What is Digg?449 Comments
- flernk, on 10/12/2007, -10/+270We all know torture is illegal (let alone this man was innocent). What I want to know is: who will be held responsible for these crimes?
- canadianguy33, on 10/12/2007, -6/+141The RCMP ***** up royally but the U.S. sent the guy to Syria knowing that he would be tortured. We're both to blame.
- flernk, on 10/12/2007, -20/+148What made the government so sure? A complete disregard for due process, that's what.
- robdavy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+133@cyn0sure
tbh, who cares what information they had on him - he was denied many rights when in the US, then shipped to a country where the US knew he was going to be tourtured
Doesn't matter who he was or what information they had on him, you still shouldn't do things like that to anyone. - Hrvat, on 10/12/2007, -16/+137@iceperson
Moron. He's a Canadian citizen also. Why was he repeatedly denied that he be sent to Canada? Also EVERYONE has a right to a freaking lawyer in the US. The law applies equally to everyone in the US. The foreigners might have some restrictions but everyone has the same rights. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+106That's why torture was abandoned in the first place. Not because it's inhumane, but because statements obtained through torture are of so little value - basically the prisoner wont tell his interrogators the truth, but what he thinks they want to hear.
This makes torture near useless for obtaining general information. Torture only gets accurate information when the interrogators have very specific questions with verifiable answers.
That said my impression is that most states and organizations which use torture do so because it is quick and easy, because they don't mind low accuracy or care that innocents get implicated, and because the torture is seen as a punishment in itself, not merely a means of obtaining information. - wjw75, on 10/12/2007, -11/+108Regardless of whether or not we have the whole story, there's no "way out" for the US government here.
A) Even if he did have terrorist links, they should not have acted in the way they did. Even terrorists are supposed to have human rights.
B) Similarly, regardless of why Syria wanted to torture him, he should not have been sent back there by the US since that violates his human rights. The US is meant to be against torture. - exsst, on 10/12/2007, -9/+103Notice how he states that he lied about going to Afghanistan to stop them from hitting him as much?.. This isn't torture which pushes the truth out.. this is torture which makes people lie.
- Rodzirra, on 10/12/2007, -6/+96Even though reading it made me want to throw up, I have to thank you for posting that article, Mark. You have real courage, and my respect, as well.
- knickerbocker, on 10/12/2007, -7/+77Not that they didn't have help from the RCMP but this should be a cautionary tale for U.S. citizens. Or anybody else transitting the States
- ClassicJBC, on 10/12/2007, -5/+67"In comparison, mental aftereffects almost seem insignificant."
Easy to say, but imagine falling into the routine of being afraid of everything, nothing stable, pain at every turn, hoping you won't hear footsteps coming for your cell. I can't imagine the trauma or how long it would take to recover from something like that. As personalities go I feel like I'm a fairly resilient person, but I really don't know what that would do to me. - WarpFox, on 10/12/2007, -15/+75Yesterday's obituaries mourned the death of Sir Habeas Corpus.
Born in the UK in 1679 to parents Mama and Magna Carta, Sir Corpus is said to have enjoyed horseback riding and Othello.
Originally the King's bitch, Sir Corpus made his name by forcing prisoners to testify in pending trials.
After a short but nearly fatal bout of colitis, he changed his strategy and began protecting individuals from arbitrary detention by the state.
Having emigrated to the United States in the late 1700s, Mr. Corpus continued to argue that prisoners should have their day in court to determine whether they're being lawfully imprisoned.
In recent years, Mr. Corpus' tactics of trying to protect the innocents have come under fire by the current White House. U.S. President Bush has referred to the elderly statesman as uppity and old-fashioned.
Mr. Corpus is said to have been particularly upset by the recent deportation and torture of Canadian citizen Mr. Maher Arar.
The U.S. sent Mr. Arar to Syria despite the fact that Canadian investigators said that they could find no evidence linking Mr. Arar to terrorist groups.
Yesterday Mr. Habeas Corpus was found dead in his Washington apartment, having been stabbed sixty-five times in the back.
Mr. Corpus leaves behind Mrs. Corpus and three hundred million children.
Please send condolences and flowers to yourself.
(from http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/archives/2006/09/092906.html ) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -29/+84The article does not state:
A) Why he was suspected to have terrorist links.
B) Why he would be tortured if he returned to Syria.
I feel like we aren't getting the whole story here; however, he was cleared on charges, so someone obviously messed up. I'm just curious what made the government so sure he was linked to terrorism. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+57http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar
Check the references.
Pretty stupid for a government to admit to something "made up." - TheDrunkMonkey, on 10/12/2007, -10/+59BLOGSPAM!
