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Israel vs. South Africa: Time for a Boycott?
electronicintifada.net — Israel at 60 is a more evolved and brutal form of apartheid than South Africa did, according to anti-apartheid leaders, like Archbishop Desmond Tutu and the country's current government minister Ronnie Kasrils, who is a Jew. Israel therefore deserves a boycott, divestment and sanctions until it abides by international law and respects human rights
911ArtStudent- 242 diggs
- digg it
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -30/+32To 911ArtStudent and neocognitism, do you have intel CPU's in your computers?
- MarkusGarvey, on 05/12/2008, -14/+14what ...are they gonna come and pull the CPU out of your computer....
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -10/+16I don't know if you understood the question.
- MarkusGarvey, on 05/12/2008, -9/+14maybe not...i assume your are referring to Intel CPU's made in Israel being boycotted...boycotting..Israel...isn't this what this is about?...
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+13Yea. I just didn't understand you comment before.
- hadees, on 05/12/2008, -4/+8I think he thinks the only way to tell what CPU you have is to open the computer. It is nice to know MarkusGarvey isn't only ignorant of things in the middle east, you can add computers to that large list.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -5/+11Cellphones, a whole lot of software, bunch of agricultural technology the third world uses, a lot of medical technology and so on,
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -6/+2Let's all discuss Intel CPUs instead of the evil inherent in the Axis of Apartheid.
/Thread-jack - hadees, on 05/13/2008, -0/+4It isn't a thread jack it is to show you that you are all hypocrites. If you want to boycott Israel do it just know you aren't going to be able to use a bunch of electronics.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -10/+16I don't know if you understood the question.
- 911ArtStudent, on 05/12/2008, -21/+16My CPU's are engineered by Desi's and made in China. Woo-hoo! They don't even come with a kosher label.
- Tangaroa, on 05/12/2008, -14/+19"They don't even come with a kosher label." -- Thanks for making it clear that your opposition to Israel is because you hate the Jews and not because of anything Israel does (or doesn't do, as most of these Digg stories turn out when the facts come in).
- LongShlong, on 05/12/2008, -8/+9Tangaroa, does that mean you hate Israel for what they are doing then (apart from the useless fact that they are Jewish)?
- Tangaroa, on 05/12/2008, -8/+18Israel is not doing what they are accused of. There is no genocide. There is no apartheid. There is no state terrorism. There is no Jew control of the media. There is no Jew control of the US government; the Bush administration is more closely aligned with Saudi Arabia and has taken a less friendly stance to Israel than past administrations. There is no occupation of Palestine; if anybody bothers to read a history book, Palestine is an archaic name for Israel (one of several such names including Canaan and the Levant) and the British Mandate of Palestine was created as a reserved area for a future Jewish State. There are no refugee camps as the refugees who fled the 1948 war have been resettled in bona fide cities. There are no illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank or Gaza because these territories were given to Israel in the treaties of 1978 and 1994 which also fulfilled Israel's obligations to UN Resolution 242 regarding these territories. The Palestinians are not the sole legitimate people of Palestine; all of the people who lived on the land are whether they be Jew, Arab, or another race. The list of inconvenient truths goes on and on.
Israel is a multicultural liberal democracy founded upon the peaceful philosophy of Zionism which teaches that all races are equal and the Jews have rights too. As a secular humanist liberal, anybody who stands against that is evil in my view. It is not a "useless fact" to note that the anti-Israel propagandists who lie about everything in order to smear Israel (recall the first paragraph) will often turn out to have something against the Jews. Here the original poster - and the submitter of this article which is hosted on a web site founded to promote anti-semitic terrorists - made a sarcastic comment about Jewish food practices and being glad to avoid Jewish influence in a context completely unrelated to them. It is quite telling. - orientis, on 05/12/2008, -9/+2.
- Tangaroa, on 05/12/2008, -8/+18Israel is not doing what they are accused of. There is no genocide. There is no apartheid. There is no state terrorism. There is no Jew control of the media. There is no Jew control of the US government; the Bush administration is more closely aligned with Saudi Arabia and has taken a less friendly stance to Israel than past administrations. There is no occupation of Palestine; if anybody bothers to read a history book, Palestine is an archaic name for Israel (one of several such names including Canaan and the Levant) and the British Mandate of Palestine was created as a reserved area for a future Jewish State. There are no refugee camps as the refugees who fled the 1948 war have been resettled in bona fide cities. There are no illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank or Gaza because these territories were given to Israel in the treaties of 1978 and 1994 which also fulfilled Israel's obligations to UN Resolution 242 regarding these territories. The Palestinians are not the sole legitimate people of Palestine; all of the people who lived on the land are whether they be Jew, Arab, or another race. The list of inconvenient truths goes on and on.
- orientis, on 05/12/2008, -9/+5On the looping spectrum of insanity, holocaust deniers sit side-by-side with Israeli responsibility deniers. The world is turning against Israel, rightly so. Your claims of ignorance or worse, unjustified superior intelligence, change nothing. You can keep beating your Israel agitprop drum but the truth will out.
- LongShlong, on 05/12/2008, -8/+9Tangaroa, does that mean you hate Israel for what they are doing then (apart from the useless fact that they are Jewish)?
- Tangaroa, on 05/12/2008, -14/+19"They don't even come with a kosher label." -- Thanks for making it clear that your opposition to Israel is because you hate the Jews and not because of anything Israel does (or doesn't do, as most of these Digg stories turn out when the facts come in).
- sacr3dc0w, on 05/12/2008, -10/+21For those that don't know, a lot of research for Intel's current/future lineup has came out of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_microarchi ...- FadieZ, on 05/12/2008, -10/+12Why should one good thing that came out of Israel make up for several bad ones?
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -12/+11First of all, its a not one good thing. A whole lot of high tech comes out of Israel. Second, Israel isn't apartheid, flossdaily clearly states why in other comments on this thread.
- flogistan, on 05/12/2008, -10/+9It didn't come out of israel. Intel opened plants in Israel. They could have given those jobs to americans. It's just one more welfare program we supply Israel at the expense of Americans. OK, if these zionists argue that the chosen race are the only people smart enough to do the research? We have more here. It's a free ride and those Intel plants should be here, just like the six billion a year we give them until they make real steps toward curbing the apartheid.
- 911ArtStudent, on 05/12/2008, -6/+4Not to mention Intel also has a plant in Costa Rica.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -4/+16"if these zionists argue that the chosen race are the only people smart enough to do the research?"
Nobody here says we are the chosen race. You are just antisemitic.- flogistan, on 05/12/2008, -8/+3If they are religious they say it, and I'm sure a few of them are. Are you sure 100% of the zionists on digg are perfectly secular? It they are not, then they certainly do believe that. I personally think many secular zionists believe it as well. If not, why do they tread on other races with such desregard and impunity?
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -3/+964% of Israeli Jews are secular. And as a secular israeli Jew, we don't believe we are the chosen race. And the rest of your comment is ignorant of the situation.
- flogistan, on 05/12/2008, -8/+4Yeah, I'm ignorant of the situation because I read about it every day in papers from around the world and read books about it from both sides of the situation, and follow what's going on in israel continually because it's something I'm interested in. Got it. There's the antisemitic rhetorical tool of broken record morons with no logical defense of their terrorist state. The secular zionists are far worse in their racism and entitllement. You think I'm ignorant of it? Why would I be? They run my government. Come up with some new material. Just like zionists, there are people on here who are against them that work to keep one another informed.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -0/+9Every religion in the world claims to be the chosen religion.
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -8/+4Every religion in the world claims to be the chosen religion, but only one will call you anti-stemetic for disagreeing.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -2/+7"The secular zionists are far worse in their racism and entitllement." How is that so. It's the religious Israelis that are settling in the West Bank. How are the secular Zionists worse then?
"to keep one another informed." there is informed and there is disinformed
"Every religion in the world claims to be the chosen religion." except judaism ----- we don't proselytize - flogistan, on 05/12/2008, -6/+2How bout they're the ones who lobby for wars in Iraq, and iran, and syria, so a few million more people can die? A lobby can't do that? Well, it can, but all the neocons controlling the executive branch certainly can. Who isn't informed? These are simple glaring examples of secular zionist criminals. What they're doing is far worse than settling somewhere. They're killing hundreds of thousands of people in illegal wars.
- hadees, on 05/12/2008, -4/+9It isn't the plants it is the fact that some of Intel's most profitable chips were designed in Israel by Israelis. It is wildly acknowledged that the Israeli branch saved the company because everyone else was working on chips that were hitting design walls. The Israeli team came up with a revolutionary design that worked and ending up being a huge sales success.
- flogistan, on 05/12/2008, -6/+2Thank you. Israelis are smarter, and nobody else could have done it. If it wasn't for the... and here it comes, I'm loving this, it's too funny for me to imagine... Intel, an international chip monopoly whose only competitors rely on the information intel is willing to give them... would have failed if they hadn't been "saved" by the chosen race (even better than american jews) in israel. "They saved the company." That's too good. Thank you. They would just be gone now if it wasn't for israel. Limitless delusions.
- hadees, on 05/13/2008, -1/+4No Intel probably wouldn't be gone but their profits would have continued to plunge. I guess someone else in Intel could have come out with a profitable chip that worked but the fact is they didn't. You seem to have a problem with Intel acknowledging their best design team is in Israel.
From Bloomberg: Intel's Israelis Make Chip to Rescue Company From Profit Plunge
``These are the best microprocessors we've ever designed, the best microprocessors we've ever built,'' Otellini told the audience. ``This is not just incremental change; it's a revolutionary leap.''
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&si ...
- flogistan, on 05/13/2008, -5/+1At least you slipped and said "wildly acknowledged." Freud would be ashamed of you.
- FadieZ, on 05/12/2008, -10/+12Why should one good thing that came out of Israel make up for several bad ones?
- DrHoliday, on 05/12/2008, -17/+20Right. Let's keep the Apartheid going because our PCs came with Intel chips. This fact makes what they're doing right.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+13I'm just bringing one point to the discussion. We keep doing business with china and we know how bad they are.
And to the whole apartheid thing, you keep forgetting the fact that Israeli arabs serve in all levels of government and have the right to vote.- chicofaraby, on 05/12/2008, -12/+9Yeah, that doesn't really make up for the dead bodies.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+9Apparently it does. Face it, we all buy from china, yet they are some of the most oppressed nations in the world.
