What is Digg?244 Comments
- Dantetheinferno, on 10/12/2007, -12/+99Nine mistakes.
Maybe you should go to any school... - Desslok, on 10/12/2007, -4/+85@JAVindiver:
Perhaps you need to go to music school. That's from Twisted Sister, not Quiet Riot. ;) - oskite, on 10/12/2007, -34/+82"Students can organize prayer groups and religious clubs and announce their meetings."
What about anti-religious clubs? Me and a friend started an atheist club at our school this year. If people jump all over me for it not being 'religious'...
I wish this article hadn't used Bible studies as a primary example. 'Religious studies' and 'holy books' would have been more appropriate, since I see the main problem as Christians suppressing other religions and atheism, not them feeling suppressed by secularism.
"...God-given rights..."
Oh, the irony. - DyDx, on 10/12/2007, -18/+56Are you daft? Atheism is not a religion. It is the distinct lack of one, as a matter of fact.
As for the OP, I don't think a school would have any good grounds for stopping a club like that, as long as you didn't advocate intolerance of religious people. - freehunter, on 10/12/2007, -1/+33drmangrum:
There are no canonical books on Atheism.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? - drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -15/+45Atheism is not a religion. There are no large gatherings of Atheists to harp on the virtues of Atheism. There are no canonical books on Atheism. There is no Atheists belief structure. There are no Atheist holy grounds. There is no worship.
Atheism is the idea that there are no super-natural beings. None.
Agnosticism is the idea that there is a possibility no matter how far fetched. - thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -10/+36Please keep your bigoted view of religion out of my schools.
- argoff, on 10/12/2007, -24/+49hmmmm, hey anyone else notice how the issue of searches, the issue of gay teachers and students, the issue of evolution, the issue of school prayer, and school bullying, are not big issues in private schools?
Well that's because in a private system no school is obligated to cater to a student/parent and no student/parent is obligated to pay money to the school - it creates a very strong incentive for both of them to minimize conflict and work things out. In places like Hong Kong where they don't have a public school system, they get to focus on things like education instead of ***** - and now people wonder why the US has a big education problem?
The moral should be that people can have liberties or freebies, but never both. When the government does things for us, it is impossible for them not to take sides, micromanage, it is impossible for them not to dictate their values to one group or another, it is impossible to take the "higher ground" or a conflict free solution on any issue, and it is impossible for them not to constantly be threatening and watering down our other liberties. - GraceMolloy, on 10/12/2007, -37/+59I may get dugg down for this but I don't care;
I'm a Christian myself and I have a BIG problem with those of my ilk that go around giving people crap for not being religious, or not religious is "our" way.
BUT
At least the "vast majority" of us aren't plotting your brutal murder for not believing in Allah. So, it could be worse ... I'd much rather deal with mouthy idiots than some guy out to blow me to bits. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -19/+40@drmangrum: The worship of Dawkins here on Digg proves you wrong.
- jaredseth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+22argoff,
Where did you get the idea that there's no public education system in Hong Kong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Hong_Kong - Llance, on 10/12/2007, -8/+28Those who think atheism is a religion, have no idea what constitutes atheism, or a religion, or probably both.
Bald ain't a hairstyle, dead ain't a lifestyle, and atheism isn't a goddamn religion!
Sorry, I'm grumpy today. - david76, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19In case anyone is wondering, the 1969 case they're referring to is Tinker vs. Des Moines School District.
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/tinker.html
Another very important case regarding student rights is Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier which deals with student run newspapers and school oversight and review.
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/hazelwood.html
In my high school, (back in '94) our principal quoted from an outdated supreme court ruling stating that our rights ended at the school house gate (this was with regard to searching students upon entering the premises and using metal detectors).
If you're a student know your rights, because your teachers probably don't. - cliffzdude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16Right to prey? Please, do NOT prey on those around you...
- AntBing, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11You have the right to express yourself at school in any way, as long as it is not disruptive to the learning environment. Most non-sanctioned expression takes place before or after school and is therefore tolerated by the administration.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12@argoff
The only problem with privatized schools is that Americans really like to push agendas. It'd be difficult to implement a private school system that wasn't a total sham, and was still affordable by poor people.
