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- whiskeymb, on 10/12/2007, -6/+53And so passes a man who could have easily described to even the most incompetant of people what is wrong with our country right now.
Kurt Vonnegut will be missed. His way of writing will be missed. His lack of restraint to point out the indignities of this country will surely be missed. - evilTak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+26How did Christopher Reeve get into that list?
- Morphinity, on 10/12/2007, -6/+28This man was so intelligent and not afraid to speak out. He could grasp a topic and so effectively describe it. He was a great man.
- rebrane, on 10/12/2007, -0/+22"Unlike normal people, they are never filled with doubts, for the simple reason that they cannot care what happens next. Simply can't. Do this! Do that! Mobilize the reserves! Privatize the public schools! Attack Iraq! Cut health care! Tap everybody's telephone! Cut taxes on the rich! Build a trillion-dollar missile shield! ***** habeas corpus and the Sierra Club and In These Times, and kiss my ass!"
Wow, this article is from January 2003, well before "tap everybody's telephone" and "***** habeas corpus" were known to be on the Bush administration's agenda.
He told you so. - Afreyt, on 10/12/2007, -5/+23When the house committee on intelligence came out of their secret meeting and voted for war, I believed that they had good reason to invade that they couldn't tell me. All the talk about Saddam's nuclear program, I figured they had real evidence they couldn't reveal, and I trusted them, thinking that if they lied to me they'ld be held accountable.
I wasn't wrong to support them, I was wrong to think that they'ld be held accountable, and I want to see their heads on a plate right now. If I can't trust them to make good decisions about foreign affairs, they should not be in power. Neither should Bush. Because its ture that they won't always be able to tell us the reasons for everything when they have to protect their ability to gather covert intelligence and could only put things in such vague terms as "the warning may come in the form of a mushroom cloud."
So I don't blame myself, except for being naive enough to trust that they would do their most sacred duty properly. I am much wiser, and much more cynical now. And I still think the American people deserve to see some of them tried for treason and presumably hung along with the Commander in Chief. - Applemacmad, on 10/12/2007, -9/+26So it goes
- TheFlood16, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20I remember the time i got him to write my essay about himself in college...
- nimski, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17Vonnegut archive at 'In These Times' => http://www.inthesetimes.com/archives/vonnegut/
- nomonkey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16"Yes, because being a writer really makes you a qualified political commentator."
Comments like that are so limp.
What does qualify you? Being a C student at a college you shouldn't have been able to attend? Running a baseball team into the ground? Or growing up with a dad who owned a radio station?
Maybe you should stop listening to political commentary from people you deem "qualified" and start reading politcal commentary from people that are actually "smart".
I think what really burns you is how people like Vonnegut or Tim Robbins were undeniably, completely, utterly right. Everything they warned about came true. And everything we were promised by the administration and its shills was 100% false.
Use some critical thinking instead of dismissing a better mind because of his profession. - annonimality, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15The guy fought as an advance scout in the 106 Infantry Division in the Battle of the Bulge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Vonnegut
What the hell have you done for your country? - Afreyt, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15First, I agree, but warring to secure other's liberty is like ***** for virginity. You don't war to secure other people's freedom, you war to defend your own. Believing that you can liberate other people, who may have very different ideas on what liberty is that you don't understand, is exactly how we got into this mess, and mark my words, given the choice, Iraq will become a religious autocracy (or several) in the end.
And we have now very likely killed more Iraqis than Saddam. Who speaks for the liberties of the dead? - laserblazer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Reagan dispatched countless death-squads to Central and South America. He was a real mustache-twirler.
- rebrane, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12More Americans have died in the Iraq war than died in 9/11, to say nothing of the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis who have died due to the war. The Iraq war has cost thousands of times more of your tax dollars than 9/11 did. 9/11 brought the world's sympathy to the United States; now, because of the Iraq war, the world hates America more than it has at any time in history (which surely makes the risk of another 9/11 just that much greater). And while the 9/11 terrorists were a group of criminals from other nations, the perpetrators and planners of the Iraq war are Americans, whose salaries you pay, who claim to act in your name. And finally, 9/11 was over in a morning; the Iraq war has been killing for five years and will continue killing, for how long we cannot know.