- wpi97, on 05/13/2008, -0/+5Dead bodies? You mean like this one? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7396987.stm
- chicofaraby, on 05/12/2008, -12/+9Yeah, that doesn't really make up for the dead bodies.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+13I'm just bringing one point to the discussion. We keep doing business with china and we know how bad they are.
- jer2eydevil88, on 05/12/2008, -8/+8Israel has a very strong military presense and it exists in an area where everyone hates them... If that doesn't spell a recipe for disaster and hatred then I don't know what does.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -5/+10"it exists in an area where everyone hates them.... recipe for disaster and hatred then I don't know what does." ----------- that doesn't make sense. How does living in a place where people hate make people hate you. The arab nations just couldn't stomach an idea where they wouldn't be rulers over the Jews in the Middle East. Same with the Kurds.
- wpi97, on 05/13/2008, -0/+5So, if Israel did not have a very strong military presence, and the Jews did get pushed into the sea in 1948, or in 1967, or in 1973 there would have been no disaster?
It appears that you are saying that if you exist in an area, where everyone hates you, than you should just let them destroy you, to avoid the disaster. Jews have been doing just that for about 2000 years. Enough is enough.
- thecoolestguy, on 05/12/2008, -12/+6Because if you create advanced technologies, it's OK to do repress millions of people. Enter Nazi Germany.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -2/+9I'm just pointing out that we all buy from china and other countries that aren't democracies. Anyway Israel is a liberal democracy.
- Zecchetti, on 05/12/2008, -7/+7AMD is better anyway
- IKORKYI, on 05/12/2008, -4/+6one jew says something negative about israel, therefore its true? ***** PLEASE
look at the middle east, then look at the US. Whom do you think God is punishing?
- MarkusGarvey, on 05/12/2008, -14/+14what ...are they gonna come and pull the CPU out of your computer....
- LoneRanger85, on 05/12/2008, -50/+48Since when is launching missiles at Israeli homes and schools a human right?
- MarkusGarvey, on 05/12/2008, -28/+47the same time killing innocent Palestinian women and children became a human right...
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -31/+39The difference between when Israel kills Palestinian civilians and when Hamas kills civilians is that Israeli tries to limit civilians casualties more than any conflict I can recall right now. Hamas tries to kill civilians on purpose.
- anidal, on 05/12/2008, -20/+30Too bad Israel sucks at what it does. Hamas tries to kill civilians and only manages a half-dozen in its rocket campaign. Israel, which apparently tries to save civilians has killed 4000+. Even if Israel's terrorist figures are correct, 2 civilians are killed for every suspected terrorist.
If we decry Hamas as evil because of what they do, why not Israel, which has killed thousands more innocents. - yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -18/+30Too bad Palestinian terrorists are hiding among civilians.
- caferrell, on 05/12/2008, -24/+19Too bad that you have no compassion for the people that you trod underfoot, from whom you stole their country and their fredom and their pride.
Too bad that you have no place in your heart for the poor Palestinian children that have no future, thanks to you. - yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -6/+11If we had no compassion, we wouldn't be sending soldiers in by foot all these times. We wouldn't be treating hundreds of Palestinians in Israeli hospitals. We wouldn't be supplying them with energy, food and medicines. The Palestinians are the ones that have no compassion - they're very clear about that too: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3145920, ...
Now you blame Israel for stealing Palestinian "pride" - and I thought pride is a purely subjective concept. IMO, if the Palestinians have no "pride" it can only be by their own fault. - EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -1/+3Too bad Settler terrorists are hiding behind their children, using them as human shields for Holy Idol Israel.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -0/+1To emporertitus - do you have proof?
- caferrell, on 05/12/2008, -24/+19Too bad that you have no compassion for the people that you trod underfoot, from whom you stole their country and their fredom and their pride.
- bohemianowl, on 05/12/2008, -19/+32too bad zionists hide behind decent jewish folk.
- Conspiracy20, on 05/12/2008, -10/+12They have the same problem we do in exposing corruption.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -18/+32#1) The Israeli army has the best record in the world for averting civilian casualties. People misunderstand this because the volume of attacks against terrorists is so high.
#2) Any Jews who aren't Zionists are completely ignorant about their own history. And anyone who is anti-Zionist is anti Jew, whether they intend to be or not.
#3) Palestinian terrorist do use civilians as human shield. Why do you insist on digging down basic facts?- caferrell, on 05/12/2008, -17/+15Let me address only #2 becuase the first is too ludicrous to refute and the third is not provable either way. So in response to #2 -
You have made the connection. Anyone who does not support Israel and the goal of recreating Biblical Israel is an anti-semite!
Well done flossdaily, anyone who does not feel that Israel is justified in stealing and occupying the land of the Palestinians is by definition a racist! - flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -12/+19You assume to much.
When I say people are ignorant about their history, I don't mean biblical history. I mean the well documented history of oppression that Jews have experienced in nearly every nation they have ever lived in. I'm talking about the Spanish Inquisition, I'm talking about the holocaust.
Jews aren't entitled to Israel because the bible tells them so:
Jews are entitled to a homeland, because like all people, they are entitled to protect themselves against extermination and oppression. The holocaust showed Jews, and the rest of the world, that if Jews didn't have their OWN country, no one in the world would stand up for them.
I'll remind you that during the holocaust, almost every country that the jews tried to flee to slammed their doors. Even the United States LOWERED the number of immigrants that they would accept during the holocaust.
They are entitled to the land of Israel specifically because;
a) they'd been buying up land there for decades
b) the British had control of the land and gave it to Israel
c) the united nations recognized Israel's right to the land - 1randomguyO8, on 05/12/2008, -14/+9How bout the land they stole? And the homes and farms they have bulldozed?
http://dovaryeh.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/settle ... - flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -9/+16Land they stole? You mean the land that they conquered in a defensive maneuver when all their surrounding neighbors moved their armies right up to the Israeli border, preparing to attack for the umpteenth time? The land that they traded back to Egypt for peace? The land that they've been trying to trade to the Palestinians for peace for decades? That stolen land?
Homes and farms they've bulldozed? Do you mean the homes that terrorists were building bombs in? The ones the were launching rockets from? And farms? Farms they bulldozed small parts of so they could build a security fence, the same way ANY government seizes property through eminent domain for nation use? Those farms? - 1randomguyO8, on 05/12/2008, -11/+7Homes belonging to civilivans, not terrorist.
Yes, farms, they destroy civilian's farms and steal water and land from their neighbours.
The wall was more of a grab then a security measure, destroying lively hoods of many Palestinian families. Israel deserves everything they get, it's just karma for all the land grabbing, murder and immoral acts you have committed, you reap what you sowe. - flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -5/+13#1) As soon as you allow terrorists to use your home, it's a terrorist base. Just like its a crime to harbor a fugitive here- the same principal applies to harboring terrorists there.
#2) Its a security FENCE not a wall. 98% of it is a chain-link fence. the remaining 2% that is concrete was built in an area where terrorists were using sniper rifles to kill Israeli civilians. The FENCE cut down on violence VERY significantly- it was entirely about security. The whole idea of a land grab is ridiculous, because Israel already occupies the WHOLE West Bank. How can they grab land that they already control?
#3) The truth comes out. You think Israel "deserves" terrorism. That's where I think the double-standard about Israel is at its worst. The entire western world pretty much agrees that there is NO EXCUSE for terrorism. The idea that America deserved 9/11 is just ridiculous... but... hey, if it happens to JEWS, no big deal, right? - Kizilbash, on 05/12/2008, -9/+4#1) Good grief, you still buy that crap? Even the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem has recorded way more instances where Israeli soldiers have used Palestinians as human shields than Palestinians using human shields. And as Amnesty International pointed out after the war on Lebanon in 2006 the Israeli army bases in the north are all close to Palestinian Israeli towns.
#2) Jewish history is mostly myths. Zionism is inherently racist, as much as Apartheid in South Africa was. Zionists collaborated with the Nazis and are now using the Holocaust as a weapon of mass distraction to show why they have the right to do whatever the ***** they damn well please and everyone who doesn't like it is an antisemite.
#3) Because it is not a basic fact, you dumbass. See #1) Israel has at least as much of a history of using human shields as the Palestinians. - yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -4/+8#1) Completely false.
#2) Antisemitic rants.
#3) See #1.
- caferrell, on 05/12/2008, -17/+15Let me address only #2 becuase the first is too ludicrous to refute and the third is not provable either way. So in response to #2 -
- mikehosek, on 05/12/2008, -10/+2Wow, you have officially earned a trophy for being the worlds most ignorant person.
Your comment is so pathetic and fallacious. - KingWilson, on 05/12/2008, -8/+2your lips are moving but your not saying anything
- Kizilbash, on 05/12/2008, -11/+4*****. Israel uses weapons like cluster bombs and flechette grenades that are obviously designed to kill as many people as necessary. And they succeed in that very well too. Israel has killed more children proportionately than the Palestinians have and way more in real numbers.
- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -2/+6I suppose regular HE rounds are meant for distributing candy...
- ArenaRon, on 05/12/2008, -1/+6The difference is simpler than that. A Jew cannot walk into an Arab neighborhood ANYWHERE in the middle east - including Israel - dressed as Jew with a skullcap on and leave without the likelyhood of being maimed or killed. While an Arab can dress in full Arab traditional dress ANYWHERE in Israel and not fear physical injury to themselves. That is the difference between an Arab state and Jewish state, plain and simple - Vitriolic hate.
- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -1/+2Now now, there are quite a few Arab neighborhoods in Israel where Jews are quite safe, Haifa in particular is a good example of coexistence. They hold a "festival of festivals" every December - recommended for anyone in Israel at that time.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -0/+2Haifa is my favorite city in Israel.
- anidal, on 05/12/2008, -20/+30Too bad Israel sucks at what it does. Hamas tries to kill civilians and only manages a half-dozen in its rocket campaign. Israel, which apparently tries to save civilians has killed 4000+. Even if Israel's terrorist figures are correct, 2 civilians are killed for every suspected terrorist.
- LoneRanger85, on 05/12/2008, -27/+29As long as cowardly Palestinians hide behind women's skirts, innocent women and children will be killed. And Jew-haters will have more ammunition for their Nazi-like bigotry.
- anidal, on 05/12/2008, -19/+19Is that justification for murder?
