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"Is America Too Damn Religious?"

npr.org — Panelists in a recent debate were tasked with answering that question. Rev. Barry Lynn argued FOR the motion, saying: "What is a damned religion? Damned religion is so weak-willed and unsure of its own capacity to persuade others...that it seeks the blessing and aid of government. This is a corruption both of faith and of constitutional democracy."

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  • royall64, on 10/12/2007, -79/+26Or is religion too damn American? I think both.
    • SqueakyWheel, on 10/12/2007, -76/+12Yes Most of America belongs to the Church of the Devil
    • synystar, on 10/12/2007, -57/+23Christianity isn't the only religion. By far there are more religious people in the rest of the world than there are in the US. Religious people are intolerant of non-religious people and vice versa. It's human nature to be spiritual ...smarter people than me say that a little piece of the human brain makes it possible. As far as we know, we're the only animal capable of it. Why? Who knows. We'll figure it out someday... until then we'd do well to try and understand each other.
    • macmcrae, on 10/12/2007, -33/+124As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities. -Voltaire
      Pretty much sums up american christian fundamentalists.
    • Kratisto, on 10/12/2007, -30/+145Yes. America is too damned religious. I mean, I don't care if people are religious... But America itself (the country) is too religious. What happened to Seperate of Church and State? Things like Stem Cell Research, Abortion, and Gay Marriage are now being decided by the Bible: A book two millenia old that also includes advice and treating your slaves and selling your daughter into prostitution.
    • sotopheavy, on 10/12/2007, -25/+67From one of the master debators for religion and state mixed: "Religious Americans, unlike what you have heard from our worthy opponents are not — repeat not — a threat to our liberties. An overwhelming majority of religious Americans practice what one eminent scholar has termed a quiet faith. It is private rather than public. Tolerant and inclusive, moderate rather than extreme and above all, non-judgmental."

      Has this guy ever been outside an abortion clinique and seen some of the signs people are holding? Any law that takes away your ability to do something because it hurts only yourself and not others is usually put in place because the religious crowd thinks it is immoral or they need to protect you from yourself.

      Here in texas old Slick Rick Perry is requiring that ever middle school girl be vaccinated for HPV a common vinerial disease these days that leads to cirvical cancer and anal warts. Great news right? It may seem a little intrusive, but less VD in the world is what we all want right? NO, long story short the religious crowd is protesting saying that if girls are vaccinated there will be less penalty for having pre-merital sex. Thats right they think since god doesn't want you to have pre-merital sex having it should give you a vinerial disease as punishment.
    • sotopheavy, on 10/12/2007, -25/+1Somehow it looked like Digg cut my comment off but it came back. Sorry for the double post.
    • stisaac, on 10/12/2007, -17/+9Uh, yes. But so are many other countries.
    • Ninja337, on 10/12/2007, -33/+26What? This is a democracy, people have a right to let religion influence their decision at the voting booth. It would be against separation of Church and State to not let their religion guide their politics.
    • PabloMac, on 10/12/2007, -33/+9@ sotopheavy: "Has this guy ever been outside an abortion clinique and seen some of the signs people are holding? Any law that takes away your ability to do something because it hurts only yourself and not others..."

      Abortion doesn't fall into that category, as it definitely hurts the unborn child (not to mention tromps on its right to live his or her own life), as well as the countless others whose lives would have been blessed by each aborted child. Call the individual pot smoker a person who (supposedly) hurts themselves and nobody else, but please don't try to put abortion into that category.
    • think4once, on 10/12/2007, -30/+5So first of all - who says abortion only involves the woman getting it? the stance I believe God has is that its a kids life shes taking away. that hasn't been settled yet because it deals with questions of truth and subjectivity and so it will never really be over. All of this stems from whether people believe theres truth or not. Everyone has to believe in some kind of truth, or else your life is not liveable. problem today: no one believes theres truth when it comes to issues of subjectivity. but who says everythings subjective to begin with? and in case anyones noticed, truth is never a popular thing. if Billy isn't a rockstar, don't tell him he is. tell him truth - it won't be popular and he'll probably tell you thats just your opinion, but God help him if he tries a stage-dive...
    • Bobski, on 10/12/2007, -36/+13"Damned religion is so weak-willed and unsure of its own capacity to persuade others...that it seeks the blessing and aid of government."