We certainly don't want poor people to just not go to school. Enough of them do that as it is. And we really NEED our voters to be educated.
Of course people try to push agendas in our public schools, and often succeed; but at least there's more red tape involved there. - freetyme, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13As long as its student led, and not teacher or faculty led there is nothing wrong with a fasting room, prayer room, or bible study before, or after school, or during lunch. It's freedom of religion not freedom from it. I wish more teachers at my school would see that...
- randomboy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13damn, I was almost hoping that the rights in question were 2nd amendment related.
- drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Having religion in schools isn't bad as long as the faculty and staff stay out of it during official school time.
If the kids want to have some bible study with a teacher then they can stay after school. They cross the line when a teacher loses their objectiveness and refuses or misrepresents a topic based on their religious beliefs. - akzidenzgrotesk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10actually, around christmastime i heard from american's united for the seperation of church and state about a school where the teachers sent home all the students with little flyers for some christian prayer event. a wiccan child's parents thought that if the christians were allowed to do it, then they should be too, so the next day the kids were all sent home with flyers for a yule ceremony. of course, all the fundie parents were aghast that their children were exposed to paganism and got all up in arms, but the school just threw up their hands and said "hey, get over it. if you're allowed to evangelize, then so is everyone else."
that story sort of warmed my heart. someday people will start to realize that equal rights goes both ways. - DyDx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Because if it was a Catholic school it was a private school. Therefore you were on private property and you have to do what they say (as long as it's not a CRIME of course -- but violating "rights" isn't a crime, it's a civil offense). This article is only talking about public schools.
- AndrewJC, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14@purplegecko:
'Atheism is still a belief - that there is no "super-natural beings".'
Well, traditionally, atheism is the LACK of a belief in *A* god. It's only recently that atheism has been adapted to mean an ACTIVE belief in NO God. The difference is subtle but significant. - JAVandiver, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14My apologies...
Note to self:
Remove shoe, open mouth, insert foot. - DyDx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I'm glad they published this article. I'm sick of hearing the myth that you have no rights in a public school.. IT'S PUBLIC SCHOOL! Of course you have rights. It's a private school that can do whatever it wants.
I just wish this mentioned some of the other first 10 amendments.. - TheGilmanator, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Yes. It's called "dropping out." Losers do it all the time.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Sounds like just a plain old BAD teacher. regardless of religion.
- Mo0man, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14Of course there shouldn't be a required "prayer period", but religious classes should count. they should be able to take classes in whatever they feel may be useful, or whatever they enjoy. very few people stick with music for their career when they grow up, but people can still take it if they choose.
oh, and your geo teacher is a jackass. - omaryak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It's good to remember that there is free exercise of religion in public schools, but there are other, more important rights that are denied students, like protection from unreasonable search and seizure. School newspapers are also censored on a regular basis in blatant violation of the First Amendment. The problem is so widespread that a poll a couple years back showed that high school students thought censorship of the media was "an okay thing to do." Children aren't being educated on their rights in general. Sure let's talk about free exercise, but let's talk about free speech and privacy too.
- kilikogo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7FSM, anyone?
- nukethewhales, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6The part I don't understad is where it says that "Students may be able to go off campus to have a Bible study during school hours." This would seem to be disruptive if used by everyone. Because if I was in a school that allowed this I would start a Pastafarian club and have a Gospel study group at the Pizza Hut in the mall.
Makes sense to me to only allow Bible Study groups after school or at lunch at schools that allow off-campus lunch. - Arahka, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I went to public schools for 13 years and we were told over and over that we definitely did not have freedom of speech at school. We could not say what we wanted. We could not express our views on things most of the time because they were deemed "disrespectful". I remember many a principle telling kids "you left your freedom of speech at the door. When you're in my school, you're under my rules." There's also a constituitional protection from illegal search and seizure, but in my school (especially after columbine my junior year of High School) we had to sign waivers that said we agreed to be searched at any time. If we didn't we would not be allowed to attend school. That was a public school mind you. This was obviously illegal but no one said a thing. We were always put under the impression that you didn't get any constituitional rights till you turned 18.
