What is Digg?176 Comments
- Gadren, on 11/10/2007, -7/+107Great article. It should be required reading for anyone who thinks "24" is reality.
- hiphoc, on 10/15/2007, -8/+84Torture is about getting misleading evidence so the threat of terror can be overblown and be used as a reason to pass horrible laws and be an excuse to keep us "fightin' over there so they dont come over here". Bush needs a new spy law? Release some information gotten from torture, or bring up some patsies and charge them for crimes that they dont have the money or intelligence to commit. It will get front page news, laws gets passed America dies a little more. The adminstration gets new photo ops, more misleading information to fool the people and great propaganda for Fox, Rush and company.
- alex7575, on 10/10/2007, -3/+76This kinda sums up the way I view life in general...
Treat people like they're stupid, and sure enough, they'll act stupid.
Treat people with respect, they'll act respectable.
Doesn't work 100% of the time, but so far I'm still up... - whatthefu, on 10/10/2007, -1/+53Civilizations that thrive on intellectuality will use their wits to interrogate someone and be logical with them, rather than give them the sensation that they're drowning. I guess we don't thrive on intellectuality anymore.
- codemonkeysteve, on 10/10/2007, -15/+58For some, playing chess would be torture.
- mrrealtime, on 10/10/2007, -5/+47Evangelicals love torture, they are taught it in spectacular detail in the Bible, and they are taught from a young age to abhor nudity and sex, but crave blood and sacrifice, any form of violence really, as it signifies the "end times". So, the logical extension is, a state where torture is encouraged. The real problem is, like a cult being lead by a twisted, violent leader, Evangelical christianity needs to be treated as a sickness in society.
- Fallooza, on 10/10/2007, -0/+38it's "you're" stupid
- FiP0, on 10/10/2007, -1/+30Bomberman
- DocHoliday22, on 10/10/2007, -1/+29You know the US has a lasting stigma attached to it because of GW Bush. Those that saw BBC's "Question Time" the other night in the UK will know what I talking about. A guy brought in news paper clippings to show that terrorists and the US foreign policy are pretty much the same thing. Every crime a terrorist committed the US was responsible for something equal or in some cases, more; Torture, Humiliation, Murder, Innocent deaths, espionage, in fact the list of crimes was longer for the US than the terrorists.
The US doesn't have the right to preach about freedom anymore since they're also the ones taking it own from their own citizens. - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -5/+33How come Alqueda has 100 masterminds and the GOP doesnt even have one?
"Torture a Muslim for Jebus!!"
Right, Nutbags?! - Nogger, on 10/10/2007, -0/+27Yes, and you tell them ANYTHING to stop. Whatever they want to hear, be it truth or not. Now that is valueble information you get there.
- savetheusa1, on 10/10/2007, -6/+31So glad somebody posted this. Thank you
- arjie, on 10/10/2007, -0/+25If they treat me like my stupid, it would be very upset. My stupid doesn't like that at all.
- pintomp3, on 10/10/2007, -0/+22torturing someone for information is the equivalent of raping someone for sex.
- nick111, on 10/10/2007, -1/+22The point of torture is seldom to extract information (except in movies)
There are generally two reasons for it
- one is an unaccountable culture that's got out of hand - as per Milgram's experiments in the 70s [1]
- the other is to terrorize a local population that might be harbouring dissidents. This is why a lot of the people tortured in Central America as a result of Reagan Administration foreign policy were actually school teachers, priests and aid workers - not fighters, or people with "information".
Torture is a terror tactic.
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_exper ... - noumuon, on 10/10/2007, -2/+22that was an amazing way to ruin a joke... well done.
- MJG2007, on 10/10/2007, -0/+20There is another benefit to what these men are suggesting. Not everyone we happen to pick up and ship to Gitmo is a terrorist or involved in terrorism.
If we do end up saying "Our bad, we got the wrong guy here." after torturing them, you can rest assured that when we do release them, they are going to tell everyone that everything the radicals are saying about the US is true.
