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137 Comments
- inactive, on 03/11/2009, -7/+82Oh bull. These companies hire them because they can pay them less. A lot less. At least in the IT field.
Remember a couple of years ago when it was discovered that some law firm was putting on workshops on how employers could game the system so they could claim (falsely) that they had not choice but to hire a foreign worker? - edstate, on 03/11/2009, -3/+40Yes, the American (public) education system is pretty darn awful. But, amazingly, despite that we still manage to spit out some smart, talented people. However, that said, foreign imports from certain countries are always going to be cheaper, because of lack of jobs in those countries, standard of living deviations, and even exchange rates; America is still a big draw.
All things being equal, the American government should not allow American talent to be underpriced by immigrants. It's not protectionist. It's not xenophobic. It's just common sense. - rizzo2008, on 03/11/2009, -9/+46No. When I see so many American engineers who struggle to get the jobs they want or need this is just bull.
Furthermore top engineering schools like MIT, Hopkins, Duke, Ivy leagues, etc are up to 10-20% foreign students now in engineering programs when they should honestly be catering to American citizens who they are supposed to serve. We are exporting our talent abroad and neglecting domestic talent.
I'm all for free trade and free flow of goods and capital but not free flow of people. - vanguardanon, on 03/11/2009, -2/+31I had typed up a response about what it's like where I work that I'm concerned could get me fired. Let's leave it at this, I promise you that most H1B workers are not behind hired because you can't find Americans. They are being hired because they are cheap.
- ChelseaBlacker, on 03/11/2009, -3/+31Fun Fact: H1B Visas require a bachelor's degree or educational equivalent to work at a specific "highly skilled" job, the only exception is fashion models who must be "of distinguished merit and ability". (I wonder who decides this...)
- peacelvr, on 03/11/2009, -5/+30I can't agree with this. In school many of my colleagues dropped out of engineering for business. The writing was on the wall- competing with immigrants who are happy with $30,000 a year when you had to work your ass off in college, or go into business, get better pay, and be able to play instead of study in college.
It's a damn shame to undermine tech salaries. WSJ is always pro-immigrant though, one of the few places I consistently disagree with them. - inactive, on 03/11/2009, -4/+29@Ravatar
Yeah. If the laws worked. What the employer will do is "redefine" the job. And lowball the duties. Plus they allow the H1B candidate to inflate his/her resume.
My brother was originally a programmer for HP. Then, in the 90s, bounced into a bunch of dot coms. Then he was a project mgr. Now he's a patent agent specializing in software.
He explained it to me. - inactive, on 03/11/2009, -4/+29All the more reason to NOT bring in foreigners to bid down salaries.
- Drakoi, on 03/11/2009, -2/+25don't let the murdoch street journal fool you. the practice this is aimed at is when companies hire a foreigner for lower wages rather than hire an american who is qualified, or overqualified, but would demand a higher salary. it's not about turning away talent, it's making sure that the engineer with 20 years of experience who just got laid off from GM can get a new job, instead of a teenager from the phillipines who will make 10 dollars an hour.
- inactive, on 03/11/2009, -3/+23I don't hate foreigners. But it's wrong to undercut your family.
You know, in general, other countries make it harder for Americans to work there than we do for them to work here. - antoniuk, on 03/12/2009, -2/+20Let's see here. If we stop hiring foreign workers then we have to hire American talent. Therefore American jobs will be created and a rush on eningeering degrees will result.
How is this bad for our country? If you want ot work here you better plan on becoming a citizen just like in nearly every other country. - illy68, on 03/11/2009, -5/+21I can see many Western countries entertaining a "brain drain" in the next few decades. These underpaid geniuses will head for pastures new ad Latin American & Asian countries hit parity. Its already happening in the UK, where education standards have slipped dramatically.
- LaughingMan89, on 03/12/2009, -1/+13Oh, our schools turn out plenty of engineers, we just send them back to their home country afterward.
- Temlakos, on 03/11/2009, -14/+25I cannot agree with this article. Then again, I always have thought that the Wall Street Journal had a blind spot as regards immigration. These days, to get a job in IT, you practically have to tint your skin brown, change your name, cultivate a cut-with-a-knife accent, renounce your American citizenship, and then pass yourself off as a native of another country. Frankly, I'm surprised that the Hollywood Tans chain hasn't thought of it themselves. It would make an excellent sales promotion.
