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- GhostyBoy, on 02/29/2008, -39/+239What have we become?
- theNazz, on 02/29/2008, -15/+165Saddam was hung for allowing his troops to act like that. Why is George Bush immune?
- Jibberwalk, on 02/29/2008, -18/+165I dunno if you've seen these, but it's more photos from Abu Ghraib. It should be noted, however... that while these are newly released photos, they are from the same batch that first opened our eyes to the atrocities at Abu Ghraib. There is not any new (known) issues of abuse, for those who may have been confused.
http://i32.tinypic.com/o0vsbc.jpg http://i32.tinypic.com/x51ts3.jpg http://i31.tinypic.com/bfp92c.jpg http://i28.tinypic.com/2lsw38x.jpg http://i27.tinypic.com/5ba2b6.jpg http://i28.tinypic.com/noeuyx.jpg http://i30.tinypic.com/30lyxyq.jpg http://i25.tinypic.com/21nnl21.jpg http://i29.tinypic.com/2rrs9j9.jpg
Absolutely atrocious. How can we make claim of being the the shining beacon of human rights, the "good guy," when we treat these people worse than animals. When I saw the image of the dogs being sicked on the man... it looked like something right out of the Third Riech's Nazi Germany. Disgusting.
I'm not a Christian in the least (Humanist I be), but I fully believe in forgiveness and love. Imagine if we had practiced that after 9/11? If we had said "You can kill as many Americans as you want, we're not going to stoop to your level. We're above it. You can try to beat us down as much as you want... but we're above it. You can decapitate. You can bomb. You can rape. We're above it. You're not going to drag us down to your level. We're focused on a goal so much greater than your petty qualms."
If we hadn't reacted the way we did, these fundamentalists would have remained just what they were, nothing more than an annoying bee sting.
Imagine if we used our wealth and military strength to help those who needed (without any shadowy intent of our own)? Imagine if we just used force to prevent atrocity, like that in Rwanda, Darfur, Chad, Congo, etcetera. What if we used our power to really stand up for the greater good, and for the prospects of the future?
Man, what an idealistic fantasy world I find myself day-dreaming of. And... ***** this *****. I wish I was living in a future time... not this neo-medieval age ***** we're rocking right now. Sorry about the rant and long post. - seth123q, on 02/29/2008, -24/+104it not only George Bush who isnt calling it torture. its his whole stupid organization. im not saying republicans but the bush administration is doing some horrible things. if we didnt invade iraq this never would have happened.
- Akaji, on 02/29/2008, -7/+52Wow, at first I thought you were being sarcastic, then I looked at your comment history.
You are what is wrong with America. - holygram, on 02/29/2008, -5/+45"it is the only way to ensure they are telling the truth."
False confessions ftl - Joneth, on 02/29/2008, -6/+44Yeah, back in the good old days when we executed Japanese for waterboarding our soldiers.
- johnmatias, on 02/29/2008, -3/+37I sat here for 15 minutes trying to think of something to say to you sub1. I thought of saying something thoughtful, I thought of saying something hateful, and I thought of saying nothing at all. But I think Akaji sums it up best: You are what is wrong with America.
You are the hatred and ignorance that has become bodily personified into a speaking entity that must continually rot our minds with thoughts of self diluted shield bashing and flag waving. You seek to create a mindless mass who does what it's told on the whim of it's master and cares nothing of the needs of the sick and dying. YOU are the plague. YOU are the hunger that starves the world. YOU are the would-be-wool over our eyes. And I think too many people are wise to your ways, too many would rather declare you false and narrow-minded. And that is why you will always be dugg down.
That and your STUPID.
- Jibberwalk, on 02/29/2008, -4/+37Muslim fundamentalists wouldn't have made America their stomping ground. They would have remained a comparativley powerless minority (which they are. Not all Muslims are fundamentalists. Most are moderate and modern). It should be noted, that while Arab states tend to appease terrorists, they do not support them. Very much like the Palestinian issue in the 60s and 70s. Jordan wanted the complete return of Israel to Palestine. They funded the PLO and gave them lodging, but the second the PLO wanted the East Bank to be independent and the 800,000 refugees in Jordan to be free... Hussayn crushed them with open war. They fled to Lebanon and started a much more radical style.
