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31 Comments
- americangoy, on 05/18/2008, -6/+14@ roosevans
"As I see it both Israel and the Palestinians have used "double think" propaganda in support their cause, both have committed atrocities in support of their cause, both have let the extremist factions in their respective societies set their political agendas."
ABSOLUTELY 100% AGREE.
However, in my book the Palestinians are the ones aggrieved and the ones who are the victims of this situation.
I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the Palestinians DID acknowledge Israel's right to exist, except for a certain organization which took over in Gaza.
"The only solution is for Israel to retreat to the pre-1967 borders and for the Palestinians to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, in my opinion."
Not sure if it is the ONLY solution. Lets ask the Palestinians what they want first.
See, here is what everybody is missing here.
"The Arab is a patriot, not a whore," the hardline Zionist leader Vladimir Jabotinsky used to warn his leftwing colleagues back during the 1920s. "He can't be bought off by the promise of economic benefits. And he is just as intelligent as you are."
What the Palestinians need, crave, need more than life is to have their DIGNITY AND HONOR back.
Whether this takes a viable Palestinian state, without Israeli checkpoints, setttlements and Army presence, and / or some form of restitution, is not for me to judge.
The trouble here is not the Palestinians disputing Israel's right to exist, the trouble is Israel not acknowledging the wrongs it has committed, the Nakba, as historical truth.
And by not acknowledging that, Israel does not acknowledge ANY Palestinian grievances.
And when one side does not even acknowledge the other side's points of contention, what is there to negotiate? Answer - nothing.
The sad truth is, that Israel CANNOT acknowledge Palestinian grievances, because to do so would:
1) Turn Israel from a Zionist myth into an oppresive, Apartheid regime a la South Africa (where white Boers, coming from Europe, invaded, took over and lorded it over the natives - SAME situation)
and
2) Make the Arabs the victims - which is unacceptable to the Israeli public relations crew
and
3) Qualify Palestinians for COMPENSATION (JUST LIKE JEWS RECEIVED IT FOR THEIR WRONG AFTER WW2 - and justly so, may I add).
Note to all: Please do not downvote comments you disagree with, except if it is racist to the extreme.
Downvoting and burying is the chief weapon of apologists. - roosevans, on 05/18/2008, -2/+10As I see it both Israel and the Palestinians have used "double think" propaganda in support their cause, both have committed atrocities in support of their cause, both have let the extremist factions in their respective societies set their political agendas. The only solution is for Israel to retreat to the pre-1967 borders and for the Palestinians to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, in my opinion.
- Tangaroa, on 05/18/2008, -1/+8"I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the Palestinians DID acknowledge Israel's right to exist, except for a certain organization which took over in Gaza." -- You are wrong. They never did. This remains one of the chief points of contention between Israel and the PLO.
- inactive, on 05/18/2008, -2/+8England didn't ask them to do *****. The Arab league called it a 'war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.' There was never any intention of helping the Israelis or the Palestinians, as has been seen by the Arab Worlds refusal to help them out in the last 60 years. The intention was always the destruction of the Jewish state and any Jew who opposed them.
- americangoy, on 05/19/2008, -2/+7You are correct, Tangaroa.
- inactive, on 05/19/2008, -1/+5The Palestinians had their own militia groups similarly to the Israelis, the Israelis were just better organised. And somehow i doubt the five Arab nations that invaded sent in 35000 farmers. The five Arab League nations have already stated, inbetween their official line fed to the West, why they went in: to enact a 'war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.' Even their official line admits they went in to destroy the Jewish State.
I don't care how many men the Israelis had in the end. The Soviets heavily outnumbered the Germans by the end; doesn't mean they weren't invaded. - inactive, on 05/17/2008, -9/+13Nakba has a great site about the conquest of Palestine. http://www.alnakba.org/chronology/chronology.htm
It continues to amaze me how people view the Jews as victims in their conquest and occupation of Palestine. I think the reason for this belief is the constant propaganda from the Jewish media. Since the Holocaust Jews are always portrayed as the victims and never portrayed as the aggressors, when in reality the opposite is true. Even after the US was conned into war by the Zionist neocons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_ ...
http://motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/01/12_405 ...
