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222 Comments
- soarin, on 10/12/2007, -4/+94MowingFaces:
The point of the whole story is that she didn't KNOW they were cops. Cops are supposed to be the ones that "serve and protect" you -- not the ones that come bashing down your door in the middle of the night with guns drawn.
The cops weren't even in uniform. They were "plainclothes" cops. They didn't even announce themselves because it was a no-knock raid.
A 75-year-old neighbor of hers was raped, so she had burglar bars on the windows and the door. I guess you are arguing that if cops bust down your door in the middle of the night, out of uniform, and don't tell you that they are cops, you have to be psychic?
This "police state" stuff has got to stop. It doesn't matter what "good stuff" they do if they are killing us. - johnhummel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+74jlgosse: I think the issue is the method.
They bust in the door - no "Hey, we're here with a search warrant", just busting in the door to take names and kick ass. And you know what? If someone kicked down my door and didn't identify themselves as the police, I might have started shooting as well before I knew it was the cops.
The "No Knock" idea was meant to keep criminals from grabbing guns and going into a lock down, but it seems that there's more instances of innocent citizens getting caught unawares and, when they respond like a normal person (aka - shooting at the people just busting in their door unannounced) getting killed for it. - soarin, on 10/12/2007, -7/+76Don't forget the innocent 92 year old grandmother that just got shot by cops in Atlanta.
They got a no-nock warrant and bashed down her door in the middle of the night -- she had a gun for self-protection and she shot three of them before they shot her. It was a rough neighborhood and she thought she was being attacked.
Supposedly an informant said that he saw someone buy some pot there from a younger guy.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman.shot.ap/index.html - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+72Yeah, so how's that "No Knock" policy working out for us?
The ***** who passed that law should be dropped off a bridge. This blood is on their hands. - nusteve, on 10/12/2007, -3/+67The point of the articles is that SWAT teams are now being frequently used in situations where they should not, creating the potential for violent (and deadly) encounters where there was none before. Sure, SWAT teams have been rightly used to diffuse hostage situations, and have succeeded in saving lives. But how can you justify sending in militarized officers to surprise raid a house where the suspects have no history of violence, and are only being accused of possessing drugs or gambling, and are putting nobody in any immediate danger? In these situations, the SWAT solution (violence) is worse than the problem (drugs).
- Memitim, on 10/12/2007, -0/+62Yeah, a no-knock warrant is three shades of stupid, especially considering that most neighborhoods that they are conducted in aren't exactly Belle Isle. I damn near took out a maintenance guy in my complex when he came to the wrong apartment by mistake and just let himself in. Not to mention, what in the unholy hell is the SWAT team being used for in a marijuana possession bust? Is there some marijuana crazed cowboy from a 1920s propaganda film running wild and shooting people that I just haven't heard about?
- MrDiggle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+56Let's not forget that the SWAT team had the WRONG HOUSE! You would think that the police would at least do some recon of the target, if not conduct some kind of investigation before they committed all the expense of those resources to do a paramilitary raid on a private citizens home.
- nusteve, on 10/12/2007, -0/+53Wrong house raids are frequent. A few months ago, Shaquille O’Neal participated with a SWAT team, looking for child porn, but instead they just terrorized an innocent family.
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/027150.php#027150 - Spire3660, on 10/12/2007, -2/+46I dont care who they SAY they are, if someone comes busting down my door late into the night, I'm going to shoot first and ask questions later, just like they do. Raids like this are home invasions and you should act accordingly. Just because they are cops does not mean that they don't deserve to be shot for a surprise attack on my home. Would you rather be alive and wrongfully convicted of murder, or dead? Oh and here's a tip, if you ever DO shoot at a police officer, shoot to kill, dont try to just wound him, because sure as ***** he will be shooting to kill you.
- nusteve, on 10/12/2007, -2/+43An accompanying article can be found here:
http://reason.com/news/show/117095.html
And a very interesting U.S. map of paramilitary police raids here:
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/ - vhold, on 10/12/2007, -0/+40Ben Franklin put it this way: "It is better that one hundred guilty Persons escape than one innocent Person should suffer"
That is the kind of thing they should teach in elementary school. - vhold, on 10/12/2007, -0/+40America has completely lost sight of the idea that protecting the rights of the innocent is far more important then punishing the guilty. That's the reason for all of this.
