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119 Comments
- voteforblank, on 10/12/2007, -5/+62It's going to be a VETO world for the next 2 years!!
Just don't blink, you may miss NOTHING happening... Heil *****! - natmaster, on 10/12/2007, -5/+57Yes.....defend liberty by destroying it. Great idea you got there.
- captinherb, on 10/12/2007, -5/+55Your right we should just be able to pickup anyone for any reason with no court order and torture them like...
http://digg.com/politics/Tortured_into_False_Confessions_innocent_Maher_Arar_will_get_no_US_apology
"What boggles the mind, is that you guys think this is a good thing."
Yea, remember America, this is what separates us from them. - UGM2099, on 10/12/2007, -6/+46Treating enemies with respect is a sign of advanced evolutionary status. Removing rights and using torture is THEIR primitive tactic, not ours.
- Alphabet, on 10/12/2007, -5/+40Leave it to conservatives with their great "moral" values to torture people
- kabewm, on 10/12/2007, -4/+38Alleged enemy combatants. When has America ever stood for anything other than innocent until proven guilty?
In fact, theres been many mistakes, many charges dropped and people released.
It's been almost 4 ***** years, either charge the people with a crime or release them and apologize. This holding people indefinitely is un-American. - Dracos, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26THIS SHOULD BE PRIORITY #1.
How the democrats allowed the end of habeas corpus in the first place is beyond me. If the democrats are smart, they'll undo everything Bush has railroaded through congress in the last five years. Every removal of rights and liberties, and every contrarily named bill:
- No child left behind
- Clear skies initiative
- Healthy forests act
- DMCA
- Patriot act
And they should put a moratorium on congressional pay increases until they can do something about the minimum wage and/or actually fuel the economy, which has been running on smoke and mirrors since Bush stole office.
They should dismantle all the ***** that was put in place due to knee-jerk fearmongering rather than rational thought. Most of the TSA, for instance. - fiver22, on 10/12/2007, -5/+25Go ahead people, read 1984 and then condemn these supposed 'liberal' ideals. For those of you who can't get through this opus: you're next.
- DyDx, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23@voteforblank: With a Democrat majority in both houses and many moderate Republicans opposing Bush Administration policies, it's certainly possible that vetoes on important issues (such as the one this article speaks of) could be over-ruled by the necessary 2/3 majorities in both houses.
- blackkbot, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18@pabster
I doubt you voted democrat. So, what would you know what people want from them? - masgrada, on 10/12/2007, -13/+28"can't we just torture 'em a little longer... pleaaaaaase??"
- smoothmedia, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17If there were no liberals, there would be no America.
- shawnfassett, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18The "problem" with Clinton is that he got some prosecutions...there will be NO trials (not even Jose Padilla's in January). Once you torture prisoners...you will NEVER bring those to trial. Why does this matter? Well...if you EVER need to prove your set of facts and prove that you have the right to hold random people that we've bought off the streets in foreign countries some proof may be necessary. (Oh at those random things such as International Law, signed treaties, human rights, and the United States Constitution!)
- aboyd, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18@pabster
They're trying to confer rights to YOU and ME, you idiot. And, Heaven forbid, an enemy combatant might be given a fair trial, where the conviction stands up under scrutiny. But noooo, you'd prefer we convict on flimsy hearsay that causes the rest of the world to condemn the USA -- or not even bother to convict, and just hold them indefinitely without trial, even if they're innocent. Such thinking undermines the strength of this great country. If what we're doing is right, it should be subject to scrutiny, and it should pass with flying colors. I want the USA to pass with flying colors. Why don't you? - Cl1mh4224rd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14"And we'd all have a lot more money in our pockets."
It's been 6 years. We're still waiting... - Bega, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14I read that the first time through as heil *****
- Gtitian, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13I was a soldier, I will tell you why we treat POW's fairly and perhaps even better than our own at times, as it was described to me by my Drill Sgt's:
Believe it or not, terrorists do in fact get the news, our enemies get the news, they have cable, and the internet, and even telephones. Whatever we do, ends up on the news. If we torture our POW's it ends up on the news. Then they find out that being an American POW sucks. It's better to die. Then they fight to the death instead of to surrender, then more American soldiers die.
TORTURING THE ENEMY KILLS AMERICAN SOLDIERS.
Period. This is a fact. It does not, nor has it ever in the history of the world, yielded valid information.
Wars are never won through emotional reactions. I understand your hatred. Your xenophobia, your lust for revenge. But it will lose this "war" for us. Only cold, calculated logic will prevail.
