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228 Comments
- charlie6969, on 05/17/2009, -6/+83What an amazing article! I wouldn't have thought of legalizing all of that, but it makes a lot of fiscal sense. Plus, it might have a positive effect on the safety of Prostitutes and their customers. ie. regular testing and rules to protect everyone. Not to mention cut down on the incentive for slave trade. Remove some of the stigma so that people would be more apt to seek help for addictions; of any kind. Plus, think about how much more police manpower we can have to catch VIOLENT offenders. It would put a LOT of bad guys out of business.
However, the thought of this actually being taken seriously, well, I don't see it happening. - iopasd, on 05/17/2009, -1/+65"There’s a lot to be said for treating consenting adults like, well, adults."
- anarchist101, on 05/17/2009, -4/+62Great article!
"When was the last time a tobacco kingpin was killed in a deal gone wrong?"
Classic. I may have to use that one sometime.
And as someone who has used all three, I can tell you that far more people would be likely to rob or kill for a cigarette or a pint of booze than for a joint. I have never met a "pot addict" despite knowing plenty of people who smoked it, but I have seen plenty who are addicted to alcohol and cigarettes. Everyone who has ever tried pot/marijuana can tell you that it is way less addicting and dangerous than alcohol or cigarettes. No one has ever, to my knowledge, overdosed and died from marijuana use alone in all recorded history. It is far less toxic than aspirin and even table salt.
I am all for legalizing marijuana and some of the other more harmless things but I don't think we really want to legalize heroin (or some others) though. If it can't be justified to legalize one without the other, maybe require a doctors prescription and make it prohibitively more taxed/expensive than the more harmless ones, because heroin is seriously bad news. It is a killer and this is why it is such a joke that marijuana is classed as having the same kind of risks and dangers.
In the final analysis I just don't believe the government has any moral right or Constitutional authority to say what an adult can do with their own bodies as long as they are harming no one else. Legalizing and having true health risk assessments of usage would also go a long way to restoring public confidence in government. - Finsternis, on 05/17/2009, -2/+35I completely agree with the article, but I have to point out one thing: the reason drug prices are so high is because they're illegal, not because they're so expensive to produce - marijuana is a weed - it grows well just about anywhere. It's the costs of smuggling and general transportation and distribution (plus greed) that make it so expensive. If it were legalized, it wouldn't cost hundreds of dollars an ounce, it would cost a LOT less - and therefore any estimates of tax income based on the current price are bound to be much too high. That isn't a reason not to do it, and we definitely should legalize marijuana and prostitution at the very least, but the income wouldn't be as much as a lot of people calculate.
- KSUdesigner, on 05/17/2009, -2/+35I wish they would get rid of this "czar" *****. These people have little in common with the historical meaning of the word.
- Dulcinea80, on 05/18/2009, -1/+24If done correctly, rates of STD's from prostitutes should go down with legalization due to regular screenings. I'm not going to say all, but many drugs have far less harmful long term effects than tobacco. Also the drugs sold in stores will be safer than street drugs because they won't be cut with anything. I can't imagine drug use skyrocketing after legalization, so we're already paying for any health problems people suffer from taking drugs. I think with legalization, we'd come out ahead.
- staticfire, on 05/18/2009, -2/+24It makes me happy to see articles like this in the NY Times.
Legalize Regulate Educate - Zacktopia, on 05/17/2009, -4/+25Capital idea! It's also necessary to our survival. We have no hope of climbing out of the debt hole we're in without full legalization and taxation of drugs and prostitution.
On the other hand, if we don't take this necessary step, we'll have proved we don't deserve to escape the catastrophe bearing down on us like a bullet train. - whiteguysamurai, on 05/18/2009, -2/+23Treatment won't work, because there is nothing to treat. People like to feel good, and that's what marijuana does; makes people feel good.
When will those puritan die off already? - jitterbits, on 05/18/2009, -1/+19Psychological addiction is not the same as physical addiction. You can be addicted to marijuana in the same way you can be addicted to shopping.
- treytravis, on 05/17/2009, -1/+18Its actually impossible to overdose from weed.
- TheRascalKing, on 05/18/2009, -0/+16"A company is not going to produce something known to cause testicular cancer."
Really?