The Iraq was is much, much worse than 9/11. - mgainor, on 10/12/2007, -9/+19I love how some people think it took a visionary to see that Bush was full of ***** before the war. Everyone who wasn't a sleeping, blind Bush supporter would have had negative things to say about him at the time of this interview, halfway through his unaccomplished first term. The only difference between now and then is that of the half of the country that was dumb enough to still support him 4 years ago, half of them have been forced to admit their mistake by a historical cacophony of scandal, incompetence, and arrogance from his administration. You didn't have to be a Vonnegut to not be in this category.
- br0wn0ut, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Because the Iraq War and George Bush are the worst things to happen to the world in recent memory ... and it's a natural, human tendency to cluster the good and the bad together. Also, Vonnegut was a famous opponent of ANY war, particularly the stupid ones.
- Ganchula, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12No-one would say that 9/11 wasn't terrible, but it's interesting to note that the Iraq war has been responsible for more deaths of US civilians, and many more deaths overall. It's debatable whether 9/11 or Iraq war is worse for the country though, 9/11 certainly seems to have enabled a lot of neo-con BS.
- swrostmore, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Yes, Vonnegut wrote fiction. Slaughterhouse 5 was a fictional account of his very real experiences as a POW during the firebombing of Dresden. And he was right about more than "the aftermath of the invasion." He, and many, many others, have been against this war before it began, on the basis of its questionable justifications which have since then been PROVEN false. We were right all along, and the hawks were wrong from the start, and yet we are the ones wearing "tin foil hats?"
- nomonkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"Possibly could Bush's war been a failure because he had to cater to left wing ideals on how wars should be fought as opposed to his own?"
Oh.... dear God.
Single dumbest thing I have ever read.
The least cooperative president in a hundred years and you want to blame the left wing ideals??? He did absolutely everything he wanted!
Where do you people come from? - MrVictor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10OK. There are two possibilities.
1) You're a troll
2) You're an illiterate fool.
Which one is it? - evilTak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7afreyt: There's the problem righ there. You shouldn't trust. If someone is asking you to trust him, he's hiding something.
mgainor: Not all of America deserves the leadership that part of America elects. - Afreyt, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11Who else am I supposed to trust, when they are the ones that have unfettered access to the CIA and the NSA and I don't. I am working in the absence of total information, and have to hedge my bets as best I can. When you go to vote, do you just look at the levers and say "nope, I have no idea"
The difficulty is accountability. - warmonger48, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12Ninja337 is *****. He still is a rightest goose-stepper. Glad when he dies.
- nomonkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"If he'd shot Saddam and left it would have been perfect."
Best laugh I've had all day. really glad you've learned something from all this. Man, I hope you're not old enough to vote.
"Move on to something significant."
Good grief. Like what, Anna Nicole's baby?
All those insignificant dead soldiers...
"Do you really need other people to think for you?"
Judging by your post you should seriously consider it. - Afreyt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Yes, because frankly I'm too busy to examine all the evidence for every single damn thing that winds up in my in-box, and honestly, I can't affect policy decisions anyway except in the very broadest terms at the ballot box. I am expert in what I do, in what I don't do, I try to evaluate who is the smartest person and defer to them. Vonnegut, as a reporter on human fallibility is/was an EXPERT in politics and war.
- hmmmok, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Hey, Shakespeare for everyone!"
- KazamaSmokers, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11You trusted career politicians. What the F is wrong with you?
- Afreyt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Well, then there is no one to vote for and I might as well throw my hands in the air and move to pago-pago, because they ALL say "trust me". Anybody who says 'don't trust me' will get eaten alive in the primaries.
You will NEVER have all the information you need to make a policy decision, thats why they are there and thats why its a democratic republic. I can't, even if I had access to it, look at what our spies and satellites and policy wonks are all saying and keep my day job. Thats why I elect people. I didn't vote for Bush, but when opposition democrats were coming out of security meetings and voting with Republicans to give Bush the authority to go to war, I trusted that they had my interests at heart, and they did not. Now I want to see each and every one of them held to task. If Pelosi has been at that meeting, and still had voted against it, maybe I would have felt differently, but she wasn't on that committee.
They looked scared, and I assumed they knew Saddam was building nukes. - bakagaigin, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9On the Daily show some time within the past year or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwPbMt5Qx7I - mikeneilson, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Call me an idiot, digg me down, whatever, but 9/11 isn't in that list of "worst things that have happened in recent memory," really?
Wow. That's kind of a scary thought. - swrostmore, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I believe in God Ninja. To not do so is just asking for a shuriken in the neck.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5It's from a movie.