By the way, your bias is showing. You called the opposing side Palestinians instead of Hamas/Terrorist/Millitants... Not only does this give your argument little logical sense, as the people they are hiding behind are Palestinians themselves, but it also shows how your bigoted mind would like to see them as innocents when it suits Israel and the culprits when it suits them as well.- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -4/+8Collateral damage during a necessary military operation IS justification for murder. The best a country can strive for is to minimize those collateral deaths. Which is precisely what Israel tries to do (and usually quite successfully)
- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -18/+17You're the one justifying murder, nidal, by supporting Palestinian terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. Israel is practicing self-defense.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -3/+9The truth hurts. No one wants to hear it.
- anidal, on 05/12/2008, -14/+30I'm against terrorist attacks on civilians period, weather they're perpetrated by Palestinians or Israel. Of course you don't see it like that. Any criticism of Israeli tactics to you would seem like antisemitism.
Just because its labelled as self-defense doesn't mean thats whats hapenning. The Israeli Plan Dalet was labelled self defense, but it involved ethnic cleansing of the Arabs.
Problem is, any criticism of Israel's brand of 'self-defense' is considered by its apologists as against Israel's right to exist and the whole antisemitism rut begins again. Time and time again, inquiries into IDF genocides have been blocked by the same tired accusation: "Anti-semite!"- Beveridge89, on 05/12/2008, -15/+13So when does Israel 'attack' when it is not to stop its own citizens being targetted? If your sole proof of genocide is a 60 year old plan, then you really don't have much.
Israels self-defence could be done in a way that would reduce civilian casualties. The problem is it increases IDF casualties significantly. In any case, the tactics used are less indiscriminate than the tactics used in the NATO bombing campaigns of Serbia and Afghanistan, yet it recieves 10 times the criticism. When it chooses not to use those tactics and sacrifices soldiers lives in the process (like in Jenin) it still recieves the same criticism.
So if you want to complain about the accusation of anti-semitism, fine; I'm not going to call you that. But if you want to come up with a different reason why Israel is continually singled out, I'd like to hear it. - yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -15/+12Why don't you ever criticize Palestinian terrorism? What do you do in your community (I assume you're Arab) to stop the violence? Seems like all you do is lay the blame on the other side, even when it's clear that Hamas is needlessly and purposefully leading Palestinians into more violence and more strife. It's time Muslims took a good look at what they can do to stop the violence, rather than further "the cause".
There's a small Crusader fort in the valley where I grew up. As the valley's swamps were dried up, Arabs from Samaria moved into that fort permanently (they would use it as seasonal shelter beforehand). They would regularly snipe at the Jewish settlement that was a few hundred meters below the fort. These Arabs weren't a regular military, or even what you would call militants - they were just regular Arabs with guns. This scene replayed itself all over Israel in various scales. The convoys that led supplies to the besieged Jewish quarter of Jerusalem were slain by Arab villagers - again, not "militants" nor regular armies. Just plain old Jew-hating Arabs.
It's very easy to present Plan Dalet as a master-plan to rid Israel of Arabs, but when you read the actual text of it, in the context of those days of pre-independence civil war (when it was written up), it's very clear that it was a plan to protect the Jewish communities that were besieged and attacked by their civilian neighbors. Countless men lost their lives in these convoys, and several communities were destroyed. In every case, the children and non-fighting women were evacuated when their safety was in jeopardy - the exact opposite can be said for Palestinian terrorists.
As I said previously, India and Pakistan were ethnically cleansed during their formation. Looks like it worked quite well, with the exception of Kashmir. Their differences are mostly played out by professional militaries and civilians on both sides enjoy relative safety. As long as Palestinian terrorist cowards choose to place civilians in harm's way, civilians will be hurt. - anidal, on 05/12/2008, -14/+8Israel is a major world power. With the most advanced military in the middle east. It is also the most advanced economy in the middle east. Why am I so critical of it you ask? Because despite all of this, it resorts to apartheid and murder. Think about it, an army with the most advanced weaponry in the world, fighting against a group of people who aim their rockets like 10yr old girl scouts.
Do I hate the terrorist organisations who claim to be representing Palestinians. Oh god, yes. But to see a people to pay for the crimes of their fundamentalists is by far more painful. Yes the terrorists need to be rooted out, but does this mean the Palestinian people deserve to live without food, medical care or power? Do they deserve to be walled in, unable to reach the homes they were kicked out of?
60 years of war in Israel's history, yet they continue to pursue the same tactics as always. One must ask, do they want this perpetual war? Why not have they tried alternative tactics?
Now you see why I don't criticize terrorist organisations. Because criticizing them will accomplish nothing. They'll still continue to kill like they've been indoctrinated to do. As an Israeli critic, I dont want to see it destroyed, I want to see it take positive steps towards helping the Palestinians. Perhaps to help pull a people out of the same situation that they were in 70 years ago. I hope, that unlike the terrorists, Israel, being a democracy, has the ability to listen to reason. I don't see the current situation as a Muslim-Jew issue. Islam and Judaism are two of the most compatible religions (even more than Christianity). I see it as a Israeli/Palestinian issue.
And to answer your question yonoz, no I'm not Arab. And I do not live in an Arab community. The community I live in consists of people from various cultures and backgrounds, and I hope that my presence helps build bridges of understanding. - monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -14/+15Israel is a military and economic super power in the Middle East but you don't understand the kind of enemy Israel is facing. How is a state supposed to protect its citizens with out hunting down those terrorists who hide among civilians.
- Beveridge89, on 05/12/2008, -8/+11Just because they won't listen doesn't mean you shouldn't criticise. In any case i was more referring to why Israels actions aregiven more attention than any other nations actions, even when they are less extreme and occuring at the same time.
You assume Israeli tactics have been consistent over the last 60 years. They have not. Before they made the mistake of legitimising Arafat and the PLO at Oslo, and suffered the consequences of that, many of the measures now used weren't neccessary. The walls, for instance; you can call them an instrument of apartheid, but the reality is they have reduced the number of Israeli deaths to terrorism dramatically. So long as they are neccessary to reduce Israeli deaths, the walls will remain.
The problem with deciding not to criticise the actions of Israels attackers is very clear; as monsieurginger has already pointed out, you cannot look at events in a vacuum. The circumstances surrounding them also have to be considered. For instance, around 70 Palestinians died last year after being denied treatment in Israel. This looks bad for Israel, but when you consider that same system has been used several times by paelstinian terrorists to attack Israel, its reluctance to treat every palestinian who applies is quite understandable.
If you want to know what will drag the Palestinians out of their dire circumstances, it most certainly won't be Israel. Israel helped to try and build a strong PA in the past; that lead to the second intifada. Palestinians have both had terrorists pushed on by Israel and the West and elected themselves as their 'legitimate' leaders, and until that is changed to candidates interest in more than revenge agsinst the jews and their own power, nothing will change, no matter what Israel does. - anidal, on 05/12/2008, -9/+9Israeli stance towards peace has remained the same, whatever way you look at it. Plan Delet which was carried out on Day 1 is in the same in spirit with the rest of all its incursions. That of preemptive defense. Moving in, removing an Arab population that may threaten the Jewish populace and control the land. After which settlers move in which are under threat from more distant Arab towns. Rinse, repeat. Can you honestly say that this isn't hapenning? All being justified by the same lines you're uterring.
When you do the same thing that everyone knows hasn't worked for 60 years, how is the world not going to notice? Israel currently occupies lands miles and miles beyond its legitimate borders. It has its own civilians (settlers) living beyond its borders _directly_ in harms way. How do you expect the world not to notice?
Time and again we have reports of foul play on the part of Israel from aid agencies working in the area. Anybody who's lived in Palestine describes the horrors. Reports of human shields, ethnic cleansing, imprisonment, abuse. Are they all lying? I mean one report could be wrong, but hundreds?
Israel is in direct breach of several international treaties and UN resolutions. Is this all some giant plot against Israel? How can you still victimize Israel after all this?
You're right, lets not look at these events in a vacuum. Lets put them all together... It doesn't take an Israeli-critic to see something is seriously wrong here. It does however take an apologist to overlook them all and blame them on 'circumstances'. - yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -10/+13You seem to be ignoring:
1) 60+ years of Arab attempts to annihilate Israel,
2) Arab leaders using the same rhetoric as they do now - before Israel captured the territories,
3) Israel HAS tried, and is still trying, an alternative path: see the 1956 return of the Sinai to Egypt, the Camp David Accords, the peace treaty with Jordan, the Oslo Accords, the pull-out from Lebanon, the unilateral disengagement - yet Arab leaders are still calling for the annihilation of Israel, and the more Israel gives, the more popular they become. Israel has given more than 3 times its current size of territories in pursuit of peace.
You accept the terrorists' actions as axiomatic - accept Israel's justified responses to prevent harm to its civilians. Show me another country that would show so much restraint while its civilians receive dozens of mortars and rockets daily.
If you cannot criticize the Palestinian terrorists, you're not "building bridges of understanding" - you're "furthering the cause" like the rest of your Umma. - anidal, on 05/12/2008, -7/+111) Does not justify encroachment of Palestinian land by Israel.
2&3) As I mentioned to you before, the Arab countries have everything to gain from continued violence. Why would they strive for peace. Israel needs to actively make peace with the Palestinians and deal with the rest of the Arabs later. The calls for annihilation are baseless as you are well aware due to Israels extensive nuclear arsenal.
Repeated shelling and incursions have done little to curb rocket attacks. Show me another country that would persist in following the same course of action that it knows doesn't work. It's madness to maintain the status quo.
Still waiting for the answer to the invade-occupy-settle policy of Israel being used to justify occupation. Also answers to why you ignore hundreds of human rights violation reports on the part of Israel. Why you ignore the international treaty violations and paint Israel in such a positive light. Why you ignore the reports of international espionage being done by Israel. Agreed some of them may be wrong... but all of them?
Israel is no angel state. Accept it. If not, then you're just furthering the cause of the rest of your fellow Zionists/Evangelicals who further the cause of Israel without regard of the human cost. - monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -6/+9"the Arab countries have everything to gain from continued violence. Why would they strive for peace. Israel needs to actively make peace with the Palestinians and deal with the rest of the Arabs later."
It takes two to make peace.
And yes, Israel is no angel state. But you don't realize in what a sticky situation it is. A situation no other country faces. - yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -7/+101) DOES justify occupation of captured territories until a peace treaty is reached.
