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247 Comments
- novaculus, on 05/21/2009, -2/+86
Actually, proper training is to shoot for center of mass, unless the target is armored. That is the easiest to hit and the most likely to end the threat posed by the target. As a practical matter, a center-mass hit is likely to cause death, but killing isn't the goal, ending the threat posed by the target is the goal.
It is a crucial distinction, but often misconstrued as "shoot to kill".
I remember how I first learned this lesson. I was a youngster, proud of my marksmanship, and spouting off about how I could "wing" a threat. My dad gave me a look he generally reserved for ***** on the rug, and said simply, "Son, a man worth shooting is a man worth killing." After I gave it some thought, I understood. I don't want to ever shoot anyone or kill anyone, but if a situation requires resort to deadly force, someone just might be killed, and there is no time for screwing around. End the threat. Then call an ambulance, if necessary. - Thuban, on 05/21/2009, -18/+65Wonder how long before we see local editorials along the lines of:
"MENTALLY HANDICAPPED MAN SHOT DOWN BY NASTY GUN OWNER."
It is Massachusetts, after all. - anonymousmedic, on 05/22/2009, -7/+52Nice to see a justified use of a personal weapon in self defense. This is reason why we need firearms in this country in the hands of responsable, capable private citizens. It's sad this man had a mental disorder that made him do this, but that doesn't justify an open season on the homeowner and his wife with a deadly weapon (Yes, a broken, jagged bottle counts as a deadly weapon.)
And before the internet toughguy crowd asks "why not just try to take the bottle away from him?", it's very, VERY dangerous and hard to unarm a person with a sharp object, let alone a man who is mentally unstable and sees everyone as a threat. It's even difficult for a person trained in close quarters combat to do it. People have to make a decision in these events to shoot or not shoot in less than 10 seconds (the time it takes to close the distance at 8 feet is less than 10 seconds for a capable assailant) - cawpin, on 05/22/2009, -3/+29The latest statistics are that 1.5 million times a year a gun is used in defense. That's incidents that are reported.
1,500,000/365 = 4109
Yeah, 5500 is probably a good number. - SammyboyKIDDAH, on 05/22/2009, -7/+33I live in England. Guns are illegal. Well you can have a shot gun if you own so many acres of land, but the average citizen doesn't. I wish guns were legal here. I'd feel so much safer knowing I don't have to have the baseball bat I have by my bed incase anyone brakes in. Infact I think it's completely wrong that guns are illegal. If you had to have a licence to own one, and they were regulated properly there would be no problem. If an army invades England, our army will go to war (with guns). On the same principle, if a person invades my land why can't I defend it with a gun?
- Phaedryn, on 05/21/2009, -3/+28Novaculus
Very well said. - casek, on 05/22/2009, -6/+31this guy did the right thing. he's alive and well thanks to his gun.
there should be stories posted about guns saving lives and not
just the criminals who use them to commit crimes. - raggsat98, on 05/21/2009, -5/+29Another News Article on the incident. http://is.gd/C5RB
FTA - Gatti allegedly banged on Duval's door at the Woodcrest Condominiums on Boston Road, entered the condo, threatened Duval with a broken wine glass and refused to leave.
Gatti was shot twice when he pursued Duval up the stairs.
According to the news release, Gatti had been suffering from depression and schizophrenia and his condition had deteriorated prior to the shooting.
- LouisCipher777, on 05/21/2009, -10/+34any guesses what the headline would be if they took the gun out of the equation?
- Jassman, on 05/22/2009, -14/+38Every day? Jesus Christ, that's 38,000 kids getting shot by their parents every week... That's 154,000 a month.
In other words, you're an idiot. - Smaulz, on 05/21/2009, -27/+49Good for them, but sorry, you DON'T shoot them in the leg first. There's a reason cops are trained to ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS go for the kill shot.
- ZenDriver, on 05/22/2009, -2/+23It is extremely important how one articulates a self defense shooting.
Rule 1, of course, is DO NOT TALK to the police. You will have a lot of emotions going through you at the time along with a huge amount of adrenaline. What happened during the incident will be a complete blur in your mind (adrenaline causes time to feel highly decompressed - what you thought was one minute of "fighting" was probably more like 10 seconds). Talking to the police without a lawyer in a criminal matter is always a bad idea, but it is ESPECIALLY bad after you've just defended yourself with a firearm.
