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59 Comments
- novenator, on 04/26/2009, -3/+70This is the most manipulative thing that I have seen in politics in my lifetime. It smelled fishy from the start, but far too many people listened to the propaganda and this allowed these bastards to engineer the biggest deception of our generation. The result, an unnecessary invasion of a sovereign country under false pretenses. Tying it all up with torture just compounds the issue even further. Justice must be served with these crooks who make Nixon look like an honest guy.
- Seminarian, on 04/26/2009, -2/+59FTA: The ticking time bomb was not another potential Qaeda attack on America but the Bush administration’s ticking timetable for selling a war in Iraq; it wanted to pressure Congress to pass a war resolution before the 2002 midterm elections. Bybee’s memo was written the week after the then-secret (and subsequently leaked) “Downing Street memo,” in which the head of British intelligence informed Tony Blair that the Bush White House was so determined to go to war in Iraq that “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” A month after Bybee’s memo, on Sept. 8, 2002, Cheney would make his infamous appearance on “Meet the Press,” hyping both Saddam’s W.M.D.s and the “number of contacts over the years” between Al Qaeda and Iraq. If only 9/11 could somehow be pinned on Iraq, the case for war would be a slamdunk.
But there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq, and the White House knew it. Torture may have been the last hope for coercing such bogus “intelligence” from detainees who would be tempted to say anything to stop the waterboarding.
Last week Bush-Cheney defenders, true to form, dismissed the Senate Armed Services Committee report as “partisan.” But as the committee chairman, Carl Levin, told me, the report received unanimous support from its members — John McCain, Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman included.
Now this makes sense--not the fact that they did it--that's just incomprehensibly evil, but a theory for WHY they did it. - dpowersdoc, on 04/26/2009, -1/+40When Hannah Arendt cited the "the lesson of the fearsome, word-and-thought-defying banality of evil," (Eichmann in Jerusalem, 1963) she referred, I believe, to the awful ordinariness of it, the pervasiveness of it, how it had become everyday. Most readers are horrified by what we have learnt of the Bush White House, but few of us are surprised by it. We have come to expect the worst from those in power, and President Bush gave us little reason to expect even that level of excellence from him. It is a crucial irony of our postmodernity that Bush and company represent at once both an enormity and a banality. Seeing the contradiction unfold in criminal and legislative investigations can only help the nation heal and guide us to reconcile the awful opposites of the era.
- mssgill, on 04/26/2009, -1/+35Excellent column -- thanks Mr. Rich. We will get to the bottom of this in America. There is no other choice.
- inactive, on 04/26/2009, -1/+35PROSECUTE. i DON'T CARE IF IT'S REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS, EVERYONE WHO KNEW AND APPROVE OF THIS ABOMINATION SHOULD FACE JAIL TIME. sorry caps abuse, this just makes me SO ***** ANGRY.
- 08soso, on 04/26/2009, -0/+32What gets little attention in all this is how we prosecuted people at the bottom of the rung, despite their claim that they were just "following orders", all the while knowing that they were in fact following orders. And now, no less than the President of the United States is saying that the people who followed orders, believing it was legal because of fig leaf legal memos [not believing it was morally right] will not be prosecuted, and raising questions about whether the people who issued and condoned this systematic use of torture will be prosecuted. While the grunts who committed the abuses photographed in the Abu Graib scandal may have deserved some punishment, it is also a travesty that the people up the line of command who were really responsible have gotten off scot free so far and that there are many people who are either defending their actions or neutral to the whole affair. I am so sick at what has been done in my name and those of every other American who believed we were better than this.
- inactive, on 04/26/2009, -2/+31Torture to produce false info to justify their unnecessary war. No WMD's, No Al Oaeda, but still we were the "great liberators"- un- *****-believable!
- redcolumbine, on 04/26/2009, -0/+27The marrow:
"The report found that Maj. Paul Burney, a United States Army psychiatrist assigned to interrogations in Guantánamo Bay that summer of 2002, told Army investigators of another White House imperative: “A large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful.” As higher-ups got more “frustrated” at the inability to prove this connection, the major said, “there was more and more pressure to resort to measures” that might produce that intelligence."
Torture was employed with a specific confession - that would "justify" attacking Iraq - as the goal. - digg4peace, on 04/26/2009, -2/+28fta:
"The White House, Congress and politicians of both parties should get out of the way. We don’t need another commission. We don’t need any Capitol Hill witch hunts. What we must have are fair trials that at long last uphold and reclaim our nation’s commitment to the rule of law."
Absolutely! - meese, on 04/26/2009, -4/+22Obama's handling this well, and appropriately. He's not out there demanding investigations because that would cause the media and the GOP to cry "partisan witch hunt" and then Washington would grind to a halt. Instead, Obama's not standing in the way of the public knowing the truth -- he's releasing documents -- and he's letting us the citizens decide whether we want an investigation.
- m3arvk, on 04/26/2009, -0/+12Great article.
- jadedsunrise, on 04/26/2009, -0/+11I don't know what is more sad, that this article brings together the terrifying truth.
