What is Digg?Warning: The Content in this Article May be Inaccurate
Readers have reported that this story contains information that may not be accurate.Sponsored by newegg
Tips to be first in line without camping out in the cold! view!
newegg.com - The Pre-Black Friday Sale. No Lines, No Crowds; Click and Save in the comfort of your own home.
62 Comments
- nandorocker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I also applaud Brazil's audacity, although a lot of what we pioneer, is poorly studied and doesn't work right! :)
1 Liter gas in Sao Paulo ~ US$ 1.15
That said, 1 GALLON = 3.78 L; which makes 1 gallon of fuel in Brazil worth close to US$ 4.35
Here in Chicago, today, you paid $ 3.50 in average last time I checked. In the suburbs it's closer to $3.00
So gas is not cheaper in Brazil than in the US. - dragonmantank, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Just to play devils advocate, but does Brazil pay people not to grow corn like they do in the US? I would think that if we are telling people not to grow a certain crop, it is because the market would become so saturated with it the price would drop, therefore making it not worth growing. If Ethanol hit it big, couldn't the savings go into making it cleaner?
(Disclaimer: Everything I know about farming comes from SimFarm. Thanks Maxis!) - eric0213, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Also, Brazil gets most of their ethanol from sugar cane. When gas prices go up, more sugar cane is diverted to ethanol. When gas prices go down, more sugar is exported.
Man, I feel like an ethanol lobbyist right now. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I agree, but I'd like to point out some of the misrepresentations in the article.
1) Brazil spent $9 billion on Ethanol conversion, but has saved $50 billion from importing less oil. The money was spent on building the infrastructure necessary. Looks like a good investment, and the article doesn't give tell you that.
2) He said he doesn't remember anyone using an ethanol car, but over 70% of the vehicles in Brazil use Ethanol.
3) He complains that sugar prices fluctuate, and thus it may become more economical for sugarcane growers to produce sugar rather than ethanol. How is that different from oil cartels? Government intervention is not per se a bad thing, and they do it all the time with oil prices.
The article is full of innaccuracies, misrepresentations, lies, and sensationalism. - ramiro, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12He is right. In Brazil, few wanted the crappy ethanol-powered cars. They had comparatively very poor resale value and durability. The only example Brazil can offer in energy is that their most sold cars are gas misers (1.0 liter engines). Miser to the point that if you want to get into the highway traffic, you almost have to turn off the AC to get power enough to accelerate.
- d00ley, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9The poor writing aside... The article is pretty inaccurate.
- eric0213, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Ethanol is primarily transported by train.
- d00ley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Most ethanol in the US is currently derived from corn, which I agree is not at all the ideal crop to use. It is true, corn is subsidized as well as the end product, ethanol. However, there are technologies only a year or two away that will allow for the production of ethanol rather cheaply. Ethanol from sugarcane is economical now and is starting to be grown in the southeast. It will be interesting to see how this progresses. I'm guessing that our future will hold a myriad of different fuels derived from many sources as opposed to our traditional tendency to find a single killer app.
- d00ley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6You are referring to starch derived ethanol, which is pretty well established as not economically feasible aside from initiating the transition. Cellulose derived ethanol is where the future lies... especially ethanol derived from hemp.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12Buried as lame for one main reason: It cost Brazil so much money to transition to Ethanol because this program was started in the late 70's under the ruling military junta. They were pioneering this decades before it was even a topic in the US. They had to build an infrastructure for it. Such things don't come cheap, but fuel in Brazil is now cheaper than it is in the US.
- gemlarin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5E85 does nothing to your gas tank, its harmful effects are shown primarily on the rubber and plastic components of the fuel system (unless you have a plastic tank). However that is a problem rarely seen in todays vehicles. 15% ethanol has been standard in gasoline for years and the vehicle manufacturers have compensated for this fact by improving the structure of the exposed components to better withstand the caustic effects of the ethanol.
- d00ley, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Ethanol doesn't have the same transportation requirements as petroleum. It can be grown, processed and distributed on a regional basis.
- eric0213, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7The standard 10% ethanol blend in unleaded gasoline doesn't oxidize the gas tank or cause any issues with engines. And the e-85 doesn't do anything detrimental to cars that are designed for the flex fuel. Besides aren't gas tanks now made out of plastic and I don't think plastic oxidizes, does it?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7We've had ethanol and petrol blends for years. A gas station about a mile from me has that blend (Enmark). If it were tough to blend, then I suppose their gas would cost more. It doesn't.