Video of his speech: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3403070853610915613&hl=en
Transcript (PDF):
http://www.ips-dc.org/lm-awards/2006/maher_arar_speech.pdf
More information on the reward he was given:
http://www.ips-dc.org/lm-awards/2006/ - warmonger48, on 10/12/2007, -7/+55Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
-Benjamin Franklin - canadianguy33, on 10/12/2007, -4/+54akira117 you're a moron. If you have doubts about the story why didn't you just type 'Maher Arar' into google and read any one of the 473,000 search results. This ***** did happen.
- rprouse, on 10/12/2007, -7/+56@HateStation
That article doesn't give the whole story, it is actually much worse. He was put on a 'watch list' just because he happened to innocently cross paths with other people on the 'watch lists' and was thus investigated in Canada. Nothing was found on him, but he fit the profile (Muslim) so he remained someone to watch.
Intelligence is shared between Canada and the US, so he also ended up on US watch lists, so when he traveled through the US, he was picked up.
This is a very scary story and everyone should be worried about it. What if you end up on some list because of someone you work with, works for you, attends the same club as you, etc? Don't think that because you are not Muslim that you are safe, remember Timothy McVeigh. These days, if he was working at your company, you could easily be pulled in and locked away without due process or even a phone call, just disappeared. Remember, the laws that they recently signed in apply to everyone, not just non-citizens.
When they come for you, remember, you did nothing to stop it before... - itsthemechanic, on 10/12/2007, -6/+54Yes.. Well, how many languages do you speak? Thought so. How's your Arabic? Is your Arabian grammar better than his English? Remember, this is somebody's 2nd language.
- dclowd9901, on 10/12/2007, -13/+54"Since my release I have been suffering from anxiety, constant fear, and depression."
This really gets me. While I'm sure anyone would suffer from these same mental issues after being tortured for almost an entire year, I don't think that's what would bother me most. I think what would bother me most is that I was taken away to a dark hole and tortured for almost an entire year, it was a big mistake, and no one would catch holy hell for it. In comparison, mental aftereffects almost seem insignificant. - flernk, on 10/12/2007, -15/+56Wow iceperson, you are amazingly ignorant. It was a pleasure to block you.
For the record: God bless America. But God damn those who condone, practice, and allow torture. And may God forgive us for turning a blind eye for so long. - rprouse, on 10/12/2007, -2/+43@diggndigg
I won't bother reposting all of the links supporting his story, just scroll down a bit. Then when you realize that it is true, blame your media for not telling you what your government is doing. Remember, this is just one article out of hundreds that form the whole picture. Canadians have known about this and have been outraged since he was in prison and we were trying to get him out. Ask yourself why you haven't heard about it up until now... - jer2eydevil88, on 10/12/2007, -15/+54Its okay Mark we got your message even with the typo.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+40Have you guys been living in a cave the last few years?
The point of extraordinary rendition isn't to send someone home, it's to send him to where he'll be tortured or killed. That's the whole point, to farm out and thereby avoid responsibility for torture or murder. Afghanis and even a German have been sent to Syria for torture.
Don't take my word for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
Like a CIA operative put it: You want someone tortured, you send him to Syria. You want someone disappeared, you send him to Egypt. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+40From the Toronto Star:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1164840611110&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724
You'll find the other side's story is mostly, "We made a mistake." This mistake just happened to cause severe trauma to an innocent man. - Hrvat, on 10/12/2007, -5/+40@iceperson
US has a policy against sending people to countries that support torture. Also, he's a Canadian citizen. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+38 Pseudorious
we have laws saying we cant deport people to countries that torture.
ANd if you think our relations with syria are so bad... tell me why we have used them before
concidering this president and the vp fighting for the right to torture
concidering our own people got busted for torture in abu grab..(for doing exactly what was ordered by rumsfeld)
we admitted to water boarding the shiek..
how can you sit there and deny that we specifically sent him to syria to be tortured?
and no canada did not know we were going to send him to syria, we did NOT offer to send him back to canada before we sent him to syria..
and I believe his case has already been thrown out of US court based on the state secrets clause.
If we didnt torture him, why not have the trial? - joel2600, on 10/12/2007, -10/+43HOW MUCH MORE DOES THIS HAVE TO HAPPEN BEFORE WE ARE WILLING TO PUT A STOP TO THIS???
we've been hearing about this for awhile now, without really getting too many details because so many of these people never make it out to tell their stories.
I'd really like to see more out of the digg crowd than just clicking "digg", please write your congressman. It's not just this person's liberties we're talking about, it's all of ours. - DalekoProvidek, on 10/12/2007, -4/+37It purports to be a verbatim transcript of a speech. Nobody uses correct grammar when speaking. It didn't bother me because of that, and I _am_ a grammar Nazi on Digg.