I'm sure big tobacco companies would NEVER sell us a product that was known to cause any form of cancer... - twiztidsinz, on 05/18/2009, -1/+17@Whatasillyhat:
Its 1,500lbs in 15 minutes
The LD50 value for rats by inhalation of THC is 42 mg/kg of body weight.[16] One estimate of Cannabis's LD50 for humans indicates that about 1500 pounds of marijuana would have to be smoked within 15 minutes.[17] This estimate is supported by studies which indicate that the effective dose of THC is at least 1000 times lower than the estimated lethal dose (a "safety ratio" of 1000:1). This is much higher than alcohol (safety ratio of 10), cocaine (15), or heroin (6).[18] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol# ...
Citation 17 is from New Eng J Med, 1997; 337: 435-439 which can be found here: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/337/6/ ... Full text requires a subscription. - dman24752, on 05/18/2009, -0/+15This article is misleading.
Here's a line further in the article:
The researchers said they COULDN'T PROVE that marijuana use itself increases the risk of psychosis, a category of several disorders with schizophrenia being the most commonly known.
A lot of these articles tend to show that those who develop psychosis smoke pot, but that's a huge difference from saying that those who smoke pot develop psychosis. All obese people eat food, but not all people who eat food end up obese.
That being said people do develop problems with drugs and alcohol and need treatment. I've had friends who would smoke pot multiple times a day and need treatment, but I would say that it's more difficult for them to seek treatment since it's illegal and the illegalization of marijuana is going to add to their stigma when they get out. - eegz, on 05/17/2009, -1/+15You don't get the concept of supply and demand do you...... Or reasonable laws...... Or just the simple idea of creating laws that best cater to human nature...... Twenty five years in jail, is that really reasonable??? What the ***** is wrong with you!?!?!?!? Answer me this with a fully logical argument: What is wrong with letting people grow their own marijuana? I truly not believe that you could come up with a rational argument for why adults should not be allowed to do so, and not just because it's something I "Think" or "Believe", but because my reasoning follows set concepts in economics and human nature, while yours does not.
- KSUdesigner, on 05/18/2009, -4/+16Tobacco is pretty easy to grow too, but I don't see a whole lot of people growing it. Why would I go through the trouble of growing weed if I could just walk down to the store and get a pack of joints? A 5 min. walk sure beats a couple months of growing.
- XtheXlanternX, on 05/18/2009, -1/+12I've never once felt compelled to smoke pot. I have felt compelled to eat sugary foods or salty foods (late night snack!). I have felt compelled to have sex. Smoking pot feels good, so I agree that it can be addictive if you have absolutely ZERO self control, but it is not addictive in the sense that it makes you physically crave it. If someone can't control their impulses, how do they get through the rest of their life?
- yerdaddy, on 05/18/2009, -0/+11Sounds like you could use some sex and a good joint.
- KSUdesigner, on 05/18/2009, -1/+12No, because a meth lab creates a real danger for the public at large. Your marijuana plant isn't going to explode if you grow it wrong.
- jfreeman, on 05/18/2009, -0/+11Really? I thought czars were politically connected, unproductive slobs that wanted to control everything. Sounds like our Washington bureaucrats to me.
- copypastry, on 05/18/2009, -2/+131500lb in 15 minutes? Physiologically impossible, even for Andre the Giant or Michael Phelps.
Even if you could blaze 1500 pounds of weed that fast... THC wouldn't be what killed you... it'd probably be suffocation by particulate matter and carbon monoxide.
TL;DR - marijuana is benign. - mhearne, on 05/18/2009, -0/+11Calling bad habits "addictions" is a misuse of terms.
I realize that the drug warriors do it all the time, but it is still intentional obfuscation on their part.
Besides, the subject of this post is on the legalization of marijuana, and has nothing to do with addictive drugs. - Nevarius, on 05/18/2009, -2/+12OMG BAN TWINKIES !!! my 500 lbs friend is addicted to them. Hell with that logic you can ban everything, yeah lets cover the world in nerf.
- eegz, on 05/18/2009, -0/+10Damn, I just realized that he's likely a troll or a sarcastic genius, but still.....
- jfreeman, on 05/18/2009, -1/+11You support paying for the lives of anyone with a health problem? Sounds like another proponent of universal health care. I'm tired of you Big Government types.
- americanhelot, on 05/18/2009, -1/+11I find it interesting that Kerlikowske thinks its necessary to mention that, “We’re not at war with people in this country.” Because in fact they are, and have been for a long time. Whether through force of law, economically, or through social stigmatization, they've divided us up into small groups for persecution and control. No one group being large enough to politically resist, and all diverse enough not to really care about the others. Whether or not this is a conscious strategy or the organic result of our general disregard for our neighbors freedom, the result is the same. Unless we start to hang together, they will surely hang each of us separately.