Or that the truth was available to us for years and we all blindly believed our country.
Never again - inactive, on 04/26/2009, -2/+12Torture = Terror
- NanFan, on 04/26/2009, -0/+10My favorite part of this wonderful op-ed piece:
"But there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq, and the White House knew it. Torture may have been the last hope for coercing such bogus 'intelligence' from detainees who would be tempted to say anything to stop the waterboarding.
Last week Bush-Cheney defenders, true to form, dismissed the Senate Armed Services Committee report as 'partisan.' But as the committee chairman, Carl Levin, told me, the report received unanimous support from its members — John McCain, Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman included."
I gotta say, I laughed till my gut practically broke at the dismissal of the SASC report as "partisan." From the mouths of the most partisan group ever to run this country??? Not worth a dime! And...
Are you kidding? Since when does partisanship have anything to do with the facts of torturing other human beings, whatever the reason? I don't care if you have a D or an R after your name; if you torture in MY NAME, as a public servant, you are a criminal!
Remember Nuremberg? I think everyone in the Obama Administration, the US Congress, and the US Supreme Court should watch that movie or listen to the actual tapes from that trial. It will bring them "ta Jesus," as they say.
Finally, there should be NO lawyer who goes before Judge Bybee who does not say, "I do not recognize you as a fair and impartial judge; you are a criminal, and I will not have my case heard by you!"
Great article; should be read by everyone!
Nan - inactive, on 04/26/2009, -2/+11Who else when they saw the title thought of this song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq0GAkZp5AA
Oh, and of course, Bush/Cheney/Rummy/etc should all be put on trial for war crimes. - fleyinberdy, on 04/26/2009, -1/+9In this column, Frank Rich tears Judge Bybee a new one like never before for his "pornographic amorality." Brilliant wordsmithing, and I think he's found an appropriate target.
I'm not saying Bybee should be deprived of his liberty, but he should at least be removed from a position where his judgment carries legal weight. - ForumDriv, on 04/26/2009, -0/+8Frank Rich is a great gift almost every week.
- Shastaman, on 04/26/2009, -0/+6Think about the future too. Many of these torturers will be getting new jobs someday. Maybe with your local police department. Their "skills" will live on.
- Seminarian, on 04/26/2009, -1/+7I've seen that rationale before, and it makes a certain amount of sense, but I think it falls short. If someone raped your sister (even if it was, say, the former mayor who appears to have done it, or to have ordered it done) you wouldn't want the newly-elected mayor saying things like, "we need to look forward, not back." You'd want law enforcement to do its job. I also fail to see how having law enforcement do its job would interfere with the legislative and executive branches doing their jobs.
- greendalek, on 04/26/2009, -0/+6VERY well said.
- jadedsunrise, on 04/26/2009, -1/+7You didn't even check , did you? I can read the article fine and I'm not a NY times register.
- novenator, on 04/26/2009, -0/+6it has a random register page. 9/10 times at least you can read the articles without it.
- NanFan, on 04/26/2009, -0/+5And you don't think they doctored those documents becaaaauuusssseeee?????
And torture is never a moral methodology for "saving lives."
Nan - buckrogers1965, on 04/26/2009, -0/+5Today, on the United Nations International Day in Support of Victims
of Torture, the United States declares its strong solidarity with
torture victims across the world. Torture anywhere is an affront to
human dignity everywhere. We are committed to building a world where
human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law.
Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right. The Convention
Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment,
ratified by the United States and more than 130 other countries since
1984, forbids governments from deliberately inflicting severe physical
or mental pain or suffering on those within their custody or control.
Yet torture continues to be practiced around the world by rogue
regimes whose cruel methods match their determination to crush the
human spirit. Beating, burning, rape, and electric shock are some of
the grisly tools such regimes use to terrorize their own citizens.
These despicable crimes cannot be tolerated by a world committed to
justice.
-- President G. W. Bush June 26, 2003 - Hrodrik, on 04/26/2009, -0/+5Wait a minute, the Bush administration lied? NO FOCKIN WAAAAAY!
But still some people believe that these corporate lackeys were/are trying to do what's best for them.
Welcome to reality, America. - MalenfantX, on 04/26/2009, -0/+5Yes, the Bush administration knew what they were doing was wrong, and are terrorists, but it's strange that you say waterboarding isn't torture when we know that it is.
- inactive, on 04/26/2009, -0/+5First: Your argument that waterboarding isn't torture is only credible if you've actually had it done to you, and you think it's quite pleasant.
Second: That is exactly what the terrorists want. They want to erode ourt freedoms, the very things that give us the moral high ground. Countries and organisations like Iran, and the Taliban are wrong, not because they have their opinions, but because they refuse to consider anybody else's. By lowering ourselves to torture, we lose that high ground, and any moral authority we may have against them. - ForumDriv, on 04/26/2009, -0/+5Maybe you should register?
- NanFan, on 04/26/2009, -1/+6Well said!
Nan - PhilPerspective, on 04/26/2009, -0/+4I don't know. I never have that problem(Weird, I know). Others like you seem to have it all the time. :-( I know people that will bury this(and other NYT stuff like Krugman's) just because of the registering nonsense.