Black September was founded, a radical Palestinian terror group. The Fatah became an even more centralized guerilla force within the PLO. Overreaction by the dominant power (Jordan) against a relativley minor group (PLO) lead to a radicalised and violent force... as witnessed in 1982 in Lebanon.
The terrorist attacks are just bee stings. In the long range of things, these terrorist groups can never achieve the wealth and power of a state. They will never represent a true threat to the United States. Or wouldn't have, had we not retaliated, bringing hundreds of thousands into the fundamentalist camp (like when Israel bombed southern Lebanon recently... it rallied the people to Hezbollah, when prior to they saw Hezbollah as an imposing force.
We stood up against the USSR for decades. They (at times) had wealth, power, and the ability to end life as we knew it. And here we are today, fearing an increasingly marginilized group that could at most attack key cities with improvised weapons.
Quit fearmonger and brush up on your knowledge. You reason from emotion and assumption... not logic. I reccomend anything by Malcom Kerr and "The Contempory Middle East" - Bologner, on 02/29/2008, -13/+44B-B-B-But the terrorists are out there! It's true! They hate us for our freedoms! Never mind the fact that there are countries closer to the Middle East than we are and have more freedoms than we do! Never mind the fact that we have bombed Iraq weekly since the 90's! Never mind the fact that we supplied Iraq with all the chemical weapons they used against Iran in the 80's! It's definitely our freedoms!
- inactive, on 02/29/2008, -6/+36And your are a heartless prick.
- Terr01, on 02/29/2008, -5/+35Your "what if" scenarios are implausible and laughable, and elevate international terrorist groups to the status of COBRA vs GI-Joe.
Your conflation of "terrorists" with "people who we think might be terrorists because sketchy tribal warlords traded them to us in return for enough bounty money to feed an entire village for a year" is disengenous.
Your faith in waterboarding's ability to work on a suspect even if they *do* have useful knowlege is misplaced.
Statistical Fact: More people die very year in America from choking on non-food solid objects than have died in the last decade due to terrorism, even including the ginormous statistical fluke that was 9/11.
Pre-buttal Fact: Remember that Iraq was unrelated to 9/11 and Al Queda--in fact the only places Al Queda had any purchase were the same zones of the country which we helped keep free from Saddam's rule. - error792, on 02/29/2008, -4/+31Because George Bush said it was necessary to win "the war on terror", and complacent Americans believed him.
"To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, 'Our country, right or wrong,' and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation?"
-Mark Twain - jlhoben, on 02/29/2008, -5/+31If we are thinking about our children then we have more to fear from a government that does this and seeks to take away our rights than any terrorist.
- makkaveli19, on 02/29/2008, -5/+30it's sickening to see some of these comments like "if we don't torture them, they could be the ones flying another plane into a building." this is actually invoking another attack.
i can't even begin to tell you how wrong this is, i'm just gonna enjoy my cookie instead. - inactive, on 02/29/2008, -4/+27Just a correction to begin with - these "terrorists" don't "hate us for our freedoms", they hate us for our behavior which, as it happens, has been atrocious on quite a few occasions. We aren't acting like a free people who respect freedom for all, we're acting like a bunch of bullies - "nyah nyah nyah, you're just jealous, blah, blah, blah." Please. Not coincidentally, we hate them for their behavior as well. Around and around it goes, where the madness stops, who knows.
At any rate, as I mentioned to someone just this evening, one’s focus ought not be on being a good “american” or "good patriot", a good “christian” or good “muslim” or good "jew" or what have you. Those are and always will be divisive identities - one man’s hero will be another man’s terrorist, always. No, far better to focus on being a good human being. Maybe, some behaviors can be “justified” as good for the country or good for the culture, "good for Texans" versus "good for Californians" or New Yorkers or Seattleites, however, is it good for peace? Is it good for empathy's sake, for the sake of compassion, for respect among human beings? Those are the important questions. As we see frequently, what is “good for America” is simply bad behavior. The same assessment goes for any divisive identity one wishes to name. If your focus is on some prideful identity rather than on the issue of respect - regardless of vengeful emotions and rationalization - disrespect toward other human beings is likely to be your next step. But, of course, as Richard Dawkins and others increasingly point out, to be a “good human being” is quite likely too divisive as well. There are many other species whose survival is threatened because human beings are thinking only of themselves without respect for other life.
