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464 Comments
- cg4et, on 12/13/2008, -23/+135For the life of me, I can not figure out why it is so bad that some blue collar workers out there are making a decent living. Is it so bad to have a job that can support a whole family on just one income?
The middle class was built on jobs like these, and we can kiss the middle class goodbye (if it still exists) if jobs like these are no longer available. - inactive, on 12/13/2008, -5/+112Here's the full memo:
From:
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:12 AM
To:
Subject: Action Alert -- Auto Bailout
Today at noon, Senators Ensign, Shelby, Coburn and DeMint will hold a press conference in the Senate Radio/TV Gallery. They would appreciate our support through messaging and attending the press conference, if possible. The message they want us to deliver is:
1. This is the democrats first opportunity to payoff organized labor after the election. This is a precursor to card check and other items. Republicans should stand firm and take their first shot against organized labor, instead of taking their first blow from it.
2. This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling.
The sooner you can have press releases and documents like this in the hands of members and the press, the better. Please contact me if you need additional information. Again, the hardest thing for the democrats to do is get 60 votes. If we can hold the Republicans, we can beat this. - Alheithinn, on 12/13/2008, -50/+137Yeah, by all means, the auto workers are the bad guys, not the fat-cat CEOs, Board of Directors, and so on. The little guys making 50-70 bucks an hour are ruining things for the rich guys and their tens of millions of dollars in bonuses. I'm sorry, but I'm a long way from convinced, and I've never been a strong union supporter. In this, I'm with the UAW.
- GrandmaSheila, on 12/13/2008, -24/+110The union workers average wage is $23.00- $27.00/hr. Don't believe the lying propaganda from the people out to destroy our last national manufacturing base, so they can blame the resulting national collapse on the Democrats!
The States represented by these lying whores in the Senate all have Japanese Auto plants, who pay their non-union workforce $30.00, MORE than the unionized plants in the North.
The South is trying to rise again, on the corpse of the domestic auto industry. - NinaOdell, on 12/13/2008, -24/+89
What the hell happened to "family values" and "compassionate conservatism"? These folks haven't bought a ***** loaf of bread or carton of milk these days.
I go to my local Safeway and food costs have almost DOUBLED for staple items like these, and that's just food - you know, the stuff we need to live?
These fat-asses obviously have never been poor, or even "middle-class" (code for folks with credit good enough to be in debt up to their eyeballs for a house, car, and kids).
So fine - sit on your fat asses and do nothing about it. I'm going to be sitting on my fat ass writing these "public servants" TODAY.
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/home/ - mabs0, on 12/13/2008, -28/+86Was this the right time to get revenge on the unions? No, not really. But what else can you expect from the GOP?
- TheTaoOfBill, on 12/14/2008, -31/+88Seriously? you don't see a problem with workers making twice as much at the big 3 than they would at Toyota?
Would posting the sales and profits of GM and Toyota convince you?
GM sales in 2007: 9,370,000 vehicles
Toyota sales in 2007: 9,366,418 vehicles
GM profit/loss in 2007: -$38,730,000,000 (-$4,055 per car)
Toyota profit in 2007: +$17,146,000,000 (+$1,874 per car)
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/12/2007-profitlos ...
Do you see what I see? GM sold more than Toyota and yet Toyota made a profit of 17 Billion Dollars and GM lost 38 Billion dollars.
Do you still not see the problem here?
GM has a massive expense problem. NOT a sales problem. And you don't see the problem with the UAW strong arming massive wages and pensions? If you know all this and still see no problem with the UAW you have something wrong with you. I'm all for workers rights and ensuring workers are properly paid and working in safe conditions. But the UAW crossed the line and took advantage of their power to sap the big 3 dry.
GM and the rest of the big 3 don't need money. They need to make major cuts to their worker's wages and benefits. If they need to file bankruptcy for that to happen then so be it. - niradg, on 12/14/2008, -10/+66They are not making $50-70 per hour! GM's labor cost- including pension and healthcare obligations to retired workers, and benefits for current workers, is in that range. Keep in mind that throughout its halcyon days, GM kept upping their pension obligations rather than increase current worker salaries. The UAW gave them the choice between the two, and GM gambled away its future at every opportunity.
- woodsjransom, on 12/13/2008, -21/+69Well it looks like the Repubs can kiss the 2010 elections goodbye.