      Sounds exactly like a Democrat!
    • MrFlesh, on 10/12/2007, -11/+38Actually in a lot of european countries where christianities violent past is well documented and actually taught in schools and remembered by the populance religion is a personal prefrence..........there isn't a giant movement by one group to push thier religion on someone else.
    • dreamflows, on 10/12/2007, -19/+17... Bush & the Evangelical Christians are the reason for America's Relgiosity. Politics and Religion have been mixed:
      http://basangpanaginip.blogspot.com/2007/02/hitler-man-who-used-evangelical.html



    • dreamflows, on 10/12/2007, -20/+3Bush with Evangelical Christians are the reason why politics and religion mix in America:
      http://www.digg.com/political_opinion/Hitler_The_Man_who_used_Evangelical_Christians_to_Massacre_Atheists
    • banthis, on 10/12/2007, -11/+2No. Our reality is just different than yours. :P
    • Pile, on 10/12/2007, -22/+14Religion becomes obsolete with the advancement of science. Faith and science are opposites.

      Some claim that faith and science can peacefully co-exist, but that's a fallacy perpetrated by those who want to have their cake and eat it too: profit from religion and how it exploits people, and take advantage of modern technology for their own comfort. This is why religion in the 21st century, upon even a cursory examination, is totally hypocritical.

    • Bhima, on 10/12/2007, -14/+9@Pile: This isn't exactly true. Science is proving the mythology of many religions inaccurate. More and more I find science reinforcing core tenets in my religion. Sure science has some stories inaccurate but this doesn't bother me because I don't read the mythology of my religion as word for word truth... it's a myth not a scientific or legal document so it should be read like one!

      So I see the ideas of my religion reflected in the various theories, problems, and discussions in science.
      Evolution: Check!
      Formation of the Planets, Solar System, Galaxies: Check! (including round earth)
      Big Bang or Big Crunch: Great question, neither modus is inconsistent with my beliefs... though I'm partial to Big Crunch
      Atoms & Subatomic particles: Check
      Psychology: Check

      It baffles me how anyone would subscribe to religion which didn't find itself in accord with our understanding of the universe; yet fully half the world does.
    • Foamator, on 10/12/2007, -15/+17Anyone seen a documentary called Jesus Camp? (http://www.yourtvlinks.com/movies.html#J)

      It's about this summer camp for these really religious evangelical christians... and it's pretty scary.
      Anyway, there's one part where the woman in charge says "And now we have a special guest..."
      And she whips out a CARDBOARD CUTOUT of George Dubya, and they all start worshipping it and stuff.

      Watch that, and then try and tell someone that religion and politics aren't mixed in the US.
    • 35263526, on 10/12/2007, -10/+10pile, I wouldn't say they're opposites, and they can peacefully coexist. If you go absolute fundamentalist (i.e. believes the religious text to be literal) you've admittedly got issues, but if like the vast majority of religious people you're more moderate, the only conflict really comes from belief in God when there's no evidence conclusively proving it. That's a large conflict, but it's a pretty passive one all the same, and while I think it's illogical it doesn't really come into conflict with scientific beliefs since most (at least of the religious people I know) religious people tend to believe that God is above our universe and our science anyway.
    • JesusIsSatan, on 10/12/2007, -9/+11Hmmm...what other developed nation on this planet is even debating whether they should teach evolution instead of creation by God? I think Kansas just this month "approved" that it's okay to teach about evolution.
    • nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -9/+8@sotopheavy

      "Has this guy ever been outside an abortion clinique and seen some of the signs people are holding?"