If we treat them as human beings, there's a good chance if send them back they are going to say "Hey, the Americans treated me well and maybe they aren't the evil civilization like the radicals are claiming." - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -2/+22Torture DOESN'T work. At least not if the objective is to gain useful and accurate information as opposed to torturing for the sake or torture (as seems to be the preferred US reasoning at the moment)!
- insllvn, on 10/10/2007, -1/+20No because in 24 torture works. Also the good guys always seem to win...
- preisler, on 10/10/2007, -0/+19http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce
- HairyFotr, on 10/10/2007, -2/+21That guy played a game of chess with the people that do the interrogation now.
- vwvan, on 10/10/2007, -3/+21Evangelical Christianity itself has become sick. Just ask Johnny Cash. God 'ell cut ya down.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -1/+19There are many documented events like this taking place on christmas day for example.
- lordmetroid, on 10/10/2007, -8/+25So they play something else... I don't think specificly playing chess was critical to the strategy, rather to make the prisoner feel welcomed, safe and among friends.
- KingCook, on 10/10/2007, -1/+16That is besides the point ... People who are tortured eventually confess to whatever you want them to confess even if they did not have anything to do with what you are suspecting them about they will confess just to stop the pain
- johnhummel, on 10/10/2007, -1/+15Right. Torture as a tool is never about getting information. It's about control through fear. It's not about "I want to know this you will tell me." It's all about "I can do whatever I want to you, to your loved ones, and you can't stop me - so you'd better toe the line, or else I might show up again and do some more of this."
If you want the truth, torture will never get there - but it certainly will help get you a docile and subservient population afraid to stand against you. - HairyFotr, on 10/10/2007, -0/+14If the personel at the camp are treating the prisoners with respect they might as well cooperate - the interrogaters can always beat them up later if they don't. Showing intelligence and kindness towards prisoners is also a small step towards peace - that prisoner finds out that there are normal human beings on the enemies side, too. But if you beat the prisoner up at the first sign of non-cooperation, then you are just enforcing the propaganda they've been fed: that everyone of their enemies is a brutal ***** who wants to kill you and they might even give their lives to protect what they know (like they were prepared to die in combat before they were captured).
- alex7575, on 10/10/2007, -0/+14They get dugg down, apparently.
- DestroyFascism, on 10/10/2007, -4/+17Americans these days are too arrogant to think people might actually talk over a cup of tea...you just never know what you can do with words and body language,,,dick heads...
- Kyrgizion, on 10/10/2007, -3/+15"Chess with Hess". They coulda made it a whole new concept.
- spawnfree, on 10/10/2007, -1/+13The nature has not changed.
The same bullying attitudes caused Vietnam.
And they told the American people they were fighting for their freedom.
it betrays a very interesting state of mind; one that imposes selfish and unfair demands and then feels justified to hurt people when they resist.
I think the term is 'sociopathic'.
But then if you go back further you see the same principals being applied to the Indians when they got upset about their land being taken.
Sociopaths don't feel guilt; they are always right and everything they do has a web of justification, and often a web of dehumanization too.
Point out the flaws in their logic or try and stop them and you become the 'enemy' no matter how friendly you were before. I have had several friends like this; all abused by their parents one way or another. - adooga, on 10/10/2007, -0/+12Who told you that being a thug with people will get you anywhere?
- asdfff, on 10/10/2007, -5/+16I'm not going to justify torture here, but the thing is: any retarded army monkey can be trained to torture someone, but there are only so many MIT physicists who can interpret personalities by playing chess.
Which one do you think a country can produce faster, more cheaply, in greater numbers? Great chess players with connections who can double as psychiatrists? Or torture-capable monkeys? - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -0/+11men of integrity
- mal1964, on 10/10/2007, -3/+13The PBS series "The War" had a America soldier saying that the Germans on the front line stop fighting so we could play a game of baseball. I forget the details behind the story, but I thought that was incredible.
- gsherwood, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10Counter Strike
- netant, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10And a bloodthirsty collective that wants you dead at all costs (see insurgency warfare).
