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123 Comments
- philosophyzombi, on 04/22/2009, -1/+92FTA
“But a lawyer crafting an opinion has a duty of candor that requires that he identify and distinguish adverse precedent that a court might consider controlling. In essence, Yoo was free to articulate whatever cockeyed theories he wanted. He was not free to suppress the existence of Supreme Court authority that went in the opposite direction. But that's exactly what he did.”
This should really come as no surprise. That the OLC under the Bush administration wrote flawed legal opinion to support untenable practices is practically common knowledge. The real question is what are we going to do about it?
FTA
At the trial of the Texas sheriff, Scott Woodward, an Assistant U.S. Attorney, said the prisoners who were subjected to waterboarding were not “model citizens” but they were still “victims” of torture.
No one is arguing that those who were tortured (waterboarded) by the CIA were "model citizens." But that really doesn't matter. Torture is illegal and immoral regardless of who is under the towel. - Echota, on 04/22/2009, -3/+79This is some excellent reporting!
“This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning,” the complaint said, which referred to the technique as “water torture.”
And because it was illegal,the sheriff and his depities were convicted.
Let it the same stand for the Bush administration! - tynos, on 04/22/2009, -3/+64Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime
Judge Evan J. Wallach
The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.
After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war.
More recently, waterboarding cases have appeared in U.S. district courts. One was a civil action brought by several Filipinos seeking damages against the estate of former Philippine president Ferdinand Marcos. The plaintiffs claimed they had been subjected to torture, including water torture. The court awarded $766 million in damages, noting in its findings that "the plaintiffs experienced human rights violations including, but not limited to . . . the water cure, where a cloth was placed over the detainee's mouth and nose, and water producing a drowning sensation."
http://tinyurl.com/22vvrc - freedomjoe, on 04/22/2009, -6/+58Excellent work. Progressives: Please contact Eric Holder AG c/o the DoJ and let him know that torture has been prosecuted before!
Department of Justice Main Switchboard - 202-514-2000
Office of the Attorney General - 202-353-1555 - tynos, on 04/22/2009, -3/+48
The definition of torture includes severe mental pain or suffering.
http://tinyurl.com/ckrwog
Severe mental pain or suffering would, and must, include fear of imminent death and (lasting) psychological trauma.
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Hearing on U.S. Interrogation Policy and Executive Order 13440 September 25, 2007
Statement by Allen S. Keller, M.Associate Professor of Medicine, New York University School of Medicine Director, Bellevue/NYU Program for Survivors of Torture Member, Advisory Council, Physicians for Human Rights
"Water-boarding or mock drowning, where a prisoner is bound to an inclined board and water is poured over their face, inducing a terrifying fear of drowning clearly can result in immediate and long-term health consequences. As the prisoner gags and chokes, the terror of imminent death is pervasive, with all of the physiologic and psychological responses expected, including an intense stress response, manifested by tachycardia, rapid heart beat and gasping for breath. There is a real risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack or damage to the lungs from inhalation of water. Long term effects include panic attacks, depression and PTSD. I remind you of the patient I described earlier who would panic and gasp for breath whenever it rained even years after his abuse."
http://tinyurl.com/4eb44c - clvngodess, on 04/22/2009, -2/+46FTA: “We make no bones about it. The victims of these crimes are criminals,” Woodward said, according to a copy of the trial transcript.
This is such a tired argument, good violence over bad violence. It's still violence. A good kill versus a bad kill. It's still killing. Good crimes versus bad crimes, it's still crime. White collar versus blue collar crimes, same thing --as if class distinction makes a difference. WTF?
And Govsucks, which collectivists are you addressing, exactly? - waningdelusion, on 04/22/2009, -1/+42Weren't US soldiers prosecuted during the Vietnam war for waterboarding?
- angeladtao, on 04/23/2009, -2/+41I was so shocked when I first read this article that I had to walk away for a few minutes before I could think clearly enough to comment. If there is already a legal precedent Within our country's own justice system with people imprisoned in our federal prisons by the DOJ for the very same crime that the Obama administration so far has given the Bush administration a pass on, then the message truly is that
anyone in the presidential administration, including cabinet officials, really is above the law! There is no putting this genie back into the bottle once these crimes are given a pass - and that's what it would be - a pass. We will never again be able to trust that our government respects and is subject to the law as regular citizens are. How many years of that kind of attitude will it take for our country to degenerate into a democracy in name only? - LeftieLucy, on 04/23/2009, -5/+38Who's burying this & keeping it from the front page? It's the truth.
- AgeofMastery, on 04/23/2009, -1/+32Not sure, but a couple of Japanese soldiers were hung after world war 2 for waterboarding US troops.
- kid625, on 04/23/2009, -1/+23Police in Texas... what's next?? shooting by police in Texas? I don't understand why it is hard to not execute waterboarding...