2&3) As I proved before, Israel has tried to reach peace with the Palestinians several times now. It's the Palestinians who elect leaders that refuse any sort of true peace and repeatedly declare they will stop at nothing less than the annihilation of Israel. Israel has reached peace with Egypt and Jordan. The calls for annihilation are anything but baseless WHEN YOU SAY ISRAEL SHOULD SOMEHOW MAKE PEACE WITH THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE THEM.
It's madness to maintain the status-quo, and seeing as peace can't be reached - the alternative seems to be reoccupation of the Gaza Strip and removal of the Hamas regime there - unless they can make a GENUINE ceasefire offer - we'll see about that when the Egyptian Defense Minister who is mediating between Israel and Hamas will meet with Olmert tomorrow in Jerusalem.
You're "forgetting" Israel has removed hundreds of Jewish families from the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip and West Bank - proof that Israel's policy is that of land for peace, including the removal of settlements. That is all irrelevant as the original argument remains - YOU SUPPORT TERRORIST ATTACKS ON CIVILIANS, SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MUSLIM.
I have no problem "accepting" Israel is no angel state - no such state exists, but compared to the Palestinians and Arab states of the ME - it is as close as it gets. If you want to see Palestinians living peacefully, you'd better start acting to stop Palestinian terrorism. - 1randomguyO8, on 05/12/2008, -8/+3"Israel is a military and economic super power in the Middle East but you don't understand "
Well the IDF got their ass whopped by Hezbollah two years ago. Even by their own admissions. Plus how strong would Israel be if US tax payers didn't give Israel billions of Dollars in "aid" a year? - monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -4/+8First of all, your comment has nothing to do with this article.
Second, Hezbollah and their host Lebanon suffered a lot more than the IDF and Israel. - Beveridge89, on 05/12/2008, -2/+7"the Arab countries have everything to gain from continued violence. Why would they strive for peace. Israel needs to actively make peace with the Palestinians and deal with the rest of the Arabs later."
You highlight the problem directly. How can you criticise Israel for not making peace when you acknowledge that the leaders of Palestine have nothing to gain from peace? Even after Oslo, Arafat said the peace was only temporary until he could gain the upper hand. Trying to make peace just now can only see israel lead down the same garden path- Hamas claiming to want peace in diplomatic circles while at the same time using the legitimacy and aid it is given to support the same terrorist infrastructure, while maintaining the same propaganda of hate against Israel that is crucial to their continued rule. The West, and even Israel for the most part, has continued to look for a strong dictator to keep terrorists at bay that man will never be found, since it is inevitable he will turn on Israel to maintain his own rule. Palestinians need to make the change and break form terror from within, since i doubt it will come from the outside world.
- Beveridge89, on 05/12/2008, -15/+13So when does Israel 'attack' when it is not to stop its own citizens being targetted? If your sole proof of genocide is a 60 year old plan, then you really don't have much.
- 911ArtStudent, on 05/12/2008, -10/+13Speaking of hiding behind young girls skirts, check out this interview with an 11 year girl used as a human shield by IDF soldiers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXq57XK2L0A
Those are some pretty repugnant people you are defending LoneRanger - mikehosek, on 05/12/2008, -8/+4How does it feel to be full blown racist? Anyone who gives excuses for the murder of women and children is truly not even close to being human. You are a disgrace to humanity.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -4/+10Like I've said before, innocents always die in war. Israel sorrows every time children die in Gaza yet the Palestinians party in the streets every time an Israel child dies.
- anidal, on 05/12/2008, -19/+19Is that justification for murder?
- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -17/+13"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."
Israeli citizens have a right to secure their lives and security. This is done by the IDF which attacks terrorists that fire at Israeli civilians. Palestinians can likewise defend themselves, but they have no right to attack Israeli civilians with intent.- mickstephenson, on 05/12/2008, -1/+7The point is Britain had to deal with terrorists on there own soil in Northern Ireland, and even though the troops conducted themselves with much more restraint than Israel when mistakes were made there was harsh criticism, which you seem to think Israel should not have to contend with. The soft approach in the end worked in Northern Ireland and peace is almost assured, and in my view this is mainly because economic troubles have ended over there and everyone is satisfied with day to day life. If Israel tried hard to ensure that Palestinians can get jobs, trade and ensure economic prosperity for them they will just get on with their lives. Violence just creates anger which leads to more belief in the cause.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -2/+2The irish didn't want to wipe out Britain and didn't launch rocket attacks from places where civilians live. When Israel opened up its borders to let Palestinians work in Israel, it paid with the blood of youngsters in clubs, pizzarias and buses.
- mickstephenson, on 05/12/2008, -2/+2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles read this, plenty of civilians were targetted, I am pretty sure that at the height of the troubles the terrorists did actually want to wipe out Britain, but that wasn't there main goal. The only reason you think differently of the Palestinians is that you are so xenophobic that you assume they are are some kind of subhuman animals where every last one of them isn't capable of rational thought.
Views will never change overnight but if you stop reacting with force to killings and instead allow Police investigation then perhaps the Palestinians will begin to grow tired of the terrorists. - monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -1/+4I really doubt the IRA wanted to wipe out every Brit and take over all of the UK.
- mickstephenson, on 05/13/2008, -1/+1They had no intention of doing so, but when hatred runs deep why do you assume that if the opportunity was there to take over the UK that they wouldn't take it?
It seems to me like you in some way sympathise with the IRA's cause and have no sympathy for the Palestinians, their struggle is for basically an Identical cause, also why don't you actually try to argue with what I am saying rather than just nitpick.
- mickstephenson, on 05/12/2008, -1/+7The point is Britain had to deal with terrorists on there own soil in Northern Ireland, and even though the troops conducted themselves with much more restraint than Israel when mistakes were made there was harsh criticism, which you seem to think Israel should not have to contend with. The soft approach in the end worked in Northern Ireland and peace is almost assured, and in my view this is mainly because economic troubles have ended over there and everyone is satisfied with day to day life. If Israel tried hard to ensure that Palestinians can get jobs, trade and ensure economic prosperity for them they will just get on with their lives. Violence just creates anger which leads to more belief in the cause.
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -1/+4I respect you memory markus
but not your intent.
To blame Israel for killing innocent Palestinian women and children without acknowledging the role of groups like Hamas, and PIJ in intentionally launching military attacks from strategic locations nestled in residential areas, behind hospitals and school, and rounding up groups of "civilians" to create human shields for launch sites and militant enclaves is willfully amoral and dreadfully biased in favor of those who make use of terrorist strategies, which would never be tolerated in any western countries... any more than they would by you and yours were your neighbor to take up arms against you in the same way.
double standards need apply in the ongoing justification of aggression towards Israel, and only towards Israel.
There is moral ground to be found here, but you have completely missed it. - IKORKYI, on 05/12/2008, -1/+2Maybe Palestinian militants shouldn't try to operate in schools, orphanages, civilian places, etc.
And where is Palestine again? I can't find it anywhere on a map...
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -31/+39The difference between when Israel kills Palestinian civilians and when Hamas kills civilians is that Israeli tries to limit civilians casualties more than any conflict I can recall right now. Hamas tries to kill civilians on purpose.
- blackjack75, on 05/12/2008, -0/+3Great... two completely idiotic statements fighthing each other..
- BeefBaron, on 05/12/2008, -2/+2Obviously LoneRanger85 would have no qualms with some foreign country plonking themselves down on his country, gleefully remarking "This is ours now, let us begin constructing settlements immediately!"
- MarkusGarvey, on 05/12/2008, -28/+47the same time killing innocent Palestinian women and children became a human right...
- debunkthelies, on 05/12/2008, -30/+56President Carter was and is right about Israel.
- Conspiracy20, on 05/12/2008, -14/+15The sad part is had Carter been younger, he NEVER would have come out with it. Although commendable he protected himself. Think of what this could have been while he was president!
- Zecchetti, on 05/12/2008, -5/+2a new kennedy style assassination
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -22/+14President Carter is negotiating with Hamas, a terrorist organization. There is nothing more fundamentally un-American, or more counter to the interest of basic human rights on the global scale.
- sherrife, on 05/12/2008, -14/+15I'm sure the British described the American independence movement as something similar to "terrorism" back in the 1700's.
Judge the cause first, tactics second.- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -5/+121) Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. Because in the battle of American Independence, all the civilians were Americans, then the British would not have been using an accurate definition of 'terrorist' if they applied it to the Americans.
2) The deliberate targeting of innocent civilians deserves condemnation, regardless of the cause.- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -1/+1"...when the international body sent its envoy, Count Bernadette, to Palestine to settle the issues, he was murdered by Jewish terrorists in broad daylight in Jerusalem. "
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15042002/1504 ...
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -1/+1"...when the international body sent its envoy, Count Bernadette, to Palestine to settle the issues, he was murdered by Jewish terrorists in broad daylight in Jerusalem. "
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -5/+121) Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. Because in the battle of American Independence, all the civilians were Americans, then the British would not have been using an accurate definition of 'terrorist' if they applied it to the Americans.
- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -10/+8unfortunately the IDF is also a terrorist organization by your standards.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+13unfortunately you are ignorant to the situation.
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -2/+2http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15042002/1504 ...
"...when the international body sent its envoy, Count Bernadette, to Palestine to settle the issues, he was murdered by Jewish terrorists in broad daylight in Jerusalem. " - flossdaily, on 05/13/2008, -0/+1Yeah, as your article points out, there were Jewish terrorist groups 60 YEARS AGO. But those groups did not represent the government of Israel. Israel, as a nation strives to avoid civilian deaths in all its military operations.
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -2/+2http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15042002/1504 ...
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+13unfortunately you are ignorant to the situation.
- GhostyBoy, on 05/12/2008, -7/+9What about torture dickwad? Is that more "American" than negotiating somehow? How about pre-emptive invasions based on lies? How about illegal wire-tapping and surveillance? How about profiteering off of the death of American soldiers? Is that ***** all "more American" than negotiation?
Seriously, stop waving that flag around like a moron, sit up in your chair and start paying attention.- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -4/+6Negotiating with enemy nations is one thing. Negotiating with terrorists is another.
- Tangaroa, on 05/12/2008, -2/+6And surrendering to them is a third, and joining them is a fourth. Jimmy Carter has spent the past few weeks since he laid a wreath on Arafat's grave actively repeating Hamas propaganda. If all he had done was to try to talk Hamas into peace then it would be admirable, but Carter jumped the shark and is now acting as an agent for their holy war. I don't know if it's his age or if he just took in too much propaganda, but it's sad to see.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -4/+6Negotiating with enemy nations is one thing. Negotiating with terrorists is another.