      First, did you notice he said "An overwhelming majority of religious Americans practice what one eminent scholar has termed a quiet faith"? What miniscule fraction of a percentage protest outside abortion clinics?

      "Here in texas old Slick Rick Perry is requiring that ever middle school girl be vaccinated for HPV a common vinerial disease these days that leads to cirvical cancer and anal warts. Great news right? It may seem a little intrusive, but less VD in the world is what we all want right?"

      I pity shmucks like you with their heads so tightly implanted up their rectums. You don't have to be religious to be opposed to government mandated vaccinations. Individuals should have the right to choose what goes into their own bodies.
    • obrysii, on 10/12/2007, -11/+7"pile, I wouldn't say they're opposites, and they can peacefully coexist. If you go absolute fundamentalist (i.e. believes the religious text to be literal) you've admittedly got issues, but if like the vast majority of religious people you're more moderate, the only conflict really comes from belief in God when there's no evidence conclusively proving it. That's a large conflict, but it's a pretty passive one all the same, and while I think it's illogical it doesn't really come into conflict with scientific beliefs since most (at least of the religious people I know) religious people tend to believe that God is above our universe and our science anyway."

      Science and religion can go hand-in-hand. There is nothing that cannot work between the two. As Galileo said, "[I] do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use."

      There is no conclusive proof disproving God's existence, either.
    • zappo1776, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4People will always have irrational beliefs. If we didn't then nobody would ever try things that seem impossible to us now. We have evolved this way as a survival strategy. It only becomes a real problem when one group tries to force it's beliefs on another group as is so common in America.
    • spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2I'm shocked to see the first comment dugg down so far.

      White Jesus FTW.
    • MatTipton, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@kratisto,

      Believe me, I can understand getting frustrated with narrow-mindedness... but I don't think it's good to turn it back around and point it at the government or point it at religion. People cannot and should not be denied rights because they are "too much/or not enough" by another person's personal benchmark. Those issues you mention, like it or not are being decided by citizens. Granted, those people may be blinded by faith... or narrow minded... or maybe they just are not especially smart people... but they are still people. That's how our government works. It's not as if someone or something else is deciding all of this for us. The american people make these decisions collectively... and these people are fellow citizens who deserve the same rights as you or I. Sure, It's collective suffering for some... but do tell if you've got an better idea with equivalent fairness.
  • baalzebub, on 10/12/2007, -51/+77religion tends to make people closed minded and cynical...
    • Mofassa, on 10/12/2007, -39/+78Organized religion can make people closed minded and cynical,
      religion or spirituality in general there's nothing wrong with
    • stonebear, on 10/12/2007, -31/+96What a closed minded and cynical thing to say.
    • rockchops, on 10/12/2007, -21/+8@stonebear

      Closed-mindedness and cynicism are attitudes. Statements cannot be cynical or close-minded. He may have his own logically thought out reasons for saying what he said. He just didn't share them.
    • CBTF, on 10/12/2007, -22/+14That's pretty hypocritical.
    • bluebonics, on 10/12/2007, -17/+7monotheistic religions make people close minded... polytheistic and religions of an impersonal god seem to have the opposite effect. in fact, those of the latter (when not in the form of imitating yuppie) are very down to earth, open minded people.
    • Teddystiltskins, on 10/12/2007, -26/+7Oh, I can tell how open-minded YOU are!!! Jesus, you think you're more important because you DON'T believe in God or organized religion? You'll meet your maker soon enough. Is it warm down there?
    • Ninja337, on 10/12/2007, -9/+8I think epithets in general make people closed minded and cynical. Republican/Democrat, Christian/Atheist, Capitalist/Communist, holding too tight to any of those would close you off to what the other side has to offer.
    • dle5, on 10/12/2007, -13/+3Yeah, because Communism offers SO much! I hope one day to sample the daily life of a Cuban who lives on $3.00USD a day, just so I can declare myself "open-minded".
    • trenskow, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8There's no need for some great philosophical discussion. The answer is just plain YES, and it's affecting your judgements.
    • khyberkitsune, on 10/12/2007, -9/+6Actually it does make people more closed-minded and cynical. The sad part is, they use their supposed religious 'truth' to force their beliefs upon everyone else. Better take a good look at our laws, people. You'd better take a DAMN close look at them.