Despite the crimes committed against America by these Zionist Jews who promoted the Iraq war to advance Israeli interests. http://nowarforisrael.com/ and are arguing for war with Iran to advance Zionist interest, Jewish controlled Hollywood has produce one movie dealing with the "War on Terror", it is a movie about Daniel Pearl. Guess what the theme of the movie is, anti-Semitism. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12693442/ So once again Jews are portrayed as victims when in reality they are the aggressors. - monsieurginger, on 05/18/2008, -1/+5Are you telling me that the armies of Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt were still outnumbered by the Hagganah (Israel's defense force at the time which was really just an underground resistance force) which had no tanks, no air force, and had to smuggle most of their weapons into Israel?
- Tangaroa, on 05/17/2008, -9/+12The Nakba is the fact that the Arab-supremacist armies lost their war of genocide against the Jews in 1948 and that the Jews, who they considered an inferior race, managed to establish a free state for all races and religions on land the Arabs wanted for part of the Ummah. That is the Nakba "catastrophe", which is why "Nakba day" is on Israeli Independence Day. Anybody mourning the Nakba is supporting the aggressive racist militarism of the pan-Arabist armies and wishing the genocide upon the Jews had been completed.
- Tangaroa, on 05/18/2008, -6/+9Facts and history? Yes, it's clear that you won't touch them. Better to make up ***** to hate the Jews about.
- americangoy, on 05/17/2008, -6/+9"Anybody mourning the Nakba is supporting the aggressive racist militarism of the pan-Arabist armies and wishing the genocide upon the Jews had been completed."
Uh.
Eh....
Ummm.....
Usually I am very happy to argue with people who question my viewpoints and do some polemics, in the spirit of free speech and intellectual debate.
I am not touching this crap with a ten foot pole. - dkapuchino, on 05/23/2008, -0/+3In the 2000 camp david talks, Ehud Barak offered Arafat an eventual 91% of the West Bank, and all of the Gaza Strip, and additional land in Israel to compensate for the rest of the 9% in the west bank. with Palestinian control over Eastern Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state; in addition, all refugees could apply for compensation of property from an international fund to which Israel would contribute along with other countries. But before any gradual Israeli withdrawal, all Palestinian terrorist infrastructure must be dismantled. Arafat, however, refused. A month later, the Palestinians decided to start the second Intifiada (in which they have been sending missiles and suicide bombers into Israeli towns).
- dkapuchino, on 05/23/2008, -0/+3Here's a fun thing to check. How many countries throughout the middle east allow Arab women citizens to vote, have driving lessons, and drive cars. Israel does.
- Silvbird, on 05/17/2008, -7/+9Just added that to this little lot doing the rounds.
Palestine: Nakba Digest from LaborAgainstWar
http://windowintopalestine.blogspot.com/2008/05/pa ... - americangoy, on 05/17/2008, -5/+7The Israeli government was NOT a victim of a genocide.
European Jews WERE.
The Israeli government and its apologists is using the Holocaust as a political tool.
And to finish, am not a big fan of suicide... - foopirata, on 05/23/2008, -1/+2And more so, while Israel has admitted that the solution to the problem goes thru the right of self-determination of the Palestinians (by moving away from Gaza and maintaining a dialog with the Palestinian Authority), daily declarations from the Palestinian elite let us know that the problem won't go away until Palestine is established "from the river to the sea" (codewords for from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean, i.e, Israel is no more).
Your "victims", American-non-Jewish-person, seem to have their own plans for how their problems end. - anidal, on 05/18/2008, -5/+5Look up "Plan Dalet". First action of the independent nation of Israel was to institute an ethnic cleansing of Arab civilians. This was before the arab countries attacked in 1948.
- americangoy, on 05/20/2008, -3/+3hmm, you just gave me an idea for a new article...
- inactive, on 05/20/2008, -4/+3@americangoy - Thanks for putting this together, +dugg :)
- inactive, on 05/20/2008, -3/+2Ha ha, got ya thinking. It's about time some people finally figured out the whole mess. Now the cat is out of the bag.