- sherrife, on 05/12/2008, -14/+15I'm sure the British described the American independence movement as something similar to "terrorism" back in the 1700's.
- quomen, on 05/12/2008, -1/+4As much as you hate it, protecting Israel and siding by them is essential to American interests. To disown them would harm you as an American. Would you do that? This is a completely hypothetical and unrealistic situation but if boycotting Israel meant our gas prices to be doubled, would you do it? Would you support a charity tax, and increase of your income taxes that would all go to helping an impoverished country. As much as we want to make the world perfect, in the end you have to look out for your own interests.
- lazaruswws, on 05/12/2008, -4/+4President Carter Is the worst President this Country has ever had how could he be right about anything.
- Conspiracy20, on 05/12/2008, -14/+15The sad part is had Carter been younger, he NEVER would have come out with it. Although commendable he protected himself. Think of what this could have been while he was president!
- roosevans, on 05/12/2008, -16/+26When the Palestinians love themselves more than they hate Israel nothing Israel could do would contain them. When Israel fears injustice more than they do Hamas the Palestinians themselves would destroy Hamas.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -11/+16I sure hope you are right about the Palestinians destroying Hamas part. I wonder what kind of government the Palestinians seek in their future Palestinian state because I don't see any democratic Arab country in ME right now. Lebanon maybe but I don't know much about Lebanon politics.
- anidal, on 05/12/2008, -8/+20There was one, Iran... but the US took care of that in the 50s. Lebanon, the second quasi-democracy in the region has been invaded and occupied twice by Israel, the first of which created Hezbollah and the second which solidified their hold on Lebanon.
No democracy has been allowed to survive in the Middle East. Will Israel tolerate one in Palestine?- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -13/+10I suppose Syria and Iran have no responsibility for Lebanon's poor state? But they're Muslims, so it must be alright then.
- anidal, on 05/12/2008, -6/+17Iran and Syria have been supporting Hezbollah for several years, but it took an Israeli invasion and subsequent retreat at their hands to solidify the organisation in hearts and minds of the Lebenese population.
Hell, Hezbollah is popular in the Sunni parts of the middle east as well due to the invasion. Never has a terrorist organization been looked at so favourably all over the middle east. Good job Israel! (Sarcasm)- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -10/+7Do you hold the Arab and Muslim nations equally responsible for Israeli public opinion?
- anidal, on 05/12/2008, -10/+3Screw the arab countries. They have everything to gain from violence in the middle east. If you want peace. Make it. Don't look and copy the actions of those who gain from your problems.
Israel has nukes. It no longer needs to worry about external aggressors. But it does need to find a solution to the Palestinian problem. - yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -6/+8Seems like you're calling for unilateralism there. We saw how well that worked in the Gaza Strip.
Nukes don't help the people who have suffered, are still suffering, and are yet to suffer Palestinian terrorism.
Israel cannot solve the Palestinian problem on its own - the Palestinian must assume responsibility for themselves.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+8The 2006 summer war in lebanon was not an occupation of lebanon. Whether Iran had a democracy or not is not the point. It's been decades since the revolution and all they got is a theocracy.
- anidal, on 05/12/2008, -9/+11Oh yes, the 2006 summer was an invasion. The occupation of southern Lebanon has been going on since the 80s. And all Israel had to do to delegitimize Hezbollah was to move out of the Shebaa farms, a tiny district of Lebanon. Seems almost like Israel wanted to keep them around.
Fact remains, 100% of all middle eastern democracies/quasi-democracies/pseudo-democracies have been invaded/occupied by Israel or its allies. Does it look like Israel likes democracies here?
Israel itself isn't even a democracy. Despite its trophy arabs in the cabinet, the largely jewish population would never accept an arab president. And this is on religious grounds (the land was given to them by God, and hence only a Jew may rule it). Palestinians living in occupied territories are not allowed to vote, are not provided services available to other residents of Israel. However, Jewish settlers in occupied territories are afforded full citizens' rights, despite living outside Israel's legitimate borders. The underlying ideology in Israel's 'democracy': Jews > Arabs.- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -7/+8The only one legitimizing Hizbullah is you - Israel returned to the UN border - the Sheba farms are not Lebanese territory, and the UN has affirmed the border and the Sheba farms' status in particular.
Fact remains, every country Israel invaded attacked it and its leaders declared their intentions to annihilate as they mobilized their armies on its borders.
Israel is very much a democracy. We've yet to see women heads of state in most of the western democracies, let alone minorities (Israel had a woman head of state as early as the early 70's). Most Israelis are secular. Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories are allowed to vote - for the Palestinian Authority (even Arab Israelis in East Jerusalem) - if they voted in Israeli elections, that would mean annexation. - fiskehaps, on 05/12/2008, -5/+9take it the other way around
when would the Arabs accepted a Jewish president? - anidal, on 05/12/2008, -7/+5"take it the other way around
when would the Arabs accepted a Jewish president?"
They wouldn't. But they won't call themselves a democracy at the same time.
Since you understand that Israel can never have a non-Jewish president, you know that Israel is no democracy. And women leaders is no gauge of democracy. By that measure, many of the worlds current democratic powers wouldn't be (USA being a notable one). A democratic govt is representative of the people, which Israel can never be.
The UN hasn't agreed weather the Sheba farms are part of Lebanon or Syria. It _has_ agreed on Israel's illegal occupation of it. If Lebanon, then = Illegal Occupation, If Syria, then the area is Part of the Golan Heights = Illegal occupation. Israel has no legitimate rule over the are whichever way you twist it. Hezbollah called them on it. Israel decided to squat on a 2.5km wide land that it cannot legitimately occupy and that would fuel the anger of its Arab neighbors and many terrorist organizations. - yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -4/+8Israel can have a non-Jewish president, just like the US can have a non-Christian president (do you see that ever happening?) and just like the UK can have a non-Christian PM - you must be confused with the Arab states, where government positions are limited to certain ethnicities by law.
You claim "women leaders is no gauge of democracy", then you claim "A democratic govt is representative of the people" - last I checked, women composed more than half the population of nearly all western countries. Why is it you think women leaders are no gauge of democracy, while leaders from an ethnic minority are such a gauge?
Your last paragraph proves what I have claimed above - you're the one granting legitimacy to Hizbullah, who have no say in Lebanese-Israel relations (that's the Lebanese and Israeli governments' job), let alone Syrian-Israeli relations.
It's quite clear you are very fond of terrorists - specifically terrorists who attack Israel. - fiskehaps, on 05/12/2008, -3/+8isn't democracy about what the majority want
and as long as the majority is Jewish would they not choice a Arab president, and you can't judge a country being a democracy just by the fact that they not will choice a leader of another religion (then isn't India a democracy, since there is a little very chance that a Muslim ever will become the president)
The Golan Heights was gained by Israel after a war. And it the gains by war is illegal should the US give up every island they gained under the 1+2 world war and give them back to Japan and Germany
Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria should give back all territory taken from the Ottomans during the first Balkan war
All territory taken by the British, French, Italian and Saudi-Arabia before and during WW1 should be given back to the Ottoman Empire (Turkey)
Poland should get all land back they lost during the Partitions of Poland
Even if the state of Israel should give Golan back, would this make the state look weak in the Arabs eyes and make them believe that they're violence, had paid of. And they wouldn't give it back unless they could make a lasting peace-agreement with the Syrian state.
- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -7/+8The only one legitimizing Hizbullah is you - Israel returned to the UN border - the Sheba farms are not Lebanese territory, and the UN has affirmed the border and the Sheba farms' status in particular.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -5/+10Israel withdrew from Lebanon at the turn of the century. You fail to mention that Hezbollah attacked Israel and captured two of its soldiers. There is a difference between an invasion and an occupation. Sheba farms is some lame excuse Hezbollah tells to the Lebanese to try to get them on their side.
"100% of all middle eastern democracies/quasi-democracies/pseudo-democracies have been invaded/occupied by Israel or its allies"
Would you like to give an example of this? Except Lebanon, there isn't anything close to an Arab democracy which Israel has invaded and the only reason Israel invaded Lebanon is because of terrorist organizations there.
"Israel itself isn't even a democracy. Despite its trophy arabs in the cabinet, the largely jewish population would never accept an arab president." That is BS. There are Arabs in the Israeli parliament, the Israeli Supreme Court and the cabinet. In 1999, an Arab became Miss Israel, there is an Arab Ambassador. They have just as much power as any Jew in those positions. There is no law prohibiting Arabs from becoming president or prime minister. Palestinians in the territories aren't Israeli citizens. Does the US have to give Iraqis right to vote in the US. Israel never annexed WB and Gaza and seek to form a Palestinian state there. The reason Israel occupies the territories is because of security threats so evident there. I'm an Israeli living in the US, and I have full citizens' rights despite living outside of Israel. I guess the only thing we agree on is that we don't like those far right settlers in the territories.
I'll rather have an Arab as president or Prime minister with similar platform as Barak Obama's (future president of the US) then a far right religious Jew.
"the land was given to them by God, and hence only a Jew may rule it"---- 64% of Israeli Jews are secular like me and don't give a damn what the Bible says. We aren't as ethnocentric as you like to think we are.
I agree with you that there is some discrimination by it isn't systematic or by law.
You seem to ignore that Israel gives its Arabs the right to vote, run and hold position in government unlike in Syria, Jordan, Egypt and so on.... If that isn't a democracy than what is?
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -5/+11You're giving the Palestinians too much credit. They ELECTED Hamas. They don't want the terrorists gone. They want the terrorists in charge.
- fiskehaps, on 05/12/2008, -4/+3For the most of the Palestinians isn't Hamas terrorist, but freedom fighters who fight against the Israeli occupation
- Fullvinyl, on 05/12/2008, -0/+2Well, yeah, I'm not sure anyone else in Maine would really approve of that either.
/sarcasm
- anidal, on 05/12/2008, -8/+20There was one, Iran... but the US took care of that in the 50s. Lebanon, the second quasi-democracy in the region has been invaded and occupied twice by Israel, the first of which created Hezbollah and the second which solidified their hold on Lebanon.
- 911ArtStudent, on 05/12/2008, -11/+11When roosevans can think cogently instead of mindelessly regurgitate propaganda it will be a miracle!