      Or even better, take a semester of U.S Gov't in college.

      You'll learn more than you EVER wanted to ***** know.
    • imperium2000, on 10/12/2007, -9/+17Teddy: Oh, I can tell how open-minded YOU are!!! Jesus, you think you're more important because you DON'T believe in God or organized religion? You'll meet your maker soon enough. Is it warm down there?

      Threatening people with hellfire and brimstone because someone doesn't believe in your version of god? If your god sent the unbaptised, jews and unbelievers to hell, I think I'd prefer to burn alongside Confucious, Socrates, Plato, Einstein and more than 4/5 of the entire human population then spend time in heaven with ***** like you...
    • JesusIsSatan, on 10/12/2007, -10/+3About the monotheistic religion called Christianity and how they snub pagans, just ask a Christian who their God is. He'll say Jesus Christ. Then ask him, if Jesus is the son of God, doesn't that make 2 gods and make Christians just a bunch of pagans? Then just sit back and watch his head spin. ;)
    • nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4closeminded - people who don't think like me
    • lazyeyesam, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I think some people have missed the irony.
    • nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1it is pretty much what most people's definition of the term amounts to
    • Afreyt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3When you have successfully turned facts and beliefs into knowledge, thats when its right to be close-minded. So long as you are willing to accept new evidence, when made available.

      But see, when someone presents the same thing over and over again, with no new information to recommend it, and you say, "hey, shut up with your stupid beliefs; this is the same ***** you showed me the last time", THEN they call you close-minded. Its not being close-minded. Is being decisive. When you have evidence for your God, call me, but quit bitching about how we don't take his absent highness (or you) seriously.
  • gmarks, on 10/12/2007, -43/+127The answer: YES! We need an atheist in the white house. 
    • GeneralFailure0, on 10/12/2007, -15/+83We've probably had one, but it'd be political suicide for them to admit it.
    • YourDoom123, on 10/12/2007, -16/+42off the top of my head, thomas jefferson... and i'm sure there are more but i can't remember.
    • argoff, on 10/12/2007, -25/+5I think the answer is ironically that it's too darn scientific. While science has improved drastically in the last 200 years, government and religion haven't improved much at all. The problem is that science is so far ahead that government and religion are having a hard time keeping up - creating imbalances. But science doesn't change the need for them, the need for freedom, the need for our interests to be in the interests of others, the fact that God reconciles these needs in ways that nothing else can. For example, what good is your life if are just a machine - like a clock - pre-destined from birth to death? No science can answer those kind of questions alone.
    • gtapro91, on 10/12/2007, -26/+6no we definatly dont, dumbass. Ive seen what atheists say and write, and if we had an atheist president this country would be turned to ***** more than bush could even try to do
    • dle5, on 10/12/2007, -47/+9Thomas Jefferson was very religious. Unlike what Digg and the Church of Liberalism wants to believe, he fought hard for the idea of no government interference in people's religions. But libs have twisted all his statements around to mean no religion interfering with government. Jefferson would be DISGUSTED at today's liberals.

      Gets dugg down in...3...2...
    • dle5, on 10/12/2007, -36/+4Don't try to indoctrinate me. Link me to a -legitimate- site with full, in context statements by Jefferson that proves he wasn't religious. Not this "www.atheismisawesome!.com" *****.
    • dmax4usa, on 10/12/2007, -22/+4It's funny atheists need a website with the word "positive" in it.
    • dle5, on 10/12/2007, -28/+5So in other words...you have nothing.
    • LiquidTim, on 10/12/2007, -8/+8@gmarks
      I would quadruple digg your comment if possible. I cannot wait until the day where an atheist is in the White House.