You cannot stop all crime. But you can make the world a really ***** place by trying. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -10/+49Why do people think "churchgoing" means you're an excellent person? Rapists go to church.
- copaceticmind, on 10/12/2007, -4/+41Take your average cop and cross him with a trigger happy vigilante that wants to get a piece of the action. Now give him some tactical training and a sub-machine gun, and put him in front of anybody who supposedly broke the law. Anybody else see a problem with this?
- candre23, on 10/12/2007, -2/+36xtmno3: I'd say a world where any person can have their home invaded by armed men, who do not announce their identity or intent, is already deep in a "chaotic mess of anarchy".
How exactly do SWAT teams "protect and serve the society" by killing regular citizens? Do you really believe that America as a society is better off with overzealous military wannabes kicking down doors and shooting anything that moves?
You say "if you are deemed a threat to the rest of us, you will be dealt with", but the whole point is that none of the victims in this article actually posed a threat to anybody. All 6 incidents were cases that clearly did not require a squad paramilitary officers to break into private residences, guns drawn with thier fingers on the triggers.
All these deaths may be "accidental", but accidents like this are much more likely to happen in a SWAT type raid then if uniformed officers knock and announce themselves in the conventional manner.
Mental midget MowingFaces said "Old lady or not, she fired at the cops". I say cops or not, they broke into somebody's house late at night, dressed in black and holding guns. Had it been burglers that she shot, she would have been a hero. Now she's just dead. - jcblitz, on 10/12/2007, -8/+39sometimes rapists are part of the church.
- pegisys, on 10/12/2007, -1/+30""Why the hell wouldn't they gun her down? She shot three SWAT members.""
did you even read what he wrote, she lives in a bad neighborhood and had the gun for protection.
Think if you lived somewhere that you needed to keep a gun close by and then think what you would do if someone kicked in your door in the middle of the night
I think the raids are getting out of hand, SWAT raided two houses on my street and neither one of them were drug house, and AFAIK no on at the houses used drugs. Out of the two raids no arrest were made. either they need to stop going on the first tip they get or need to start doing surveillance first, because these fruitless raids are becoming to common - djSyndrome, on 10/12/2007, -1/+30You mean like the one who shot the kid who was holding a Playstation controller?
- digginestdogg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+30"They busted the door down wearing uniforms that identified them as police AND they identified themselves."
Oh yeah, that makes it okay. It's dark you cannot see who the Hell is storimng into your house no matter if they were wearing nun's habits, but if they just _claim_ they are police you should drop you gun and let who ever it is shoot you, rob you, rape you, whatever because they _claim_ they are police though you cannot see them. My friend police have badges for a reason--becaue talk is cheap and criminals lie. Wait until home invasion gangs learn that trick--just yell "We're police officers" and you win.
Stop watching so much television. Ever been in a gun fight at night? Combat maybe? Of course you haven't otherwise you would say such stupid things. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+30Exactly! And while we are on it, where is the punishment? I'll bet any one of us who ***** up this bad at work gets lucky if they just get fired.
These ***** get paid leave while the "investigation" is under way. And I think we all know how cops protect cops. - davesphone00, on 10/12/2007, -3/+30I wish cops had to pass an IQ test or get a college degree. Almost any idiot can become a cop.
Idiot + Badge + Gun = Trigger-happy, power-abusing cop - Rickler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+26"They busted the door down wearing uniforms that identified them as police AND they identified themselves."
The parent story you are replying to they were plain clothes officers. And this woman was robbed before by people impersonating officers. - Ghstfce, on 10/12/2007, -1/+27Actually in the story from Atlanta, the woman had been burglarized by people in plains clothes claiming to be cops twice in the past few months, which is why her family bought her a gun. When plain clothes cops break down her door claiming to be police, you think she's going to believe them??? It goes with the "fool me once" theory.
As for the man that was sentenced to death... I think that is complete and udder *****. Cop or not, if you kick someones door in and don't announce yourself, expect to be shot. But since this man killed a police officer that didn't properly identify himself, the man is on death row? That's like killing someone in a Jason mask and being put to death immediately because it was the president wearing the mask. But let's be serious, who'd kill you for doing that? =P - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24And if drugs we legal they wouldn't have been digging through their garbage, bursting through their door and shooting someone WHO HAS HURT NO ONE THROUGH HER ACTIONS.
