What is Digg?114 Comments
- treelovinhippie, on 10/12/2007, -10/+101I wish religion would just leave children alone.
Companies aren't allowed to market directly at children, so why should religious groups be allowed to market directly at children? - humbled, on 10/12/2007, -4/+88Thanks. I think it's a good article, too. It doesn't promote either side, and very subtly hints at the whole Pandora's Box issue with religion, education, and our government.
- slynki, on 10/12/2007, -9/+81Gee. It looks like this separation or church and state thing kinda works both ways, huh?
The funny thing is, all the non-christians who got the chrisitan fliers probably just rolled their eyes, maybe griped a little. But the christians who got the other fliers are throwing a fit. - defcon8, on 10/12/2007, -5/+62Thank you for posting this. I hope that it gets digged onto the front page.
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -6/+54I have never liked this supposed wall between church and state. I thought it was a travesty that our children are forbidden to pay homage to the one true Lord. The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
- omaryak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+36"Companies aren't allowed to market directly at children"
I wish. Ever heard of Channel One? - thomas, on 10/12/2007, -2/+32jackhole - When he said "neutral" I think he means that the article was treating both religions equally.
szelij - I think you need to take another look at the article. They part about Christians taking their kids out of the schools comes from a quote of another blog. - CoryTrevor, on 10/12/2007, -3/+31The Christian extremists (and I use that word because Jerry Falwell isn't a normal Christian. ) are just trying to get as much done in as short a time as possible. They all know that their time in the sun is limited to the Bush presidency. Do any of you think that these politicians will be using the "Bible card" once Bush isn't on TV making religion a central issue. They are only have a few more years until they fade back onto the political sidelines.... and as a Catholic, I can't wait.
- maus56, on 10/12/2007, -2/+30Who needs stale loaves and spoiled fishes when the one true Lord will provide his flock with fresh pasta and spicy meatballs? All praise His garlicky goodness!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute; where no Catholic prelate would tell the President -- should he be Catholic -- how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote; where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference, and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him, or the people who might elect him.
I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish; where no public official either requests or accept instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source; where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials, and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all."
-- John F Kennedy.
Wise words from a more enlightened time. Thanks for that link. - MrRadiks, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26Mmm Self P0wned Fundies
- amoirae, on 10/12/2007, -0/+22Hoist by their own petard.
Gotta love it. - dagonweb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21...worshippers of Cthulhu, Shaitan, Shub Niggurath, Iblis, Yog Sothoth, Ialdabaoth, Seth, Kali, Loki, Tezcatlipoca...
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+24Why photoshopped?
- JackKnife, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17For anyone "on the fence" about the issue of the separation of church and state, I ran across a speech by John F. Kennedy a while back that shows how much we've changed as a society in how we view those with religious agendas who influence the way our government represents and serves us:
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkhoustonministers.html - matthewaaron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17I am a Christian and I HATE being associated with Jerry Falwell...
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15I do hope all congregations in the area take this wonderful opportunity to get the word out: mormons, scientologists, hare krishna, muslims...
- FrankieB078, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20Awesome article. This is exactly the kind of problem people usually face when it comes to Christians and them wanting to kick your teeth in with a Bible. They cry about things like this and when the doors are open, they want to dominate.
Can't always have it your way, and I'm sure if you could I would move somewhere else, notably Mars. - waxoff, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15True, prayer groups have been able to distribute materials for a long time. However this was a new means of distribution. One which was not allowed until Ray Rakoski and the Liberty Council bullied them into it.
- Zippo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18Companies aren't allowed to market directly at children? Then what about toy companies?
I do believe religion should butt out, though. People should make decisions about their faith and beliefs when they're old enough to make logical, rational decisions.
Granted, much of the religious right seems incapable of anything rational or logical. - Yage2006, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18We will take this time to remind you to have your Cristian spade or neutered and help control the Cristian population.
Thank You - mdmadph, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13RAmen, brothers. Yar!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Well - a very good move from unitarians :)
And even if it had been made by an islamic group - i still would agree.
I don`t agree with what you say, but i would die to defend your right to say it! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Hmm, so Christian extremists are self owning now... ABOUT DAMN TIME!!!
lol
But seriously, you can't make a fit to open a forum and not expect others to use the same rules you used to get their own points across, it's either all or nothing - Karmalary, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12The text of that speech should be on the required reading list of every institution of learning in this country. Great link.
- Fascist, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16I believe that the law allows religious worship and activities when school is not in session. And also the schools have the right to disallow all religious activity, or allow all religious activity; they have no authority to decide which groups are allowed and disallowed.
- Karmalary, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Six years ago, I explored three Christian school alternatives (here in the SW Missouri area) for my grandchildren. In mathematics, physics, chemistry, computer science, biology & most other technical subjects I felt they were far inferior to what was being taught in the public schools. No child left behind? The high school level kids I talked to would have had little chance of making it in an engineering school.
