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89 Comments
- Xeminis, on 10/12/2007, -5/+37@cwo655321
The point of torture is to get information, not necessarily a confession. Although how could you consider any information received during torture reliable is beyond me. - JoCliMe, on 10/12/2007, -13/+45Awesome, he confessed, torture works!
I am being sardonic, please don't digg me down : ( - rnwen2750, on 10/12/2007, -13/+40This surprises anyone? Read up on police logs and case studies. They badger people for hours to get them to say what they want, regardless of whether or not what they confess to is the truth. Bullying is, unfortunately, a very popular, very useful tool.
- saikhan, on 10/12/2007, -6/+30So would I.
- atdigg, on 10/12/2007, -5/+23This comes to show if it was needed that torture undermine everything that make democracy work. You can't have a democratic country that tortures people. Period. We have to choose, we want to live in a democratic and law abiding country or we want to torture people.
- xcursedx, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23Apparently it's appalling for someone to torture "Allied" personal (or civilians), but somehow the US is justified in doing the same thing.
what do they call it now ? aggressive negotiation ?
"The memo concluded that torture amounts to more than inflicting moderate or fleeting pain, and "must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death"
great the fourth Reich has arrived ..... - Domza, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16Who would of thought... Inflicting pain on people gets people to say/do things to stop inflicting the pain. Caution, geniuses at work.
- Tenlow, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18You know, I like to think of myself as smarter than the average American, but I had to look up the definition for sardonic.
I'll give you a digg for making me learn.
http://images.lamer.net/tmyk.gif - xcursedx, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17it has nothing to do with their word against the US's.
it's about the fact that they are not being treated to the same liberties the US demands from every other country holding POW's.
You can't say as a government that people ( soldiers , pows, civilians etc) have to be treated a certain way and not follow those same rules yourselves. - rebuilder, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17No, the biggest problem with extracting testimony by torture is that it's an inhuman, barbaric practice, and a society that accepts the use of such methods has no claim to being civilized.
- Kahnza, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13It doesn't really have anything to do with what hes saying. It has to do with the brutal, ILLEGAL TORTURE. Just because hes of a different ethnic backround or religion doesn't make it right.
- jezmck, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14@patnolan: even if you're being sarcastic, it's just not funny.
- nova912, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16It was sick when the pres was trying to make an argument for torture against the Geneva conventions, like a lawyer trying to bend the laws to fit his case. I think I saw him say something to the effect of the Geneva conventions are not specific and vague when it comes to torture.
- skinjester, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@patnolan
all of Them? all of Us? I have a hard enough time building consensus amongst 100 people at work, but you're talking about hundreds of millions of people as though their actions could be reduced to simple yes/no responses. Disregarding psychohistory for the moment (cuz its fictional), the world doesn't work that way, and most people aren't particularly interested in either dying or killing for whatever grand cause is being offered. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9What evidence is there he was actually tortured?
Or should we just take his word for it? - ddales, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11IMHO the biggest problem with extracting testimony by torture is false information. At a certain point ANYONE will break down and tell you what you want to hear just to stop the abuse. This can obviously lead to misinformation which in a lot of cases can be more dangerous that factual information. The only time that torture works, and I by no means advocate torture, is when the story told by the victim of torture can be verified by secondary sources not related to the victim. I personally have a feeling this doesn't happen very often.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9He is a terrorist, a person who lies, maims, tortures, and kills in the name of his religion. Why would one actually believe claims of torture made by a terrorist?
- Canumbler, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Mmm, this argument by so called "progressives" worries me a bit, the biggest problem with torture is that it is completely and utterly wrong, and demeans any society that practices it.
You are however right, testimony from torture cannot be relied upon.
nice guy eddie from reservoir dogs said it best:
"If you ***** beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, now that don't necessarily make it ***** so! " - jeanette3654, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10So this guy confessed to the Cole bombing, eh? I thought, that since the deck gun crews were PREVENTED by their chiefs from firing on the approaching boat thereby allowing the attack to go forward, he was simply doing what the US gov. wanted him to do?! I'm confused????? I'm sure those 17 dead sailors really appreciate what those chiefs did.
- dggeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5For those too lazy:
Etymology: French sardonique, from Greek sardonios
: disdainfully or skeptically humorous : derisively mocking
synonym see SARCASTIC - mille716, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10This is just another case in which proves torture doesn't work. Take out the moral and constitutional problems with it and its wrong just on effectiveness.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html?nav=rss_opinion/opeds - raybury, on 10/12/2007, -7/+12Al Qaeda 101: If captured, use the media and claim you were tortured.
Moonbat 101: If the U.S. shoots someone, they overreacted. If the U.S. doesn't shoot someone, it was a plot. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Of course, there is no actual proof he was tortured.
- tkstock, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@floorman
You gotta love #7 "it is a tactic that can succeed or fail"
Can't deny that logic. :) LOL - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@Achalemoipas:
Alas, that is not proof HE was tortured into a confession. - Zaetha, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6FTA - "It has produced vital information that has helped disrupt plots and save lives." - CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano.
A Few Good Men indeed, Col. Jessep:
CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano: "You weep for Abd al Rahim al Nashiri, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Abd al Rahim al Nashiri's torture, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives." - jerkfaceirl, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10patnolan, wow, you're the biggest ***** on the internet, wd!
dug down. - funhouse1970, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Why was this buried? Absolutely true. John Yoo endorses the torture of children.
The depravity of it all boggles the mind.
They want to make us all complicit to their crimes.
By allowing this it makes us all accomplices with the torture system.
