What is Digg?289 Comments
- Junkyarddawg, on 10/12/2007, -11/+119Roughly 1/4 of the US forces in Iraq are mercs.
My main problem with using mercs (well, apart from the fact that it means that the state unhands its monopoly on the use of force, the only thing justifying its existence, and apart from the fact that they're more costly to field and less effective in combat than regular army) is that there is no oversight. Billions go in to the merc companies, and disappears. Is the money used effectively? How much of it is simply embezzled? Nobody knows.
Also, mercs have been implicated in a long string of atrocities in Iraq, but each report is investigated by the companies *own investigators*, and the DoJ/DoD then only too happy to accept that nothing untowards has happened. In any case, the mercs are US military personnel but not bound by US military codes of conduct, so even if it could be proven that, say, a Blackwater exec had actually driven around Baghdad and randomly shot civilians through the open window of his car just because he'd "never shot anyone with a pistol before", it's difficult to say how he would be tried. By iraqi courts? By the international war criminal court in Hague? By US courts? Military court?
By the way, that wasn't a made-up example.
As it is, the US now has a federally-funded-yet-private shadow army, answering only to the VP and president, not the congress, and which is operating without public oversight, and above any laws.
Libertarians might like this, because they might view it as the state dismantling itself, but IMO they'd be in error - it is really just a case of the state removing its military power from public scrutiny and oversight. - raynar, on 10/12/2007, -13/+108The first rule of Blackwater is, you do not talk about Blackwater.
- 0crabby0, on 10/12/2007, -7/+78It always funny that we can't seem to remember our own history...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_Agency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiel_Detective_Service_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessians
Or any Western History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_of_Gurkhas
The sky is not falling, it's just History repeating itself, again and again... - littlebylittle, on 10/12/2007, -11/+68“I’ll take your order when you’re ready.”
“Yes, I would like 5 Brigades and 2 Special Ops Groups. To Go.”
“Will that be with or without support?”
“With.”
“Did you need any tanks or special equipment with that today?”
“Umm, yeah. I’ll take 4 tanks.”
“5 Brigades, 2 Special Ops Groups, and 4 tanks. That will be 98 Million Dollars. Will that be everything?”
“Oh, can you make them all Sociopaths too?”
“Sociopaths are double the price.”
“That’s fine.”
“196 Million Dollars. Please pull forward.” - littlebylittle, on 10/12/2007, -8/+59"it's just History repeating itself, again and again..."
Except this time, it's much more sophisticated.
It may be Bush's Private Army right now, but it's for hire too.
What it really is is a private army for Corporations. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -17/+66Capitalism does everything better, including war.
- UGM2099, on 10/12/2007, -0/+35And when some Blackwater operatives got themselves in some heat it was up to our military to bail them out.
- Liam76, on 10/12/2007, -20/+44@ raynar,
Everybody knows about blackwater.
it is hardly a secret. - MYarms, on 10/12/2007, -5/+29Summary: Crazy radical Christian millionaire makes a company that trains security forces and wins all multi-million dollar no-bid contracts from the US government.
- NoHandle, on 10/12/2007, -6/+29@escheriv:
Perhaps that is because the current government did read 1984, thought it was great and put it on their mantle. Now if only they could realize it was a cautionary tale and not a how-to guide... - rhettnyedotorg, on 10/12/2007, -9/+30we have always been at war with eurasia.
- psyops, on 10/12/2007, -7/+27Won't be long until corporations replace our countries flag with their own.
We won't die for freedom, we'll die for profit. - bobcrotch, on 10/12/2007, -12/+32Good post crabby.
People are bringing up this like it's unknown and that it hasn't been happening for years.
http://www.blackwaterusa.com/ and it's not some secret society or something either, you, me, anyone could go sign up if you have the appropriate training just like any other job.
I'm sure the crazy conspiracy people will tear this one apart though.
Edit: How is it more sophisticated? It's no different than any other security contracting agency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_USA they have been around since 1996 and they aren't the only company who has been doing it. There are no laws against this and they are DoD sanctioned and are required to follow Geneva convention rules. - ender30043, on 10/12/2007, -16/+34Do people not recognize 1984 anymore?
