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21@dweller
Atheism is simply an answer to a question. It has no dogma or required beliefs, and is certainly not based upon faith. - chrisOrbit, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18Its more about the Government endorsing or promoting a certain religion. It gives special status and privileges to a private club the promote belief in god as one of its core values. It violates the values of separation of church and state.
Someone using their GI bill for the school of their choice is their own decision and rather irrelevant for this issue. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17Tolerant? Name one atheist politician. Exactly, they're all forced to profess their christian or even muslim beliefs, but not one single atheist. Instead they race to be more christian than their opponent, with photo ops in churches and other pious things. I think we all know who is really persecuted.
- jaderobbins, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16good synopsis of the core argument for those who are scratching their head.
- ryMac, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16right when i stopped going to the mormon church when i was almost 16, i thought i might as well just get my eagle scout award over with because i was a life scout and had all my requirements, so wheni had a talk with my scout master about it and he asked why i stopped going to church, and i told him that i didn't need to worship "god" (he thought i was going the way of the devil of course) so he didn't think that it was a good idea for them to let me do my eagle scout project. so i asked if all the work i had done for people because of scouts since i was a cub scout was worth anything, and before he responded i told him that he lost sight of what the real point of boy scouts was and bluntly informed them that i will never support the boy scouts again.
so, I havent. - Waterispoison, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17Why do you guys always think the world revolves around yourselves and your religion?
- Elranzer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15You realize that the Bible says that eating shrimp is just as "evil" as homosexual acts? It does. Look up Leviticus. You can't pick and choose which parts to believe when it's convenient.
- freff, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17@2ndRevolution
Are you serious? That's one of the most convoluted arguments that I've heard. You just described a segregated Islamic state that so many conservatives rail against so much nowadays. If you don't trust your son or daughter around a heterosexual person of the opposite sex, then you're just going to have to lock that kid up, and never let him or her out of your house. Ever. And then, I really wish that child luck when it's time for them to leave, and make their way in the world on their own.
Truth is, the world is full of people of all sexual orientations and races and religions and whatnot. And it's cool. I know several homosexual people that I wouldn't have any problems watching my young child. Honestly. Homosexuals are not pedophiles. There are very few differences in all of us once you take the time to get to know people.
Don't be so afraid, talk to your kid, and don't worry so much about the scary "other guys" that haven't done anything to you. - hehe, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18@TheCaptainJS
Actually, it is fair to judge an organization by certain members that still have conservative practices. Why? Because these are discriminatory practices. Boy Scouts (the organization, not the actual scouts themselves) deserve the bad rep because...well...they discriminate. Anyone else who discriminates gets a bad rep.
Boy Scouts may not be solely based on religion, but it bars athiests and agnostics, in addition to barring gays on what are likely religious grounds. Sure, most of the kids don't care, but those who can't join likely do.
What Boy Scouts does is, sadly, legal, and while I wish that they would change their discriminatory policies, I doubt that will happen anytime soon thanks to many stubborn, religious people in charge, in addition to the parents. However, no way in hell do I want my tax dollars subsidizing and giving no-bid leases to an organization that discriminates like this. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13"I have been on "mission trips" with Christian organizations, and they are often allowed to use public schools for lodging. "
If that happens on US territory, that is actually illegal, a violation of the Constitution of the United States of America.
Of course, many local governments do this on a regular basis - but it is still unconstitutional. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13@sleze:
"If gays and atheists want to hurt the "evil" Boy Scouts, this is probably not the way to do it."
I'd love to have heard you spew your contorted logic if you were around in the days of segregation.
Asking that my tax dollars not subsidize an organization that excludes me is "wanting to hurt them". Interesting perspective. Utterly illogical, hateful and unnecessary, but fascinating. - EpicCrusadr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12@2ndRevolution
There are female leaders in the Boy Scouts. I'm a scout, and I've survived. Just because one person does something doesn't mean that all will. Don't stereotype.
EDIT: beaten by Freff - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10packerbacker -
Nope, that's not true. Can you prove that there is no invisible pink unicorn in my garage? If not, then it is a belief, and no more.
Feel free to substitute "leprechaun", "orc", or "Zeus" in place of "invisible pink unicorn" above. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10US Constitutional legal precedent is quite clear: The US may not practice nor endorse religious discrimination. US subsidy of religious organizations is implicit endorsement. Therefore, the US government may not subsidize organizations that discriminate on the basis of religion. It's actually quite clear and unambiguous, from a legal if not political standpoint.
I am sure you would agree with former president George H.W. Bush, who said, in 1987, as a sitting vice president in the midst of a run for the presidency, "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots."
However, former president Bush was wrong, and his statement was a blatant violation of his Constitutional duty.
There was a time when people made the exact same argument you are making, in defense of the KKK. Not only is bigotry indefensible on basic grounds of human decency, but government endorsement of it violates the Constitution. - waterdrop, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Boy scouts isn't about sexual preferences or religion. Well, at least it wasn't back when I was in Boy Scouts. It was about pine-wood derby racing, camping and hanging out with your buds, and learning some stuff.
- rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9ajck, if they are a Christian organization, then the US Constitution - the same one that protects their right to BE a Christian organization - prohibits the government from subsidizing them.
