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Gitmo Lawyer says waterboarding not torture - Iranians do it

thinkprogress.org — During a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on “The Legal Rights of Guantanamo Detainees” this morning, Brigadier General Thomas W. Hartmann, the legal adviser at Guantanamo Bay, repeatedly refused to call the hypothetical waterboarding of an American pilot by the Iranian military torture.

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phnx0221, on 12/12/2007, -6/+74The legal adviser at Guantanamo Bay is "not equipped to answer that question"?
Taken straight out of the play book I see. I wonder, if instead of a hypothetical, if it were truly the case, if he would still be "unequipped to answer that question'? Or, do you think he, and the Bush administration, would immediate lambast the Iranian government for using torture against a prisoner of war? That they would cry foul, quoting the very Geneva Conventions they themselves have called "quaint and obsolete"?

How difficult is it to say whether or not a technique that is used is torturous or not? I mean really, the lives and mental well being of people are at stake, and because of politics, you can not say what is or isn't?

I wonder what it must be like to look someone who has suffered by the hands of torture, square in the eye, and tell them that it wasn't so, or that you don't know whether or not it was so, so you went ahead and decided to do it anyway?

Oh right, he doesn't have to deal with that. He's the lawyer in the office, who doesn't have to look these people in the eye, hear their screams, and see another human being go through a terror that he will never have to face.
- unfilterthought, on 12/12/2007, -2/+31Why don't we subject him to some waterboarding?
  Then he will be properly equipped to answer the question.
  Nothing like first-hand experience.
  
  Any person who dares say its not torture should be only able to say that after being waterboarded.
  - EditorResponse, on 12/12/2007, -23/+4Oh, come on. If the HEAVY antiAmerican, and pro socialist, Marxist and communist Digg.com folks who think everything that Iran's Amadinjad and Venezuela's Chevez do is OK then the water boarding the USA does on known terrorists should be OK. Don't be a bunch of hypocrites.
    - brianary, on 12/12/2007, -1/+6You don't even know what socialism or Marxism or communism is, you halfwit.
    - DeadRepubs, on 12/12/2007, -1/+2brianary i think hes part of the 'Watchsites' crowd,The Far-right loons.
    - caferrell, on 12/12/2007, -1/+3Go away EditorResponse. You are a paid troll and the rudest individual on digg. You are not convincing anyone of anything. You are simply an irritant, like body lice.
      - Metman, on 12/12/2007, -1/+1Where can I sign up to get money for trolling?
  - kooft, on 12/12/2007, -4/+13EditorResponse, most of us believe that torture is a tactic that morally questionable regimes use. We don't think it's okay if Iraq or Iran tortures, but we expect them to because they don't subscribe to American standards and values. When America tortures we speak out about it because we're Americans and are proud of the fact that we're the morally correct voice of reason in the world. We don't want to be viewed as a 1st-world Iran.
    
    And somehow that patriotism makes me socialist, communist, Marxist and anti-American?
    - EditorResponse, on 12/12/2007, -12/+3I've seen thousands of socialist, communist, Marxist, antiCIA, antiNSA, antiICouldGoOnForDays...but all lead up to anti-American, posts on Digg.com. Where have you been?
      - brianary, on 12/12/2007, -1/+3Oh no! The poor CIA and NSA!
        Proletariat. Bourgeoisie. Workers!
      - Speed, on 12/12/2007, -1/+3EditorResponse, prove to me that you even know what socialist means, without using the words "evil", "USSR", "Russian", "Soviet", "Cold War" or "Marx" (hint: socialism wasn't created by Karl Marx and isn't communism).
    - brianary, on 12/12/2007, -1/+4@EditorResponse:
      Anti-Bushulini, maybe. Not Anti-American.
    - kooft, on 12/12/2007, -0/+6I've been here voicing my opinion on Digg. Just because I don't believe in 'bomb first, verify the intelligence later' doesn't mean I hate America. I just can't get behind a morally hypocritical foreign policy.
- EarlOfLade, on 12/12/2007, -0/+9Any official who feel they are not able to decide should be waterboarded so they have a firm basis to form an opinion on.
- oldhick, on 12/12/2007, -10/+4many of our troops are water boarded during training. Do some research.
  - source1984, on 12/12/2007, -2/+13CLEARLY, waterboarding when you know its waterboarding training is VERY DIFFERENT from waterboarding when you don't know its waterboarding (as a prisoner). Do some thinking.
    - Swift2, on 12/12/2007, -1/+10They're given a sample of what an enemy might do, just like they're exposed to tear gas and all the rest, so they can train getting their gas masks on quickly when they're tearing up and having trouble breathing. That is completely different. The program that Navy SEALS went through, developed for training only, was called SERE, and the head instructor in the program was appalled to see those techniques being adopted as our torturer's manual.
      - dcorey07, on 12/12/2007, -8/+3you must also consider the circumstances.. we waterboard "terrorists" to get answers on upcomming threats... they would be waterboarding merely to torture our POW... it is completely different
      - kooft, on 12/12/2007, -4/+1BS. The enemy tortures Americans to glean insight into upcoming offensives and troop positions. When they have no use for a prisoner they either let them sit in prison, kill them or exchange them for their own POWs. Quit buying into the bogeyman propaganda that everyone else just loves torturing Americans.
      - brianary, on 12/12/2007, -0/+5@dcorey07:
        TORTURE ISN'T RELIABLE.
      - caferrell, on 12/12/2007, -1/+2We hear the impossible scenario that is always carted out as the justification for torture: that is that there is a nuclear bomb on its way to New York, or already in place in Chicago and we have certain information that it will detonate in short order AND we know that the terrorist that we have nabbed knows where and when its going to explode. (how can we know all that with certainty without knowing the location of the bomb is troubling...)
        So the Fatherland Security people tell us that since that might happen (not very likely) we need a legal right to torture.
        *****!
        If this impossible scenario were to come to pass, our police, FBI or Fatherland Security goons would torture the guy anyway! And if they were right and they saved a million Americans from certain death, they would be PARDONED by the President! Obviously.
        In the case that they were wrong, that there was no bomb and they tortured the wrong guy, then they would go to jail, unless the President would pardon them anyway.
        Don't legislate for the exceptions!
    - Kythas, on 12/12/2007, -2/+4So if I shoot you in training so you can see what it feels like, that's different than if I shoot you for real? After all, you clearly know it's only for training purposes.
      