- tmonsta1, on 03/12/2009, -2/+13sell at least 140Suffolk understands that a guy who spent 4 years in college to get an IT degree should be able to pay back the student loan and not having to compete with the guy they brought here from India who thinks $10 an hour is a lot of money...
- poitzort, on 03/12/2009, -0/+11This is almost completely about the financial industry. Let's face it you don't need "skilled" people in the financial industry. A trained monkey can work in finance and be about as good as most of the people who work in finance right now. If they were talking about talented scientists and engineers but financial and business people? They're blood sucking scum bags no matter what country they're from. I hardly consider what they do to be a "skill".
- elmoslemur, on 03/12/2009, -2/+10This article is total cr@p.
1) Many of these companies dont have 100-200 H1B they have thousands. They do whats called primary/secondary vendors. On the books no H1B works directly for them.
2) Most vendors offer kick backs to managers that will hire their H1Bs. Thus crushing any chance a greencard or a citizen has of getting a decent job.
3) Many H1Bs don't get paid their full salary for up to a year. The companies cover their basic living cost and pocket the rest. Nothing ever happens since many are afraid they will loose their status.
4) Most of the vendors are stacked and each takes a cut. They only offer these positions to people they know wont mind making 30K a year. Thus making it next to impossible for a citizen or a greencard holder to get a job in any of the major banks or mortgage companies(biggest H1B Primary/secondary scammers).
The H1B is not the problem the problem is the structure of the system. SLAVERY IS NOT DEAD people its called H1. The companies know exactly what is going on and they look the other way. - thedivinelyevil, on 03/12/2009, -0/+6bs. if she moved there and got married she probably has a resident permit which should allow her to work there. she's just stupid if she hasn't figured out how to obtain one. i'm a non-european here and i should know.
it's just getting the citizenship part that's difficult. unlike the US a lot of countries place utmost importance on your bloodline, but most of them are hardly a country made up of immigrants like the US is. - zuiquan, on 03/12/2009, -5/+10Can we have some sort of rule where anything that is an opinion from WSJ gets treated as such and gets buried for being completely *****, old-paradigm, dogmatic nonsense? I'll do my part. Buried.
- mcla007, on 03/12/2009, -1/+6All of you who are outraged that some employers choose to hire foreign workers who accept lower salaries, in all honesty ask yourself this: when you go shopping do you select the cheapest option with equivalent value regardless of where it was manufactured, or do you deliberately buy only made in America goods because that's more patriotic? Would you appreciate if the law forced you to buy the more expensive option?
If you as a buyer of goods want the bang for your buck, why is it so bad if the same right is extended to the buyer of skills? If you think businessmen should be forced to buy the costlier option, at least be consistent and always buy the costlier option in the market. Fair is fair.
There are other arguments against immigration which might have some merit, but the argument against low wages is dishonest and economically ignorant. - inactive, on 03/12/2009, -1/+6Hey as I said before go to any other country and try to get work. A friend of mine with a eningeering degree went over seas and you know what the only thing he could do was teach English and the most he could be paid was room and board. It should be the same here also.
- PeppermintPig, on 03/12/2009, -0/+4Agree. Get rid of visas. Get rid of welfare. Let people who want to work here come in.
As for low skilled immigrants, it would be a better use of money to set up voluntary processing facilities to help direct workers to compatible employment opportunities...
The premise being that once we have a free and open economy, this really won't be the big bugaboo problem everybody makes it out to be. Wealth is not a limited commodity. We could have MORE JOBS FOR EVERYBODY if the government stopped interfering and setting up privileged monopolies. - publiclurker, on 03/12/2009, -0/+4You are either a lair or an idiot, I don't know which.
for instance, in New York, what they do is set up a front company in a place like Iowa and use the prevailing wages there to set the standards. Then if that doesn't screw people enough, they take someone with 15 years experience in a specialized area and classify them as an entry level programmer or data entry clerk. - mcla007, on 03/12/2009, -2/+6"But what about the Americans that are already here?"