It's a very simple concept, as old as the Constitution itself, yet you seem to have such trouble with it. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14The organization is not, however:
Friendly,
Curious,
Kind - Waterispoison, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@the penguin boy
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9lets try this again
It is not that atheists believe there is no god as theists believe there is one, but that we simply come to the automatic conclusion that an assertion made with no evidence is false. If I claim that I can fly, but offer no evidence, the logical conclusion would be that I, in fact, cannot fly. The same process is applied to the assertion "god exists." An atheist's certainty comes from the utter lack of any evidence to suggest that his conclusion is incorrect, while a theist's certainty comes from seemingly nowhere. - IAmRoot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@the penguin boy
Look at the First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11You must have been fun to be around during segregation.
- t3hNinj4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@Clark3934
As an open weak atheist/agnostic who's worked for a YMCA youth camp over the summer, I can safely say that the organization is completely accepting of non-Christians. In the 30-something people working in Camp Silver Falls, there was a Taoist, a Buddhist and two atheists (counting myself), as well as three Muslims who helped out for a week. My religion (or lack thereof) was probably more accepted there than it has been anyplace else. The YMCA pushes Christian values, but not Christianity. They're all about tolerance. I worked as a chef, and for what it's worth, they were the only youth camp in the area that had kosher and vegetarian meals. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10All Americans should care, because Boy Scouts receive US government subsidies using your taxpayer money, and the US government provides Eagle Scouts with preferential treatment when they apply for government jobs, offering them higher starting pay, despite the fact that it is illegal for the US government to pay heterosexuals more than homosexuals, or theists more than atheists. Since the By Scouts bar atheists and gays from their ranks, government subsidy and government preference in hiring is a violation of the US Constitution.
If you don't care about your government violating the US Constitution using your tax money, you are an idiot. If you don't care about an organization as integral to American society as the Boy Scouts discriminating against gays and atheists, you are yourself a bigot. - MacBigot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@ZippidyDoo
"I was an atheist throughout my scouting and still am."
...So you lied each time you recited the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Yes, you're a fine example of the kind of character Scouting seeks to instill in boys.
/sarcasm - Elranzer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"Religious organizations endorse a particular religion. The Boy Scouts do not endorse ANY religion...just the belief in a higher power(aka the Flying Spagetti Monster)."
Hmm... sounds like they're a deist organization. You know who else is a deist organization? The Freemasons... - hode, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Yes, it's called the constitution. Look it up.
- bloomanchoo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9I agree... and am dis-heartened to hear your experience...
I for one had the experience you described as it should be.... and am glad for having it. The troop leader I had was a really great old guy, who held our get-togethers at his house, and had lots of places to go camping. I guess I was in the minority.
Too bad Christianity, and religion always seems to get in the way of having a good time. - fyngyrz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Be Prepared;
That's the Boy Scout's marching song!
Be Prepared;
If a Girl Scout comes along...
If you're looking for adventure of a new and different kind,
And a Girl Scout comes along who is is similarly inclined,
Don't be nervous, don't be flustered, don't be scared...
Be Prepared!
(originally by Tom Lehrer... any errors are mine) - freff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@ajck
It's all well and good to be a Christian organization. And if the Boy Scouts wants to identify themselves as a Christian organization, and not accept gays or atheists, it's their choice. But then they must observe the flip side of that coin, and forgo the governmental aid that they have enjoyed. As a Christian, you are free to discriminate if you choose, but I don't have to watch my tax dollars go to an organization like that. - imnojezus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@dweller
I know you don't want to be in this discussion anymore, but there's still a problem with your logic. Faith is belief without evidence or proof to back up that belief. Atheism relies solely on proof, or in this case, the complete lack of falsifiable evidence that God exists. E.g. "There is no proof that God exists, therefore I do not believe in Him." If there was proof, there would be no atheists. There would also be no need for faith. - scrambled, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@packerbacker
I don't need to prove anything. The burden of proof lies with you, dear friend. As Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
@dweller
I'm just as certain God does not exist as I am there is no teapot orbiting around mars. We'll never know, but based on available evidence, I can make a good guess. - jcapogna, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12Good, I nearly got kicked out of the Boy Souts for being atheist. I quit before anything serious happened though.
- rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8The argument is that the Boy Scouts shouldn't benefit from government preference, subsidies using US taxpayer funds, and higher pay in government employment, because they discriminate in ways that violate the US Constitution.
Why is that so difficult for you to understand? You are free to have a "Whites-only" social club - but the US government may not subsidize or otherwise support you.
That is the LAW. It's not a matter of telling the Boy Scouts what they may or may not do, it is a question of what they may or may not do using the government's dime. - SelfAbortion, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@Elranzer
"Hmm... sounds like they're a deist organization. You know who else is a deist organization? The Freemasons..."
You know who else were deists? A large chunk of the people who founded the country. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10I'm also an Eagle Scout and there was very little religious interaction. I'm personally an atheist and the only religious things we reference to wa when we closed our meetings and we said "will the great Scoutmaster of all scouts be with us till we meet again" and Scout Sunday, but that was more or less just giving back to the church that let us have our meetings there.
- ScoobySnack, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8And a Happy Solstice to you, holiday stealer.
- bwjacket, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Cue the link to illegal stream of Penn & Teller's ***** episode on the Boyscouts...
please, I want to see it again. -
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