      Why don't you do some thinking. The experience of it is the experience of it.
    - kooft, on 12/12/2007, -0/+3"Daniel Levin, then acting assistant attorney general, went to a military base near Washington and underwent the procedure to inform his analysis of different interrogation techniques.
      
      After the experience, Levin told White House officials that even though he knew he wouldn't die, he found the experience terrifying and thought that it clearly simulated drowning.
      
      Levin, who refused to comment for this story, concluded waterboarding could be illegal torture unless performed in a highly limited way and with close supervision. And, sources told ABC News, he believed the Bush Administration had failed to offer clear guidelines for its use."
PSWTyrant, on 12/12/2007, -5/+88Everyone who says it's not torture should try it at least twice just be sure they understand it fully. Everyone involved in this has broken the law and tarnished our country's credibility. Impeach now!
- gr3yarea, on 12/12/2007, -5/+5Everyone who says it is torture should be waterboarded and then submitted to another form of treatment widely considered torture, such as electrocution or caning, so they can determine if there really is a difference.
  - farblong, on 12/12/2007, -2/+3So is tasing considered electrocution, and therefore torture? Are we already torturing our own population?
blackhawk919, on 12/12/2007, -30/+19I think that every one of our service members understands that if they're taken prisoner in our current conflict that waterboarding is the least of their worries. Given the choice I think they'd be overwhelmingly happy to be waterboarded by the hands of the CIA at Gitmo.
- moulin1, on 12/12/2007, -11/+22I agree absolutely. You should be waterboarded.
  - blackhawk919, on 12/12/2007, -14/+7As opposed to being taken prisoner by our enemies? Wet me up.
    - Herostratus, on 12/12/2007, -5/+15NO man, just for ***** and giggles. Youll be famous on You Tube.
- valkyries, on 12/12/2007, -3/+8id take that over a big knife and you being video taped
- Frei, on 12/12/2007, -6/+8Oh the classic, if you can't beat em join em philosophy.
  - blackhawk919, on 12/12/2007, -8/+7Joining? Waterboarding is hardly joining in the enemies tactics. If our enemy was to start using waterboarding it would be a huge improvement to what they currently do.
    - notoneofus, on 12/12/2007, -5/+5It's irrelevant that our forms of torture are less severe than theirs. The fact that we employ any form of torture at all is the issue.
hawkeye17, on 12/12/2007, -7/+76This man is a disgrace to all the veterans of past wars who fought and died to protect the ideals of this country. Ideals that do NOT include the use of torture. WTF is happening to America? Every time we stoop to the terrorists level and use torture, the terrorists win.
- valkyries, on 12/12/2007, -17/+3look at how many car/truck/bombings happen all over the world, three large one(that i can remember) this week so far, Now look at how many happen inside the states. Id like to keep it that way.
  - notoneofus, on 12/12/2007, -0/+3What makes you think that going out and pissing off everyone in the world makes it less likely that people will blow up cars/trucks on American soil?
  - hawkeye17, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1If you think that using torture is the answer to that then your really out to lunch.
- Wargalas, on 12/12/2007, -15/+3You had me with your statements all the way up until "the terrorists win". Everytime I hear that statement, I disregard what that person has said. Terrorists want to kill us. Period. They don't "hate us for our freedoms" or "want to install an Islamic theocracy", they want us dead. And I don't give two ***** if they are waterboarded as opposed to me waking up one morning and seeing more mass American deaths.
  - zengonzo, on 12/12/2007, -0/+4Then which part did you agree with?
  - source1984, on 12/12/2007, -0/+6why u think they want you dead? just for kicks?
    - Wargalas, on 12/12/2007, -2/+2Well Osama has said that he wants us "off their land" even though we were invited by the King of Saudi Arabia to defend it from Iraq during the first Gulf War. I say that's not a good enough reason to murder 3,000 people.
      - Wargalas, on 12/12/2007, -1/+2That's right idiots, digg me down for the truth. Look it up.
  - phnx0221, on 12/12/2007, -0/+5How many hundreds of thousands of people have been killed in Iraq as a direct result from our war and occupation? How much value can you place upon the infrastructure of an entire country that has been destroyed? How many millions of people are now displaced as refugees? While I'm not condoning the loss of innocent life here in America, I can certainly tell you that those numbers are far greater than 3,000.
    - Wargalas, on 12/12/2007, -1/+1I'm not speaking about Iraq, I'm speaking of the time between 9/10 and the invasion of Iraq. You are mistakenly intermixing Iraq and Afghanistan during that time.
      