- franklymister, on 05/20/2008, -3/+2How long are people going to keep up the "they started it" game?
The argument about who is at fault in the Israeli / Palestine conflict is older than Mac vs. Windows, and you're not going to solve anything with yet another article trying to paint one side or another as the agressors. For every article one side can produce, so can the other.
Face facts, no one's going to get anywhere by trying to show how evil the 'other side' is. Personally, I'll side with whoever can demonstrate the most goodness and kindness, even in the face of an aggressor. Not that I expect that to happen any time soon. - americangoy, on 05/19/2008, -3/+2"Are you telling me that the armies of Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt were still outnumbered by the Hagganah (Israel's defense force at the time which was really just an underground resistance force)"
YES.
Read the "new historians" from Israel, starting with Benny Morris.
What you are doing is what Steven Colbert calls "believing the gut" instead of actual facts. - EnigmaOX, on 05/18/2008, -4/+3that's the case ! but israel refuse it because of 1000 reasons,, one of them is the water resources in the west bank
- EnigmaOX, on 05/19/2008, -4/+2no it's true , arabs were just farmers who knew nothing about war and they didn't know anything about it, they weren't going to war at all , they went to secure the borders . they were only 35k while israel had already 100k many of them served in WWII.
- inactive, on 05/18/2008, -5/+3That post was totally fact-free. The Arabs were outnumbered almost 2 to 1 in the end. The Zionists never wanted a 'free state for all races and religions' then or at any time. That's what the PLO wanted. You are so full of ***** a 100 foot pole would be too close.
- EnigmaOX, on 05/18/2008, -4/+2actually that's not true ,,, up to 1948 Arabs didn't know what is like to be in a war ,, England asked them to make an army and go to Palestine to secure the borders with Israel after the UN changed Palestine to Israel/Palestine , and stop any riots between Arabs and Jews , they were so weak and the Israeli militants knew that so they kept making clashes in the border to take more land until they took more 25% of Palestine ,,
- inactive, on 05/17/2008, -3/+1Gotcha!
- gauharjk, on 05/19/2008, -5/+3With the power of Internet, the world will be made aware of the racist, apartheid policies of teh nazi israeli government.
- americangoy, on 05/18/2008, -4/+2Well, if that makes you happy - be happy!
- inactive, on 05/18/2008, -7/+4Your story is total and utter *****. First of all Israel had the superior military force from the start, not only in training and experience, but even in numbers:
"Meanwhile, Arab military forces began their invasion of Israel on May 15. Initially these forces consisted of approximately 8,000 to 10,000 Egyptians, 2,000 to 4,000 Iraqis, 4,000 to 5,000 Transjordanians, 3,000 to 4,000 Syrians, 1,000 to 2,000 Lebanese, and smaller numbers of Saudi Arabian and Yemeni troops, about 25,000 in all. Israeli forces composed of the Haganah, such irregular units as the Irgun and the Stern Gang, and women's auxiliaries numbered 35,000 or more. By October 14, Arab forces deployed in the war zones had increased to about 55,000, including not more than 5,000 irregulars of Hajj Amin al Husayni's Palestine Liberation Force. The Israeli military forces had increased to approximately 100,000. Except for the British-trained Arab Legion of Transjordan, Arab units were largely ill-trained and inexperienced. Israeli forces, usually operating with interior lines of communication, included an estimated 20,000 to 25,000 European World War II veterans."
That's from the US Library of Congress http://countrystudies.us/israel/20.htm
So those cowardly Arabs invaded with an inferior military force to perform their genocide? Or did they invade out of desperation to AVOID a genocide and ethnic cleansing? Israel was never meant to be a 'free state for all races and religions on land the Arabs wanted for part of the Ummah'. It was meant to be a 'Jewish state' from the start, despite the fact that the Jews were only about 1/3 of the population and didn't even have a majority in the part that was given to them by the UN. The aggressive racist militarism is all yours. - inactive, on 05/17/2008, -11/+3Well, the best thing that could happen is that the Israeli leadership commits suicide in full session, after apologizing in participating in a genocide, of which they were once victims themselves.
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