- d00ley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yes. Hemp is very cheap to grow and doesn't require fertilizers and pesticides, which are the major cost of farming most crops. You can actually grow healthy hemp crops on land that has been "destroyed" by over farming or poor farming practices. Not only will the hemp thrive, but it rejuvenates the soil, preparing it for new use for other crops. Hemp is probably the most amazing crop we have. This sounds silly until you really research all the derivatives that can be produced from hemp using relatively cheap and simple technologies.
- swankboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4d00ley, it doesn't cost more because all ethanol in this country is subsidized. So at the pump you're not paying full price, but someone (including probably yourself) is paying taxes to pay for people pumping ethanol.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Vegetable oil is a finite resource. If everybody used it, the price would skyrocket. It is no more renewable than ethanol.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Read this if you want to see what is possible:
http://digg.com/general_sciences/60s_Ford_Engine_Modified_to_Run_On_Anything
Here's another one:
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=23399
We can eliminate gasoline use right now. The technology already exists, and we don't have to be stuck with pure Ethanol or any single fuel. - dutra, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I am a Brazilian living in Sao Paulo, and I must say I was appalled by the article about ethanol in Brazil. The author is an unknown teacher in a country town with no credentials whatsoever. How come his article ended up at the site is a mystery to me.
It is just a pack of lies. It seems the man is an eco-freak. In Brazil, we can find ethanol in EVERY gas station. 80% of cars leaving the factories have flex fuel engines, which are economic and modern. I had alcohol driven cars, and they all ran great. They run FASTER than the gasoline counterparts ! They are just excellent and have BETTER resale value. All I can say is that the article is a pack of lies.
The sugar cane is harvested mostly with high tech huge machines. Semi-slave and child labor in those farms are a creation of a crazy mind.
Brazil was one of th few country who achieved self sufficiency in oil, partly because of ethanol. I believe the eco-freaks to be funded by huge foundations like the Rockefellers, so they can keep the oil scam going on. Just see what they put up in Alaska right now. - Marty1h, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9Ethanol must be transported by truck, no pipeline. It is difficult to blend at the refinery. Ehtanol has almost less than half the BTUs of diesel and far less BTUs than gasoline. Ethanol may very well succeed, but only because politicians smell voter advantage.
- luistux, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@ ramiro: So how does digging comunism is related to synthespian's knowledge of flex-fuel engines?
Late ethanol cars are awesome, a lot of gasoline cars that have a decent fuel injection system will work on ethanol as a matter of fact. And yes, most new cars made in Brazil are flex-fuel cars.
One thing to consider, the reason why they buy 1.0 liter engine cars is not because of the ethanol being used, most gas cars in Brazil are 1.0 engines regardless of fuel. Why? They drive mostly in stop and go traffic not freeways, the extra cost in fuel is not something most people in Brazil can afford, Brazilians are not as spoiled as Americans when it comes to cars, they're not seen as a right or a necessity, they're seen as a comodity.
My opinion? All cars should be made with flex-fuel engines. Why? Then the driver gets to choose what to use, besides high compression engines(needed to run on ethanol) are more fuel efficient so it'll benefit the driver even if he/she decides to use gas only. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3D00ley is absolutely right. Hemp grows practically anywhere, and with the minimum of care (unless you're growing the narcotic variety, where you want potency). It is much more economical than corn, it may even be more economical than sugar cane.
- sapo916, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Agreed, some of those comments he put are really innaccurate and sound like a Teenager just passing off anything he thinks is right as facts.
- pevensen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3A friend of mine, who lives in Brazil, says essentially the same thing. Most ethanol pumps he know of are EMPTY. No one wants an ethanol car, etc.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@traviskicks
It is true. My source is here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-570288889128950913 - Sp0rAdiC, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I don't know if I figured this right, but $9b in 1975 would be $34b~ now, and $9b in 1989 would be $14b now. If these costs were spread over 14 years, you'd have between $2.4b/year and $1b/year. As comparison, the US's Department of Defense's budget in 2005 was over $400b. Am I wrong does something not seem right there?
- d00ley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The future of hydrogen is exciting. The problems of infrastructure are not major barriers in view of recent technological developments. In fact, already they are finding that you can have efficient local production using engineered algae, which can be amazing. There's one experiment where the CO2 output from a coal fired power plant is used by the algae which then produce H2 gas. In addition, the oil is extracted from the algae to produce biodiesel. Then the material left can be used for feed for many livestock. Pretty amazing possibilities.