- Groovemaster, on 10/12/2007, -2/+33"If your going to write about something this serious then PLEASE get someone who can form a coherent sentence in English to write it for you."
It's "you're", not "your".
If you have to nitpick over grammar, at least learn how to use it correctly yourself. Retard. - BobsYourUncle, on 10/12/2007, -5/+33@iceperson
1) But the rendition was performed by the US, with the implicit (possibly explicit) approval of Canada. At the very least, they didn't kick up a fuss.
2) He's ALSO a Canadian citizen.
We're not blaming the US for a crime committed by other countries. He was sent to Syria by the US. Syria is a known torturer. I'd say the crux of the matter is whether Arar was sent to Syria by the US after Canada refused to deny entry, or was Arar sent to Syria by the US with Canada's approval. Rendition by proxy.
For what it's worth, there's a (small) uproar over the actions of the RCMP and some groups are calling for the resignation of the commissoner as a result of his actions and his testimony before a committee investigating the matter. - flernk, on 10/12/2007, -13/+41@akira117
Spoken like a true Bush apologist. You should be ashamed of yourself. By your "proof" reasoning, this man should never have been taken in the first place. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+30Good Lord... how in the world can these people sleep at night?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes indeed. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+28@cdm014
It is up to a government to attempt to collaborate their intel before acting. You don't do a bombing run without tactical analysis of the intel you have backed up by other intel your allies have.
Acting on a tip that "that guy there" is a terrorist is not much different then burning "that woman there" because someone said she's a witch. - donjaime, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27Not sure I get your logic.
So you agree that it was wrong to do this to an INNOCENT man. But because it isn't as bad as what the crazy terrorists do, it's somehow ok? Think about what you say before you say it. Because I can read a lot into how your mind works. By comparing what happened to this man to the murdering of people kidnapped by terrorists, you have essentially grouped this man with terrorists, that is, 'he got it easier than what westerners have gotten from people like him'. From that I can flatly say that you are a goddamn racist.
Now I understand the current global situation, and I know the need to detain and investigate people. But if the story is true, then no country had any evidence against him. His race should not be an excuse for removing the burden of proof. - ComputerDudes, on 10/12/2007, -6/+29To all you people who say this story is BS, I hope you are the next one they pull off the plane. I mean really are you stupid? What reason would anyone have to make this up? The guy just decided to leave his wife and kids for a year to go party in Syria. To cover his tracks he made this all up. Oh and we just found weapons of mass destruction and the War on Iraq is going great! And Haliburton is a very patriotic company over in Iraq not for profit, just because they love America. And if the guy did make this up, don't you think the government would jump right in and prove this guy was full of it? Fox news would be all over him if this was false. But you will never see this story on FOX. Just the story of the missing white girl who did get drunk and fell off her yacht.
- rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -2/+25diggndig, despite the public rhetoric, Syria has been cooperating with the US since 9/11 on this kind of *****. The US performs these kind of "extraordinary renditions" to all sorts of brutal totalitarian regimes. I understand your skepticism, but this is not even the only person sent by the US to Syria for "interrogation".
- MattL920, on 10/12/2007, -7/+32akira: you, sir, are an idiot of the highest degree. The submitter posted this transcript of someone else, a canadian citizen, talking about his experience. Did you even bother to read the article?
- rprouse, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25@BobsYourUncle
From what I know from the recent inquiry in Canada, he was not denied access into Canada, nor did Canada support his being delivered into a Syrian prison. Canada did supply the initial incorrect information about him, but the point is that it is against the Geneva convention to deport a person to a country where they will be tortured.
I think we should also make the distinction, he was not sent to Syria where he may have been tortured, he was delivered to Syria blindfolded and shackled and Syria was told that he was a terrorist. - Groovemaster, on 10/12/2007, -10/+32Yep. It's a quick and easy way to get people to confess to whatever you want them to confess to, whether it's true or not. Torture is vitally important to the current administration as their agenda is based almost completely around lies, or as Karl Rove puts it "creating our own reality".
It basically comes down to "give us the confession we need or die". Tough decision, there... - canadianguy33, on 10/12/2007, -3/+24No you're beyond stupid javi. Do you honestly believe that the Americans had no idea he'd be tortured if he was sent to Syria?
- pp7k, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23I have followed this story from the first week when he went "missing". All that was known was that he had been taken for question at JFK. His wife and children were told nothing. His wife led an extraordinary campaign to get him back. After a year the story gained some traction, but there was little to no interest before that.
Had the Syrians simply executed or disappeared him, the story likely would had faded quickly, as most people were quickly willing to believe that "he must have done something". I cannot tell you how happy I was to find out he was indeed alive and would be returned to Canada. I was certain he would be killed.