Dictatorships form slowly. - UGM2099, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12The DMCA was signed in to law in 1998 so that's not Bush's fault. I agree with the rest however.
- Gtitian, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16I don't want to sound like an alarmist, or extremist but, Bush's Presidency thus far so closely resembles the formative years of so many modern dictatorships it is in fact frightening. I think if you're not very concerned about the future of America right now, you're kidding yourselves. Hopefully the democrats will undo some of his damage, but I'm not convinced. I'm not convinced any professional politician who's funded by the lobbyists and industrialists could every end the hi-jacking of this nations republic and return it to the control of the individual and wrest it from the corporation.
Here's hoping. - MrTea, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12OMG, pabster = enemy combatant. He's trying to fool everyone by making us think he supports Bush!
See... - WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13appleann as usual, you are sooo wrong!
The point is to uphold the sacred principle of rational culture, of "innocent until proven guilty."
Anyone can accuse anyone.
It is imperative that a mere 'accusation' doesn't automatically lead to punishment or suspension of basic human rights!
...At least, if we want to be a rational, decent society. - riffic, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12A lot of people should look up what Liberalism really means, it shouldn't be considered a slur as it is currently.
- edverb, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11The Supreme Court disagrees. "Enemy combatant" is an invalid legal construct. The detainees are prisoners of war and are entitled to habeus corpus and protections under the Geneva Conventions.
To the extent that the court granted latitude to Congress to revisit the issue, their revocation of habeus corpus rights for detainees is likely to be found unconstitutional as the US is not facing rebellion or invasion. Citizenship has nothing to do with it.
Those are the facts. - andreo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@ appleann1
Your damned right I think its a good thing. Because if this keeps up then one day you may be considered a terrorist. Or I may be considered one. Or the guy posting 2 lines down from my post may be considered one. And I want our rights to be intact when that happens.
Fear is no reason to start treating people like *****. And having an attitude that it's alright to treat someone like ***** because they are different is a slippery slope that will lead to a lot of suffering for everyone as time goes on. - ZenMojo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Because you're an idiot.
1000 years ago the Muslim world was preserving art, science, and literature. They saved the Western world's greatest works from radical Christians who wanted to wipe pagan influence off the face of the planet.
You may recall it as the dark ages. The only reason Western enlightenment survived is because the Muslims preserved it.
Meanwhile, the Muslim world formed trading links between Asian and Europe, giving Europeans such wonderful things as the gunpowder they turned around and used to conquer Africa and North America.
Which makes you really think. The Chinese invented gunpowder and used it to make fireworks. The Europeans got gunpowder and turned it into exploding maces and then, eventually, guns. (Go figure.)
Oh, and as the Catholics were hunting down witches and Jews, the Muslims harbored them in Africa and the Middle East.
So, no, you backwards troglodyte, Muslim history is not a long series of beheadings. - starmanjones, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12>No No they will not do that - there on the side of the terrorists!!!!
bush is the best thing that ever happened to terrorism. its flourishing. when clinton left office... he had a workable peace plan that just needed someone to push it through. it fell apart because clintons term ended and bush didn't care.
under clinton... al qaeda while not dead... was waning. he had them on the run. they looked like violent loosers. had they crashed into the trade towers in the political environment present under clinton it would have appeared as the last desparate act of dying terrorist movement. there'd been nowhere to hide. but, bush, a bully, was just what they needed to reinvigorate the cause. - Dgen_X, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9See the point of giving them a few rights back is to give the INNOCENT a chance at getting out...
- starmanjones, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12>This is pathetic.
>If Democrats think they were elected to confer
>rights to enemy combatants their stay in power will
>be very short indeed.
there are fewer words... and your meaning much clearer if you just say,
"I'm stupid." - Corrosionx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Just because what the nazis did was legal in Germany didn't mean they weren't get tried and convicted at Nuremberg.
@Dewhead: They have the monopoly on force. In any civilized country, they MUST be subject to scrutiny. If you don't like it move to North Korea, you have no rights there. - Nachoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It is amazing that so many Neocons think that by torturing innocent people without trial, the USA can be a "shining beacon of democracy".
It is like saying "Hey fat people of the world, look at my healthy way of life" while eating 10 BigMacs. - ZenMojo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Pabster. Pabby, come on. Pabs. An enemy combatant is not by definition someone picked up "off a battlefield." If they were, then they would have tried them with a crime by now, wouldn't they? They would be Prisoners of War, now wouldn't they? No, instead they are suspected enemy combatants being held without trial.