      I'm speaking of Al-Qaeda and it's members, something you can't seem to differentiate between them and the war in Iraq.
- gr3yarea, on 12/12/2007, -3/+2Oh, USA veterans have fought battles using tactics such as the intentional bombing of civilians (Dresden, anyone?) and the wholesale destruction of entire cities (Nagasaki, Hiroshima?) but torture wasn't an ideal that they were fighting for? The USA veterans seem to have been more bloodthirsty than you give them credit for.
  - valkyries, on 12/12/2007, -3/+1"the wholesale destruction of entire cities (Nagasaki, Hiroshima?)" You know how many people would have been killed if the US invaded mainland Japan, order of magnitude more. kill one to save 10?
    - gr3yarea, on 12/12/2007, -2/+0Killing one to save ten sounds like good math. Torturing one to save ten does, too.
- source1984, on 12/12/2007, -1/+4America has BEEN TORTURING long before 9/11. Its called the CIA, NSA, 'secret prisons' and 'exported torture' (having someone else do the work or doing it on foreign soil).
  - phnx0221, on 12/12/2007, -0/+4Correct, but luckily, we have this information coming into light now during a heavily charged and politicized war, and in a day and age of rapid information dissemination. So, while these techniques have been employed for quite a while now, at least now we (the people) are more aware of it, and can have a voice in the matter of how we treat fellow human beings.
  - ventralnet, on 12/12/2007, -3/+1No!!! Impossible. This is all Bush's fault! he invented torture IMPEACH NOW!!! (I am a ***** moron)
IrishJoe, on 12/12/2007, -7/+42It used to be that my country, the United States of America, prided itself on being the most honorable nation on earth never lowering itself to level of our most desperate enemies. Now if we do whatever Iran, a theocracy run by religious nuts, does it's fine. I guess ever since my once proud nation got taken over by religious nuts, they've been modeling themselves on other dictatorial theocracies. I hope one day, we, the American people, will take our country back from the theocrats.
- source1984, on 12/12/2007, -2/+3TORTURE has been taking place long before TODAY. The only thing is one specific technique leaked out, and even that a minor technique. Look up the CIA, NSA, overseas prisons. No conspiracies here. I don't get why everyone's so surprised with waterboarding in 2007.
- JQP123, on 12/12/2007, -0/+4Too bad there isn't some way we could just let all the religious nuts from both sides fight it out without the rest of us becoming collateral damage.
- xtoph3r, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2
  Tell it to the Native Americans.
Hellman109, on 12/12/2007, -8/+12To everyone who fights against america ever:
Torture American civilians, soldiers, servicemen / servicewomen and those that support america.

That is the notice being sent to the world, I hope none of you ever need to go to another country...
- Rahodeb, on 12/12/2007, -3/+4Because it wasn't happening before?
- whodat51773, on 12/12/2007, -4/+4Yeah, like they needed our permission to start beheading Americans...
  - phnx0221, on 12/12/2007, -3/+3As we need their permission to destroy their country under the guise of "liberation"?
    - whodat51773, on 12/12/2007, -5/+2Oh the righteous pacifist! Give your house and property back to the Native Americans or STFU!
    - valkyries, on 12/12/2007, -1/+1And Native Americans lived in huge cities? They lived in small pockets all over the country.
      - 11oops, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1Where huge cities now stand.
moulin1, on 12/12/2007, -3/+44Many American servicemen and civilians alike, have suffered the pain, indignity and crippling effects of torture at the hands of foreign governments and organizations. Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, North Korea, North Viet Nam, and any number of middle eastern political groups. Now the US stands accused of torture. But there is one major difference between these nations and groups and the US. None of them ever justified or endorsed torture. None attempted to rationalize torture with their ideology. None ever attempted to codify torture into law. Not even Saddam Hussein. It was always a dirty secret to be hidden and denied. The US has broken new ground by bringing torture into its mainstream ideology.
- Wargalas, on 12/12/2007, -13/+4So our publicly admitting we waterboarded is worse then the death marches that the Japanese did against our guys according to your logic?
  - moulin1, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1In principle yes. Premeditated murder is the most severe offense. If you fly into a rage and kill 100 people you have obviously done more damage than if you plotted to kill one person. But you wouldn't be eligible for the death penalty.
- Kythas, on 12/12/2007, -9/+4So you'd rather see more Americans die? Waterboarding was used successfully in the interrogation of Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, the person who planned 9/11 and had knowledge of further attacks which al-Qaida were planning against the US. He also admitted he was the person who personally beheaded Daniel Pearl.
  
  Interrogators were getting absolutely no information from him at all during the first few weeks of his capture. They waterboarded him once, and after that he sang like a bird. The information he gave allowed us to disrupt literally dozens of attacks which were being planned, and also led to the capture of numerous other ranking members of al-Qaida.
  