Native Americans you mean? I thought they were pushed into little bantustans by hordes of white European immigrants. But my history is a bit weak. - movegas1, on 03/12/2009, -1/+5first to the idiot who made the drug users a prostitute statement, read The Wisdom of Whores by liz pisani. Second this is great news, didn't Canada pass a simullar bill years ago, and you don't ride there parliment. I can't even get a job at ski resort but 115 brazilians can? I have an A.A. While my Brazilian counter part has what?
- deagleman, on 03/12/2009, -4/+8I work with great people but I have seen my fair share of incompetent developers that get pissy and write stupid and racist blogs once they are canned.
It's like watching American idol. They have no talent but refuse to believe it and just lash out at everyone else. - Ubermann, on 03/12/2009, -2/+6When the Jews, Irish, Italians and other European came over THEY HELPED BUILD THIS COUNTRY - most of the immigrants today LIVE OFF THIS COUNTRY.
Old immigrants are not the same as today's immigrants. - Dustin00, on 03/12/2009, -2/+6If we're interested in the talent of those that have H1-B visas, they should be fast-tracked to citizenship so they're more likely to stay.
- BuriedAgain, on 03/12/2009, -0/+4I'm in a tech job. I worked with a guy who had an H1B, and he made a lot less than I did. It's true - many hire H1Bs because they CAN and DO pay them a lot less than citizens.
- PeppermintPig, on 03/12/2009, -0/+4What enables people to be lazy? Welfare programs perhaps?? I don't think this is an issue exclusive to new immigrants.
- DAVENP0RT, on 03/12/2009, -2/+6Sounds legit to me. If the government is going to be forking out money to companies, they'll want that money going to pay the salaries of people who will pay it back in taxes. Did these companies that need bailout money think that they'd get help from the government with no strings attached?
- Insightful, on 03/11/2009, -4/+7Peppermintpig: Just because you did not get accepted to a good college* does not mean you have a right to be a bitter *****.
* Sorry Rice, UC, UMich and the @ of affordable top schools. - faskippy, on 03/12/2009, -1/+4Record nos. of unemployed SKILLED Americans. Record nos. of imported workers. ???
- PeppermintPig, on 03/12/2009, -0/+3People who seem to think their self worth should be validated by entitlements.
- inactive, on 03/11/2009, -7/+10Wouldn't be b/c the IT field suffers a glut, would it? Just askin'.
- BuriedAgain, on 03/12/2009, -0/+3Here's something else that'll bring your piss to a boil:
I worked for a state gov't software development contractor - that's where I worked with the H1B visa holder that was being gouged on salary. The contractor was a part of a larger company called NIC. NIC corporate tells the local contracting offices to tout workers as being local taxpayers and that they don't outsource overseas. If the (small) local contracting offices gets too much work to handle, they outsource to the corporate office in Nebraska - the local contracting office tell the state gov't partner that they pushed the work to the corporate office in Nebraska to help, and then the corporate office has a branch that outsources overseas to Turkey. That happened a lot in some states, and it made me sick to think the states were being duped like that. - lightningrod220, on 03/12/2009, -0/+3If the government wanted to stem the tide, simply delay the H1 visas.... "oh, sorry, we need 12 months to process this"... then, they also have a record of the "worker", and can deport him if he attempts to take the job illegally. No need to do any of this "enforce through funding" thing. The banks/companies will just find ways around that. But if you cut off their supply by delaying/denying/deporting, that will do it. Then, they'll have no choice but to hire Americans.
- Insightful, on 03/11/2009, -11/+14Wow, what an ignorant *****. I am in IT and there is plenty of white people where I work. Just because you are not good enough does not mean you get to blame people who are better than you.
- PeppermintPig, on 03/12/2009, -0/+3Wait, are we talking about private industry hiring foreign workers, or government??
Frankly, once you give the government that money, it's not yours anymore. Are you making an argument against taxes??