- grungegbunny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6here is the thing.. if they are willing to allow all this they have to be willing to allow the WHOLE enchilada..
this includes satanism, demonic teachings, islamic teachings etc..
as the article states.. "Teachers can organize prayer groups and Bible studies."
Teachers then can also organize study groups for satanism, occult type teachings, metaphysics.. etc..
do you see my drift? - eclipseyue, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I personally couldn't care as long as it doesn't affect me. I don't want to be disturbed by everyone praying in the middle of hallways etc. I've had fair trouble enough trying to get classes, and the particular school I go to has to have some of the worst people running the school ever. Trying to add some "prayer" rooms or some such thing will only lead to more confusion and chaos than there already is. I just want to go and sleep in my classes properly. Besides, I have already gotten into trouble in my high school for wearing an "I *pictographic heart* satan" t-shirt, in big pretty blue letters. They tried to force me to take it off. This seriously pissed me off. Anyway, I said I'd take it off when all the religious people took off their "john 3:16" and whatever else religious shirts. Seems it was okay for the them to sport their religion but once I put on a tshirt that doesn't support god, then I couldn't wear it. The funny thing is that I only wear it because I think it's hilarious, and everyone in the school got a nice chuckle out of it also. I still wore that shirt for the rest of that year.
As for - inkyblue2, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12look, there is an answer here, and it requires no bickering.
first, "atheism" is a word that gets used in two different ways: (1) belief that there is no god, and (2) lack of belief in a god. i don't know which one is more correct, but if you watch, you will see otherwise educated people using it both ways interchangably. my only take-home lesson from this has been that if i talk about atheism, i make it clear to specify in which sense i mean it. ("agnosticism" suffers the same fate. it can mean (1) lack of belief in a god, or (2) uncertainty about what to believe.)
second, "religion" can refer to one of two things: (1) a particular set of metaphysical beliefs or articles of faith, or (2) a social institution centered around such a set of beliefs.
so:
yes, atheism(1) is a religion(1), but not much of a religion(2).
no, atheism(2) is not a religion(1) or a religion(2).
inevitably, someone out there is going to say "no way dude, atheism(1) is not a religion(1)!" this is incorrect. atheism(1) is an unfalsifiable belief about metaphysical entities. atheism(1) is defined by an article of faith, not an observable fact about the world. - EsmeTrue, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Group Orgy in Honor of Eros
After School
All students invited!
Isn't religion grand? - mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Yes, I buried it for that reason too. However they are right about one thing: some school administrators are going overboard in the pursuit of separation of church and state. Unbeknownst to many a neocon, the ACLU (with a "U") has supported a number of cases where kids were unlawfully deprived of their right to be religious. For example,
ACLU of New Jersey Defends Second-Grader's Right to Sing Religious Song (6/5/2006)
http://aclu.org/religion/schools/25799prs20060605.html
After ACLU Intervention on Behalf of Christian Valedictorian, Michigan High School Agrees to Stop Censoring Religious Yearbook Entries (5/11/2004)
http://aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12845prs20040511.html
ACLU of MA Defends Students Punished for Distributing Candy Canes with Religious Messages (2/21/2003)
http://aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12828prs20030221.html - eatbeefjerky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5BIG ***** KUDOS
To the Wiccan parents who went right to the heart of the problem rather than calling in a team of lawyers. Please send them a big hug from me. - smokeh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"We apologize for the inconvenience."
-god - JazonBladen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I really believe that charter schools are the future. Whereas public schools have the problem of being completely government controlled, and private schools are too expensive, charter schools are free to go to and free from most of the government regulation. I graduated from a charter school myself, and have found continued success in college.
- Azurensis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5What's the big deal? If a group of students wants to start a religious club, they are perfectly free to do so. As long as the school doesn't discriminate against other religions or groups, what's the problem? Individuals are free to express their religious views, even in school - as long as they aren't being disruptive. School employees, on the other hand, are not. Not during class, anyway.
- sporktek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5The fonts all appear to be of a consistent size.