  If waterboarding someone like him produces results like that, then I have no problems with it.
  - DreKor, on 12/12/2007, -2/+4Wow, we found the king of the boogie men. And he confessed to all of these horrible things. And told us how to stop the rest of his plans and where to find his friends. And now we don't have a video record of it happening. Convenient.
    - Kythas, on 12/12/2007, -5/+3You're an idiot. I knew someone killed on 9/11. If waterboarding bastards like him prevents anyone else from having people they know killed in attacks like that, then I say waterboard away.
      
      Jesus Christ, these people are trying to ***** KILL YOU! You'd rather have that happen than pour water over someone's face for 10-15 seconds?
      - Wargalas, on 12/12/2007, -3/+2Sorry for your loss. Not everyone on here wants to bend over and take it up the ass from Al-Qaeda. There are those of us who want revenge.
      - 11oops, on 12/12/2007, -0/+3And what if someone suspects you of planning an attack. Should we also waterboard you to get more information on your upcoming attack?
        
        I'm sure you'd sing like a bird as well.
  - moulin1, on 05/02/2008, -0/+1I would suggest that waterboarding kills more Americans. Torture isn't used by technically advanced nations more because it is unreliable than because we are so moral. When you convict someone on a false confession extracted by torture you are, by default, freeing the real culprit.
- netdance, on 12/12/2007, -0/+5Actually, the Nazis called it engaged interrogation - just like we do.
- projjalc, on 12/12/2007, -0/+3Wargalas, I think you're missing the point. If someone asked the Japanese if what they did killed people, they probably wouldn't reply that they "weren't equipped to answer the question".
yakimushi, on 12/12/2007, -4/+30"I’m not equipped to answer that question." So... he was born without a soul? A conscience? A brain?
What does someone need to be equippped with to understand that waterboarding is torture?
- tehseanzor, on 12/12/2007, -0/+19when he says he's "not equipped to answer that question" what he's really saying is "I don't have a very good lie or excuse right now. I know it's torture but I can't say it is because that would make us (Gitmo) bad."
  One way or another they look bad but they look worse when they try to lie. Soon they will have to lie that they lied and it will go on an on until they confess or die
- dnields, on 12/12/2007, -0/+4I wonder if he would be "equipped" to answer it if they waterboarded him and then asked him again.
tehseanzor, on 12/12/2007, -3/+6does two wrongs don't make a right apply here?
NickSpinner, on 12/12/2007, -11/+6the nazis killed 6 million people, if its good enough for them its good enough for us. ***** theses scumbags
- VeryBoredNow, on 12/12/2007, -1/+8yea , cause we want to be just like the nazis! right?! ... rightttt
- arghargh, on 12/12/2007, -0/+5Who know who else was a nazi? HITLER..
  - john2kx, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1lol, thanks for this history lesson, bucko.
- hawkeye17, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1Deep thoughts by Jack Handy!
VeryBoredNow, on 12/12/2007, -2/+20I think we're missing the basic concept of a CIVILIZED democracy with laws here. What I am trying to say has been said by Ghandi in a popular quote "an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind", if we keep sinking to the level of the people we're trying to protect ourselves from then we are no better than them. On the other hand it creates a vicious cycle out of which there is no return unless everything boils over.
- blackhawk919, on 12/12/2007, -12/+5If our enemy sunk to the level of waterboarding it would be an improvement.
- sippincognac, on 12/13/2007, -0/+0I dont think "on the other hand" means what you think it means
Frei, on 12/12/2007, -2/+11Considering the US has prosecuted people in the past for using this torture technique, I think it's safe to say that no one will call it what it is for the real possibility of there being severe consequences for those who performed and/or approved the torture.

And what's with the 5th grade excuse here? I can just see someone saying to this guy, "If Iran jumped off a bridge would you?"
KaiSe7eN, on 12/12/2007, -3/+8There's nothing wrong with smokin pot mom! C'mon! Everyones doin it!!
- VeryBoredNow, on 12/12/2007, -0/+3agreed
- 11oops, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1Including your mother.
rosullivan, on 12/12/2007, -2/+14Hartmann can take his "hypotheticals" and shove 'em up his ass. ***** him and his "hypotheticals". Waterboarding IS torture, like it or not. Let's do it to him and see how he likes it... would THAT be fair?
- pintomp3, on 12/12/2007, -0/+8the fact that we even call it waterboarding means that the war-mongers have won. waterboard is the device, the act is controlled drowning. by calling it waterboarding, they win the game of semantics and get to frame the argument. this is the case with the "war on terror" and "war on drugs" to "collateral damage" and "axis of evil".
- gr3yarea, on 12/12/2007, -5/+0Where does your USA constitution say that you cannot torture people who are not your citizens? Where does your USA constitution say that its protections are also to be applied to people other than "The People" of the USA?
radink360, on 12/12/2007, -4/+12Iran does it? So now we like Iran and we do what they do? D.C. is full of asshats!
aliashandle, on 12/12/2007, -3/+22Iranians also arrest and execute homosexuals. Why are we even looking to Iran for affirmation. We're the ***** United States of America. I thought we looked to no one. I thought we were the beacon of freedom that shines upon this earth and guides the rest of the world on how to behave as a sovereign nation. Or is that only for convenience.
- phybere, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1I guess you thought wrong, it's only for convenience. Besides, the article is about whether or not Iranians waterboarding an American would be torture.
THE4IRON, on 12/12/2007, -1/+9In other news, a redneck lawyer says inbreeding isn't a bad idea either...
lnxfi, on 12/12/2007, -1/+18I tried to use that argument once when I was 5 when I did something wrong. My mom smacked the crap out of me for it.