People buy goods based on a number of factors. You're proving the point by showing that through experience people may learn that there are more factors beyond price. For the most part, the two of you are actually in agreement... - edstate, on 03/12/2009, -0/+3@PeppermintPig:
It's not like the dirty, bad immigrant are coming in looking to cheat an honest american out of a job... so it's not "they took our jerbs!", but rather "the politicians gave away our jerbs!"
When you invite in someone of equal acumen to "compete" for a position, and that person is willing to do it for much, much less due to his NOT living in America and subsequently being saddled with America's standard of living, etc, it's not "fair" to the American worker. We go to great lengths (possibly even un-Constitutional lengths) in this country to make sure the playing field is LEVEL when citizens compete for employment, and then we turn around and do this. It's amazing.
The big businesses lobby our Government to allow this to happen. And that's not a good thing. - inactive, on 03/12/2009, -0/+3You're citing the contributions of immigrants. Of course you're right.
H1Bs are not immigrants. - rizzo2008, on 03/12/2009, -0/+3the problem is they dont. Many dont want to become Americans and use their newly acquired knowledge and "talent" and bring it back to their own countries.
- desertDenizen, on 03/12/2009, -3/+6Not sure why you're being dugg down, unless Digg is suddenly overrun with protectionist IT workers worried about losing their jobs (which I suppose is possible, though it would be disappointing). The stats you mentioned, and their implications, are described quite forcefully in George Friedman's "The Next 100 Years," which is required reading for anyone with an interest in economics, geopolitics, and the future. The US is facing an impending crisis in the form of retiring Baby Boomers that will lower the tax base and make our current economic problem pale by comparison. The only answer will be to open the floodgates to immigrants, particularly highly skilled (esp in healthcare). Problem is, every developed nation will be facing the same demographic challenge, and it will be a contest to see which country can make themselves most appealing to potential immigrants. Very few Americans today have any idea of the topsy-turvery ***** that lies ahead.
- amitlimaye, on 03/12/2009, -2/+5The problem to becoming a citizen right now the wait to become a citizen is around 10-12 years.
The Green card takes 4-5 years and i am in the skilled professional category. After i get a green card during which i cant change jobs which is worse than being on a H1B. I have to be holding my Green card for 5 years before i am eligible for a Green Card. Being beholden to an employer for such a long time is not a very comforting idea.
I am processing my Green card and it is atleast 4 years away :(. I don't know if i want to wait that long or just move to another country with friendlier immigration policies - LokitheComplex, on 03/12/2009, -0/+3If you have a free flow of money and goods its difficult to sustain a block on people in principle and practice.
But then total free trade will lead to world government. - sunsetprojects, on 03/12/2009, -3/+6More Wall street journal trash. They need to hire real journalists
- mcla007, on 03/12/2009, -1/+4Take your logic one step further: if you stop importing foreign goods (I mean ALL foreign goods), then you have to manufacture them at home. Therefore American jobs will be created. How is that bad for your country?
If you can figure that one out, you can figure out the other.
PS: There is a whole book devoted to explaining this type of puzzles. It's Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson. It's freely available on the internet. - s73v3r, on 03/12/2009, -3/+6They become Americans, cool. But what about the Americans that are already here?
- LokitheComplex, on 03/12/2009, -0/+3They are welcome to our "financial wizards."
- julesbond007, on 03/12/2009, -2/+5I used to respect the WSJ, but man it's gotten bad lately. What they don't say is that these H1B visa students are paid significantly less than their American counterparts. Case in point: I know some people with master's degree getting 50,000 dollars (the average for master's from my school is 72,000 dollars). Yes that's 1/3 less.
They are talking about competing in a global economy???!! Are you serious?? They're the first ones to block companies from China to enter the US market because they know they have better quality and cheaper things...THAT'S UNFAIR COMPETITION...You can't have it both ways. If these same companies try to sell their products overseas, they would have to significantly decrease the price to compete. It's not a GLOBAL ECONOMY, IT'S GLOBAL EXPLOITATION.
Furthermore, those companies are developing talents for other countries. Once these H1B students are done working they move back to their countries and bring whatever technology they develop to their own countries. That's what's happening with India, Singapore, China, Nigeria, Korea, Japan, etc...Most of these people come here study, work then move back to invest in their countries...Why do so many of them want to study in the US?? -
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