- stonecircle, on 06/11/2009, -10/+50Here's the REAL wages of auto workers here in Michigan, as put forth by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (check by state of Michigan, then under Production Worker classification). Folks should also be aware that there are two "tiers" of wages, as well. After previous concessions, workers at Ford and GM were hired on at a substantially lower starting wage than their predecessors.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_mi.htm - rewinn, on 12/14/2008, -5/+40Workers who have good income have the time to do politics, to think about the good life, to get an education for their kids.
That's death to aristocracy, and the aristocracy fights back. - cg4et, on 12/13/2008, -13/+44$700 billion for bankers and insurance executives, but not a dime for the middle class.
That's just great. - Annihilia, on 12/14/2008, -15/+46Unions like the UAW are not part of the solution. Prior to employee protection laws unions were a necessity, but today they are an enormous burden on companies. When things like seniority are factored into the equation, a 20yr UAW worker who slacks off is going to keep his job versus an outstanding and productive 5yr worker. The extremely high compensations are also mind boggling. People should be rewarded for their efforts.
Unions have their place, but the UAW is beyond a simple labor union. The union leaders have colluded with big government and basically embeded themselves into the Big 3 so that drastic changes are impossible. It has literally pit employee against employer and that, my friends, is not the way things should work.
Those of you who are commenting and digging up/down should really read about the subjects in question from all points of view rather than giving some uninformed opinion based on perception. - soomprimal, on 12/14/2008, -10/+40Let inferior business models die. The 'capitalism' that so many people claim to believe in doesn't work unless you allow it to work. Boo hoo about the workers and the union but why should I have to pay for their contract when I didn't enter into it? If they want to keep their industry afloat in the United States, they too are responsible for reforming their side of the model to make it work. To me, the whole "union busting" angle is a distraction from the core principles.
- algaeturd, on 12/14/2008, -23/+51The real problem is that many Americans are dumb and uneducated enough to buy the anti-union *****. When you take THE ONLY ORGANIZATION left that protects the middle class labor movement and convince MIDDLE CLASS Americans to somehow see them as evil (as the far right has fought to present them) then something is wrong.
Think about it for one small ***** minute: You have all these idiots who have cried about the death of the middle class and those are the same ***** people who are trying to kill unions. Correlation? Most definitely. Who else out there will be a voice for the american worker? Who do you think made it possible for American workers to earn decent, fair wages and get things like health care and benefits.
I swear to god the American people are too busy shooting themselves in the foot and slashing their own throats to ever fix any of the things wrong with this country. I mean, *****, they'd fix it and then ***** it up the very next day if they were ever to snap out of it. - JenniferInMO, on 12/14/2008, -7/+35First of all, it's a loan. Secondly, they have never been in control of the company's finances. Labor costs for auto makers are less than 10% of gross profit which is not at all out of line. Because of union contracts management has fixed labor costs and should plan for that. In addition, the unions have made significant concessions 3 times since 2000. Middle class wages should be going up, not down. They have been declining for years.
This whole thing about the unions being at fault in ANY way for the auto makers is a lie and it is just an attempt to bust the unions. They serve as a check on big business and there are few industries anymore which have unions to keep them in line. Unions are also big political voices for their members and the unions did not support the GOP. So who is the real culprit here? What are the real motivations for the GOP putting up a block to a $15 billion loan as opposed to a $700 Billion free for all for their white collar buddies? - MarciaJ720, on 12/13/2008, -13/+38Thank-you. The $70+ figure includes some ambiguous number that includes every worker's pension, current and future. It is a fictitious number the main-stream-media keep spouting off.
If the Big 3 fail, the U.S. taxpayer is going to be paying for their Pensions for the next 30 years. How is that helping to save the taxpayer money? - inactive, on 12/14/2008, -3/+28Wow, wasn't it in an earlier bailout thread that people were all over the UAW? It's been a combination of bad management as well as the UAW that led to this. Both sides get the blame.
- novenator, on 12/13/2008, -14/+39your children will thank you when they are working 14 hour shifts in factories with no safety regulations
- TSK05, on 12/14/2008, -21/+46Oh God. We're back to bashing Republicans and supporting the auto bailout. Digg flip flops more than John Kerry!
- yosserhughes, on 12/14/2008, -0/+23If you are a working person and your work-week is 40 hours, you can thank organized labor for that. If your workplace is safe, if you are provided with PPE, if the machine you operate has a guard, and if you have access to MSDS, you can thank organized labor for that. If you have health benifits and paid vacation time, you can thank organized labor for that. If you were injured on the job, unable to work and you weren't fired on the spot and replaced in two seconds flat, you can thank organized labor for that as well.