- waynechng, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25@betterth
With my eyesight, if you came into my room and I had just woken up, without my glasses, you could be Prince William or Rick James and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. - mraty, on 10/12/2007, -2/+25Also, she only shot one cop. The other two were hit by "shrapnel". Some speculate that they shot themselves.
- BigKitty, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25The Gestapo are on the loose. We are living in a police state. How come so few people have noticed this?
- MercWorks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+22So much unnecessary death over POT? What is this country coming to ... and why not just legalize it and go after REAL drug dealers?
- smitting, on 10/12/2007, -6/+26Posession of a single seed under Arizona law is a felony.
- prot0col, on 10/12/2007, -2/+22I think the idea is that they do investigation first...not use a paid/unpaid informant. The info from informants is not 100% correct there for they should use this info as a start point not the only intelligence for SWAT activity.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23Sorry, but WE...THE PEOPLE need to start cleaning up our mess. Yes, it is our mess for letting it get out of hand.
The thought of this might scare some of you, as it does me, but when we tell our leaders this is unacceptable and they don't do anything about it, it is on us to fix it.
Men, with guns, should form (and I can't believe the irony of this) groups to protect themselves, their families, and their property from the people who are suppose to be protecting us.
Impossible you say? No, it isn't. Getting a town together and forming a group of at least a 1000+ men ready to punish the mistakes and mishaps of our protectors will work, and work very well.
The police have been pushing more and more to see what they can get away with, like little kids.
It is time for us to spank them, along with the law makers. - PaulNoize, on 10/12/2007, -0/+19i think that the point is that "no-knock" warrants should be held to some minimal standards prior to the raid, namely:
1) Identify the correct housing unit (duh!)
2) If your only evidence is a tip from an informant, attempt some additional investigation to either discredit the informant, or make prosecution easier down the line
3) Have a thorough understanding of what a gun looks like, as opposed to a t-shirt, a sandwich, a wallet, etc.
i know these things kinda suck and make police work "hard", but no one said it was going to be easy. - ISAACHKIP, on 10/12/2007, -0/+19Really... Maybe a meth lab, but some fricking seeds? I mean, what kind of investigation is leading to calling in a SWAT team for some seeds? What state was this? I mean, most places that'd be a little fine, a violation, not even a misdemeanor...
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23@bet
They did, says who? Them? Yeah, I believe them......
And let me ask, how coherent are you at 3:30 in the morning (or whenever the middle of your sleep cycle is)? Fumbling and bumbling is all you'd be doing and would you even believe someone yelling police? How could you? I wouldn't
*****, I'm surprised she got three of them. That is awesome. Good riddance to three gestapo enforcers of occupied Amerika. - eldar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22hey mowingfaces, I bet your tune would change VERY quickly if it was one of your family shot but inept swat police.
I bet if someone was to kick in your door, you would defend yourself too. If it is a normal criminal, you will probably live. If it is swat, well you will die cause lately our police can do nothing but ***** up! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18Gives new meaning to the term Shaq Attaq.
- waynechng, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18@xtmno3
Wait till they come and shoot your ass by accident ... they'd be protecting us and you'd were just a casualty of that, I'm sorry...
What a stupid rationale ... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18That poor lady did everything right.
Anyone who kicks in my door and storms into my house will be shot dead. It may turn out later that they were raising money for the boy scouts or that they were cops, but they will be just as dead.
Moral of the story:
If you expect not to be shot dead like a criminal, don't come into my house acting like you are one. - noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16Emigration is starting to sound better and better...
New Zealand, save me a spot. - betterth, on 10/12/2007, -30/+43"1: Seeds??!??!??? Last I checked seeds weren't illegal.
2: Reasonable doubt. Unless they grew those seeds or performed some DNA analysis how could they prove that they where marijuana seeds??? Lots of seeds look alike!
3: Illegal search and seizure? Trash maybe public domain, but why the hell would they look there with out a reason?"
Are you an idiot?