Someone needs to teach government a lesson. I vote for my mom to do it.
stealthmoe, on 12/12/2007, -2/+14Ron Paul: Torture is Terror
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQCtn2jVwkQ
- cornswalled, on 12/12/2007, -6/+4Ron Paul = Less chance of being elected than Perot
  - dnields, on 12/12/2007, -4/+2If it were down to those two choices...I think I would rather have Perot as president. Wonder why he didn't throw his hat in this time?
BR3DDY, on 12/12/2007, -0/+7This is too frustrating. I'm just thinking out loud but...

It seems that in order to remedy the " I cannot recall", "I don't recollect", "I cannot remember", "I am not equip" etc. flood of answers that have hindered these federal investigation recently, we need some sort of rule that says "Using any of these statements is not a means to omit a question you are obligated to answer to the best of your knowledge and should be able to" with serious actions.

People need to be held accountable and something needs to be done when they willingly cover their asses.
- Proletariat, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2Maybe the remedy to getting them to talk is by using torture on em. LOL. Oh the irony...
- texpundit, on 12/12/2007, -0/+5I say that if they give any more than ONE of that slew of answers in a single session, they need to have full psychiatric evaluations and brain scans...especially checking for instances of Alzheimer's Disease. If they're mentally and physically fit and they evade questions, they should be fired and then prosecuted for felony perjury. If they're mentally or physically deficient, they should be removed from office and sent to a nice convalescent home so they can babble in peace. Period.
amigabill, on 12/12/2007, -0/+5Then Brigadier General Thomas W. Hartmann shouldn't mind if someone does it to him. I think it'd be interesting if anyone in positions to make decisions on using various methods of interrogation should be required to go through it a few times him or herself before that decision authority is granted to them. This should include those carryoing out the interrogations and using those methods, even if they aren't in a position to decide anything, they should at least truely know what they're doing to another human being. Perhaps that whole chain of authority choosing to do something down to the guy doing it should have to experience the same method themselves each and every time it is used. You choose to waterboard someone, you have to be waterboarded yourself. That could help discourage using extreme methods without careful consideration. Especially for things that these guys tell us are not torture, it can't be that bad so why not?
- cornswalled, on 12/12/2007, -6/+1He does it to himself, every morning, when he TAKES A SHOWER.
- jeffhammond, on 12/12/2007, -3/+1they do practice torture on themselves, you dumb ass. Check the facts before you speak.
- kooft, on 12/12/2007, -0/+5"I think it'd be interesting if anyone in positions to make decisions on using various methods of interrogation should be required to go through it a few times him or herself before that decision authority is granted to them."
  
  Daniel Levin, former Assistant Attorney General, decided to undergo waterboarding to gain an appreciation for the technique while he was analyzing torture. Here's a quote from the ABC article it:
  
  "After the experience, Levin told White House officials that even though he knew he wouldn't die, he found the experience terrifying and thought that it clearly simulated drowning.
  Levin, who refused to comment for this story, concluded waterboarding could be illegal torture unless performed in a highly limited way and with close supervision. And, sources told ABC News, he believed the Bush Administration had failed to offer clear guidelines for its use. "
  