- patrsup, on 10/12/2007, -8/+25So your thought is that if the administration changes hands in 2008 to anyone other than GW, these guys will disappear in a puff of smoke? I have quite a few friends who work for contractors over there and they do jobs that the military doesn't want to do. I am not saying this is the way it should be, I'm just asking do you think it will change with a new administration? I personally doubt it as statistically, it takes quite a bit more money to keep a soldier for a year with medical, retirement etc than it does a contractor who can do the same thing but the only cost is cash and you can dump him when you desire rather than trying to change the force structure.
Its easy to complain about the current administration, but after being around the military industrial complex for the last 40 or so years, the one thing I know is that it doesn't matter who is running the show, the "Government" (civil servants, contract managers, contract providers) will continue to be paid. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20@pitlord
uh, RTFA. problem == family of mercs killed cannot get information. why? because blackwater doesn't have to. they police themselves, and we all know what happens when people police themselves. they break rules and hide it because nobody can say otherwise. honor systems aren't too good in war, you ***** idiot. not to mention the obscene amounts of money they are literally stealing by putting each contract through the gauntlet. - sagat, on 10/12/2007, -18/+33Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty ***** fee
And if you don't throw in
Your buck o'five, who will? - Pootle4rthur, on 10/12/2007, -8/+23escheriv, it's got nothing to do with wit or cleverness
it's a valid point, that needs making, until every wakes up and realises what we are stumbling towards.
In the same way that Animal Farm was a valid and accurate warning of the dangers of state socialism, 1984 is a valid warning of the dangers of a totalitarian state based on deceit and a population living in fear
If you can't see the parallels you best look more closely - Gir53457, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15Mercs profiting from war? No ***** way!?
- Arcadian, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15Religion would probably fall under Man vs. Man. At least, that's where I'd put Man vs. Ignorance - which can be pretty damn close.
- ClosedCaption, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17Who said Clinton? Clinton is not the issue Blackwater is. I dont give a dam when they started or who they were under. Today is different than the past. Alot of things have changed
- mochaman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Here is the interview on Fresh Air with Terrry Gross.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=8992128 - 0crabby0, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Many of us here are willing to listen to your story.
Not communicating is how crazy rumors get started in the first place.
We'd like to hear about the other side -How about submitting an anonymous byline?
We'd like someone to set the record straight.
Someone needs to step out of the shadows... - Buelldozer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14Man vs Nature (Think survival)
Man vs Man (Think intertribal warfare)
Man vs Government
Man vs Corporation
That's the list of 'major' struggle types throughout history. We've cleared the first two (mostly), many places in the world are still fighting #3 and #4 is the next one up for those of us in the 'civilized' world.
Man vs Religion should be in there somewhere, but I haven't quite puzzled out where yet. - eyediggit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13@ender:
Of course people don't recognize 1984, let alone actual history. If they did, people would recognize the things going on right now and get angry and do something about it. Then again, maybe not; American Idol might be on that day. - bflfab, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15Sources on that story about the executive?
- TomforPres2020, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13My question is this: If there are privately funded, mercenary armies at the ready, and a president wants to go to war in some place, but cannot get Congressional approval, what stops him(or her) from bypassing the federal troops and using these mercs? That is almost as scary a thought as having an administration that would lie and spin everything to get a war that was unjustified and unnecessary.
- littlebylittle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"... conservative Christian multimillionaire."
Private Hired-Gun Mercenary Corporation ... Sounds like something Jesus would have supported.
http://www.christcenteredmall.com/stores/art/hollander/jesus-wept-large.jpg - tHePeOPle, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Nice red herring there pitlord. Mercs are simply escorts for the bleeding heart liberals and med shipments for innocent civilians. Right on.
- returnofmalv, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Makes me wonder what happens to these guys when there is no war to fight. Will they just start instigating conflict to pay the bills? This is a serious issue.
- escheriv, on 10/12/2007, -24/+33Personally, I'm just sick of people thinking they're so incredibly smart and/or witty for making the comparison between the current administration and 1984.
- rhettnyedotorg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10that must have been _some_ powerpoint presentation.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8You mean companies like AT&T helping spy on Americans...