2. Reasonable doubt? How can they prove they're marijuana seeds? ***** easily. You don't have to test the DNA of a seed to determine what plant it's from. Take a botany course or something, jesus. DNA testing is used to determine things like where blood came from, or parentage.
3. You debunked yourself. It's impossible to illegally search and seize public domain. if you threw it away, they have every right to search and take it. It doesn't matter if you're a ***** saint, they have every right to take it.
How are you getting dugg up? Your comments lack even a basic understanding of criminal justice and the police system.... - kamiller, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16I agree, the "churchgoing" reference means nothing. If someone tells you how holy they are make sure you keep your eyes on them, they are usually the most corrupt foul people around.
That being said I definitely don't agree with no knock warrants. In a country of armed citizens you have to expect you could get shot busting in someone's door without warning. They probably should've done a little research to see if registered gun owner lives there before kicking in the door. - VAPerson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12SWAT teams are the same as using the military for law enforcement. It is a sad thing that we really do live in a police state. I live near where the guy was shot in Fairfax and I am so pissed that the district attorney didn't file charges against the SWAT member that "accidentally" fired. The VICTIM was unarmed and had zero history of violence. The raid was in the daylight and the guy was outside in the open. The SWAT member should not have even had his finger on the trigger. He violated all the "special" training they supposedly have. How is that not negligent homicide? The district attorney in Fairfax, VA has NEVER filed charges against a cop and he's been in office for some ridiculous number of years approaching or exceeding 40. No charges in 40 YEARS! If you know how big Fairfax VA is, you know there must have been instances were charges were warranted.
The sad thing is if a regular person accidentally shot someone they'd have the book thrown at them and have every charge imaginable filed against them. This cop had all this extra training so he should be considered even more negligent than the average joe. It's the government protecting its own @ss at the expense of the people. - Popdmb, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14I'll take the rapists for 20.
- irieKEN, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12I don't get it... why were they conducting a no-knock raid for a drug bust? If they had a warrant to conduct a raid (for marijuana), wouldn't policy have directed them to conduct a warrant authorized search, rather than a para-military raid?
Sigh, what a bunch of assclowns. - MYarms, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Thats what happens when you let a basketball player pretend to be a cop and do something he has no clue about.
- Mudgy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11It is obvious by reading the story that we should not ban SWAT teams, but rather stop raiding home for marijuana. Really, how bad is it?
- martel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11When you have a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
When you have a SWAT... - p00p, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@Spire3660: I agree.
Some people dispute no-knocks on whether the police have uniforms on or not, but really it doesn't matter to the dead whether the police were in uniform. Uniform or not, police have no place in my house unless I let them in. If they kick in my door they deserve to get wasted. - mabhatter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9either way, we have a RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS... Drawing weapons, even on an officer, is NOT nor should not be a crime!!! let alone a death sentence. Everybody has to have time to identify themselves and their intentions.. that's what "no-knock" raids are all about.. not allowing somebody the chance to surrender peacfully because they MIGHT do the wrong thing. So they show up, in military armor, riot gear and sub machine guns... that's not PROTECTING the citizens...even the citizens that are flaming guilty... it's martial law.
What's worse is that they KNOW many states don't have the death penalty, so their goal is to "draw fire" while they have overwhelming numbers... then they "get their man". Eventually the states will have to act on this. Simple mob management demands that they need to put a few "good officers" in the ground for the public's sake... and yes, I mean INNOCENT officers... they need to "take one for the team" ... after all it's a WAR they want. The alternative is finding a bunch of local diggers and dressing up in 'riot gear" and visiting our local police at their homes. I'm sure we could find an appropriate agency under "homeland security" we could claim to be from... but would of course "neither confirm nor deny" we were actually authorized. That could be a lot of fun!! - krakkinem, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9This kind of thing is EXACTLY what I thought would happen because of that stupid ***** "no knock" law. They're going to kick someone's door down who happens to be holding a weapon (or have it nearby), this person will be confused and very frightened, and they will use the weapon to defend themselves. It puts police lives at risk, it puts civilian lives at risk, and it is a violation of our basic human rights.
All of this because the police want to have the element of surprise. They don't want people to have the time to flush drugs or hide stuff. But how many innocent people and cops are going to die before they realize that this is a horrible idea? Hopefully more police than innocent civilians, that's what I'm hoping for. -
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