Perhaps, rather than living as a “good _____”, we ought to live with empathy, compassion and respect as the standard in our thoughts, behavior and speech when interacting with every other form of life beyond our own persons.
Stop looking for and protecting membership. It’s the surest way of becoming an enemy and of making them. - americangoy, on 02/29/2008, -17/+38The 5th Reich....... or close to it than I would like to think.
- Lokishot, on 02/29/2008, -11/+32Sorry to disappoint, but we always been like that.
Only now, we finally see it. - inactive, on 02/29/2008, -9/+30FYI mccain, mr 'we dont torture' voted to allow more torture
hes a liar, and a fraud..
personally ive never tortured anyone, i think its shameful the things our government does NOT ON OUR BEHALF... somehow we have to make our government accountable again or our country really is lost - FlagrantDrugUse, on 02/29/2008, -2/+22Pretty sure it was Duran Duran.
- u8myfoood, on 02/29/2008, -7/+26neither would have the $53 trillion of debt....
- Ghiren, on 02/29/2008, -3/+22Damn right! "Liberal" is not an insult, it's just as valid of a viewpoint as being "Conservative".
- lerker, on 02/29/2008, -2/+17Your question made me wonder, JimmySpaza, so I went to Amnesty International's website ( http://www.amnesty.org ). Right there on the front page is an image with a bright yellow label: "REACH OUT FOR KENYA - Call on Kenya's leaders to respect and protect human rights". There's one for you right there. But maybe it's a fluke. Let's have a look at the library then. Here are the five "Highlighted Research" articles:
- Women act against repression and intimidation in Iran - 28 February 2008
- Nigeria’s prison system fails its people - 26 February 2008
- Freedom curtailed in the Russian Federation - 26 February 2008
- Cambodia burns homes of the poor - 11 February 2008
- Police ill-treatment plagues Bosnia and Herzegovina - 6 February 2008
Next time, do a bit of research before making such ridiculous claims. - cheeseknight, on 02/29/2008, -4/+18The burden of proof is supposed to be on the state. Innocent until proven guilty. There is NO evidence the majority of the prisoners are terrorists, that is why the feds have to torture/detain them. They use these tactics to get a confession, whether or not a crime has been committed.
- SlappyMc, on 02/29/2008, -1/+15Don't apologize.. that was excellent
- jabela, on 02/29/2008, -6/+20That's unfair... Amnesty produces a large quantity of reports on those countries and certainly gives them the condemnation they deserve...
- etrigan30, on 02/29/2008, -3/+17We all know they are not "real" *****... there are not meant to be "real" they are meant to illustrate a point.
- Dumbledorito, on 02/29/2008, -3/+17I guess gospelofthomas would know how torture produces verifiable confessions.
I mean, all those witches that got dunked and claimed to be agents of Satan that could make crops fail and cows give spoiled milk just HAD to be telling the truth, right? - davidwasman, on 02/29/2008, -4/+17great message, but horrible text contrast. It's a bit hard to read.
- jmoh, on 02/29/2008, -3/+16George, is that you? It's past your bedtime!
- arcangelgabriel, on 02/29/2008, -1/+13I lost several brother Marines to the Hanoi Hilton. I'm betting you've never been tortured. I'm F A R from a bleeding heart liberal [ Bleeding heart referring to Christ, a liberal as I recall, feed the poor, heal the sick etc.], I've defended this country on more occasions then I care to recall.
I don't give a flaming rat's ass for these people, but I ***** REFUSE to sink to torture on the excuse for 'security'. There is no security, anyone telling you different is selling you snake oil or listening to talk radio. - n0t0kayipr0mis3, on 02/29/2008, -6/+18Each generation just repeats the mistakes of the previous one, we never learn, never will...
- davidkimchee, on 02/29/2008, -16/+28Its TORTURE to my eyes when you put white font on black and WHITE pictures.
- panacean, on 02/29/2008, -1/+13How crass. There's a difference between fighting for something and physically torturing people. I'm proud of the troops fighting the good fight, but when idiots begin to do these kinds of things to other human beings, it's a cause for alarm. Why the hell is that lady smiling next to that body? Do you honestly condone of such behavior? If you knew anything about the American government, you would know that the founding fathers would have opposed this sort of conduct.