- XtheXlanternX, on 05/18/2009, -0/+10Maybe you should get out of the house, mate. There are many people who do indeed sit around all day and smoke pot, never making anything of themselves, but there are also many many successful people who prefer to smoke pot during their spare time. I spend all day working, making a living, and I'd like to be able to come home and smoke a joint and watch TV. I make a good living. I have a good education and I'm working on graduate level work in my spare time. Why is it that I can't come home after a day or work and smoke a joint while I watch TV? I'm just one person, but I know many people in the same situation as my own. It is easy to paint with a broad brush and label everyone a lazy degenerate, but you are only deceiving yourself.
- herojon, on 05/18/2009, -2/+11Best article I've ever read by the NYTimes. A lot of people in this country seem to think that legality and morality should be mutual. Fact is governments can't force people to behave morally, unless they are totalitarian regimes. I honestly believe if we legalize these activities and tax them and monitor them, the abuse will go down.
- NikoKun, on 05/18/2009, -2/+11No, sorry, you are wrong. The "costs" of legalizing Marijuana in heath care, would be NO WHERE NEAR the level of tax income and economic gain we'd get from having the new, legal, industry.
We currently spend BILLIONS each year trying to prohibit Marijuana, unsuccessfully I might add. A HUGE waste!
That money would NOT be wasted, if we legalized it. On top of that, properly taxed, Marijuana would bring in BILLIONS MORE!
Marijuana is safer than alcohol, and does not contribute to hardly any long term health problems at all. No lung cancer, no liver damage... Nothing that would be costly anyway. And frankly, legalization would let us regulate the product, to make it safer, so that even LESS people become unhealthy.
Also.... ANYONE THAT WANTS TO USE MARIJUANA, ALREADY IS! If those "costs" are legitimate, then they MUST ALREADY EXIST! So what increase would there be, that would justify what you claim?
And last time I remembered, we don't have universal health care... So how does the government use money paying Marijuana users health?
You were buried for saying something that was idiotic, ignorant, and just plane false. =P - inactive, on 05/17/2009, -5/+14So you don't believe the government should say what you can do with your bodies.
And yet you think heroin should remain illegal?.
Idiot... - SnowCrashv5, on 05/18/2009, -1/+10I'm for legalizing absolutely EVERYTHING that's currently considered a victimless crime. Prostitution, gambling, marijuana, crack, cocaine, heroin, meth, you name it.
Furthermore, i don't believe in sin taxes either. Not on tobacco, not on alcohol and I wouldn't for these either IF they were ever made legal. Not anything more than say.. a normal sales tax, rather than singling out an industry or a demographic. Who the ***** is the government to make moral choices for me? Or to force moral choices through economics? ***** that. Most of the time that only punishes the poor who are uneducated enough to pay it regardless if it's a 4000% tax. Look what happens whenever a state unveils a $50 lottery ticket, every white trash redneck, jobless black person and mexican line up to get it. The only people the state hurts when they sin tax is the people who can't afford it to begin with and who are too stupid to not buy it simply b/c the price goes up. - Abatrour, on 05/18/2009, -1/+10Why do you think that RE-legalizing drugs would make more people do them? By your logic you must be a chain smoking alcoholic, because all of those are legal.
People get scared when they think about ending prohibition but they don't know that all drugs were legal until the early 1900's.
Prohibition was meant to stop people from obtaining drugs, but all it did was prevent them from obtaining it legally. - inactive, on 05/17/2009, -1/+10Great to at last see this common sense approach being discussed in the open by the main stream.
- yerdaddy, on 05/18/2009, -4/+12One does not purchase marijuana if it is legal. You grow it in a pot. That's why they call it; pot.
- eegz, on 05/17/2009, -2/+10Finally, people are starting to see things from a logical standpoint. You know, I honestly doubted societies ability to think in an intelligent cost/benefit manner but recently I have been delightfully impressed. Lets just hope that the changes being proposed are not some a short lived fad.
- EhBlueDuck, on 05/18/2009, -0/+8Defuser: you are the idiot.
Vincent: if they're consenting then they aren't human slaves, idiot.
jiltjouster: idiot (though i don't really know what you're saying)
stupidest comments to one of the more important points of the article - mhearne, on 05/18/2009, -0/+8When I was in the service, I visited several countries where prostitution was legal. The girls all worked for themselves, there was no middleman, and were required by the state to have regular checkups. All in all, this seemed to be a much better system to me.