      I loved the podcast format of the debate and found it incredibly hard *NOT* to side with the 'America is too religious' supporters.
    • Thex1138, on 10/12/2007, -10/+7"no we definatly dont, dumbass. Ive seen what atheists say and write, and if we had an atheist president this country would be turned to ***** more than bush could even try to do"

      And Bush sat there stone faced doing nothing whilst jet liners were crashing into buildings...was that not *****?...people were dying whilst the VP took control...

      I've never seen Chritianity hate Atheism so much...90% of the country absolutely hate the 10% Atheists...I guess there's no live and let live...?
    • schroeder, on 10/12/2007, -6/+25@dle5
      "Say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone.
      -- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, 11 January 1817, in Lester Cappon, ed. The Adams-Jefferson Letters, (1959) p. 506, quoted from Jeremy Koselak, "The Exaltation of a Reasonable Deity: Thomas Jefferson’s Critique of Christianity"

      I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.
      -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely (June 25, 1819), quoted from Dickinson W Adams, ed, The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Second Series (Princeton University Press, 1983; note that attributions saying "Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University (June 25, 1819)" are incorrect, as that Ezra Stiles died in 1795) ††

      Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
      -- Thomas Jefferson, considering three different explanations for why sea shells would be found at higher elevations than one should reasonably expect an ocean to have existed, in Notes on the State of Virginia ††

      What all agree upon is probably right; what no two agree in most probably is wrong.
      -- Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson's Axiom, in a letter to John Adams, 11 January 1817, quoted from Lester Cappon, ed. The Adams-Jefferson Letters (1959) p. 445"


      These were from the link provided by coasters2k. See the sources? You know, right after every damn quote? If you don't believe the quote read the source. Seriously, there is nothing worse than someone blinded by faith (or whatever you're on) that they won't believe anything they don't want to or doesn't agree with them. And these are the same people running the country...
    • dle5, on 10/12/2007, -22/+3"And Bush sat there stone faced doing nothing whilst jet liners were crashing into buildings...was that not *****?...people were dying whilst the VP took control.."

      He did the responsible thing. Instead of bursting out of his seat in front of a group of young children, he kept a cool head and let his people do their jobs. What did you want him to do? Start sobbing maniacally? Jesus, I hope you don't have children.
    • OrangeTide, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Is there a huge difference between an Atheist and a Deist? We've have plenty of Deists in office (long long ago).
    • Thex1138, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5Oh you making up sentences for me now eh?.. Simply put for you... ;-)

      "I've got some important business to attend too. I'll talk to you kids later.." [In ye old Texas jawl and a poker face] and leave quietly...no biggy ok dude?
    • dle5, on 10/12/2007, -22/+4"These were from the link provided by coasters2k."

      Which part of "full, in context statements" did you not understand? You have all the goods on Jefferson, you shouldn't be afraid to actually explain what he was talking about.

      Oh wait, you just want me to read a book dubiously called "Thomas Jefferson's Critique of Christianity". Good Lord, can you guys go 3 minutes without trying to indoctrinate other people into your non-faith?
    • AniceAtheist, on 10/12/2007, -7/+26@dle5

      How about you go and buy The Jefferson Bible. You can get it at Amazon.com if you want.
      Thomas Jefferson wrote it. He took the gospel of jesus and got rid of all the stupid miracles and divinity. Jesus dies at the end and is buried. Instead of trying to take a quote out of context He wrote a whole damn book as proof that he did not believe in the supernatural nor in a personal god that cares at all what people do. He turned Jesus into Forrest Gump, a guy with good morals and some nice advice.
    • Cameleopard, on 10/12/2007, -9/+13@dle5:
      Take off your asshat, put your hand on your heart, and read the following randomly picked quotes from positiveatheism.org with links to their full and original contexts. In every single one of them that I looked at the context changed absolutely nothing. It's most likely possible to find free sources for every single one of the quotes on positiveatheism.org if you would but exert some iota of effort to escape from ignorance.

