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168 Comments
- TomJx, on 01/24/2008, -3/+53The Lee Atwater-Karl Rove school of politics can win an election but lose a democracy. A democracy is based on an informed public, an independent press, and free speech. Their campaign techniques effectively draw a line through all those.
- polarbobbear, on 01/24/2008, -2/+42Hell, I'd say the exact same thing. I bet a conversation with Rove would be incredibly interesting. I would do it in a heartbeat. Just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean it wouldn't be fascinating. Can you honestly say if that if you had the opportunity you wouldn't sit down and have a conversation with Hitler?
- 1gunners4, on 01/24/2008, -5/+32One ***** his Secretary, the other ***** his country. Hurray for politics!
- Jibberwalk, on 01/24/2008, -3/+25I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything remotely close, but I'm nearly wrapping up my BS in Political Science... and from everything I've read, written, and heard lectured... Karl Rove embodies everything it is to be political, especially in the incredible romance of Machiavellian politics.
You can hate the man's methods and his results, but to deny that he is incredibly skilled would be ignorant. - michaelb1, on 01/24/2008, -5/+23You can't fault Bill for recognizing effective campaign strategy. Also do you think he invited him to the library becuase he wants to discuss all the issues they agree on? Their policies are polar opposites. I'm sure he wants to debate him about certain issues. They are both well read in history.
Besides, I don't see Hillary doing what Rove did in 2000. Remember this is the guy that systematically tore down a war hero(McCain) by making accusations about his military record and his loyalty (take your enemies strength and make it a weakness). Note to all you South Carolinians (or whatever you're called): YOU WERE STUPID FOR FALLING FOR THAT! - pintomp3, on 01/24/2008, -0/+15from what i understand, the gore campaign was trying to distance themselves from clinton because gore was being painted as inexperienced and just clinton lite. clinton was still pretty popular and they could have capitalized on that, instead choosing to strike out on their own. i still feel their biggest flaw in 2000 was trying to court neo cons by bring lieberman on board instead of the progressive left like nader. republicans defined themselves as being extreme right, the democrats said "we can be right wing too!"
- shahruz84, on 12/17/2008, -1/+16I think we should start putting first names in the titles whenever its a Clinton.
- cassndra, on 01/24/2008, -14/+28Bill Clinton has no shame. He and Hillary distort comments by Obama (most recently about Reagan); I wonder if he is willing to defend his comments about Rove? Is anyone surprised that Rove and Clinton/s are so similar?
- ncairns, on 01/24/2008, -10/+24Of ***** yawn.
Karl Rove has a *brilliant* political mind and he *did* do a marvelous job in the 2004 election. You aren't even trying to dispute the factuality of those statements, because you can't - you're just desperately trying to conflate Clinton's stating the obvious with his approving of the outcome and inventing some debt of loyalty to the Democratic Party which he doesn't have. - SemiSarcastic, on 01/24/2008, -3/+16Dude, you don't wanna talk to Hitler. He's just going to scream at you in German until you leave the room.
- Syric, on 01/24/2008, -0/+11If anyone would read the article, they'd find that Clinton expressed a grudging respect for his opponent, Rove. You can't not express grudging respect for Rove, for he's a master of the political game. This shouldn't reflect badly on Clinton in anyone's eyes, except perhaps to the typical Digger who reads half an article and imagines the rest according to his political beliefs.
- PeoplesChoice, on 01/24/2008, -26/+37Bill Clinton may have left the White House in a shape that hurt Al Gore and John Kerry's bid in 2000 and 2004 respectively. He didn't aggressively campaign for Gore or Kerry. Worst still, he praised Karl Rove for Kerry's defeat and invited him for a political conversation. In 2008, Bill has become an aggressive campaigner for his wife, sometimes making more headlines than the person whose name is on the ballot.
Who's Bill loooking after? His legacy or the Democratic Party? Is this Selfishness or Partisanship - kidjay, on 01/24/2008, -2/+12to deny that karl rove is anything short of a political genius is just ignorance. i detest the man. he's a maniacal lunatic but that's what wins elections.
- notque, on 01/24/2008, -5/+15He did a marvelous job if Democracy is meaningless. If public participation is meaningless. If logic is meaningless.
He did a marvelous job in the same way that p.r. people do for any war criminal. He succeeded in creating more war crimes. He shouldn't get a medal for it. - johnhummel, on 01/24/2008, -1/+10"Besides, I don't see Hillary doing what Rove did in 2000. Remember this is the guy that systematically tore down a war hero(McCain) by making accusations about his military record and his loyalty"
Except - that's what she's doing right now.
"Obama doesn't really support a woman's right to choose - he voted present 29 times!" - ignoring that Illinois law "present" means something other than "here", and that the voting was part of a method to help pro-choice Republicans defeat a bad ballot.