  http://www.abcnews.go.com/WN/DOJ/story?id=3814076& ...
Talphin, on 12/12/2007, -1/+15WOW This planet is *****
- blake_mooney, on 12/12/2007, -1/+8Yes, it sure is. We now torture prisoners and say it's not torture. How ***** immature is that ***** sucker to say "Iran does it!". He sounds like a ***** 6 year old.
  - phybere, on 12/12/2007, -4/+0How "***** immature" are you to post that without even reading the article first?
    He never says "Iran does it" - in fact, the whole article is that he refuses to answer when questioned about whether or not Iranian military waterboarding an American pilot would be torture.
    Rather than being a "***** sucker" and posting knee-jerk reactions, read your ***** first.
pintomp3, on 12/12/2007, -1/+7our new stance on terrorism has become "if you can't beat'em, join'em" we cannot claim to uphold a higher moral standard while at the same time doing things that the "enemy" does.
harlowsmonkeys, on 12/12/2007, -4/+5Buried for completely inaccurate headline. Is it too much to ask submitters to actually read the story before they submit it???
cornswalled, on 12/12/2007, -12/+1Waterboarding = taking a dman shower. Iran only sees it as torture because they don't have the water to shower regularly.
Basiledes, on 12/12/2007, -3/+6Putting people in gas chambers is not wrong! The Germans did it.
tgc1, on 12/12/2007, -1/+2Surely they wouldn't mind an INDEPENDENT investigation or tribunal taking a look? Right? I mean it's the only American thing to do. I mean for ***** sakes, this is like allowing your best friend to back up your story over whether or not you stole cookies. Of course he's going to vouche for you.
Rahodeb, on 12/12/2007, -3/+1"Torture", like "terrorism", is a vague word and needs definition. Is it anything that causes discomfort? Is it severe discomfort? Is it permanent damage? Does it include mental anguish, or just physical? These are the problems with trying to define methods such as waterboarding as torture. It exists in a grey area where it doesn't cause lasting physical harm, but causes extreme discomfort for a short period of time. I think that until some real guidlines are established, then these extreme coersive techniques are always going to be used.
- WorldGroove, on 12/12/2007, -1/+3http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic ...
  Well.... USA called it torture at one time...
  - OUberLord, on 12/12/2007, -0/+3Well, shoving bamboo reeds under the fingernail doesn't cause lasting physical harm either, it simply inflicts massive pain, but I see your point. I haven't undergone waterboarding myself, let alone by someone who wanted something out of me, but every time I read about someone who has actually experienced it they tend to call it torture.
- bowens44, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2it certainly is NOT a gray area.It's absolutely black and white.
- nem0, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1Does being forced to watch 4 hours straight of "The View" constitute torture? How about an Adam Sandler movie?
oggydefl, on 12/12/2007, -5/+0http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=he671630dVxg ...
wil2200, on 12/12/2007, -2/+7the US continues to slide down into a the well of barbarism
daxsymbiont, on 12/12/2007, -1/+7And the Spanish Inquisition did it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Spanish ...
- urubos, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1Really??? I never expected that!
john2kx, on 12/12/2007, -1/+4Oh, well, as long as Iran does it...
jlhoben, on 12/12/2007, -3/+3What the Iranians do is totally irrelevant.
jeffhammond, on 12/12/2007, -7/+1Water boarding is not torture, try it on yourself sometime. Jesus, half of you don't know what torture is. AND he has to be 'not equipped to answer that question' because either way if he says something, YOU duchbags are going to ridicule him even more. So piss off.
- cornswalled, on 12/12/2007, -3/+1"try it on yourself sometime"
  I beleive that's called "Taking a shower and washing your face."
- FloppyLlamaDigg, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1"AND he has to be 'not equipped to answer that question' because either way if he says something, YOU duchbags are going to ridicule him even more"
  
  The question was valid. If he can't answer it without looking like an ass, maybe it's because his position is wrong.
gr3yarea, on 12/12/2007, -5/+0Since non-citizens and illegal combatants (those who do not fight in uniform) are not covered by the protections of the USA Constitution OR the Geneva Convention I do not understand what the fuss is about. If someone has tried to kill USA soldiers or USA citizens, what do you care if they receive harsh treatment?
missingnoh4x, on 12/12/2007, -1/+5Oh, well if Iran does it, then it surely isn't torture!
Funny, I thought the very same propaganda source just told us the Iranian government is full of terrorists and loves torture and hates freedom and drinks the blood of puppies.
- gr3yarea, on 12/12/2007, -3/+0Many people also tell us the Iran government is peaceful and tolerant and no threat to anyone and kind to all its citizens but if it waterboards people perhaps they are not so nice as CNBC would like us to think?
JQP123, on 12/12/2007, -6/+2Don't “have to have a lot of knowledge about the law to understand this technique violates Geneva Convention Common Article Three.”

If waterboarding isn't allowed, how about we just shoot them instead? According to the Geneva Convention, it's acceptable to shoot combatants who aren't in uniform.

Terrorists don't follow *any* conventions.
- gr3yarea, on 12/12/2007, -5/+0Even better would be many months of actual torture ending with being shot or strangled slowly. Why treat the enemies of your USA any better than they would treat you? There is no logical reason not to turn the tactics of the enemy against them. Retaliation against their families and neighbors would also get results.
  - JQP123, on 12/12/2007, -1/+1No, if the Geneva Convention is the accepted standard that everyone wants to follow, then I say we follow the standard and just shoot them ... period, the end.
  - bowens44, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2I sure hope you're a troll. No patriotic American would make such an atrocious statement.
    - JQP123, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1Is following the Geneva convention suddenly unpatriotic?
      
      Reasonable people shouldn't argue for a convention that they don't really want applied.
- OUberLord, on 12/12/2007, -2/+3That's all well and good, and I can't say I entirely disagree. I would like to point out though that it has already been proven that our governments definition of a terrorist isn't exactly solid. I wonder how many people just ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time and are now being tortured while previously they had absolutely no ill will towards the U.S. Think of that Canadian guy who was held for months, for no reason, and then released without even so much as an apology.
- n8glenn, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2That's right, so why don't we just do like the terrorists do?
whodat51773, on 12/12/2007, -3/+4Any truth to the rumor that Michael Vick will be released to head up the CIA's Terrorist Interrogation Unit? I sure hope so...
elister, on 12/12/2007, -2/+5Hey cool, I guess since drugs and hookers are legal in Amsterdam, that must make it legal in the USA!
nem0, on 12/12/2007, -1/+4If we accept the torture of our enemies as an acceptable cost of war, must we accept the torture of our soldiers by our enemies as an acceptable cost of war?
- n8glenn, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2No, we don't have to accept it, we can be even MORE hypocritical than we are now and demand that everyone else live up to yet another standard that we refuse to live up to.
- JQP123, on 12/12/2007, -1/+1Accept it or not, it's a proven fact that what our enemies have in mind for our soldiers is beheading. If the worst they do to our soldiers is waterboarding, I'd say we are lucky.
bnolsen, on 12/12/2007, -9/+4This is friggin lame.