- joelito, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Think of the Jungle!!!
What worries me is the amount of trees that have to be cut in order to clear the land for sugar cane plantations. Hopefully, the ecological disaster that it produces does not degrade into conditions similar to Haiti. - vawlk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Ethanol in the US isn't meant to be a replacement. It is meant to slowly ween ourselves off of oil as the infrastructure needed for future technologies can be developed. Ethanol isn't the end game, just a stepping stone. We couldn't produce enough ethanol for every car to be E85 anyway.
The future is in hydrogen and even though they have working fuel cell cars, there is no infrastructure to support a large implementation. That takes time....which ethanol will give us. - ramiro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2That is a pretty cool site. Thanks for sharing!
- skyorbit, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3For the record. The comment I made that got buried, was referring to ethanol in general. Not Brazilian ethanol. Hence the reason I was referring to corn because I'm in the U.S.
Tracy - dutra, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3There is no tropical jungle where sugar cane is planted !!! Check your geography. This is a highly technological culture, mostly in the state of Sao Paulo, 2,000 miles from the Amazon.
Please let's bury this story, unless you are a Rockefeller. - apeweek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Come on! Stop teasing us and tell us what used EV car are you talking about!"
Here's a picture and description: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/775
Look around on that site, you'll see used EVs for sale. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"80% of people" buy flex fuel cars because that's all the manufacturers offer!
It's getting pretty hard to find a new car that runs only on gasoline in Brazil... - ramiro, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Synthespian, you're an idiot. You dugg "Cubans enjoy communism". You're the one who needs to check your facts... and check your head too.
- ramiro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Come on! Stop teasing us and tell us what used EV car are you talking about!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2They may run faster on ethanol, but they spend more fuel too. So get ALL the facts straight.
- Vryz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2That article is completely incoherent. I can barely make sense of it.
- spktrue, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This Audubon article on the environmental impact of corn-based ethanol, 2 years old now, is still worth a look: http://magazine.audubon.org/incite/incite0408.html .
- plutarch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Meh, everyone knows that 94% of all Internet statistics are made up on the spot
- thirdtenor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1And it should be noted that, most commercial fertilizer & pesticides are petroleum based. It is these products (along with fuel for harvesting and refining) which critics often cite as creating the negative energy imbalance associated with biofuel production.
- GoatJuggler, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The author is basically telling ethanol enthusiasts to get off his sugarcane lawn.
- plutarch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The guy who wrote the article has a site with drawings of people dressed up in fur suits groping one another.
Sorry, I think I'll trust "scientists" and not some crackpot on the internet when deciding which type of fuel to use. - Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Ethanol is a red herring perpetuated by people who want oil to remain supreme. If you are going to use crops for fuel, biodiesel or straight vegetable oil is vastly superior.
- apeweek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I see talk here of ethanol, biofuel, hydrogen etc. but what about electric vehicles? We all know about the range problem, but in every other way they beat the pants off the alternatives. I bought a used EV, replaced the batteries and fixed it up for a total of $6000. I have replaced 1300 miles/month of typical driving - $225 in gasoline - with $8 in electricity.
Lead-acid batteries are old technology, but also cheap. The batteries in my car cost only $800, and with care can last me nearly 8 years. That's about what I would have spent for oil changes in my previous car. - ramiro, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Stop using straw men. He didn't say anything about tropical jungle.
- synthespian, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6This was the 80s. Nowadays, the majority of cars are flex-fuels. The technology improved. Nobody wants a car that relys only on gasoline. Check your facts.
- karmajunkie, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2well, the author posted his article to lewrockwell.com... credibility's shot out of hand. 'nuff said.
- nandorocker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Previous comment was replied in the wrong place. My bad. Should be at the bwd01 comment. Makes more sense?
- websnarf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@nandorocker: You forgot to add in the price of the war(s) in Iraq into your calculation. You also forgot to factor in *where* the money goes at the end of the day. For example, what percentage of the Ethanol price that you pay goes to foreign countries? And what percentage of the oil price goes to foreign countries?
If the prices are roughly in the same range of each other, and the difference is Americans paying Americans instead of Americans paying Saudis, then you can subsidize the price difference with a tax levy against rich people (including the people getting rich off making Ethanol *INSIDE* the US.) By comparison, the US cannot tax rich Saudi Arabians, or Iranians to help defray the cost of gasoline. -
Show 51 - 62 of 62 discussions
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is