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -1/+1seems the same applies to you good sir.
hate..
but don't substantiate. - IKORKYI, on 05/12/2008, -1/+3when was the last time Israel attacked palestinian territory not in retaliation?
- IKORKYI, on 05/13/2008, -0/+1YEAH YOU ***** CONFORMISTS!
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -1/+1seems the same applies to you good sir.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -6/+14Israel, like any other nation, has as its PRIMARY DUTY, the obligation to defend its citizens from foreign threats. Therefore it will always "fear Hamas" more than it "fears injustice." Of course, there are arguments that the treatment of the Palestinians is Just, even if unfortunate.
- kelly, on 05/12/2008, -1/+4Remember the Palestinians train their children to kill Jewish people. They need to fear all of them as the woman and children are acting out terrorist acts and therefore they too need to be reacted as any soldier otherwise would. So playing the sympathy card, "they're just women and children" doesn't work.
- kelly, on 05/12/2008, -1/+2The fact that I'm being dugg up so easily by the Jewish hating digg community makes me feel compelled to clarify my position...
" They [Israel] need to fear all of them [The Palestinians] as the woman and children are acting out terrorist acts and therefore they too [Israel] need to be reacted to as any soldier otherwise would [To the Palestinians]."
- kelly, on 05/12/2008, -1/+2The fact that I'm being dugg up so easily by the Jewish hating digg community makes me feel compelled to clarify my position...
- kelly, on 05/12/2008, -1/+4Remember the Palestinians train their children to kill Jewish people. They need to fear all of them as the woman and children are acting out terrorist acts and therefore they too need to be reacted as any soldier otherwise would. So playing the sympathy card, "they're just women and children" doesn't work.
- thecoolestguy, on 05/12/2008, -4/+5Is "love themselves more than they hate Israel" Zionist code for "Not care about the theft that Israel committed against them and consent to being expelled from their homeland"?
- radiopayola, on 05/12/2008, -0/+1....
- methos75, on 05/12/2008, -2/+0I still do not understand how Israel stoled the Levant from the Palestinians when they were the first to lay claim to that area and it was them expelled by first the Romans and the Muslims, allowing the Palestinians the ability to move in. They simply took back what was rightfully their homeland, before the Romans allowed the palestinians control of that area to spite the Jews.
- IKORKYI, on 05/12/2008, -1/+1Israel didnt do anything except accept the land at the end of WWII. They should be mad at the countries around them who said go ***** yourselves when their territory was being taken.
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -1/+2I'm curious where you live "thecoolestguy" (sic).. because wherever that is, I don't imagine the establishment of the state of Israel involved nearly the "theft" that securing your little spot of heaven did.. but of course, Israel is the only country who's establishment was democratically enacted by an international body, and who's land allocation was based on demographics at the time, ensuring that both populations of the region, had they been willing to accept peaceful co-existence, would have remained self-deterministic independent states.
nonetheless, you keep parroting the theft meme.. regardless of the fact that it makes you a hypocrite plain and simple.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -11/+16I sure hope you are right about the Palestinians destroying Hamas part. I wonder what kind of government the Palestinians seek in their future Palestinian state because I don't see any democratic Arab country in ME right now. Lebanon maybe but I don't know much about Lebanon politics.
- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -28/+19with an article like this you better get ready for all the angry nerd jews on the internet, 'you nazi fascist!'
dugg- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -12/+17Dugg down for calling me nerd, and putting things in my mouth that I never said on digg. Also for telling me what my state of mind (angry) which it isn't. My state of mind is anxiety because of college finals.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -13/+12How did I get dugg down for that? I said undisputed truth.
- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -10/+9That's why you got dugg down. Duh.
- Rikkochet, on 05/12/2008, -0/+2Because you made a really weird comment. Like, really weird.
- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -9/+12i didn't say anything about you, jesus christ shut the ***** up and stop begging to be dugg up.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+10I didn't beg to to get dugg up. You pretty much just said that anyone who doesn't agree with this article is an angry nerd jew you calls people nazis.
- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -3/+2which most likely isn't that far from the truth.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -2/+4So now you guys just belittle anyone who disagrees with you. You guys have no civility or pursuit of argument. No wonder you guys like countries like Iran and Syria.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+10I didn't beg to to get dugg up. You pretty much just said that anyone who doesn't agree with this article is an angry nerd jew you calls people nazis.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -13/+12How did I get dugg down for that? I said undisputed truth.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -12/+17Dugg down for calling me nerd, and putting things in my mouth that I never said on digg. Also for telling me what my state of mind (angry) which it isn't. My state of mind is anxiety because of college finals.
- 911ArtStudent, on 05/12/2008, -17/+26For those who don't know it, roosevans was regurgitating a typical CAMERA/FLAME/IDF talking point when she stated that the Palestinians hate Israel more than they love themselves.
This propaganda talking point has been more eloquently stated by Jeffry Glodberg and was conclusively rebutted by Norman Finkelstein here:
http://www.counterpunch.org/finkelstein10062007.ht ...- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -12/+12Palestinians could have peace and safety and a better future for their children if they would give up their goal of wiping israel of the face of the earth. Clearly their hatred for Jews is more important to them.
Need more evidence? They send their CHILDREN to go throw rocks at Israeli ARMED soldiers.
Need more evidence? They strapped bombs to their kids and make them go blow up innocent women and children.- zerocool1990, on 05/12/2008, -4/+8OH JUST SHUT THE ***** UP YOU AND YOUR ***** PROPAGANDA.
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -1/+1convincing
- 911ArtStudent, on 05/12/2008, -3/+7Take a look at how Israelis instruct their children:
http://angrywhitekid.blogs.com/weblog/2006/07/a_tr ...
Oh and what's this, a 11 year year old girl used as a human shield. What kind of professional soldier hides behind a young girl's skirt? Oh wait a second, the same kind that randomly open fire with .50 cal machine guns into a village in the middle of the night: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiO0GYsyR4A
Take a look at how Chris Hedges, a journalist writing for Harpers, described life for Palestinian children in the refugee camp of Khan Younis:
"Yesterday, at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of 18. One was 12. This afternoon they kill an 11-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under 18. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered - death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo - but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -3/+2Looks like propaganda. Hearsay.
- zerocool1990, on 05/12/2008, -4/+8OH JUST SHUT THE ***** UP YOU AND YOUR ***** PROPAGANDA.
- akamurph, on 05/12/2008, -3/+3911ArtStudent, I sense much hate in you, yes indeed.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -12/+12Palestinians could have peace and safety and a better future for their children if they would give up their goal of wiping israel of the face of the earth. Clearly their hatred for Jews is more important to them.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -25/+16I really doubt you guys are ready to boycott Israel once you realize all the technologies that come out of Israel.
- LadyKofNYC, on 05/12/2008, -12/+23Plenty of companies out there to fill the void. There ARE some smart people outside of Israel, you know.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -10/+11I'm not saying other companies don't sell some of the same stuff as Israel. There a lot of smart people across the globe but so much technology gets developed in Israel that removing from your home everything Israeli is just impractical. Plus isolating the only liberal democracy is just "timmy" (southpark reference).
- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -13/+13Awww, looks like LadyKofNYC has an inferiority complex.
- Herkimer56, on 05/12/2008, -11/+10She should. She's inferior.
- LadyKofNYC, on 05/12/2008, -8/+8Of course you being the bigot you are would say something like that.
- Herkimer56, on 05/12/2008, -7/+5I was referring to your clearly damaged brain.
- LadyKofNYC, on 05/12/2008, -10/+12And it looks like yonoz believes non-Israelis couldn't possibly compete with the superior Israelis. Sorry for suggesting such a thing, masterful great one.
- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -9/+8Why, some of my best friends are non-Israelis.
(Sorry for using your regular line there)
Seriously now, what gave you that idea? - LadyKofNYC, on 05/12/2008, -9/+11No they're not. And I've never used that line.
- yonoz, on 05/12/2008, -9/+8Why, some of my best friends are non-Israelis.
- Herkimer56, on 05/12/2008, -11/+10She should. She's inferior.
- MASH007, on 05/12/2008, -5/+12What you don't know is that the US and Israeli allies feed them such "new" technologies.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -6/+5Would you like to explain?
Just because the US subsidizes some of the Israeli military and infrastructure doesn't mean that every technology developed in Israel is really American. Money only goes so far, it takes brains to be innovative. - thecoolestguy, on 05/12/2008, -1/+3American military tech gets transferred to Israel every year under the Master Defense Development Data Exchange Agreement which provides Israel with Technical Data Packages showing blueprints and building plans, including lists of materials used, for military equipment that took billions of US tax dollars to develop.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -6/+5Would you like to explain?
- LadyKofNYC, on 05/12/2008, -12/+23Plenty of companies out there to fill the void. There ARE some smart people outside of Israel, you know.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -22/+29Why don't we boycott every country that isn't a democracy such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, Jordan, Syria and Egypt? Oh, China too!
- whoreable, on 05/12/2008, -9/+15Seek attention elsewhere.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -5/+8It's a legitimate question to this thread and article.
- zerocool1990, on 05/12/2008, -3/+4No It's not, we're not talking about democracy, we're talking about apartheid and racism.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -2/+4And how are the countries I mentioned not apartheid or racist? Plus its debatable whether Israel is apartheid.
- zerocool1990, on 05/12/2008, -3/+4No It's not, we're not talking about democracy, we're talking about apartheid and racism.
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -1/+2Don't feed the Zio-Troll; it's too Zionist.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -5/+8It's a legitimate question to this thread and article.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -5/+14Except that Israel is a democracy.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -8/+10Exactly, Israel shouldn't be boycotted. It is this double standard that people have towards Israel that shows how antisemitic some of them are.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -4/+9I couldn't agree more. But I think that most of them intend to be anti-semetic. I think they just intend to be anti-Israel, not realizing that the whole core of the anti-Israel movement was started by anti-Semites.
The stronger argument to offer them, is to just stick to the facts of the double-standard they are asserting, without questing their motives.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -4/+9I couldn't agree more. But I think that most of them intend to be anti-semetic. I think they just intend to be anti-Israel, not realizing that the whole core of the anti-Israel movement was started by anti-Semites.
- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -8/+4Israel is a democracy ... if you are jewish ... otherwise you can get the ***** out? how's the for democracy, pretty much the same kinda democracy in Iran... lol
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -4/+9So are you denying that Israeli Arabs don't have the right to vote? The right to run for office and hold government positions? Are you denying that they can't serve in the army, buy and own land? Are you denying that there is an Arab in the Israeli Supreme Court? Are you denying that there are arabs in parliament? Are you denying that there are arabs in the cabinet?
- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -1/+2no i'm not, I said that for the fun of it.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -4/+9So are you denying that Israeli Arabs don't have the right to vote? The right to run for office and hold government positions? Are you denying that they can't serve in the army, buy and own land? Are you denying that there is an Arab in the Israeli Supreme Court? Are you denying that there are arabs in parliament? Are you denying that there are arabs in the cabinet?
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -8/+10Exactly, Israel shouldn't be boycotted. It is this double standard that people have towards Israel that shows how antisemitic some of them are.
- yergi, on 05/12/2008, -10/+7...so is Iran.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -3/+11No it isn't. The ayatollah is the supreme ruler and commander in chief. Plus the mullahs can put anyone off the ballot.
- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -4/+2commander in chief... lollllll fkn americans.
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -2/+1false
fail
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -3/+11No it isn't. The ayatollah is the supreme ruler and commander in chief. Plus the mullahs can put anyone off the ballot.
- bicyclethief, on 05/12/2008, -1/+2As if democracy means the country acts humanely. Look at us.
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -2/+1HAHAHAHAHAHHA....
aahaa..ahahahahaha
HAHAHAHAHAH
HAAAAAAAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAAAA
HOLY COW
are you stupid
oh
and wrong
f*king white arab
that i believe
- whoreable, on 05/12/2008, -9/+15Seek attention elsewhere.
- IanPR, on 05/12/2008, -11/+1Dugg for the sick Apache.
- whatthefu, on 05/12/2008, -14/+20BUT YOU GUYSSSS Israel protects the United States' interests in the first place and therefore we can never betray them or even think about criticizing their actions! They're victims and have always been victims! Zionism = Judaism so if you think Zionism is a bad concept then you are TOTALLY anti-semitic!
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -9/+12#1) Israel does protect US interest. Without them Saddam and the Iraqs would have nuclear weapons today. on top of that, most of our intelligence about Iran and Saudi Arabia, and all the other countries in the region comes from Israel. In a world where global terrorism is major threat, intelligence is our most important weapon.
#2) Criticizing Israel is fine with pro-Israelis. What Israel's supports have a problem with is the double-standard that is applied to Israel. American's have a zero-tolerance policy about terrorists when it comes to attacks on themselves, but when it comes to attacks on Israel, they BLAME the victims.
#3) Israel IS a country of victims. It was founded by holocaust survivors, in recognition of the fact that the entire world played a part in the extermination of Jews during the holocaust. It was attacked by all its neighbors on the eve of its founding. It was attacked several more times by several countries. Now it has to deal with daily attacks on its civilian population. Your problem isn't that Israel is a country of victims, you're problem is that its a country of victims who are fighting back.
#4) Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing, but they are closely tied together. The fact that a VERY tiny percentage of the Jewish population is anti-Israel doesn't serve as an excuse for people to draw a fine line between the two. That would be like saying racism against blacks is fine because a few blacks say anti-black things.- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -3/+3I think it was sarcasm...
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -1/+2Membership in cults like Ziontology tend to diminish one's sense of humor.
- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -3/+3I think it was sarcasm...
- eclipse007, on 05/12/2008, -5/+7@flossdaily
From your comment earlier:
"#2) Any Jews who aren't Zionists are completely ignorant about their own history. And anyone who is anti-Zionist is anti Jew, whether they intend to be or not."
From this comment:
"#4) Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing, but they are closely tied together. The fact that a VERY tiny percentage of the Jewish population is anti-Israel doesn't serve as an excuse for people to draw a fine line between the two. That would be like saying racism against blacks is fine because a few blacks say anti-black things."
Both are pure *****. Seek help (and education too). - thecoolestguy, on 05/12/2008, -3/+5More horsesht from an Israeli propagandist.
------------
#1) Israel does protect US interest. Without them Saddam and the Iraqs would have nuclear weapons today. on top of that, most of our intelligence about Iran and Saudi Arabia, and all the other countries in the region comes from Israel. In a world where global terrorism is major threat, intelligence is our most important weapon.
-------------
If not for Israel's 5th column in the US (i.e. people like you), the US would not need to be enemies with Saddam in the first place. Before you come up with another Israeli propaganda excuse, I'll point out that AIPAC is the single biggest political force that pushed for US sanctions against Iraq and US sanctions against Iran today (which is costing the US hundreds of billion in lost business opportunities that are instead going to Russia, and to a far greater extant, China).
-------------------------------
#2) Criticizing Israel is fine with pro-Israelis. What Israel's supports have a problem with is the double-standard that is applied to Israel. American's have a zero-tolerance policy about terrorists when it comes to attacks on themselves, but when it comes to attacks on Israel, they BLAME the victims.
--------------------------------------------
Maybe because America isn't trying create an Anglo state, centered around an Anglo religious/ethnic identity, on foreign soil. Millions of Jewish Zionists created a F.UCKING JEWISH STATE on a land that was 95% Arab 100 years. It's Jewish apartheid.
----------------------
#3) Israel IS a country of victims. It was founded by holocaust survivors, in recognition of the fact that the entire world played a part in the extermination of Jews during the holocaust. It was attacked by all its neighbors on the eve of its founding. It was attacked several more times by several countries. Now it has to deal with daily attacks on its civilian population. Your problem isn't that Israel is a country of victims, you're problem is that its a country of victims who are fighting back.
--------------
Bullsht. This has nothing to do with the holocaust. Jews also committed mass murder against Ukrainians and others in Russia, no one is saying that Ukrainians should be able to victimize an enitrely different ethnicity since "they are a victim race".
----------------------------
#4) Zionism and Judaism are not the same thing, but they are closely tied together. The fact that a VERY tiny percentage of the Jewish population is anti-Israel doesn't serve as an excuse for people to draw a fine line between the two. That would be like saying racism against blacks is fine because a few blacks say anti-black things.
-------------------------------------------
Zionism is racism, it is apartheid, and its excusers are evil.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -9/+12#1) Israel does protect US interest. Without them Saddam and the Iraqs would have nuclear weapons today. on top of that, most of our intelligence about Iran and Saudi Arabia, and all the other countries in the region comes from Israel. In a world where global terrorism is major threat, intelligence is our most important weapon.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -21/+27Yet another hateful anti-Israel article that demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of Israel's legal system.
Israel is the only place in the middle east where a lesbian Muslim women has all the same rights and freedoms as any other citizen. Apartheid my ass.- MASH007, on 05/12/2008, -12/+15LOL, your complete lack of knowledge amazes me, yet you still waste your breath making this comment.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+12mash007, would you like to explain how flossdaily is wrong?
- FadieZ, on 05/12/2008, -9/+8For one, a lesbian Muslim woman has the same rights as everyone in Lebanon and in the U.A.E. I'm sure there are other countries but those are the only two I know about so far. Why are people so quick to assume Israel is way more civilized than all the other Arab countries?
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -8/+11Wrong. The U.A.E. is quite repressive, and as far as lesbian rights goes... here's a website that tells you where you can find the U.A.E.'s anti-homosexual laws:
http://www.iglhrc.org/site/iglhrc/content.php?type ...
Don't let the facts hit you on the way out.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -8/+11Wrong. The U.A.E. is quite repressive, and as far as lesbian rights goes... here's a website that tells you where you can find the U.A.E.'s anti-homosexual laws:
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -6/+10It's definitely more liberal. As to Lebanon, Palestinians born in Lebanon aren't given citizenship the last I heard and they are forbidden from 70 occupations. I don't know much about U.A.E. but according to wikipedia, its no where close to a democracy. The presidency and premiership is hereditary. Once the father dies, the son becomes ruler. I hardly call this as giving them the same rights.
- hadees, on 05/12/2008, -3/+3I think Lebanon started to open up occupations but that was fairly recently. As far as I know the citizenship stuff is still true.
- FadieZ, on 05/12/2008, -9/+8For one, a lesbian Muslim woman has the same rights as everyone in Lebanon and in the U.A.E. I'm sure there are other countries but those are the only two I know about so far. Why are people so quick to assume Israel is way more civilized than all the other Arab countries?
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+12mash007, would you like to explain how flossdaily is wrong?
- Zap2, on 05/12/2008, -6/+10To be fair, the Apartheid could have nothing to do with gay/straight.
The point the article hints at(they don't really say much about it) is Jewish rights vs Non Jewish rights....sooooo gay stuff doesn't have much to do with the isse here.- Tangaroa, on 05/12/2008, -7/+8To be fair, there is no "Apartheid". Israelis are Israelis regardless of race. The Palestinians are a group of Arabs who refused to accept Israel's existence, claimed nationality to the Greater Arab Nation (oops, it was never formed), and fly the Arab Nationalist flag of the Kingdom of Hejaz (oops again). Israel was stuck with them after conquering the chunks of Jordan and Egypt where they lived. Since they are resident foreigners, Israel is under no obligation to give them citizenship and voting rights for the national government. Instead Israel has tried to give them a chunk of land for their own state, but they keep demanding more of Israel and pledging not to stop killing Israelis until they get it, or ever sometimes.
- thecoolestguy, on 05/12/2008, -4/+3Tangaroa with more of his bullsht. He's actually stating that ALL the Palestinians under occupation refused to recognize the Jewish state. What utter horsesht Israel's fanboys write.
- tman84, on 05/12/2008, -3/+4"a lesbian Muslim women has all the same rights and freedoms as any other citizen"
any other non jewish citizen, which is still less than jewish citizens- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -1/+4Why do you keep ignoring that Israeli Arabs have all the same rights as all Israeli citizens. There are arabs in the Israeli parliament, the Israeli supreme court, and in the cabinet.
- MASH007, on 05/12/2008, -12/+15LOL, your complete lack of knowledge amazes me, yet you still waste your breath making this comment.
- unpolloloco, on 05/12/2008, -9/+16When will people learn that BOTH SIDES are at fault? Palestine lobbs missiles at Israel (and kills a bunch of civilians), then Israel occupies Palestinian territories (and kills a bunch of civilians in the process), then pulls out, and Hamas celebrates by lobbing more missiles at Israel. Cycle repeats.