Water boarding is done to Marines, navy and air force pilots as part of their.
It's a scare tactic which absolutely does no physical harm to anyone.

Does this mean we're supposed to be nice to people who want to kill us and think that negotiations and kindness will make them love us? Of course not!

If you want to know what real torture is then you can check out what they really did in the spanish inquisition, during midieval times and currently some of this type is done by the radical muslims.

A previous digg posting: http://thecontaminated.com/the-most-painfull-tortu ...
- gr3yarea, on 12/12/2007, -5/+1The terrorists cut off the heads of journalists and construction contractors and people sympathize with them and take their side against the people they are trying to dominate and destroy. Perhaps the USA military should start publicly beheading people because then people would take their side like they take the side of the terrorists
- Wartyboskfapped, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2If what you say is true, and it's a scare tactic that is 'lame' -- then clearly it is of no use at all on enemy prisoners.
  If it is so mild, as you suggest, why is it considered a viable technique to use?
- faskippy, on 12/12/2007, -0/+4*****. I hate terrorists just as much as the next guy. But torture is wrong, period. No matter who is doing it. With all of the operatives we have around the world, and all of the money we throw at these operations, and if any one of them know what the ***** they are doing, we ought to be able to find out what we need to know. If we really have something on them and know they are involved in terrorism, we should be able to prove it. Present the evidence in a trial, and send them to prison, or kill them. Do it right. There is no reason whatsoever to lock people up in Guantanamo without evidence, and keep them there indefinitely without charges or a trial. People see the govt. doing ***** like this, then enacting ***** like the patriot act, knowing the govt. can use it against ANYONE of its citizens for any dissent it chooses, and that's when they get scared. The fact that you can't trust the govt. is what makes people feel the way they do, and I don't blame them. I know they're not in it for me, when they start deeming protesters in support of the Constitution, "terrorists" or enemy combatants. Case in point: the FEMA training video posted here not long ago, numerous states declarations to the same. An ***** with power is still an *****.
- bowens44, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2what a friggin lame post you made. It disgusts me that anyone would advocate lowering our selves to that level. You and those like you are the problem.
- maulie, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1Marines are NOT forced to undergo this.
  
  I would hope that we've evolved past the Medieval age, and that we learned something from the Spanish Inquisition.
- nem0, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1Waterboarding is torture. Americans don't torture their enemies. We are better than that, and we try to be the best people we can. I am ashamed of the Bush administration. Fighting evil with evil is wrong.
daxsymbiont, on 12/12/2007, -2/+6It's so ridiculous Americans wonder why they aren't respected as much as they thought.

They have several hundred millions of population, most of the stuff, power and money and STILL act like kids that are being treated unfairly.

You are huge, relax.
OUberLord, on 12/12/2007, -1/+4Here is what I want to know, speaking knowing full well the government won't tell me. Exactly how often does this waterboarding, torture or not, actually get the prisoner to release usable information that is then used as actual intelligence? Morality aside has this ever yielded information that saved lives, or is our government just torturing based on the possibility that they *may* know something?

Either way I see it as torture, and you would think that with our massive governmental bodies dedicated to keeping tabs on the goings in the world, spy planes and satellites, etc. that we wouldn't need to stoop to barbarism to extract tiny snippets of information that may or may not even be useful.
- TedLW30101, on 12/12/2007, -3/+1Your use of the word 'barbarism' is extremely subjective. If you consider waterboarding to be barbarism, how would you classify dismemberment or glass catheters or other methods in use by various entities around the globe.
  
  And the first part of your argument can be construed as you expecting that interrogation techniques used by the U.S. is done only for sport or fun. I would surmise that this is not the case and the fact that certain techniques used today actually do yield useful intelligence.
  - OUberLord, on 12/12/2007, -0/+3Subjective yes, and there are varying degrees to it as you point out, but using a method of extracting information that is supposed to physically and mentally simulate drowning does seem barbaric to me.
    
    I'm not saying that the government is using these techniques for either sport or fun, I'm just wondering if there are actually cases where it has yielded anything worthwhile. It wouldn't exactly hurt the governments stance on the matter to bring up cases where the technique saved lives, foiled a terrorist operation, etc. I'm just saying that all we hear about as the public is that there is something that may or may not be torture going on, and no justifiable reason as to why.
    
    Side note: I dugg you up, you make good points.
- n8glenn, on 12/12/2007, -0/+4Look at how many people they have convicted of being Al Qaeda terrorists -- ZERO! That's right, they have never gotten anything that could possibly stand up in a court of law. And they've been torturing people or at least 6 years.
mandarin, on 12/12/2007, -1/+4How the hell did this guy get his law degree?
BohicaTwentyTwo, on 12/12/2007, -5/+3Has Iran signed the Geneva Conventions?
- EvilAmerican, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2Not being snarky, here. I confess that I am not very knowledgeable about the Geneva Convention.
  
  Is it a recipricol agreement between the signors or is it a declaration that we will treat prisoners in a certain way?
  