What you have are a bunch of people suspected of conspiring against the United States, not a bunch of guys with guns subdued in combat and tucked off to military prison. At what point do you think you started to believe the propaganda, Pabs? I'm just curious. At what point did you decide the innocent people that have already been tortured, the unknown number that have been tortured TO DEATH (at least two dozen enemy combatants in Afghanistan have died while in captivity as of 2004), had it coming? - starmanjones, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11this is getting to be a pattern. republicans screw things up... democrats fix it.
carter got saddle with inflation from the vietnam war. he spent his time fixing that just in time for reagan who came in created a huge debt, "spending our way out of debt." that was the buzz phrase...
daddy bush can't do anything with it. then clinton fixes the reagan years.
now bush more of spend thrift than any other conservative spend thrift who can out spend liberal with ease. i mean... couldn't we join modern society and spend it on health care or something? do we have to look barbarians?
anyway bush just ***** up everything. embarasses our allies. starts a war. now... here we are again.
democrats gotta waste time fixing the republican mess... in ten years everyone will have forgotten how it got ***** up and the republicans will be blaming it on the democrats... we'll cycle back to another conservative disaster. man... if we keep letting them spend so much money on guns we'll never get a national health plan. - edverb, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"Do our enemies follow the Geneva conventions when they behead us? No they don't so why should we?"
Because we're better than they are. We are a country of laws, which is a force for justice. We are fighting to preserve these democratic values, not to stoop to their barbarism.
"No, wrong. The Geneva Conventions only applies to uniformed combatants"
Again, the Supreme Court disagrees.
"The President's conduct is subject to the limitations of statute and treaty" [...] "the Court held that Common Article 3 of Geneva applies as a matter of treaty obligation to the conflict against Al Qaeda."
link: http://www.scotusblog.com/movabletype/archives/2006/06/hamdan_summary.html - andreo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8@pabster:
You know what Pabster? You can go find a huge dick to suck on. You ***** aren't in power anymore and the scare tactics don't work anymore.
The American public is tired of sitting around wringing its hands and taping up their house with black plastic and duct tape waiting for the dirty bomb to go off.
Instead of your party moving this country forward they instead eroded our rights for our own good. And enough people broke out of their daze on election day to vote you bastards out of office. I hope more of you are kicked out in 2 years. And I hope your party gets its act together before they are elected back into office.
Your ranting, name calling and fear speeches mean nothing now. So go back to lgf.com where you belong. - omnithought, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Keep in mind that they were basically bullied into their votes of agreement. I know that doesn't excuse their hypocrisy, but at least they're doing what they can now to reverse it. After all, when McCarthyism begins to rear it's ugly head again, people get terrified.
I say McCarthy is dead and we should keep him and his ism that way. - Corrosionx, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9These aren't "liberal" ideals, they are as conservative as they get.
Real conservative, not "big-government conservative" like you see today. - thegovner, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10The stuff that the Bush Admin passed is the stuff of nightmares... but you know what? He is a smart mofo. That Military Commissions Act basically got him off scott free of any charges for war crimes. The truly sad part is that people believe the terrorists are overseas... when in all reality there here at home... running our country. The values and principals that America stood for were destroyed with the flick of a pen and only one man (Senator Leahy) stood up to speak out against it. We should commend him as well... seeing as to how that law makes the president able to arrest, torture, and punish him w/o trial...
- starmanjones, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6>You, sir, are an idiot.
well, no... i’m not.
>Even the most extreme liberals rarely would try to defend that Peanut
>Farmer Carter. He should have stuck to farming peanuts. Clearly he
>knew more about that than Presidential affairs.
even the most extreme liberals? i don't understand your point. is it that only extreme liberals like jummy? the way you say that it leaves the impression that thinking jimmy is ok puts you at some high plane of extreme liberal? what does that mean? who are you talking about?
are you refuting the observation that the inflation he had to deal with was the result of the vietnam war? surely not. thats pretty basic stuff. war production. non consumer production.
you go back and listen to jimmys fire side chats... the one when he is wearing the sweaters. what he said is prescient. its all come true.
and i gotta tell you that whole thing where reagan and bush did the deal with iranians to manipulate the election really looks bad. that current guy, in iran... he was one of the people holding those hostages. looks like a bad move cause he's back biting us in the ass again. damn stupid conservatives never learn.
>Carter is a disgrace to the office of President.
say what you want. but carter was the most honest most honorable president this country has ever seen.
hadn't you better find a rock to crawl under? oh, oh... how many conservatives can crawl under one rock!
i don't know! but we'll find out! :D - venom8599, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7In Soviet Russia, Habeas Corpus restores you!