Oops, meant to reply to Jeff Riddle above... - dagonweb, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12All this is excellent
Pluriformity and "weird new religions" will dillute the significance of existing monolithical religious movements. Over time every religious hegemony will water down into a fine greyish brown drab pulp of folklore, residual resentment, pop icon commerce, habit and some pangs of fear of the unknown. In such a morass of meaningless the tree of atheism can take root.
I like it very much. - slynki, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Network - The basic christian values, are in-fact basic human values. Those same values are prevalent in most societies and religions.
Why do you think "under god" should be in the pledge? It is an establishment of religion, which violates the 1st amendment. It establishes religion over non-religion. The term god in American english is not generic in the vernacular, but refers almost exclusively to Yahweh, the judeo-christian version of god. When is the last time you heard someone say "Yahweh" instead of "god". Also, the line was not part of the original pledge, but added about a century later in 1954.
Why should the bible be used for swearing an oath? How can a person who does not believe in the bible make an oath on it and be expected to keep that oath, when the pretense of swearing on it was dishonest to begin with? An honest oath made on a box of rice crispies is worth more than a dishonest one on the bible. Besides, forcing an oath on the bible would constitute a religious test of office, which is expressly forbidden in the Constitution. This also violates the 1st amendment.
Also, atheism is NOT a faith. It is a lack of belief in god(s). Nothing more, nothing less. It is NOT a belief that god(s) do not exist.
"75-80% of Americans still consider themselves Christian/Catholics by faith,"
- Your numbers are accurate with all polls and census I have seen. Although, you appear to be separating christians and catholics. Catholics ARE christians.
This also appears to be an argument that because christians are in the majority, they get their way. This assumption is wrong. America is NOT a democracy, contrary to what you may have been told. It is a Represented Republic. A democratic system that is supposed to provide protection to minorities when the majority would infringe upon them.
You may be a loyal Democrat, I would not argue that you are not. But you are far from the left. - dagonweb, on 10/12/2007, -7/+17":Companies aren't allowed to market directly at children, so why should religious groups be allowed to market directly at children?"
Its because these spreaders of the religious meme understand, consciously or subconsciously, this thing is a whole lot more infectious with children of a pre-analytical, pre-critical mindset. Once you are to old, say, beyond puberty, religious memes have a harder time latching on to your mind.
So these religion people like pedophyles, they wanna get to them while they're fresh - and turn them into themselves eventually .... - pljwebb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10The real beauty of this story for me is the fact that the Christian group in question here didn’t think that anyone else would use the channel that they opened up. Oh how short sighted they were.
- Karmalary, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14Done http://www.flickr.com/photos/66545765@N00/317020286/
- wobitnobby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Though I'm not pagan myself, I've known enough to know that those "basic Christian values" are quite universal amongst non-zealots of all religious persuasions I've known. "Do unto others" translates in paganese as "the rule of 3" which states that whatever action you start in the world will come back to you three-fold, so don't be evil. In fact, the rule of 3 covers most of the 10 commandments, what with the not hurting other people (covetousness and bad thinking counts, so I've been told).
"Honor thy mother" translates to a profound veneration of the crone, the aged goddess and her wisdom which is considered to be expressed in every woman as she ends her fertile years. Also a basic reverance for the female generative force.
Also male, for that matter. Paganism seems to value elders more explicitly for their wisdom than many other religions, I sometimes get a feel that Christians teach you to be nice to old people but not really listen to them.
Anyhow, I just don't see where Christianity gets a monopoly on all good human traits. Or any, for that matter. - jdstorer2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9All I can say is I hope they follow their own advice and "...[the] Christians ... leave public schools for reasonable alternatives (homeschooling and private Christian schools).” [Jeff Riddle, pastor of Jefferson Park Baptist Church in Charlottesville]
That would suit me just fine. - rickwebb253, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7We haven't seen the last effects of this delusionary and divisory tactic... yet! The neo-conservative Christian-right (sic) is already gearing up to try and grab more power in the 2008 elections. They're pulling out all the stops in an attempt to assert their beliefs on everyone else. So, be sure to get out there and vote against them in 2008, or this will never, ever be OVER!
- Vektuz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7This is a funny story because its really typical.
1. Some rabid religeous group pushes for their religeon to essentially be taught in schools
2. They realise that this would be unconstitutional and push for plan B which is to broaden it so it doesn't sound like they're pushing their message in particular, when in fact, that is their goal.
3. Other organizations use the same rights to do something that the original religeous group finds horrying, because they never meant for EVERYONE to have that freedom, only themselves
4. Go to step 1
Same for the whole creationist thing. Same for the whole 'anti evolution' thing. Same for intellegent design. etc etc etc... they all push some broad agenda but their actual goal is to push their specific agenda. It tends to backfire as OTHER religeons get taught too, and then there is panic. Its amusing - zerocomm, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Interesting but I was hoping for more conflict. A couple mothers complained is all?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I hate how Christian extremists always feel that they are better than everyone else and deserve special treatment. Remember those big fights about putting the ten commandments up in public places? The argument is that our nation was founded on "Christian values" (though I don't know if that's a correct term anymore with all this corruption), but they forget that this nation is only where it is today because of the various cultures that have helped build America. However, if we put a totem pole, or Buddha in front of a public building alongside the ten commandments, I think the religious right would have a fit!!