- JumpingJack79, on 04/27/2009, -0/+3Of course we can get proof that torture works. Just torture someone long enough to "confess" it. (sarcasm)
- ElChapusero, on 04/26/2009, -1/+4Too little too late. The media was as supportive of the lies of the war as the previous administration.
- m3arvk, on 04/26/2009, -0/+3They lovingly invoke the word "President" like it was still the 1960s. They batter people's minds with terms like "patriotism", "support the troops". They outright lie or manufacture evidence to support their hidden (what else could it be?) agendas. Did I mention that they have hidden agendas? What are they? Who are their masters? What are their goals? We know they are not honest.
These people are clearly criminals. That is took the better part of 8 years for the majority of Americans to see it shows how brainwashed people have become by our corporate culture. - rpgmakr, on 04/26/2009, -0/+3Specially looking how the 9/11 commission turned out to be such a joke I don't want another ***** commission.
- m3arvk, on 04/26/2009, -0/+3Sorry my friend. People will always complain about being held accountable. Let Obama get the prosecutions going and let the GOP and democrat politicians stand on their convictions (as if they have any good ones).
I think this country is aware enough know to know ***** when it sees it (after 8 years of it).
Having to deal with whiny politicians isn't as important as going after these master criminals. Why is there any question at all as to what to do? Criminality is criminality irregardless of your wealth, position and status. If anything we should be pursuing this _more_ aggressively because it was from the highest office in our country. - bsmang, on 04/26/2009, -0/+2Speak for yourself "blindly believing."
- MalenfantX, on 04/26/2009, -0/+2When you can't, you need to delete the NewYorkTimes cookie on your PC and refresh the page.
- JumpingJack79, on 04/27/2009, -0/+2This is just like in the dark ages. "You'll be tortured until you confess you're a witch. And after you confess, we'll execute you for witchcraft. And justice will be served."
- buckrogers1965, on 04/26/2009, -0/+2What I love is that they are completely inconsistant and yet the sheeple still follow them.
For years they screamed "you are a traitor unless you blindly support the president" and now the same people are threatening to revolt against the country. That is what the teabagging means, it goes back to the start of the American Revolution. - kenhatesemos, on 04/26/2009, -0/+2for some reason whever i click on a new york times article through digg it always asks me to register in order to view the article. everyone else seems not to have this problem. why me?
- inactive, on 04/27/2009, -0/+2yes because getting a blowjob is the same as torturing people.to see the face of our nations shame...LOOK in a mirror.
- inactive, on 04/26/2009, -0/+2Absolutely! Though I am a NYT reader, to call these newspapers, Fox News, etc. all of them, investigative journalism is a misnomer. Yes, they may be journalists and reporters only because they "report" what they are told, but they should be ashamed and feel ethically that they are as responsible as any in this mess.
There were a minority of people, myself included, who had raised voices that this past administration had been abandoning the Constitution and engaging in criminal activities from the moment that Iraq was invaded. Democrats voted, not on what they thought to be right, but on behalf of their own political careers. Newspapers carried the outrage of the fear propagated by Bush and Cheney as stories to sell product.
I'm getting tired of the people who now claim to have their eyes opened to what as happening. It was apparent all the time! Yet, at the same time I understand when the people, the majority of whom have little interest in day-to-day politics, want to believe in their government.
And that is exactly why Bush and Cheney should be investigated and tried before a court. The people naturally put their blind faith in their leaders. Their President betrayed them. If we are ever going to be able to have faith that the government will hold a high moral ground, will be in full service of what is good for the country, then these two need to be held accountable in the name of future administrations. - rpgmakr, on 04/26/2009, -0/+2But the media is already doing that, making the release of the memos something partisan.
- inactive, on 04/27/2009, -0/+2Even after he is gone i am still able to be amazed by the pure EVIL of the bush administration.
- NanFan, on 04/26/2009, -0/+2I so agree. I am sickened, too. However, it was the "grunts" DUTY to NOT follow orders, just as it is President Obama's duty to call for prosecution of these cowardly people who led this country down the drain in our names.
We must push Obama and Holder to prosecute. We can't, and we shouldn't ever, ever stop.
Nan - ichthus007, on 04/29/2009, -0/+1I registered. It is free and I registered through an email address I reserve for things like this.
- ichthus007, on 04/29/2009, -0/+1Maybe these gentlement should be required to read (a novel concept) Joseph Conrad's "The Heart of Darkness" but I am not at all certain they are sensitive enough to get the point. Hannah Arendt's "Eichman in Jerusalem" would not get it done either. No...let us subject them to that which they advocate. W. T. Sherman allegedly said, "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." Torture is the remedy these men have chosen. Let us propose they receive as much as they can bear or shut up about it forever.
- buckrogers1965, on 04/26/2009, -0/+1So by killing people we can save people? How does that work?
- JumpingJack79, on 04/27/2009, -0/+1I'd still say that Bush&Cheney are somewhat more responsible than the NYT.
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