- drsnooks, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"If you don't like what a corporation is doing, by the stock and make changes."
And how exactly are we meant to buy a significant enough percentage of, say, a $32bn company to make any changes?
Oh yeah, that's it - we're not supposed to. Fascism, which is what you're talking about (not used as a pejorative term - look it up, it means the union between state and corporation) is just another way of concentrating power in the hands of the very rich. - Rojer64, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7the operating word being "no-bid".
No kidding. - maggiemerc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It was!
- Pyrogen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7As stated before, he doesn't need approval, he can launch a military campaign against anyone for up to 90 days. They still contest the 90 day rule, since the legislature does not control the executive branch, of which the military is part of.
All private military contractors are governed by the UCMJ under new federal laws.
Wait till you guys find out that Blackwater is a North Carolina Company Police Department, authorized to act as law enforcement officers on private property within NC, anywhere that they own or are contracted to protect. - Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"conservative Christian multimillionaire"
I guess this camel plans on passing through the eye of a needle? - Ibanezfoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Ha... money. My friend had to buy his supplies (boots, BDUs, etc) on a military issued credit card, then he gets shipped to Iraq, kills a bunch of Arabs, gets shot, has his buddies get taken out by explosives... then comes back home to a debt collector calling because he didn't have time to pay his military issued credit card because he was busy in Fallujah getting shot at.
- crosswick, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Also, see Iraq for Sale:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6621486727392146155 - Retr0spekt, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11I think there is a fundamental problem with creating a powerful, well placed industry that requires war to make a profit. And so did Smedley D. Butler, who won the Medal of Honor twice. Check out his essay, War is A Racket sometime.
- tHePeOPle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7merrickx,
"She said she developed her opinions from the internet?!"
Perhaps you haven't visited the internet lately. Every news agency in the world releases on the internet. I've found the internet to be an incredibly valuable resource developing opinions. In the case of Blackwater, I just want to know what the ***** I'm paying for. I don't think that's an unreasonable request. - Prysorra, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6That would be the LAN party =D
- littlebylittle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"what stops him(or her) from bypassing the federal troops and using these mercs?"
Ever heard of Iran-Contra? - gardnert1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6blackwater was nothing compared to Executive Outcomes. They were a badass group out of South Africa that was responsible for putting down a lot of rebellions against legitimate governments for very little cost and manpower. Unfortunately they started diversifying, most notably into the diamond market, and scared a lot of nations as well as the UN with their effectiveness and growing economic power so the UN made them disband. It's funny, though, because when the UN took over EO's peacekeeping operation in Siera Leone (they had some had a few hundred stationed there at the request of the government) the UN sent in thousands more troops than EO had ever needed and dumped millions of dollars into the effort and promptly lost control of the situation... but I digress... EO was lead by very moral and very professional soldiers who were motivated to help stabalize their region, Blackwater is all about making money and they don't care who they have to kill to do it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Outcomes - Keach, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6What Pit are you lord of?
- littlebylittle, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"And, on that note. I'd like to tell EVERYONE HERE that when it comes to Iran, Iraq, and us... you know nothing."
Please do tell. - littlebylittle, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@bobcrotch. You seem highly defensive and you act like you know what you're talking about. You keep asking for sources. What is the source of your vast wealth of information related to this topic?
- investigence, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Have any of you actually been in the military during war? How about a deployed contractor? I have been both. The simple truth is America is a world power because we have technology, the best economy, and our huge air power (I was Army). We do not have the biggest, nor the most well-trained army. For the last hundred years our military has been trained in conventional, kinetic warfare. We are very weak when it comes to urban counter-insurgent warfare. The last few years have proven that. Yes, we do have SF and Rangers...but not very many. The rest are just not trained enough to be very effective. On top of the lack of training, the military is forced to take whoever they can get to sign up; contracting companies have the ability to be very selective in who they hire. Then there is the pay issue. How hard would you work in Iraq for $15,000 a year? How long would you be able to keep your morale up knowing that the extra $150 a month you make while deployed might get you a little closer to being out of debt? The military isnt big enough, the troops dont have much experience, they get paid nickels...bottom line - contractors do it better.
And junkyarddawg...I don't think you had even one full sentence based on fact. -
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