Well, it would've, ya know, if it would've existed in Soviet Russia. - omnithought, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8
The whole premise of wiretapping and other infringing laws is faulty. Certainly those who would be planning a terrorist strike of a similar magnitude as 9/11 would know better than to discuss their plans online or over the phone. They would meet in person or have damn good encryption. So, there's no sense in monitoring everyone's calls and emails. Anything that's wasy to monitor would obviously be avoided.
The laws we had in place before the Patriot Act still gave enough power to catch terrorists. It also prevented the general populace from being designated as enemies just because they voice or print dissent. Dissent is highly patriotic, for it keeps the balance of power in check, as it should. - UGM2099, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Democrats on the side of the terrorists? What an interesting idea, why don't you tell us more!
/s-s-sarcasm - ZenMojo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6The Geneva Convention applies as a matter of course to all human beings who are given within its article humane treatment regardless of position in the war. Separate sections of the treaty are designated for civilians and uniformed combatants. Humane treatment, however, is separate from both of these sections and refers to the treatment of all people in wartime.
The idea of an "enemy combatant" is a legal fiction used to address the concept of humane treatment in the Geneva Convention and the lack of reference in our own laws to an enemy that our President insists we have never fought before. What a closer look at our laws proves, however, is that "enemy combatants" are already covered and given detailed descriptions of expected treatment. In fact, terrorists of all shapes and sizes are given the rights of citizens under our jurisdiction. We DO NOT have separate laws for foreign criminals and domestic criminals committing the same crimes.
There is no doubt what George W. Bush is attempting. By taking the role of the FBI out of criminal investigations and giving more power to military action, the President is attempting to create a police state. There is no subtlety in his movements. There is no grace in his execution. He has removed posse comitatus, which hinders his ability to place the armed forces on domestic soil. He is attempting to remove military forces given to the authority of the states to the power of the federal, centralizing all military power under his own command.
He declares that we, as a country, do not commit torture and then carries out acts which can be nothing but torture. When he is discovered, his Secretary of Defense rewrites the book on military conduct and then classifies a section on those acts which can be nothing but torture while reserving the right to carry out those acts which can be nothing but torture to the CIA. As the media wonders what the CIA is doing exactly, the President sends captives to countries that openly practice torture.
This alone is disturbing. It grows more disturbing as we discover that several of these men are innocent, that our President is incapable of convicting others of any crime, and that even more of them will never have the chance to plead their case as their corpses are dragged from these prisons and the words "Natural Causes" stamped on their death certificates.
George W. Bush has made a mockery of law and order, a mockery of civil liberties, a mockery of humanity, and if I could face him down today I would ask him politely but firmly in the words of Joseph Welch, "Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?" - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9in other digg politics news, democrats are angels, and have never supported evil republican bills like the patriot act. democrats never bought into any of the terrorist paranoia, they were totally immune because liberals are smarter than everyone else. now that they are in power america is the best place ever, whereas before it was a fascist empire.
damn, i mean I don't exactly love republicans, but the same people who say that it's retarded to believe the republicans' lies are the ones that are buying into the democrats' promises that they make just because they won elections and are desperate for power. - thegovner, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Amen. You state a very good point but what is sad is that it's easier to bury your head in the sand (Ostrich syndrome)
- fredkreuger, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Innocence is a technicality.
- omnithought, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Yup. People shriek "Godwin's law! You lose!" anytime there's a comparison to Hitler....but if the comparison is actual, it should stick. The types of laws we are passing, and the type of mindset being engendered are nearly identical to those created by Hitler as he was building his Reich.
- Platypus3333, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Pabster-
More like "our government, comprising the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches, is designed to preserve the rights of individuals." - sooperdooper, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@ pabster
How can they "get off on a technicality," exactly? It's not like they're part of any legal system or anything.
You insufferable dumbass. - WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5...and a lot of blood on our hands, and enemies at every turn!
Who wants to live like that? Only senseless animals! - gendjinn, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6For all those who think suspending Habeus Corpus is a good idea go read about the success the British had with internment in Northern Ireland. Not only were most of those rounded up not Republicans it ended up recruiting thousands of relatives, friends and neighbours into the IRAs. When eventually those interned were released the torture and abuse they suffered during internment propelled them into actively or passively supporting the IRAs.
For those who think torture is a good idea try reading up on the Birmingham 6, the Guildford 4 and the Maguire 7. These guys had confessions beaten out of them. They spent decades in prison and one died there. Not only were they completely innocent their cases recruited hundreds into the IRAs.
These actions not only repudiate the ideals we cherish they are also ineffective and counter-productive. -
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