- tituspullo71, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5i tell ya i get no respect!
- nullcodes, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Militancy in the name of islam needs to be brought to a swift end. But in doing so, it's also always wrong to punish people without trials, to torture them, and selfishly harm innocent people. Just because you're less connected to the victims, exchanging one form of violence for another is not right .. two wrongs don't make a right.
How is it right to not care about certain innocent lives for the sake of saving others?
A war to secure liberty and freedom cannot truly be won without fair trials and respect & caring for all human beings. And even if you win, you'll have to explain your methods to the Creator. - jackhole, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6If an Iraqi imam said of American troops, "I regard them as very brave people," would anybody here ***** a brick?
I'd like to read the article where he said this however. - br0wn0ut, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6theflood16 is making a pretty awesome reference to "Back to School," if I am not mistaken. If anyone has a clip of Vonnegut's' cameo in that movie, now would be an AWESOME time to put it on Youtube.
FWIW, I've got my own Vonnegut tribute up -- I'm new here, so apologies if this is comment spam:
http://andiamnotlyingforreal.blogspot.com/2007/04/so-it-goes.html - thespiff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I don't know about you mgainor, but I was against the war from day 1. I've always thought it was absurd. I'm a big fan of good political discourse, so I talked about this alot. I spoke with very very few people who agreed with me. Many people ridiculed me. In the lead-up time to the Iraq war NEARLY EVERYONE believed that the President was making a good decision.
The political climate has changed so much since then that some people find it easy to forget what it was like 4 years ago. You sit hear speaking in hindsight like it was all so obvious back then that this would happen. If it was so obvious to everyone...we wouldn't have allowed the war to happen in the first place.
Afreyt is absolutely right. We elect a president in the hopes that he will make smart, responsible decisions when spending our tax dollars and our soldier's lives. We have to trust him to a certain extent under the assumption that we can't be lied to without him receiving some serious punishment for it. Our current administration is incompetent, but they are not being (and will not be) held accountable for their actions. The problem isn't that people trust politicians who are untrustworthy. The problem is that politicians get away with lying to us. - wendelgee2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Slaughter-House Five "uses certain phrases repetitively, such as "so it goes"—which, used whenever death or dying is mentioned (be it that of a man, an animal, or the bubbles in champagne), serves to downplay mortality, making it routine and even humorous" (-wikipiddy)
- DaveF, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"The only proof he needed for the existence of God was music."
- d00ley, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Technically, the Reagan wars were run by Bush Sr., Cheney, and Rumsfeld.
- immolation, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@ evilTak
Being paralyzed makes you have a "brilliant mind". Didn't you know? - rhesuspieces00, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3too bad you have to die before anyone will listen to what you have to say.
- funkspiel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4He helped me get through a depression.
- ChumpChief, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3They still have to give you a reason for war.
It's like punching some kid and telling the authorities "I have a really good reason, but I can't tell you what it is." - bpvancouver, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3to afreyt: Well F&cking said... digg to you.
- Caruthers, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Mr. Melon, your wife was just showing us her Klimt.
- spearce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Read "Mother Night"....his greatest work imo.
- Vitamin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Kurt Vonnegut didn't write "The Eden Express".
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Vonnegut#Personal_life_and_death - nullcodes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@afreyt
You are wrong that the people of Iraq will choose an islamic government if given a fair choice. Very few islamic majority countries that have democracy have ever elected an islamic party into power.
Examples (google and verify):
Bangladesh, Indonesia, Pakistan-when-they-were-a-democracy, etc. (ok, I have already accounted for the majority of the world's muslims). By the way .. those 3 countries have previously elected women into power ..and those women didnt always wear even headdress until around their election time (I dont think Indonesia's ever has worn one). It's fairly recent that the islamic parties are able to gain even 10% of the vote .. and that's because of propaganda.
The Islamic election victories in Iran and in the Palestinian territories is a rare event (and Iran's election was hardly fair by any standard).
Nobody in the world wants a religious government dictating behavioral crap to them. - Tsujigiri, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4If I'm not mistaken the Balkans were a NATO effort to stop potential genocide. What were Reagan's interests in Central America in the 80ies and how were they funded?
Hmmm... Questions. - psbpv3o, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Yeah it's bravery to take your own life. That takes a lot of guts. Ignorant bravery is incredibly destructive.
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