      In the first place, divest yourself of all bias in favor of novelty and
      singularity of opinion. Indulge them in any other subject rather than
      that of religion. It is too important, and the consequences of error may
      be too serious. On the other hand, shake off all the fears and servile
      prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason
      firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion.
      Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be
      one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded
      fear.
      http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16782/16782-8.txt

      I love this quote about a "priest-ridden" society:
      History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
      http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl224.htm

      I highly recommend reading this one, as it also reflects Jefferson's true feelings on the separation of church and state:
      Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. Let us reflect that it is inhabited by a thousand millions of people. That these profess probably a thousand different systems of religion. That ours is but one of that thousand. That if there be but one right, and ours that one, we should wish to see the 999 wandering sects gathered into the fold of truth. But against such a majority we cannot effect this by force. Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments.
      http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/JEFFERSON/ch17.html

      The result of your fifty or sixty years of religious reading in the four
      words, 'Be just and good,' is that in which all our inquiries must end;
      as the riddles of all the priesthoods end in four more, '_Ubi panis, ibi
      deus_.' What all agree in, is probably right; what no two agree in, most
      probably wrong. One of our fan-coloring biographers, who paints small
      men as very great, inquired of me lately, with real affection too,
      whether he might consider as authentic, the change in my religion much
      spoken of in some circles. Now this supposed that they knew what had
      been my religion before, taking for it the word of their priests, whom
      I certainly never made the confidants of my creed. My answer was, 'Say
      nothing of my religion. It is known to my God and myself alone. Its
      evidence before the world is to be sought in my life; if that has been
      honest and dutiful to society, the religion which has regulated it
      cannot be a bad one.' Affectionately adieu.
      http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16784/16784-8.txt

      I was glad to find in your book a formal contradiction, at length, of
      the judiciary usurpation of legislative powers; for such the judges have
      usurped in their repeated decisions, that Christianity is a part of
      the common law. The proof of the contrary, which you have adduced,
      is incontrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the
      Anglo-Saxons were yet Pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard
      the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever
      existed. But it may amuse you, to show when, and by what means,
      they stole this law in upon us.
      http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16784/16784-8.txt

      In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to

      liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in

      return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by

      this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have

      perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon,

      unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their

      purposes.
      http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff14.txt

      The returning good sense of our
      country threatens abortion to their hopes, and they believe that any
      portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their
      schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn, upon the altar of
      God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of
      man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough too in their
      opinion.
      http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16783/16783-8.txt

      To talk of immaterial
      existences, is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels,
      God, are immaterial, is to say, they are nothings, or that there is no
      God, no angels, no soul.
      http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16784/16784-8.txt

      No historical fact is better
      established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded,
      was that of the early ages of Christianity; and was amoung the
      efficacious doctrines which gave it triumph over the polytheism of the
      ancients, sickened with the absurdities of their own theology. Nor was
      the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the
      force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the
      will of the fanatic Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like
      another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and
      growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs.
      http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16784/16784-8.txt
    • imperium2000, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6dle5's silence is telling...can't counter Thomas Jefferson's own words?
    • dlbear, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8You're wasting your time with dle5 and merely feeding a troll. He's one of those oblivious ***** that says "Prove it to me" and when you do he says "You still haven't proven it to me"; and you never will, proof is meaningless in a faith-based philosophy. He has no intention of conceding your points.
    • captaineuphoria, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6dle5 is nothing but a stubborn pathetic clown.
    • Cameleopard, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2"You're wasting your time with dle5 and merely feeding a troll."