  Does anybody know?
  - Kythas, on 12/12/2007, -2/+3It's a declaration that we will treat persons who fall under the protection of the Convention in a certain way. The terrorists we capture don't fall under the protections provided by the Convention. Check out Article IV of the Convention. I'll paraphrase it for you:
    
    To be a protected person under the Convention, you must:
    1. Be a member of a uniformed armed service of a party to the conflict.
    2. Be a member of a militia or volunteer corps, including a member of an organized resistance movement, provided that:
    a. You are commanded by a person who is responsible for his subordinates,
    b. You wear a fixed, distinctive sign that is recognizable from a distance (this is in lieu of a uniform, which resistance fighters wouldn't necessarily have),
    c. You carry arms openly,
    d. You conduct your operations according to the laws and customs of war.
    
    The terrorists we're fighting fall into neither of these categories, therefore they are not legally afforded Geneva Conventions protections. In fact, according to the Conventions and the US Supreme Court, they may legally be considered spys and be subject to summary execution (their tactics are designed to hide among and be indistinguishable from the civilian populace while conducting combat operations). We don't do that, though. We detain them in air conditioning, give them medical care, access to clergy in the religion of their choice, and food which is consistent with their religious beliefs.
    
    Waterboarding was only used from 2002-2003. I don't know why there's even a discussion about something the US hasn't done in 4 years.
    - EvilAmerican, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2Thanks, Rythas.
      
      I dont think they should reap the benefits of any agreement to which they are not a party, either. We are relatively kind to these folks considering how they historically have treated others.
- EvilAmerican, on 12/12/2007, -1/+3Okay, just looked it up. My readind says it does not apply to those who have not signed it... it is a recipricol agreement.
  
  Article 2
  In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.
  
  The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.
  
  Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.
  
  The Supreme Cout, unfortunately does not agree with me.
  http://civilliberty.about.com/od/waronterror/p/ham ...
- ramiro, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1No, they seem to have signed the Guevara Convention though. All totalitarian regimes now cooperate with knowledge on how to oppress their own people and threaten the Western countries.
gr3yarea, on 12/12/2007, -3/+1This article cannot possibly be true, the people of Iran and the Government of Iran are a peaceful people descended from the great Persian empire, surely they would not allow the mistreatment of prisoners, women, ethnic or religious minorities, homosexuals, bisexuals, the transgendered, and the otherwise marginalized. Iran is the freest, most open society in existence and the Iranian Government guarantees equality for all of its citizens!
faskippy, on 12/12/2007, -1/+7But, but, we don't torture. Our President says so.
NCSUspoon, on 12/12/2007, -0/+7The worst way to think about torture is to measure yourself up to what other people are doing. By that logic, concentration camps are not torture - the North Koreans do it, Thumb screws are not torture - they use it in Afganistan and former Iraq. The objective with anti-torture laws is to be better than those who use it, by not stooping down to their level. Can't understand why that is so hard to grasp for some people.
- insonh, on 12/12/2007, -3/+1ya we wouldnt want to stoop to their level...
  the only ones we should feel good about torturing to death is the unborn
  - NotAChickenHawk, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2Hmmm, maybe we should invade Iran and forcibly abort all of their fetuses! Would that make you right wing wackos happy? Or should we let the mothers carry them to term and then waterboard them as soon as they're out of the womb?
- eclecticpassion, on 07/14/2008, -0/+0yep..in the words of gandhi- "an eye for an eye only results in making the whole world blind" and "hatred will not be solved by hatred- that is the law eternal" it terrifies me what atrocities suposedly civilised human beings are capable of, once they have falsely convinced themselves that their enemy is "sub human" or a "terrorist" in bush's eyes, all muslims and foreigners are terrorists. maybe he should take a look in the mirror..
source1984, on 12/12/2007, -1/+3U.S.A. has been torturing, long before today, long before 9/11. Its called the CIA, NSA, mercenaries and 'overseas prisons'. If you guys think otherwise you're kidding yourselves.
insonh, on 12/12/2007, -8/+3Isn’t abortion the torture of the unborn?

Amazing how liberals will defend animals trying to kill us but advocate the killing of someone who didn’t do anything to any of us.

Maybe unborn babies should start manufacturing weapons grad uranium, deny the holocaust and advocate wiping Israel off the face of the planet.

It could save their lives
- phybere, on 12/12/2007, -3/+3I have to say, this is the stupidest comment I've read all day.
  Regardless of your views on abortion, it *could* be considered murder by some, but that's completely different from torture.
  If you're aware of waterboarding a fetus as a form of abortion, please correct me.
  - insonh, on 12/12/2007, -1/+3A fetus lives in the embryonic sack; introducing saline into its environment (which is a method of aborting the baby) is essentially drowning it in a corrosive fluid.
    It is torture because it causes the fetus to be scalded to death and then delivered dead.
    So unlike the water boarding done by the military, the unborn baby in most cases is being tortured to death.
    i say most cases because some actually survived
  - nem0, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1I guess I stand corrected. What method do you recommend for aborting a fetus?
- nem0, on 12/12/2007, -2/+1Torture is iinflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain. I don't think abortion fits that description.
- ramiro, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2Awesome analogy (except for the mention about Israel).
  I fully endorse the insurgency of the unborn against the Leftist abortist trash.
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Gitmo Lawyer says waterboarding not torture - Iranians do it

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