All these things and much more are the result of a long and hard struggle by your farthers and grandfathers to achieve a living wage and a safe working environment. It wasn't easy, it took many years and a lot of sacrifice to get the benifits that you enjoy today, yes organized labor has its faults but dont be so quick to call for its disbandment.
When OSHA is just a footnote in history, when your children are working a 60 or 70 hour week in third world conditions, when the GOP has finally achieved the destruction of the unions so long dreamed of, you can look back at this time and shake your heads in disbelief as to how the rich and powerfull could get the working people of America to turn on themselves and destroy the only real protection they have.
And for the record, I'm not a member of a union, I'm self employed. - Batfishy, on 12/13/2008, -9/+32stfu with your $70 dollar an hour lie. It's been debunked over and over. Do you watch the news?
- sodade, on 12/14/2008, -3/+24"and GM gambled away its future at every opportunity"
Yehaw! That's the (new) American Way. Maximize today's profits and ***** tomorrow. - uselessexpert, on 12/14/2008, -15/+36I know in digg land I'll look like the bad guy, by the UAW is at fault as much as the CEOs themselves on this one.
The big 3 have not been able to compete not just because of bad products from the past but also because of the UAW sticking it to them with ridiculous labor contracts that in average it adds up to almost $30 more than the rest of the competition.
And now, the unions are not willing to give concessions?
***** 'em! I hope they all go down the with the big 3.
Enough of this hand out/bail out *****. Let the Big 3 file for bankruptcy protection and tell the unions to go ***** themselves!!!! - JenniferInMO, on 12/14/2008, -9/+30You are watching too much Faux news and talk radio.
First of all, it's a loan. Secondly, they have never been in control of the company's finances. Labor costs for auto makers are less than 10% of gross profit which is not at all out of line. Because of union contracts management has fixed labor costs and should plan for that. In addition, the unions have made significant concessions 3 times since 2000. Middle class wages should be going up, not down. They have been declining for years.
This whole thing about the unions being at fault in ANY way for the auto makers is a lie and it is just an attempt to bust the unions. They serve as a check on big business and there are few industries anymore which have unions to keep them in line. Unions are also big political voices for their members and the unions did not support the GOP. So who is the real culprit here? What are the real motivations for the GOP putting up a block to a $15 billion loan as opposed to a $700 Billion free for all for their white collar buddies? - shaka776, on 12/14/2008, -3/+23I think they are both part of a corrupted machine. My parents were both Union members (dad with Ford) and the corruption at the local union level(local stewards and officeholders) was no greater and no less that what we see going on with the CEOs of today.
"Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
G. Orwell - smacksaw, on 12/14/2008, -3/+23I like how you think that there's a difference between unions lobbying Democrats and legislating the country to their advantage and corporations lobbying the Republicans and legislating the country to their advantage.
If you're really objective, admit they both suck, they're both corrupt and neither one of them has your or my best interests in mind and either would screw us in a heartbeat if it made their lives better. - smacksaw, on 12/14/2008, -14/+33That doesn't "prove union busting" as you so sensationally wrote in your headline. Instead it says that this person thinks the Democrats and unions are in cahoots. Furthermore it says that the Democrats are going to attack the Republicans and that the Republicans should strike first to control the debate.
Whether or not I agree with your premise, I must point out the facts, which are that the memo doesn't support your conclusion. And therein lies the problem with bloggers as compared to objective journalism.
And while this would hurt the UAW, I don't recall any language in this bill about outlawing unions. - TheTaoOfBill, on 12/14/2008, -20/+37Wow apo.
You sure destroyed my argument with your amazing sarcasm skills. What was I thinking going up against you with sales figures and finance stats when you have the ability to be sarcastic!
My position is NOT an anti union position. It's an anti UAW position. And yes. The UAW does have a lot of power. Because of people like you who can look at the numbers and still automatically assume the big rich CEOs are the bad guys and the hard working blue collar union workers are the good guys. They have political power. And they use it to go on strike for more benefits even as recently as a year ago as the big 3 were posting huge losses. - cardgame, on 12/14/2008, -33/+50It is obvious that ALL liberal ( well maybe just the ones in this forum) need an education in economics. just because the hourly wage paid to the employee is $26-$28/hr, GM must still incur a cost for hiring them. The average company in america spends between 1.5 and 1.7 times the hourly rate in costs for each employee such as health care, retirement and other federal taxes. Just because the employee get only a fraction of the hourly rate, the company MUST still incur the TOTAL cost. GM's TOTAL hourly cost per employee IS $70/hr. The employee gets $28 of that. With toyota and other car companies at $50/hr, you can see the immediate disadvantage for the Big 3.