The emotions though, cause people to naturally want to talk immediately after. IF you absolutely feel the need to run your c*@ catcher at the police, you need to remember two key phrases:
"I felt that my life was in danger."
"I shot until the threat stopped."
Do not use the words "kill," or "died." As far as the law is concerned, the fact that the bad guy is dead is SECONDARY to the use of lethal force. That the most effective way to stop a bad guy with a firearm (center of mass hits) is also the second most effective way of killing someone with a firearm (next only to cranial hits) is just a convenient fact.
So remember kids... "I fired until the threat stopped." - waitasec, on 05/22/2009, -1/+1910 seconds? I guess if thats correct if you're being attacked by a 100 year old geriatric with a bum leg.
"It is common knowledge that a suspect, armed with an edged weapon and within twenty-one feet of a police officer presents a deadly threat. Why? Because the “average” man can run that twenty-one feet in about one-point-five seconds; the same one-point-five seconds it will take that police officer to recognize danger, draw and point his weapon, and then pull the trigger. Even if the officer manages to get the shot off, and even if it hits the suspect; even if it instantly disables the suspect, the blade is going to be so close to the officer that the suspect’s momentum may continue forward with enough force for the edged weapon to end up injuring the officer anyway." - anonymousmedic, on 05/22/2009, -1/+18Could have, should have. Hindsight is 20/20. The man was able to get in his house, and back the homeowner in a corner. It's not like he went hunting for the assailant, and tracked him outside and shot him while he ran away. He was being charged at with an edged weapon. You cannot judge him for what he MIGHT have done to keep him from coming in. He did everything reasonable to protect his family, including trying to back away, according to the article, before chosing to shoot. The man even continued to attack after being shot once in the leg.
Open and shut case. - anonymousmedic, on 05/22/2009, -1/+18I wonder if the CDC counts an anectodal data, considering they are the agency tasked with these statistics. The most recent data from 2006:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/FASTATS/lcod.htm
Top Ten causes of death in the United States:
Number of deaths for leading causes of death
Heart disease: 631,636
Cancer: 559,888
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 137,119
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 124,583
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 121,599
Diabetes: 72,449
Alzheimer's disease: 72,432
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,326
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 45,344
Septicemia: 34,234
Note that accidents include deaths by accidental trauma (MVCs, Falls, Workplace Accidents and very few accidental shootings). Violent death doesn't even make it into the top ten.
But, here's the raw data for you, if you want:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_05 ...
Deaths by firearms (accidental and intentional/criminal) only account for about 1 to 1.5% of the total traumatic deaths.
So, where are those thousands being killed by firearms? - Mike17102, on 05/22/2009, -1/+17Yep, thats exactly the kind of uneducated ignorant thinking that gets gun owners killed by their own weapons.
Glad I know better. - waitasec, on 05/22/2009, -0/+15Kind of depends where you are. A lot of the states have the "you must retreat" laws. Florida and Texas are "no retreat" for property, car, or place of business.
- itsradBrad, on 05/22/2009, -1/+16Be careful what you wish for. There are many negatives that you aren't taking into consideration.
I'm a gun owner and have a concealed carry license. My view point on gun laws is and always had been all or none approach. If you regulate too heavily only the criminals will be packing. Here in the US less than 1% of the population legally exercises their right to bear arms.
The criminal population tends to be packing in much higher proportions. - ramy33, on 05/22/2009, -6/+21Guns should not be illegal. There's got to be some kind of security. Prohibiting guns will never stop criminals from being criminals. Guns don't kill people, people do.
- cawpin, on 05/22/2009, -2/+16@Sammyboy: The fact that you think a license being required is ok is why your country doesn't have them anymore. You first allowed registration and licensing and then allowed confiscation.
- anonymousmedic, on 05/22/2009, -12/+26Raging ignorance over legal and justiifed personal protective usage of a firearm in above poster.