Those of you who are interested in the "other side of the story" are welcome to it. There has been a high profile public inquiry. Let me shortly list some conclusions:
- Mr. Arar is completely innocent of any wrongdoing, even by association. There is NO evidence of any ties to terrorism
- the RCMP acted irresponsibly, but did not know that he would be rendered/tortured
- the US decided to render him after being told that there was insufficient evidence to arrest and/or charge Mr. Arar if he were returned to Canada
- all US sources have been obstructive and have refused to provide any information citing "national security concerns"
Now I don't doubt that the people responsible didn't do this for laughs. I don't think they did it because they hate Arabs or they just don't care. I'm sure they believed (however wrongly) that they were acting in national interests (though arguably they weakened them).
THIS IS WHY YOU NEED LIMITS. THIS IS WHY YOU CANNOT PUT ANYONE ABOVE THE LAW. THIS IS WHAT THE GENEVA CONVENTION IS FOR. Do you think George Bush, Dick Cheney or any of the rest of the crew indirectly responsible for these actions lost five seconds of sleep over this?
If you want to condemn terrorism, the torture and killing of innocents, insurgents beheading foreigners, you must hold yourself to a higher moral standard. Yes, it's hard to be the good guy because it ties your hands to a certain extent. But what moral price are you willing to pay? You must draw the line and state clearly that some things are beyond the pale, no matter what the circumstances. - Leviathan777, on 10/12/2007, -2/+22God I've never seen a thread calling for so many to be blocked.
Every single one of you doubting this story - don't bother. It's been well-documented, and the "other side" is that the governments of Canada and the US have admitted the truth of *his* side.
The RCMP ***** up with some bad information, and the US, based on this information, sent him to Syria to be tortured.
If that doesn't make you outraged, then you have not the slightest understanding of what freedom is, and as far as I'm concerned, you've forfeited all claim to be a human being.
DIAF. Seriously. You have declared yourselves enemies of freedom, liberty, and justice. There are still enough of us *real* Americans that we know what to do with proto-fascist weenies like you. - biochem, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23@ CapnCash
I hope thats what people say about you if you travel to another country and it happens to you. - caper88, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21You total ***** don't get it. The US was a signatory to the Geneva convention, and having the INS or any US Government agency operating outside that legally binding international agreement is illegal. Even during "war". And just because a superior gave you direct orders is not a legal defense. So at a minimum the American citizens involved in this case should be tried for crimes against humanity, but the larger issue as always in issues of systemic failure, is not the people at the bottom, but the larger issue of leadership at the top.
- dustedbunny, on 10/12/2007, -5/+25akira. you keep digging a bigger hole. Where in the hell does it say he's from canada?
http://www.yannone.org/background.html
"Who is Mark Yannone?
A 25-year resident of Arizona
A top-ranking ASU graduate with a Bachelor of Science degree in business
A successful, hard-working entrepreneur
A dedicated Libertarian"
Last time I checked, Arizona was in the United States. - JarekB, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23@GliTCH82
Maybe he was suggesting that it was a US facility because elevators are not common there. - robdavy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20@Nis81
My biggest issue isn't the motive behind what they did - that's irrelevant to me, he could have been an actual terrorist - that's not the point. The point is, no one should be treated like he was - slstsang, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19Most of you who don't believe this is because you're American, you have American passport and don't need to go through immigration like the foreigners do.
If you have a friend or know someone who are not americans or don't have a green card, you know what this is about.
My wife is canadian and everytime she crosses the border the imigration treat her as a suspect, she is originally born in Hong Kong and they give her nothing but stress and greive every single time. The imigration is not friendly, they do nothing to assist you, they do not asnwer your questions and find ways not to let you in. American imigration have become so intense that most foreigners who travel here are afraid, afraid of getting treatment mentioned in the article. because these things do happen. You know foreigners come to US to do business, investment, enhance the economy, exchange ideas and get involve in scientific research, but when the imigration treat them all like suspect, it really discourage others from visiting.
I tell my wife, most imigration officier doesn't earn much, some of them really want to protect the US, some of them are on extended power trip, they spend long hours doing repetitive work, especially after 911 everyone just want to be sure that you're not a terrorist. ...... there's a problem there alright, but what can you do about it? sigh..... - rprouse, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19@kutaone
That is part of the problem. This story has been well covered by the mainstream media in Canada since when he was still in prison in Canada and they were trying to get him out. There has hardly been any mention of it in the United States though, so most Americans are not aware of the story or even aware of what is going on. If they were, I would hope that Americans would put a stop to sending innocent people off to get tortured.
Now that you know, what are you going to do about it? -
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