So what is GM et al left with to be competitive. Less expensive cars to make. well that requires cheaper materials that don't pass the CAFE and other standards. Less expensive labor costs. well this thread is a perfect example of where that is going, nowhere. less expensive management. This is one area that could happen, but it is no where near enough to make GM competitive so it still doesn't fix the problem. Eliminate their debt. well the big debt they owe is pensions and factories. Pensions can go to the government with a loss to the pensioneers and less efficient factories can be closed. Both results in lost jobs and still doesn't fix the problem, but it sure helps. Now what do you think this forum would look like with your comments if GM was to sell off a bunch of plant, firing thousands of employees and selling off pensions to the government pension fund. The cat calls would be deafening
truth is the ONLY option is bankruptcy. retool the companies from the ground up. restructure labor, factories, car designs and management. But does that end the car industry in america? hell no. Obviously the japanese companies would benefit and hire the laid off workers. Other foreign companies like renault and peugeot are looking for opportunities to get in on the american market. TATA of india wants in and then there are the 30 or so AMERICAN GREEN car companies emerging on the scene all who need workers.
Its time for a major revamping of the auto industry just like the Steel industry of the 70's. remember when we said there is no longer a steel industry in America. Not any more. it retooled, modernized, customized and found areas where it could be competitive. guess what, the American Steel industry is back and back strong. time for the auto industry to have the same cleansing. - BrandonEagan, on 12/14/2008, -9/+26So has anyone else noticed that the sender on this message is redacted? And that there is not even a claim that it came from the GOP? I read someone elsewhere implying that it was sent by a lobbyist.
Basically, I could send an email to the GOP saying "Please exterminate babies! We really hate babies. Let's exterminate them" and then send it to the press, say "look at this GOP action alert," and it would be hailed as some sort of Republican secret memo?
Ridiculous... - rcook18, on 12/13/2008, -5/+22I do not believe that was the intended message.
- rewinn, on 12/14/2008, -16/+33The GOP is doing "Disaster Capitalism" - whenever there is a disaster, whether natural or man-made, it's an opportunity to cram their programs through. The financial collapse due to financial speculation is just a chance to kill off the American middle class, and they're taking it. No news here, except that the unions are fighting back.
- inactive, on 12/14/2008, -6/+22Hongqi12--
I saw your post on the other thread on the GOP union-busting. You're buying into the $70-an-hour myth. Do your homework:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=1026e955 ...
In addition, Jen's right. We do need the unions to keep a check on big businesses. If it were up to them, they'd paying the workers minimum wage. The unions are the only voice the workers have to fight the wig-wigs and make sure they are paid fairly. I don't understand why so many poor and middle-class people are opposed to that. Would you really like to see the rich get more power than they already have? - cardgame, on 12/14/2008, -15/+31Its lesson time again:
My brother-in-law, A union plumber working for a union sanctioned company. he is in management at the company. He is very good at his job and has from time to time taken a side job to make an extra buck. He was penalized by the union when that was found out. He was in effect beat down for providing a non union sanctioned work to customers without union labor. His company almost fired him.
My cousin, an EX-union plumber, gave up his job and benefits, went into debt starting his own business. he broke with the union. he cannot hire union workers which he is ok with, but he also has trouble sometimes with parts suppliers that are pro union. He has struggled but has become successful.
My brother-in-law spends half is time trying to get union workers to actually show up for work. My cousin has to turn away business because the quality of his work. My brother-in-law's company doesn't pay for vacation, that is covered by the union and there are restriction on when and under what conditions it can be taken. My cousin's company has employee shared ownership in the company, considerably better benefits and employees working hard at a better wage then my brother-in-law's company.
Now explain again why it is that unions are good for the worker. their time has passed. they have now become what they fought against when they started. - brickbat, on 12/14/2008, -12/+27With cost analysis skills like that you should be working on Wall Street.
Lets look at what expenses might be included in those cost numbers;
1. Management salaries
2. Marketing costs
3. Health Care costs
5. Consultants (my favourite)
There are so many differentiators that could be included in those numbers but YOU with your crystal ***** analysis ball are sure that the biggest differentiator is worker salaries. Go back to your little cave and come back with some proper analysis or stop talking out of your ass. - CaymanCarpediem, on 12/14/2008, -4/+19They don't make twice as much. Here is a good starting point for you research (http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=1026e955 ... Here is the short version:
UAW workers average $28 per hour. Non-unionized foreign owned plants don't disclose that information, but industry estimates place it around $20-$26 per hour. Not a major difference and certainly nowhere near double. Current worker pay isn't the issue. Legacy costs associated with retiree benefits is the major drag on domestic manufacturer competitiveness.