Genocide is the only effective use of force to undermine resistance. - vertinox, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10Actually, I remember a story about the American officer assigned to interrogate Japanese soldiers said he found that they were fairly easy to get to talk. Mostly since, it was rare when they captured one, they had no one to talk to and they were easy to befriend since they felt ashamed but yet their captors was spending the time to actually talk with them.
That and the Japanese soldier felt that he was dead to his society anyways... So there wasn't anything else to loose by talking. - insllvn, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10I had never thought of it from that angle but you make a strong point. There are better ways to conquer your enemies than to kill or maim them. Prove them wrong.
- adooga, on 10/10/2007, -1/+11You didn't really understand the article, did you?
- insllvn, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9Let us put aside for the moment the issue of whether or not torture is an effective means of interrogation. Is that the sort of country America wants to be? A state governed by the axioms of the Machiavelli? The ends justify the means? To my fellow Americans: will safety from radical Islam be worth the price if we destroy America's soul in the process? To the rest of the world('s diggers): what could we now do to reestablish America's image as, if not a benevolent force in the world, at least a respected member of the international community?
To be clear I believe in American sovereignty, but that sovereignty is not a one way street. At the time of the Iraq war, when I was being told by my government that Iraq had WMD's and Iraq was acting guilty as sin so I believed my government at the time (wow things have changed) I supported the war. I am now convinced that that was a mistake. I made a judgment based on fear and I was wrong. I am now convinced that the idea of a preemptive strike is a foolish one. to maintain the moral high ground we must act defensively, lashing out with great vengeance and furious anger only in retaliation. An example of a justified attack would be the response to 9/11 ie going in to Afghanistan. Even that once impressive victory (I remember the world standing in awe of our victory were the Soviets before us had failed) is now teetering on the edge of disaster because of our foolish foray in Crusadary.
What sort of country has America become? Is it still worth defending? We have tarnished the light from the city on the hill. We have forgotten to avoid foreign entanglements and we are now little more than petulant bullies.
"Walk softly and carry a big stick." - Theodore Roosevelt - vertinox, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9If you torture someone long enough they'll make ***** up. One of the reasons the Cambodian genocide was so prolific is that the system got out of hand. Basically it all started out when they grabbed a few people and were told by Pol Pots men to torture them into they confess because they must be guilty.
So the guards at the camps tortured these people who most likely didn't have any idea how to revolt against Pol Pot even if they wanted to. Eventually, the people being tortured just started off naming anyone they knew including friends, parents, spouses, and their own kids as conspirators because that is what the torturers kept asking for.
So then the guards go "holy crap! there is a conspiracy" and they go out and grab the people that the original tortured named and then torture them and they list more names and the next thing you know the vicious circle has literally everyone in the nation in a concentration camp and the guards are working 24/7 in tortures and executions.
The point being is that if you torture someone, even guilty people, they tend to make stuff up which may impede in your investigation especially when the torture victim is misinformed as it is. - w3bsmith, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9I could actually respect these men.
- Nogger, on 10/10/2007, -2/+11"terrorist" does not help you at all choosing a game. You simply look at the culture they are from. Or just ask the accused if they want a game to pass time.
Chess, checkers, backgammon, whatever. - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -2/+10You know this for a fact??
- obxjdt, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9Good article. I remember seeing an interview with a U.S. P.O.W. He said the Germans tried all kinds if torture techniques on him to find out about munitions. He never broke. After he healed, a German officer took him for a walk, and simply asked him for the info they wanted. He gave it to him. They wanted to know why we used 2 colors on our tracer rounds. He told him it's so we know when we need to reload.
- kufu91, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8no they should give him a ***** trial with a jury of his peers and an impartial judge and every other right we extend to even the most heinous of criminals in our country. because thats what being a just and free nation means
- PoeticExplosion, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8Monkeys actually traditionally end up in our top leadership.
- Bhima, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8Yeah but is it that the nature of the US government has changed or is it that current crop of government officials are so zealous and so incompetent that the world is beginning to take notice?
- quaxon, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8left behind for starters.
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