- Phylter, on 04/22/2009, -17/+37Go back to 19th century Tombstone where you belong.
- wineinc, on 04/23/2009, -0/+20Yes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Vietnam ... - novenator, on 04/23/2009, -5/+23Why doesn't this surprise me anymore? Where did things like this cease to shock me? When did this desensitization occur?
- inactive, on 04/23/2009, -3/+18I'm glad that a legal precedent has been set, and I hope the DOJ really does go after BushCo. But in the end I worry that it will just be a waste of tax money. I hope I'm wrong. Trust me.
- novenator, on 04/23/2009, -3/+16congratulations hans, you win the award for stupidest comment on the thread
- AgeofMastery, on 04/23/2009, -2/+15Make me tough guy.
- tynos, on 04/23/2009, -1/+13Why would you have to be there to know it's true?
It's called documentation.
If being there were the standard of evidence, we'd have no legal system and no academic disciplines e.g. history and science, since you couldn't give any credence to data you hadn't seen with your own eyes.
As for the Texas Sheriff case, which I assume you're not sure happened, it's discussed here by Judge Evan Wallach here
http://tinyurl.com/23weeq
and here
http://tinyurl.com/2s73yx
NPR mentions it here
http://tinyurl.com/5m6kga
The NYT did a story on it here. You have to pay to see the whole thing
Ex-Deputy Tells Jury of Jail Water Torture
http://tinyurl.com/dxbd5p - eco57, on 04/23/2009, -2/+131) Values are immutable - they don't change with context.
2) Torture doesn't work.
3) Your anencephalic party has driven this country off the ***** cliff by increasing its dependence upon foreign nations, neglecting its infrastructure, making zero plans for future prosperity, and finally, robbing it blind through its financial institutions.
So STFU and get the Hell outa the way while we patch it back together. - scottknick, on 04/22/2009, -5/+16In other words, imaginary creatures, like fauns.
- lordmike, on 04/23/2009, -1/+11Around November, 2004...
- ZZeke, on 04/23/2009, -1/+11...as if things were any different before Obama. Please, give me a break with the partisan *****.
- novenator, on 04/22/2009, -6/+16wtf are you blathering on about collectivists?
- draculthemad, on 04/23/2009, -4/+14
The festering half-wit lawyers who gave them the hook to hang this all on need to get the book thrown at them. This is the kind of pandering to the paycheck that lawyers are supposed to be above. It is the reason they have things like the Bar and ethics committees for. Disbar the lot of them, and start a federal prosecution against them for abrogating their oath to defend the constitution. - biotch, on 04/23/2009, -4/+14what would you call people who willingly give their gov. money because it allows them to partake in a myriad of other benefits including clean water, roads, protection, emergency dispatches, etc... and/or who believe that this system of gov. has the ability to right its wrongs and/or that the positive impacts from this gov. outweigh the negative impacts?..
Are those people allowed to mount a voice against torture? - Lawofnations, on 04/23/2009, -2/+11As Bush's adviser, Rice verbally approved CIA's request to torture/waterboard.
- tynos, on 04/23/2009, -0/+9Lucy, shout it out to your network. That might help :)
- biotch, on 04/23/2009, -6/+15First of all its not theft. You are free to make your money elsewhere not enjoying the freedom, protection, and social services we all chip in for.
Second if it was theft, why does guilt of one crime mean we should turn a blind eye to any others?
As for myself, Im all ears if you have a better suggestion for how we can obtain the money needed to run the government we all vote for.
If you disagree with how things are run, then if you can gather enough support for your belief, things will change. If not, you are free to take up your business elsewhere. - novenator, on 04/23/2009, -4/+12*****. Torture is a war crime regardless of nationality.
- novenator, on 04/23/2009, -1/+9I think you hit the nail on the head.
- neognostic, on 04/22/2009, -16/+24@govsux, what mind altering drug are you using?
- novenator, on 04/23/2009, -1/+9*****
- inactive, on 04/23/2009, -0/+8I see nothing but a bunch of childish ad hominem in here with no good counter arguments.
Thanks for proving Govsucks right with your blather folks. - ProLick, on 04/23/2009, -0/+7More contact info here:
http://www.usdoj.gov/contact-us.html
Email:
AskDOJ@usdoj.gov
I recommend something short and unambiguous that links back to the article, like:
There is a DOJ precedent for prosecuting torture, including waterboarding. Please prosecute our domestic enemies:
http://digg.com/politics/DOJ_Had_Prosecuted_Texas_ ... - Seminarian, on 04/23/2009, -6/+13Evil corporations have done plenty of evil things. That's not what this article is about.
If people behaved rationally, and in their true best interests, and if somehow the marked could count all the costs of every economic activity, and allocate them fairly to the ones who generated them, then anarchy would, indeed, be the best of all possible worlds. But neither of those conditions exist in the real world.