I'd say this conflict is better than the US/Iraq conflict - we've killed how many civilians so far? - CrudeDarkness, on 05/12/2008, -12/+13for those ignorant of what happens in the middle east I would like to present for you an eye opening video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-529391726 ...
and this is its digg page if you want to digg it: http://digg.com/world_news/Peace_Propaganda_and_th ...- thecoolestguy, on 05/12/2008, -3/+3The Israeli propagandists don't like that. They want to continue repressing the Palestinians and rewarding those that help them.
- MASH007, on 05/12/2008, -12/+20I wish Israel would abide by the numerous UN resolution to return to there original borders set by international consensus many years ago. This would give Israelis the country they want, and Palestinians the country they need.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -6/+11I agree with you that Israel should get out of the West Bank and Gaza but not until they get a peace deal from the Palestinians.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -2/+5Self correction, Israel got out of Gaza, its just under siege.
- zerocool1990, on 05/12/2008, -2/+2NEWS FLASH DIMWIT..Oslo ring a bell ? how about madrid ? maybe road map ? Camp David much ?
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -1/+3News flash, those are still not peace deals where Israel is being recognized
- Tangaroa, on 05/12/2008, -2/+6"I wish Israel would abide by the numerous UN resolution to return to there original borders set by international consensus many years ago" -- That would be these borders, set back when the land of Israel was more commonly known as Palestine:
http://www.mythsandfacts.com/Conflict/mandate_for_ ...
Of course, Jordan would have to get out of the way.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -6/+11I agree with you that Israel should get out of the West Bank and Gaza but not until they get a peace deal from the Palestinians.
- flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -19/+40The definition of Apartheid is racial segregation.
The simple fact is that Israel doesn't segregate based on race.
Israel, like EVERY OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET, segregates based on NATIONALITY. Palestinians are NOT Israelis.
Arabs and Muslims citizens of Israel have all the same rights and privileges as Jewish citizens in Israel- including the right to serve in the military, buy property, worship whatever they want, where and how they want.
If Israel is Apartheid because of their treatment of Palestinians, then the United States is Apartheid because of our treatment of Iraqis.
Occupations suck, but sometimes they are necessary in the interest of insuring domestic security. Don't confuse occupied populations with domestic populations. Its not the same. Palestinians aren't Israelis, nor will they ever be.- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+12flossdaily, its like you read my mind. I agree with you 100% on this.
- lateralus, on 05/12/2008, -8/+6you two should date.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -2/+5That is just a childish comment.
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -2/+1flossdaily wants to put his meatpuppet deep into monsieurginger's sockpuppet
- lateralus, on 05/12/2008, -8/+6you two should date.
- DrHoliday, on 05/12/2008, -14/+16OK, it's not Apartheid. It's just forced starvation, isolation, and murder. Thanks for clearing that up.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -8/+12Murder - innocents always die in war.
Isolation- everybody forgets that Egypt has a border with Gaza yet no one calls for boycott of Egypt.
Starvation - they have so many children while leaving on no income. They rely completely on foreign aid from the western world (including Israel) and Israel lets food in before their is a starvation. - flossdaily, on 05/12/2008, -6/+9Well, at least we're having the right debate now.
As far as forced starvation? Well, the poverty of the Palestinians should be blamed on their own mismanagement. When Israel was running all of their infrastructure for them, they were in much better shape. It wasn't until they turned things over to Arafat that they started living in their current state. See Arafat pocketed billions of dollars in aid money that was supposed to go to his people.
Israel does allow food and medical aid into Palestinian territories, and they have given more aid to the palestinians than all the arab nations combined.
As far as Isolation goes- well, maybe if they stopped trying to smuggle weapons in from other countries, or suicide bombers into israel, they would have more freedom of movement. As it is, Israel must keep them isolated in the interest of national security. You know, because Israeli's don't like having their kids blown up on school buses any more than Americans do.
Murder? Well, if you call self-defense murder, then- yeah.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -8/+12Murder - innocents always die in war.
- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -10/+10lol israel is actually on PALESTINIAN lands, get the ***** out of here with your religious *****, "israeli's" are nothing more jewish euro's on arab lands.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -5/+8Actually most Israeli Jews are descendants from Arab lands. Places were they didn't have the rights as in a liberal democracy. My mom was born in Tunisia but got kicked out in 1961.
- fiskehaps, on 05/12/2008, -4/+7"PALESTINIAN lands"
if I know my history right have Palestine never been a independence state, and should therefore not have any rights to the land, even through they live there
I you take it historical is the last time Judea was independent was before the Romans (after the Roman was it the Caliphate, Mameluke, Ottomans and English), and back then was it the Jews that ruled the country- xerosawyer, on 05/12/2008, -4/+5ALRIGHT THEN LETS GIVE ALL OF EUROPE BACK TO THE ITALIANS THEN, ***** idiot.
- fiskehaps, on 05/12/2008, -2/+4That is you that is an idiot by talking that way, and blindly believe that only what you think is the truth
I tried to show you that the Palestine don't have more right to the land, than the Jewish people just because they have lived there the last couple of centuries
if the think you say is true should USA give up the land stolen from the native population, and Turkey should give up all land taken from the Greek and Armenian
- thecoolestguy, on 05/12/2008, -6/+4Here come the Israeli racists/colonizers here to argue that there is no such thing as a Palestine and the Palestinians don't have a right to their ancestral land.
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -2/+2There's a swarm of ziontologists on today. i guess getting kicked off wikipedia freed up CAMERA/AIPAC sockpuppets for work on digg.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_fo ...
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -2/+2There's a swarm of ziontologists on today. i guess getting kicked off wikipedia freed up CAMERA/AIPAC sockpuppets for work on digg.
- bokep, on 05/12/2008, -2/+7"Arabs and Muslims citizens of Israel have all the same rights and privileges as Jewish citizens in Israel"
Funniest thing I've read all week.- flossdaily, on 05/13/2008, -0/+1It happens to be true. But, hey, what do I know, I only took one semester of U.S. / Israel Comparative Law.
- kipmartin, on 05/12/2008, -2/+6wrong. modern dictionaries define apartheid as a·" A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups" and "The condition of being separated from others; segregation."
any way you cut it, Israel is bad news. look up 'neoconservative' on wikipedia and read what it says about the birth of neoconservativism and Israel. or read anything by Pat Buchanan on the subject. Isarel, Sharon, the Likud, Perle, Wolfowica, etc...all bad news.
and no, i dont wear an aluminum hat. this stuff is documented by media everywhere--except the neocon screeds.- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -2/+3Funny how Democrats, including liberal Democrats, support Israel just as much as the Republicans.
- flossdaily, on 05/13/2008, -0/+1Israel doesn't practice segregation.
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -3/+5"Arabs and Muslims citizens of Israel have all the same rights and privileges as Jewish citizens in Israel- including the right to serve in the military, buy property, worship whatever they want, where and how they want."
in STARK contract to the 2nd class status that religious minorities in the Palestinian Territories and the rest of the Arabic lands have come to enjoy.
but again, double standards with regards to Israel are par for the course.
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -7/+12flossdaily, its like you read my mind. I agree with you 100% on this.
- HotSaucePanCake, on 05/12/2008, -16/+8Uh oh here come the jew haters out of their caves!!! RUN FOR IT THEY HAVE ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!
- kipmartin, on 05/12/2008, -0/+3its one thing to be a Jew-hater, which is a irrational and dispicable tenet, and quite another to be anti-israel. the two are separate and non-related in the world of political science.
- HotSaucePanCake, on 05/13/2008, -0/+1really? seems one in the same to me... one wants to share the other acts like a little kid and won't..
- kipmartin, on 05/12/2008, -0/+3its one thing to be a Jew-hater, which is a irrational and dispicable tenet, and quite another to be anti-israel. the two are separate and non-related in the world of political science.
- Vigrant, on 05/12/2008, -19/+21What the hell is with digg being anti-israel?
- 1randomguyO8, on 05/12/2008, -8/+12Its called "the world" being anti-Israeli
- Tangaroa, on 05/12/2008, -13/+14PLO propaganda has gotten a big boost in acceptance in the past five years and more people are starting to believe it despite historical facts.
- 911ArtStudent, on 05/12/2008, -8/+10That's what happens when people become informed. *sighs*
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -3/+4That's what happens when people become MISinformed.
FTFY
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -3/+4That's what happens when people become MISinformed.
- calantus, on 05/12/2008, -6/+1its not anti 'israel' its anti israeli foreign policy, i think anyway.
- 1randomguyO8, on 05/12/2008, -8/+15Jewish settlelands and land grabbing on the Westbank.
http://dovaryeh.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/settle ...- 1randomguyO8, on 05/12/2008, -2/+3*Settlements* -.-"
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008, -15/+13911ArtStudent, do you hate Jews?
- Tangaroa, on 05/12/2008, -7/+10Given that he links to "Electronic Intifada" and seeing him celebrating the fact that his computers' CPUs "don't even come with a kosher label" in the first thread, that question does not need to be asked.
- 911ArtStudent, on 05/12/2008, -8/+4Do you insist on a kosher label for your cpu's Tangaroa?
- EmporerTitus, on 05/12/2008, -2/+1The wisecrack about kosher cpus was intended to mock the intel threadjack.
of course you have to turn it into a venue to express your overwhelming, eternal self-pity.
- zerocool1990, on 05/12/2008, -9/+10Yes quickly label him as a jew-hater because he thinks what Israel does is wrong.
- hadees, on 05/12/2008, -7/+9No label him as a Jew hater because his original digg account was Rocket99 and Jew hating is what he got banned for.
- Butros, on 05/12/2008, -2/+3You just owned this whole ***** thread. Well done!
- rubikon, on 05/12/2008, -2/+3or.. wait for it.
label him a jew hater due to the overt, blind hatred of jews and israel as demonstrated consistently in the comments of 911ArtStudent
- hadees, on 05/12/2008, -7/+9No label him as a Jew hater because his original digg account was Rocket99 and Jew hating is what he got banned for.
- Tangaroa, on 05/12/2008, -7/+10Given that he links to "Electronic Intifada" and seeing him celebrating the fact that his computers' CPUs "don't even come with a kosher label" in the first thread, that question does not need to be asked.
- EnigmaOX, on 05/12/2008, -9/+6world is becoming anti-israeli,,, wait until arabs start to wake up
- monsieurginger, on 05/12/2008,