Nazis never openly endorsed that knid of EVIL. http://movies.crooksandliars.com/yoo-1.mp3
We know from John Yoo that the President has the legal authority to torture children… And I just got done reading the transcript of KSM’s “confession” and he implied that he was tortured… And he later stated that his wife and children had been arrested. If we take John Yoo at his word that the Pres has the legal authority to torture children… Why would John Yoo argue this point over and again if he wasn’t trying to get people used to the idea… And exactly what would the government be saving that for if it’s not for a 9/11 confession to quell the dissent?
Notice how they always heavily publicize “confessions” and never talk about any evidence that these confession are true. You need more than a confession prove someone committed a crime.
Let’s first keep in mind that The Japanese Red Army took responsibility for the 9/11 attacks, on the very same day…
The 9/11 Commission Report says that KSM had confessed 4 years ago.
So why did it take 4 years to get a confession out of him? And why did he impress his CIA torturers by lasting as long as he did when he could have just confessed? The entire case against OBL is allegedly based on KSM’s confessions prior to the Report. - GamerzCorner, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I have to agree with raybury...
While i think torture is wrong and any information obtained via torture should be disregarded. I would like to have some proof he was tortured...
I know there have been a few incidents where it has been proven. and knowing that if i was a "detainee" that's the first thing I'm going to say when put in front of a judge was I was tortured. I think the matter should be investigated further before anyone jumps to conclusions about if he was or was not tortured. - dggeek, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8@patnolan
Welcome to my block list, bigot. - rnewson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Article 17: "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."
Not vague at all. This is why Bush refuses to call those captured in the War on terror as prisoners of war. - GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4People make false confessions absent torture all the time.
Interrogators have to make judgments to decide which information they want to explore. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@gabriels:
You need to stop watching so much TV. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6"Yes, they put women's panties on my head. Obviously, they were clean but it insulted my manhood so I was compelled to confess. Plus the lacing nylon made my beard itch."
- boo1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2To all the "tough guys" who advocate this behavior, i have one question....Since the British sailors have just confessed to being in Iranian waters, is there confession valid?
- 35263526, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Democracy != Freedom
Don't confuse the two. Democracy is all about 51% of the population bullying 49%. Bush was democratically elected by the aforementioned 51%, and he says tortute is law. Therefore, what he's doing is totally democratic. The people _have_ chosen, twice. - randf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"there" confession is simply a predictable series of staged acts meant to embarass and demoralize their countrymen and politicians, which is against the Genevea conventions by the way.
I wonder if any of the people here who so quickly jump on the bash-America bandwagon have any opinion about Iran's flagrant and public violation of the Geneva convention.
hint--the answer doesn't begin with "But the US....." - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3You're almost right. It's actually why "evidence" should not BE obtained by torture.
A subtle, but very important distinction. - marmanukem, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4And what are you doing?
Are you serving in our armed forces "doing justice" to all these towel heads, each of which has a bomb vest on in your mind?
Do you speak against our own troops who torture and humiliate?
Or what about the Blackwater corporation, which has come under fire for its Christian Crusade type mission, who's members think like you and want nothing more than to kill "towel heads."
These moderates are afraid. Afraid to take a side, because a decision any way will get them killed.
What the ***** would you do? - noamsml, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2This whole affair reminds me of an old joke Americans made about the Soviet Union:
Q: How does the KGV catch a lion?
A: They catch a mouse and torture it until it confesses to being a lion in disguise.
Ah, the old days... - floorman56, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Check out lesson 18 of the terrorism handbook
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jihad18chap1.html - PrivateGuy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Confessing won't stop the torture. Believe me. I've already tried that.
- motters, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3This is why "evidence" obtained by torture should never be admissible.
- diulei, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1For some reason, sardonic is one of the few SAT words I actually remember.
- thyarcher, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Well, then it's a good thing that America is a Constitutional Republic, which is designed to stop the "majority bullying" that you are referring too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
See section: "Democracy" and "Republic"
The cleverness of the electoral college and American governmental system as a whole usually isn't seen at a casual look. It doesn't guarantee that during any single time period that one group or another won't be misrepresented, but it does allow most of the groups involved to rally together and overcome the vocal majority/minority of the past term or two and bring the preferential treatment back to their side for the next term or two. In the long term, the several contrasting views balance out, and in general the society progresses positively. - PrivateGuy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Then again after ACTUALLY READING THE STORY.....
There is little doubt that U.S. officials will designate Nashiri as an enemy combatant. At the very least, one U.S. counterterrorism official said Friday, "There is extremely strong information from multiple sources that this individual was key to the Cole bombing and other maritime plots."
Nashiri denied those accusations during his hearing and said he made up the claim that Bin Laden had a nuclear bomb. He also said he made up Al Qaeda plans to bomb American ships in the Gulf and a plan to hijack a plane and crash it into a ship.
But in several often-rambling comments and answers, he made many incriminating statements. - insomuchas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1They're not prisoner's of war since only military personell are prisoner's of war. That is defined by the Geneva Conventions.
- GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2From the LA Times...
"Nashiri, 42, said his U.S. captors began torturing him as soon as he was arrested in November 2002 in the United Arab Emirates; the torture stopped, he said, when he was transferred from secret CIA custody to Guantanamo last September along with 13 other "high value" detainees. Among them was confessed Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed."
This seems to suggest that it is important to keep Gitmo open. Nashiri says conditions improved once he was transferred to Gitmo. - marmanukem, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5@patnolan,
Our own Government has taken the exact same stance.
Bush himself said "You are either with us or with the terrorists"
and he spouted his rhetoric about an Axis of Evil and what not.
I take personal offense to your statement, as I know several Muslims who are **good** people, better than you.
They never would think of terrorism. Your ignorance is staggering. - fredrated, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"The military officials who presided over Nashiri's hearing, whose names were redacted from the transcript, said they would investigate his claims of torture"
Yeah, They will investigate themselves, as if that will do any good. -
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