The answer to bad government isn't "no government," it's better, more transparent, more accountable government. I'm not jumping on any bandwagons saying we have that with Obama, but he's a darn sight better, on a lot of fronts, than McCain/Palin would have been.
I don't see how it's stupid to complain of an alleged "government of laws" being run by lawless, tyrannical traitors, and calling for them to be subjected to those laws. The criminals are trying to justify their behavior by claiming it was for the "common good," but, luckily, there is no such justification under the law. The truth will out, and justice will be done. I'm sure of it. But I will also keep demanding it. - novenator, on 04/23/2009, -1/+8If a military prison in another country does not count as US territory, then I guess you also think John McCain is foreign born?
- ZZeke, on 04/23/2009, -2/+9We've always had a two-tiered justice system. One system for the rich and powerful, and another one for the rest of us. This has been true since before we were born, and it'll be that way after we die. This is just one highly visible example of how justice is truly carried out in this country, for the most part.
We're not really a democracy to begin with, we're a constitutional republic - who's fundamental principles have been systematically deteriorated by the very people we entrust to uphold them. - reed311, on 04/22/2009, -14/+21Guys, he's high on Ron Paul. Just ignore him. They are all like that.
- joeditto, on 04/22/2009, -18/+25@govsux....You read too many Comic Books
- RonPauls, on 04/23/2009, -2/+9"Yet the crooked cops keep railroading Texans into jail and Paul's followers don't do anything."
You mean like break in jail and do a prison break? Every time there is a cop abuse story, it is the libertarians who push the story on digg and elsewhere. - wineinc, on 04/23/2009, -0/+6Judging from Ron Paul's popularity, libertarianism must be an especially potent political force in Ron Paul's congressional district and much/most of Texas. But why have Libertarians not elected enough sheriffs, judges, county supervisors, and city officials to eliminate constitutional offenses in that district? Doing so would effectively bust a lot of people out of jail. The Libertarian's failure to reform Ron Paul's district, let alone Texas, strains the credibility of Libertarian claims that they protect everyone's individual rights while reducing the federal role in local matters. How am I not to suspect that the Libertarian Party would not be as much of a step backward for American democracy as Oliver Cromwell was for English parliamentary democracy? When the Libertarians do not effectively protect people's rights in a locale where they should have sufficient influence, how can I conclude they will hold to their current principles even when those principles seem inconvenient to them later on?
I'd like to see the Libertarian movement prove itself and gain stature by fixing the famously unjust Texan prison system, legalizing medical marijuana, or any other substantive Libertarian goals that are reachable at the local level. Furthermore, your polite and intelligent feedback are all right with me, RonPauls. But commenters who snipe in the manner of govsucks at all government while ignoring the benefits of people working together when appropriate for the "common good" are not helpful and will get the Libertarian Party no where with me. - le0pardess, on 04/23/2009, -4/+10@ nolibobitch. Go sit in a toilet stall with a mirror and wipe your mouth. What you say all comes out the wrong end.
- RonPauls, on 04/23/2009, -4/+10I'm not sure you understand him.
It is the collectivist ("common good") philosophy that allows torture.
" Is torture OK with strict constructionists?"
No.
"Would waterboarding be standard police procedure in the independent Texan nation that I imagine you favor?"
Dude, he's a libertarian! WTF! Of course he's not in favor of torture. If you were unsure, read his post! - jitterbits, on 04/23/2009, -8/+14If your statement is true, why don't we hear of prisoners being waterboarded or "tortured" in Norway or Sweden or France, or any other country where there is a strong safety net for the citizenry?
The reason (besides you being plain wrong) is that those governments are working for the people, much like our government should be, and as was intended. Don't let them fool you into thinking that government is the root of our problems, so we're swayed to corporatism. Once that happens, there will be little for us to do. Most of the money combined with most the power combined with most of the weapons will make us all their bitches before we realise it. - circuitz, on 04/23/2009, -0/+520 years (1980-1992) (2000-2008)
- clvngodess, on 04/23/2009, -0/+5We're not even a constitutional republic anymore. More akin to an oligarchy these days. Sigh.
- USArugula, on 04/23/2009, -1/+6If you are going to bring in articles referencing Dennis Blair's memo, be sure to post one that refers to all of Blair's statements:
“The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means. The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22bl ... - wineinc, on 04/23/2009, -0/+5@wukillabee
The Washington University Law Review disagrees with you.
http://lawreview.wustl.edu/slip-opinions/waterboar ... - le0pardess, on 04/23/2009, -3/+8Joesditto who can't think for himself: you are an ugly comic.Wipe your face as well, or start counting yourself as a fluffy one....
- inactive, on 04/23/2009, -2/+7Neocon lawyers, some of who are Neocon judges, only listen to precedents they like.
If you mention a conflicting precedent that interferes with their political grandstanding and pre-determined verdict, you go to jail for contempt of court. And don't mention the silly black medieval priest dress either. -
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