If you want more religion in your government, go live in a theocracy! I hear the middle east is especially nice this time of year. - junkyblake, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6This story makes me smile...thanks for brightening up my Friday!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@network:
It`s kinda funny: most christian rituals are surrounded around important pagan dates.
This was one of the ways how the catholic church could embrace and extend the old beliefs while also providing alternatives. So the unitarian church has a very good point there.
And if it comes to mystic: especially the catholic eastern rituals are still very, very pagan.
Another thing about 'the bible' - the current edition is just what several congerations defined, starting with a roman king... a collection of stories found usefull. Ever heard of the apocryphs? Many texts went in and out of the bible during the centuries - and many, many mistranslations. (Best example:(johannes) 'in the beginning was the word' - Nope, in greek it`s logos, which means something like 'universal knowledge' - a philosophic term well known at the time it was written.)
Ahh, and there was no real devil in the early writings - and especially not a picture for him. That came much later: the greek good pan and the pagan good (cernnunos) were used to forever associate pagan beliefs with the 'hell'. Easy calculation: belief in cernnunos = believing in the lord of the hell = death at the stake (if you were lucky).
And this all by an organization that 500AD wasn`t able to decide wether maria has been 'christodokos' - mother of the human christus or 'theodokos' - mother of the god christus.
so much for christianity.
- geoken, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I'm personally waiting for the followers of Zoroaster and Zues to take advantage of this.
- jerbaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Vouchers will only work under two conditions: 1) Any school accepting vouchers has to accept ALL children who apply, and 2) Any school accepting vouchers has to accept the voucher as payment in full.
There two conditions are necessary because it levels the playing field (which is what voucher proponents ostensibly want). If voucher schools can pick and choose which students they let in, they can accept the good ones and leave the bad ones to public schools which cannot pick and choose. A level playing field requires the same rules for everyone in the game. That means if public schools can't refuse the bad apples, neither can any other school accepting vouchers.
Accepting vouchers as payment in full is required to prevent private schools from pricing out the "bad apples" that the first condition required them to accept, and it prevents them from abusing the system by skimming. If a school can accept vouchers and then require payment on top of that, all we have done is hand private schools free public money (which is what I suspect the proponents actually want). The situation will not have changed one bit. You would have private schools that cost too much for some kids, and those kids would be forced to go to public schools.
You can bet your shorts that none of the people who claim to support vouchers to make our schools better will support them with these conditions. They know they don't want a level playing field ... they just want to make an end-run around the Constitution to rob the public coffers to fund their approved religion. - wetard57, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5“Have you ever wondered what ‘Holidays’ refers to?” reads the flier. “Everyone knows about Christmas – but what else are people celebrating in December? " tis the Fsm's work here cause we celebrate holiday just goes to show how far fsmism has spred, may there they all be touched by HIs noodly appenage
- waxoff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5We need to find someone in the school district to send out FSM fliers.
- jerbaker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6You insensitive clod! Christians hold the Presidency, all the seats of the Supreme Court, the Congress, the governorship of all 50 states, and the legislatures of all 50 states, but they ARE A PERSECUTED MINORITY! Please consider their suffering before posting.
- bemenaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Can you RTFA? In this area, they were not allowed to spread that material. In general you can, but that is normally controlled locally, so therefore, a blanket statement like yours doesn't apply.
- dgendreau, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8More like Unitarians FTW actually. Unitarians rock! :)
- lifewithout, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5And then they will turn up the whole "We've been marginalized" argument. Christianity is losing significance, but not totally within one generation.
- typo180, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Jeff Riddle's blog if you'd like his full comments:
http://jpbcstylos.blogspot.com/2006/12/happy-holidays-pagan-evangelism.html
apparently education is bad for Children and we should restrict the information they can receive so that they can't go around making up their own minds about the world. I wouldn't care if there weren't so many people who buy into this and are raising up kids who don't know how to think critically about their own beliefs. Yeesh. - slynki, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Hey, if the religious left could make as much noise as the conservative nut base, maybe a little more reason and respect could come from it. I can't respect religious belief, but I can respect anyone who understands that their religion belongs to them and them alone and can leave everyone else alone about it.
Right now their are two voices. Conservative nuts yelling loudly and atheists trying to get above the roar. Most atheists don't want to ban religion or anything, that's anti-freedom. What most of us want is the secularity that this country was intended for. If your on the religious left, please, define your stance and use your voice, before the conservative's get their way and we are forced to pay lip-service to their delusions. -
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