Anyway, that is just the short version. Read the above link to get a fully picture of actual issues and problems. - USArugula, on 12/14/2008, -6/+20You think taxpayers' dollars are being spent now -- just imagine what it will be like when millions of folks who's jobs are attached to the auto industry end up on the government dole. That's on top of sky-rocketed employment rate we're already under.
Just think about that for a second -- we are experiencing dangerously high unemployment, that number is growing every week, and we're about to exponentially increase it by putting autoworkers on the streets looking for jobs in an economy that is offering fewer and fewer jobs opportunities because companies just cannot afford them. - JenniferInMO, on 12/14/2008, -7/+21Try looking at fact instead of listening to the lies floated around by the right wing media outlets.
The average union wage (which includes highly skilled workers) is $26/hr. The figure you are seeing is a myth and a lie propagated by media. The $70/hr figure averages in health insurance and pensions paid to retired workers as well as all costs related to workers like safety clothing and equipment, etc. New hires won't be paid the same health and benefits that currently retired and older union workers receive. They have been cut several times in the past 7 years. And even the $26/hr figure is declining because new hires are being paid far less than they were several years ago.
First of all, it's a loan. Secondly, they have never been in control of the company's finances. Labor costs for auto makers are less than 10% of gross profit which is not at all out of line. Because of union contracts management has fixed labor costs and should plan for that. In addition, the unions have made significant concessions 3 times since 2000. Middle class wages should be going up, not down. They have been declining for years.
This whole thing about the unions being at fault in ANY way for the auto makers is a lie and it is just an attempt to bust the unions. They serve as a check on big business and there are few industries anymore which have unions to keep them in line. Unions are also big political voices for their members and the unions did not support the GOP. So who is the real culprit here? What are the real motivations for the GOP putting up a block to a $15 billion loan as opposed to a $700 Billion free for all for their white collar buddies? - alais, on 12/13/2008, -21/+35Its not bad, but once they start paying them with taxpayers dollars its fair to want some level of competitiveness in the industry.
- Batfishy, on 12/13/2008, -5/+19Marcia - you're kidding me?!?! Fox is still reporting that number? Oh, wait, that's now news..
- MarciaJ720, on 12/13/2008, -9/+22They obviously watch FOX.
Nuff said. - C4Aries, on 12/14/2008, -5/+18Heavens forbid that some smuck who only graduated high school makes more than a college graduate! I'm a UTU member, I have friends who don't see my 50k a year job as a career because I didn't go to college. Something is wrong here, and its not only with the unions.
- ChuckDees, on 12/14/2008, -3/+15C4Aries, i think quite a few of the folks here on Digg are like this.
They seem to resent that a blue collar working class person, should make as much if not more.
Then one of the college educated tech jobs pays.
It seems like alot of sour grapes. I guess pushing pencils is hard work? - USArugula, on 12/14/2008, -5/+17See: "UAW's super-high pay a myth"
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/20 ... - Poobah6, on 12/14/2008, -3/+15From 2005
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A ...
Jobs bank programs -- 12,000 paid not to work
Big 3 and suppliers pay billions to keep downsized UAW members on payroll in decades-long deal.
By Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News
WAYNE -- Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union.
It continues... - MarciaJ720, on 12/13/2008, -7/+19Alais..... I guess allowing the Big 3 to file Bankruptcy will save the country Billions?
No. In all likelihood it will cost the U.S. Taxpayer BILLIONS in Pension Benefits that will be turned over to the Government to pay out for the next what, 30 years or so?
Letting them fail will only cost the taxpayer even MORE money.
But who am I? Obviously not a greedy little Republican Corporate whore.
GM had an electric car - politics and the Oil companies pressured them to take their prototype off the streets. Oh, and we are in Iraq for OIL and nothing else (protect our interests.....really means..... protect our oil supplies). - JenniferInMO, on 12/14/2008, -20/+32It will cost the US FAR more than $15 billion if just GM fails. So why not try to save several million jobs several thousand other businesses the cities that will go under AND an important industrial base for our country by LENDING the $15 billion.
- TSK05, on 12/14/2008, -1/+13$15 billion will carry them another couple weeks at the rate they're chewing through it.
- bnuk013, on 12/14/2008, -5/+17So without unions the Japanese car plants pay their employees more, and they have a future job . How does this show how unions are a good thing?
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