And how the hell are you a "fan" of Ron Paul when you're so against peace? - VSLOATHE, on 02/29/2008, -3/+15Is that what they've told you?
And of course, any expert in interrogation will tell you that confessions and information gained through prolonged torture cannot be trusted. A man will say anything to stop the pain. - JedicodeWarrior, on 02/29/2008, -1/+12It's ironic that we do all this to prevent terrorism and preserve our freedoms and we've seen our own civil liberties stripped away in an era that eclipses the McCarthy era. Bush is using the Constitution to wipe his ass, one of the documents this country is based on; and we are the one's called un-American. Look around, folks. The terrorists have won and are in the Whitehouse.
- cheeseknight, on 02/29/2008, -2/+13I believed in the freedoms excuse. After the 9/11 attacks, I bled red, white, and blue. I wanted to see every terrorist hunted down. I supported the Iraq war, after all we were bringing democracy to an oppressed people. I wanted to enlist, to "fight them there before they can hurt us here". There was nothing more cowardly than questioning our leaders in a time of war. And then I found Digg.
I read about the atrocities the government was doing in my name. I started asking questions, and when I learned the answers, I completely realigned my perspective. I no longer buy into the neocon *****, but I know from experience how people can be sucked in. We have 2/3 on our side now though. Just 100 million left to convert to rationalism - Terr01, on 02/29/2008, -4/+15Correction: "As reported earlier", Michael Hayden's testimony doesn't say how much it was done to them. Also, it does not preclude other waterboarding conducted by the DIA, FBI, NSA, or general military, etc.
"They gave up information that later checked out."
Interesting if true... Source? (And of course, this has to be info they didn't already without the waterboarding.)
Fundmamentally you're saying we should be okay with a practice that was (with minor variations) also used by the Spanish Inquisition, Pol Pot, and against prisoners by the Japanese in WWII?
Sure, it's not pulling their intestines out with a hot scythe and feeding them to demons spawned in the very pits of hell itself, but just because it's not as evil doesn't make it good or acceptable. - GhostyBoy, on 02/29/2008, -8/+19The families of the victims have been calling for a new investigation of 9/11 for years now. Respecting their wishes seems to me a more honorable course of action than invading any country that fits into the military agenda that existed long before 9/11.
A million dead muslims. I don't call that justice. I call it genocide. - dinostabOMG, on 02/29/2008, -7/+18Yeah... well if Americans weren't clever enough to elect him twice, it wouldn't have happened either.
- CannedMango, on 02/29/2008, -3/+14At what point did being conservative equate to "supporting war unconditionally"?
It seems to me that many right wingers actually enjoy hearing about people being killed. - goat2, on 02/29/2008, -2/+12is starvation torture?
your body needs food to live. your body needs sleep to live. deprivation of either is torture. - bowens44, on 02/29/2008, -4/+14You're right, decency, human rights , our Constitution and freedom are Liberal causes.
Hate, ignorance, bigotry, torture, fear and stupidity are conservative causes. - Nevarius, on 02/29/2008, -2/+12Well of course these picture are not real. They were made to make a point. IF you actually believe the authors of said posters are trying to dupe the population into thinking these are really real, then you are truly delusional or grasping for any straw to promote your sad attempt at demonizing someone that holds a differing opinion to yours.
- eir574, on 02/29/2008, -3/+13Torture is the only way to ensure that someone is telling the truth? Are we living in ancient Rome? It's not as if information gained through torture doesn't have to be verified elsewhere. In fact, gospelofthomas says in the post above mine that the reason torture does not produce inaccurate information is that the prisoners know that whatever they say is going to be verified.
- hangtown2004, on 02/29/2008, -3/+13It Torture and its bad but the men in the pictures should not be made as heroes either
- Daz3, on 02/29/2008, -6/+16Listen to yourself warmongering terrorist. You've fallen so far you do not even bother to use logical arguments anymore; just ad hominem attacks like a child.
- Phrag, on 02/29/2008, -1/+11If he is against it, then why did he vote against a bill that would have banned it?
- Jibberwalk, on 02/29/2008, -6/+15Who was the 4th?
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