- bbarr97, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@SaintArium,
You have the freedom to practice or not practice religion. The way you word it "freedom from religion" suggest you should not have to hear, see, smell, taste, or even know that religion exists.
Feel free not to practice it but at the same time you should not be able to make life difficult for everyone because you hear or see someone praying in school.
I may not believe in good but I could care less if everyone got down and prayed on blankets. Too many feel that their discomfort in the situation gives them the right to sue so no one else gets the right to practice it. Your choice, your discomfort. At some point this country will reach where it truly doesn't matter anymore because the number of religions will be so diverse. - mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Noooobody expects a lame religious "cry me a river" ***** switcheroo. Their chief weapon is surprise, surprise and whining... oh, bugger.
- DeepDoo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8@cliffzdude
WTF was that?
You are talking about what students do with regard to interacting with each other.
What does that have to do with anything? Students interacting with other students has nothing to do with the conversation .
If you do not know the definition of indoctrination, look it up in a dictionary. Thats the big book that has all the words and what they mean in it. - FTLJohnson, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Why don't both of you keep your taxes out of my wallet, and go pay for your own damn schools.
- jaredseth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Ah I see where you're coming from argoff: you're not calling those public schools since they're managed by outside organizations, and I was since they're largely government funded.
- DaemonHero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I have two teenagers, 17 and 19. Public school is horrid; it's more like a jail. The rules are arbitrary, the enforcement is arbitrary, they're treated like small children or criminals. They're considered guilty from the start. If someone tries to start a fight with you, if someone walks up and hits you, they get suspended...but so do YOU...for "fighting". There's no appeal, no argument (unless you have the money to sue). It is no wonder my son quit (and aced his GED) and my daughter wants to. It's no wonder they learn more at home than they do there.
I went to high school in the 70s. We were treated like adults unless we acted otherwise.
Oh, and for those of you using "well, do they have the right to bear arms?" as some sort of silly attempt at counter-argument...
I was on my high school SHOOTING TEAM. They GAVE me a gun.
I carried it home slung over my shoulder.
I had several pocketknives and usually a sizable fixed-blade knife on me at any given time.
In Junior High, on Halloween, my math teacher came to school dressed as a cowboy.
With a real Colt Single Action Army in his holster.
These were not rural schools. They were suburban schools in one of the most affluent districts in the Kansas City area.
MY kids can get suspended for drawing a PICTURE of a gun. - heffae, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Depending on how strictly you interpret the constitution it's only congress that can't establish and official religion or prevent someone from worshiping the religion they choose so I guess technically a teacher (who I believe is an employee of the state not the federal government) would legally be in the right to enforce what ever religion they want.
I'm pretty sure there are at least a few supreme court cases that extend the 1st amendment protection to the state level so this isn't actually true. Personally the way I see it is that students should be free to express their beliefs as they see fit as long as it doesn't interfere with other students rights. But teachers during school hours are employees of the state and in a position of authority it is therefor inappropriate for them to endorse a particular religious view. I don't think this extends to voluntary after school clubs.
Yearbooks, School Newspapers, etc. Should be allowed to print things of a religious nature as long as it is presented as the opinion of the author of the piece and not the view of the school. (In fact to prevent students from expressing their views this way may be a violation of the first amendment)
But this is just my two cents - akzidenzgrotesk, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7"Agnostics just aren't sure. We're fence sitters - the worst kind!"
i respectfully disagree with you there. we aren't fence sitters, we are just the only people not so egotistical as to assume we know the answers to everything. sure it's possible there could be a god, hell it's even possible the scientologists (or mormons, or catholics, or buddhists or wiccans or whomever) have been right all along and the rest of us are going to hell (or wherever)!
we simply admit that no one knows, and no one can possibly ever know, so you might as well admit it rather than make a fool of ourselves in the pursuit of someone else's delusional insistence of the truth. - drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@h00paj00
Worship may be going a little far out there. Dawkins gets a lot of air time for one reason: He is one of the only Atheist figure heads. There are a plethora of Christian, Muslim, etc leaders in the world. There are, however, very few openly non-religion leaders. The moment another Atheist becomes known and starts to publish their views, they'll be getting quoted as well. -
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