- inactive, on 05/22/2009, -22/+36I'd criticize the MSM for not running this story, but if they ran a story every time an armed citizen used a gun to prevent a crime, they'd have to do about 5,500 stories a day.
- Bobby1978, on 05/22/2009, -2/+16"Psycho ninja breaks into home, killed by Kung Fu master"
- Kondakarian, on 05/22/2009, -0/+14despite what hollywood will show you, a shot at a peripheral limb (or head for that matter) is quite hard. It's not that many people can't hit an 8-in circle at 10 yards, it's that the circle (or leg) is bobbing and moving, you are pumped full of adrenaline and your hands are a little shakey.
There's also the consideration of what if you miss.
Do you know what your round will hit if you miss? Do you know what is behind that piece of drywall that your bullet will cut through like butter? You're kid's bedroom, maybe?
You ALWAYS aim for center of mass. It is the most socially responsible thing to do. You are removing the threat and minimizing ANY risk to anybody else's life or health. - raggsat98, on 05/21/2009, -7/+21True enough Smaulz, but this happened next door to my Uncle. He was home at the time, but somehow missed the whole thing. He's 82 and has a slight hearing problem.
Ya Think. - anonymousmedic, on 05/22/2009, -3/+16That rarely happens. More often, it's the result of irresponsable gun owners leaving their weapons in reach of children, and them shooting theirselves, or siblings/friends accidentally.
- uberduger, on 05/22/2009, -0/+13Except that in Britain, handguns used to be legal (obviously not to be carried as a concealed weapon in everyday situations) but now that they're not, the number of illegal handguns is higher than it's ever been.
If you outlaw guns, then only the outlaws will carry guns. It's stupid. - kelmaster1, on 05/22/2009, -3/+16 The fact he had a mental disorder means there are going to be tons of groups on this. They're going to try to persecute the owner for shooting a handicap person (making it seem like you shot someone in a wheelchair). Here's a fun fact: mentally unstable people are more likely to kill you.
- hardwarehank, on 05/22/2009, -2/+14"More often, it's the result of irresponsable gun owners leaving their weapons in reach of children, and them shooting theirselves, or siblings/friends accidentally."
Happens about 220 times a year, with a majority of those instances in anti-gun states. Do your research before just randomly quoting statistics you know nothing about.
"A review of the government literature reflects that the CDC reports the incidence in 1999 of accidental deaths involving a firearm among children 17 or under was 158..." - OrangeTide, on 05/22/2009, -6/+18sorry if our desire for survival offends you.
- inactive, on 05/22/2009, -6/+18Justified use of a firearm!
Gun laws only disarm law abiding citizens.... - anonymousmedic, on 05/22/2009, -2/+13I guess that people have this magical idea of a feel-good disney-esque world where nice words and flowers will stop people who are determined to do bad things to you. This man may not have been in control of his facilities, sadly, but there was nothing else this homeowner could have reasonably done to help himself and his wife without risking being killed. He was backed into a corner, trapped in his own house, and had no other choice.
- papashawn, on 05/22/2009, -1/+11Is it okay to be anti-2nd amendment but pro-battleaxes?
- BrownieMix, on 05/22/2009, -13/+23This is exactly why there should not be gun control. How are we going to defend ourselves from people like this?
- homercles337, on 05/22/2009, -6/+16LoneTroller85 is trolling again i see.
- smacksaw, on 05/22/2009, -2/+12I meant to add one thing, something you left out about why cops go for the kill shot.
When I was a victim of a home invasion robbery I was able to convince the 2 men to leave as I got the draw on them. When the cops showed up, they told me that if they came back I should shoot to kill and make sure that if they're down I finish them off. Why? Because dead men can't testify in a civil suit.
Cops shoot to kill because of liability as well. That's a product of our litigious society, I suppose... - gyrfalcon, on 05/22/2009, -1/+11Are you trying to blame the door, and not the perpetrators actions? Most deadbolts are not properly installed and could be overcome with brute force quite easily. Does your house have ANSI I rated deadbolts and strike plates? How about a vault door to keep you from society?
- Kondakarian, on 05/22/2009, -3/+13Intruder kills man then self with wine bottle. Family sues Robert Mondavi Vineyards for making unsafe wine bottle.