"Obama really isn't against the war since he voted to fund it". Just like Hilary did, because both recognized that leaving the troops under George "We don't need body armor" Bush would have been worse without funding than with.
"Obama isn't really a democrat - he said that Reagen had good ideas that he liked and he wanted to give him a big kiss!" OK, I'm exaggerating here - but then again, so did she, when he specifically said that the Republicans had ideas that moved people - evne if they were *bad* ideas, as people later found out. But instead, she and her campaign have tried to twist it to make it look something other than what it meant.
So I'm sorry, I disagree - she's doing *exactly* what Rove did in 2000 - slander the opponents with third parties (Bill Clinton, campaign members, Roberts), then go "Oh, *I* didn't say it! Why are you complaining to *me*? If it's not true, then they wouldn't have said it anyway!"
Crap like that is why I don't want to vote for her, and I'll take Obama and Edwards over her any day of the week, and twice on Tuesdays. - pintomp3, on 01/24/2008, -1/+8i don't think anyone is denying his skill. it's just he used his talent make this country worse, not better. it's like admiring the handiwork hannibal lecter.
- bowens44, on 01/24/2008, -2/+8NOt sure what you mean by 'Busted!'.
- dumpyhumpy, on 01/24/2008, -1/+7I despise Turdblossom as a person and an enabler of evil.
I commend him when it comes to playing the game. He has been an extremely successful political strategist. Honestly, how many things has GWB not done that he wanted to do? Very few things and he'll get away with everything. Ignorance is not just bliss when it comes to GWB, it's the legal defense they'll always win with. - TheSwashbuckler, on 01/24/2008, -2/+8Rove DID do an amazing job --- he put lipstick on pig and got the American people to marry it.
Why is it so hard for some to understand that bad people can do well at certain things? - NJank, on 01/24/2008, -1/+6nothing like a BS in BS
- ninjaface, on 01/24/2008, -2/+7GOVERNMENT IS BROKEN. Money, religion, and Cronieism have ruined american politics. It's not about the little guy standing for beliefs anymore. It's about the well financed, well connected, rich liar who can be popular enough with the media to
- DooM, on 01/24/2008, -0/+5To be fair Gore didn't WANT Clinton campaigning for him in 2000 - a move that he was roundly criticized for at the time and many pointed to as perhaps a reason he didn't do as well. He thought the taint from the Clinton scandals would hurt him. Oops.
- tmessing, on 01/24/2008, -1/+6How is this "busted"?
- ghandi69, on 01/24/2008, -2/+7I agree with you Polarbobbear's in the fact I think Rove has a great political mind and would want to talk to him, but you related him to Hitler is kind of a low blow.
- jmpeagle, on 01/24/2008, -1/+6so what? He is a political genius. He many be hated for his tactics, but they work. Poltics has always been and alway be dirty. They used to be even dirtier before the ease of flow of information we have today. Rivals presidential candidates have even resorted to claiming the other candidate was a serial killer, numerous illegitimate children, etc...
- polarbobbear, on 01/24/2008, -0/+5Well I guess fortunately I speak German.
- deadcrickets, on 01/24/2008, -1/+5Too bad only one of those is impeachable according to the fake conservatives running the current Republican Party.
- inactive, on 01/24/2008, -1/+5The 2 Party system is simply a Front.
It's 1 party, 2 factions. Never, never forget it.
What unifies them both is the culture of deception. Rove happens to be a master of it. - UGM2099, on 01/24/2008, -0/+4Right.. so what? I'd consider reading a biography about Karl Rove not because I like him but because he's really good at what he does. If you ignore your competition because they're doing better than you you're setting yourself up for failure.
- meese, on 01/24/2008, -1/+5Oh, Obama's comments about Reagan were that Reagan managed to bring unlike minded people around a conservative agenda, and Obama would like to do the same around a progressive agenda. (Reagan did win 49 out of 50 states in 1984!)
- satman33, on 01/24/2008, -0/+4I'm no Clinton fan, but do you know the old saying?
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. - overtoke, on 01/24/2008, -0/+4It could have been sarcastic as in "we could have a great 'conversation' [where i proceed to kick your ass.]"
- Mufonix, on 01/24/2008, -1/+5I think the point is in the hypocrisy of the Clintons being critical of Obama for speaking favorably about Reagan. Though I can't understand why Obama did that, I don't think he should have been criticized for it by the Clintons, who give praise to equally creepy people.
- ddawggin, on 01/24/2008, -0/+4Can I please get subtitles that may or may not have anything to do with what he's saying?
- altgeeky1, on 01/24/2008, -0/+4>As campaigners their only responsibility is to sell their candidate to voters. It is the responsibilty of the citizenry to inform themselves.
Hmm... campaigners are not responsible for misinformation they create, and if voters fall for misinformation they're just irresponsible? Hello.. is this you Karl?