- KielKilla, on 05/18/2009, -0/+8Addiction and habit forming are two differen't things. Marijuana addiction is comparable video game addiction.
- HakonD, on 05/18/2009, -0/+8Doctors can prescribe oxymorphone (such as Opana) and certain other opiates that are arguably more powerful than heroin. It's kind of pointless, though, because people seeking to use it recreationally would still have to break the law in most cases.
- DrxLecter, on 05/18/2009, -0/+8In the immortal words of George Carlin "Selling is legal, ***** is legal, why isn't selling ***** legal?" The entire reason there are "slave rings" as you put it is because the trade is illegal and completely unregulated and unsafe. Who the ***** are you to tell anyone what they can not do with their own bodies? Also think about this, it is illegal to pay someone for sex UNLESS you film it and sell it to other people, how the flying ***** does that make any sense at all? This position is perfectly logical, why can't two consenting people enter into a mutually exclusive buisness deal? Just because you don't agree with something or think it is degrading doesn't make it wrong.
- rmxz, on 05/18/2009, -0/+7"lumps in heroin as if they're the same thing."
As they should. Studies show [1] that rats addicted to opiates cure themselves and prefer clean water over morphine when placed in a nice environment (enough food, privacy, room, stimulation, company).
Most "opiates are addictive" studies really just demonstrate that when rats are confined in small lab cages, they self-medicate with whatever antidepressants they can find - including opiates.
People in miserable conditions self-mediate themselves in the same way.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park - mhearne, on 05/18/2009, -0/+7I'm glad someone finally mentioned it, since I brew my own beer and grow my own tobacco. There are no taxes as long as I don't sell it.
- Pschkqitzsough, on 05/18/2009, -1/+8It's not about being dugg down. It's that you are totally wrong.
Virtually no one is going to run out and smoke weed for the first time just because it became legal. If they want to do it it's very VERY readily available and they've already done it. Since there will be virtually no new smokers due to the law change, health costs will stay the same. Not to mention weed is much less bad for you than cigarettes since you don't smoke 20 some joints a day. A few tokes is all you need and it lasts hours.
If you read the article (I really doubt you did since you obviously already Know it should be legal) the author makes a great point about people being more likely to get help if they are not labeled a criminal for their habit (especially for harder drugs that are actually bad for you and addictive like cocaine etc.), which could greatly reduce health care costs.
I've yet to see someone make a good point FOR prohibition of marijuana which is obviously the drug you were referring to. - KielKilla, on 05/18/2009, -0/+7What an insightful arguement. Doesn't provide any factual info and gives the community a big ***** you! What a way to win people over.
- yourmanstan, on 05/18/2009, -1/+8register to view article = no deal
- hostes, on 05/18/2009, -0/+7"if you make narcotics legal, more people would start using them"
Spoken like a truly ignorant shill. - Subduction, on 05/18/2009, -0/+6As a non pot smoker, what's senseless is spending billions of my tax dollars to catch and imprison pot users and traffickers, making them expensive wards of the state, taking them away from their families and ruining their livelihoods, when we could be actually *earning* billions of dollars from a recreational activity with a better safety profile than alcohol, or even skydiving, for that matter.
I'm not using pot, but the state is using my money on this quixotic "war" like they're addicted to it. - twiztidsinz, on 05/18/2009, -0/+6Why would a doctor prescribe heroin?
For the same reason it has been prescribed in the past and its derivatives are still prescribed now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Medical_use
You've obviously never seen this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff ... - charlie6969, on 05/18/2009, -0/+6Ok. Let's do that! Of course, alcohol is a drug too, so we could send the major alchoholics there.
We can have so much fun watching the alcoholics shake, twitch and convulse. Heroin users can scratch themselves bloody. And you can watch pot smokers get GRUMPY for about a week. It will be better than Reality TV!
S/ - mhearne, on 05/18/2009, -0/+6My God, Subduction. I think that the only substance that is more controlled than heroin is gold. I'm fairly positive that's why they call it a "controlled substance", because one way or the other, real heroin is supplied by the government.
On the plus side, statistics tell us that there are only 100,000 heroin addicts in the United States, which is a tiny fraction of 1 per cent of the total population.
Nearly every narcotics addict that I ever knew got that way in the hospital after some traumatic injury. When they got cut off, they had to start buying trash drugs in the street. -
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