- imdandman, on 05/22/2009, -0/+10I agree with your assessment, however, I would say that the time it takes to close the distance of 8 feet is less than 1 second. That's a few quick steps and a lunge.
- anonymousmedic, on 05/22/2009, -1/+11Two things. One, the second amendment is fine as is. We have enough adequate gun laws in this country. The real issue here is enforcement, Enforcement of gun laws are a joke in the majority of major cities and counties.
1) 99.99% of Americans do not own Automatic Weapons. They own Semi-Automatic or Single Action weapons. The majority of "Assault Weapons" are actually semi-automatic weapons that are built to look like the military ones. The ones in private hands are usually sport and competition weapons, weapons in the hands of volunteer officers or constibles, or historical weapons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_weapon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Automatic_Weapon
2) Concealable weapons do not kill more than they deter. No statistic has ever proven they do. And the statistics I posted earlier show that gun-related death is extremely uncommon in the United States, despite what the media says, in relation to other causes of traumatic death. Lightning, Diving Injuries, and Accidental Drownings kill more people combined than concealed weapons do each year.
3) You must have never handled a gun in a hallway or tight corridor. A handgun is the best defense in a small house, as using wadcutter ammunition or frangible ammunition, it wont penetrate through and run the risk of hitting someone outside. Buckshot and Birdshot from a shotgun can penetrate even brick walls, and has been known to do so in studies. An average hunting rifle will penetrate the masonry of a house with enough force left to kill or severely maime anyone outside it hits. - punx45, on 05/22/2009, -1/+10if broken wine glasses were illegal, this never would have happened.
- anonymousmedic, on 05/22/2009, -1/+10Um. No. A shotgun or a hunting rifle runs a severe risk of penetrating through house walls and endangering anyone on the street.
The 9mm I keep at home for defense is loaded with frangible ammunition. It disintegrates into a power if it hits the masonry walls of my house. It has enough stopping power for an assailant, and wont endanger anyone unless it goes through a window.
And stop treating Gun owners like paranoid survivalists. It's a really shameful stereotype used by the uneducated. - kelmaster1, on 05/22/2009, -1/+10Exactly. This gun owner did everything right. I hate how everyone tries to justify the mental instability. You know mentally unstable people are far more likely to kill you, right?
- TheBigBad, on 05/22/2009, -4/+13I'm so glad my state adheres to Castle Doctrine.
- Kondakarian, on 05/22/2009, -1/+10Crime and Criminals don't care where you live if you have something that they want and think that they can get.
- OrangeTide, on 05/22/2009, -1/+9When they are around, yes. But they usually aren't there until after I've been stabbed/raped/murdered/etc.
- kelmaster1, on 05/22/2009, -2/+10"Drunk guy kills himself with broken wine bottle"
- anonymousmedic, on 05/22/2009, -2/+10No, it's not a strawman. It's a hard, factual response to his assertion that "staggering statistics on gun deaths/accidents/injuries. I see that gun nuts cling to their guns as strongly as they cling to their misinformation." are being hidden to further an agenda, when this is not what the thread is about. Since he didn't want Anectodal data, here are the cold facts on dying in the US, and how you'll do it.
In reality, the majority of Trauma in the United States today is not firearm related, and accidental, contrary to what he said. I incredibly disagree with his statement, and assessment. Accidental, nonintentional gun death in the United States is rare, and although tragic and preventable with responsable gun ownership, does not point to a need to eliminate all guns. - gyrfalcon, on 05/22/2009, -2/+10By relying on our government and the nice police to protect us of course... You trust them with your life and personal security right?
- cawpin, on 05/22/2009, -0/+8"Close combat class teaches you at 8 feet, you have less than 10 seconds if an opponant makes a move at you with a deadly weapon."
Wrong. At 7 yards, or 21 feet, you have 3 seconds to defend yourself.
"If you obliterate someone's pelvis, they stop walking and running, now matter how much superhuman cocaine strength they have."
Very true. I actually read an account of two police officers getting attacked inside a residence by a fairly large man high on PCP that took a round straight down through the top of his head with a .357 Magnum and kept going for another 5 minutes. -
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