Democracy suffers from a lot of things in the USA.. but the truth isn't one of em. - rlbond86, on 01/24/2008, -1/+4If anyone read the article, they would know that this quote is WAY out of context. The VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH says,
That's not to say Rove hasn't irritated the Clintons. Hillary Clinton uses him regularly as a foil in fundraising appeals and on the trail. And by last year, Bill Clinton was expressing exasperation rather than admiration. "I am sick of Karl Rove's [manure]," the former president exclaimed to New Yorker magazine's David Remnick.
RTFA - KyleGoetz, on 01/24/2008, -0/+3OK, to all Diggers: If you're going to post a link about a Clinton, please try and remember that we have two on the campaign trail talking with the news constantly. Please use a first name so I know who the hell I might read about to decide whether or not I care.
- Swift2, on 01/24/2008, -1/+4I agree. Gore made two big mistakes: first distancing himself from Bill, who wanted to give stump speeches for him, and he would have blown W out of the water, kept his miserable stuttering self on the defense, and incidentally, confronted the big issue that was the subtext of so much of his campaign: he'd bring 'honor' back to the White House. How'd that work out? Clinton was almost at 70% in popularity on the day he was impeached. Gore alone was less known, and many corrupt journalists loved telling lies about him. Hmm, could have used the Big Dog to lower the boom on them, huh?
The second big mistake was Joe Lieberman. I won't say anything more, but you don't have to. This was the guy whose debate with Cheney was practically a lovefest. Bipartisan hell. Whinin' Joe for Pocono.
The Clinton remark has to do with message discipline, which Rove was very good at. It's the kind of thing you say when some guy you hated died but you don't want to tell the reporter what you really think back. Remember, this is when Rove was leaving.
Incidentally, this whole "gotcha" business of isolating one quote, telling the audience WHAT IT MEANS -- when it doesn't mean that -- and then giving the opponent some phony sermon... you know the routine... it stinks, and I wish they both stopped doing it. No, Hillary wasn't dissing Martin Luther King, she was comparing the "idealist" JFK with the "realist" LBJ. No, Barack is not a fan of Reagan. He did, however, also say that the GOP was "the party of ideas" during the last 15-20 years, which means he was dissing Clinton. But anyway, none of it matters, and I hope they both grow up or I'll vote for Edwards. I haven't mailed in my ballot yet, I know that. - airwalkery2k, on 01/24/2008, -5/+8I could feel Clinton's tactics were too similar to Bush's under Karl Rove. Now I know I wasn't imagining it.
- drachasor, on 01/24/2008, -0/+3You know, crime will probably always be around too. We'll never eradicate it completely. Does that mean we shouldn't try? Does that mean we shouldn't denounce criminal behavior? Should we celebrate criminal masterminds rather than putting them on trial or trying to track them down?
What kind of person proposes that we just accept the world as-is and not strive to make it better? You seem to have very low expectations for humanity.
That said, I can certainly see how Rove was masterful in his use of underhanded and vile tactics, but that hardly means I am going to accept those tactics as acceptable behavior. No one should do the latter. - NJank, on 01/24/2008, -0/+3no, neither is impeachable. lying under oath about either, and people being able to show proof of such, is impeachable. I'm all for the proof and subsequent impeachment...
- ell0bo, on 01/24/2008, -0/+3Yes, growing up in a household that spoke more then just plain English does have it's benefits, although I'm sure my Pennsylvania Dutch would lead to some interesting interpretations.
- pintomp3, on 01/24/2008, -1/+4noone is saying he's not a genius, just that he is an evil genius.
- Hipple, on 01/24/2008, -0/+3I was going to point out that Monica wasn't his secretary exactly, but then I remembered all those all other women he had sex with. A secretary probably slipped in there somewhere.
- floridiot2, on 01/24/2008, -1/+3same deal with hitler
- LordMonboddo, on 01/24/2008, -1/+4I, too, would love an opportunity to meet with Mr. Rove. It would make it that much easier to put a bullet in his head.
- rmxz, on 01/24/2008, -1/+4Sad that people are bashing on Bill for one of the more honest things the Clintons said in this campaign. Karl Rove did indeed do his job well. Yes, he played dirty (esp. against other republicans like McCain in the primaries, IIRC). But he got his man elected; and Bill sees that there's something to learn there.
If only it were Monica and Bill running I might support them.
But Hillary? Not a chance. - oldhick, on 01/24/2008, -1/+4Whats more shocking was to watch McCain come and lick Bush's boots for it. How can anyone support McCain after that? He should have punch GW right in the face after all those accusations. He'd have my vote now if he had stood up for himself. Instead he sold his soul to Rove and Bush for this run at the White House.
- kinseyincanada, on 01/24/2008, -0/+3actually Al Gore tried to not get close to Bill Clinton because he did not want to be seen in the same light as Clinton was after the scandal
- inactive, on 01/24/2008, -3/+6Bush(vice),Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Clinton?, Clinton? WTF people?
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