      I know, but I was having fun looking up the quotes and decided to play along.
  • princessangry, on 10/12/2007, -19/+10gmarks ;) right on.
  • Plasmatica, on 10/12/2007, -20/+70The whole world is too damn religious. America is dealing with rampant Christian fundamentalism, and on the other side of the world they're dealing with violent Islamic fundamentalism and everything in between is caught up in the *****.
    • AniceAtheist, on 10/12/2007, -10/+13Constitution should read "Freedom FROM Religion"
    • Andrej73, on 10/12/2007, -11/+2You wrong!
      USA: 300 million people
      Islam extremist: ~1million people
      Islam: 1200 million people
      World: 6500 million people

      Lot of people out there, who don't care about islam and USA.
    • imperium2000, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Where the hell did you pull that number of Islamic extremist from? A source would be nice
    • guinness3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The vast majority Christians are not rampant fundies.. that's who the media primarily focus on.
  • GR3G, on 10/12/2007, -63/+13May the Lord God Almighty have pity on you non-believers, as well as those who cannot see and/or understand the Truth.
    • PureRED, on 10/12/2007, -20/+19Haha. You're one of those people who bags my groceries at Wal-Mart.
    • Ninja337, on 10/12/2007, -13/+0TAKBIR
    • imperium2000, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Why? If there is an afterlife, will your God forgive me and send me to heaven or will I still be sent to hell and in that case why forgive at all?
  • Ramener, on 10/12/2007, -23/+8There's too much Christianity in America. It's drowning out all the other, better religions.
    • synystar, on 10/12/2007, -16/+4"All the other, better religions". If you believe that there are multiple, better religions than Christianity then you believe that there is not one true religion. If that's true, then you would have to see some truth in Christianity also, no? You're on the right track I think. There is some truth in all religions. Believing that there is only one way is not much different from believing that there is no way. Both are extremes.
    • RG13, on 10/12/2007, -13/+56Christianity is not the problem
      I quote a friend:
      "I don't have anything against Jesus. It's his fan club that ***** me off."
    • gtapro91, on 10/12/2007, -24/+5oh really what other better religions is that? Islam, the one whos holy book tells you to kill non beleivers? Judaism, the one whos morals are like christianity but is too caught up in riches to understand whats important in life? or do u mean the others like Buddhism which was people makin up random ***** and worshipping animals cuz theyre tasty. digg has the ***** stupidest people on this earth i swear.
    • zelig, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2I think he was trying to make a point.
    • imperium2000, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3gtapro91: If you don't know ***** about other religions, then don't frickin insult them. You sound like a racist bigoted idiot. You give all non-theist a bad name.
    • LiterateWolf, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2I agree. Deism is the only religion that can have Deity and science with spirituality without the extremism we're seeing from Xian fundies and atheist fundies like Sam Harris. Be nice if people could think for themselves instead of parroting Ayn Rand and Sam Harris like most Digg users.
  • dip42, on 10/12/2007, -16/+6Religion...? What's that?
  • dgblackout, on 10/12/2007, -17/+13there's too much religion everywhere.
    you'll find that anywhere you'll get it.

    organized religion in general is a threat to democracy
    • synystar, on 10/12/2007, -20/+9I think you meant communism. Democracy espouses freedom.
  • 88Chevy, on 10/12/2007, -25/+37A small mind is easily filled with faith.
    • dgblackout, on 10/12/2007, -19/+25rather plain example, George W Bush.
    • synystar, on 10/12/2007, -19/+22"I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

      -Albert Einstein
    • Mousse, on 10/12/2007, -4/+34synystar,

      In that quote Einstein is talking about Spinoza's god, which certainly doesn't have as much to do about faith as it does about his expression for his awe for the universe.

      "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." - Einstein
    • synystar, on 10/12/2007, -23/+7It's true... but it's apparent, along with other points that Einstein made, that he had faith in a greater power. He did not believe in God they way that many religious people do, he did not believe that the Earth was created 6000 years ago, or in the existence of Hell. But he believed that the Universe exists necessarily by means of a force that we don't understand, and that it came into existence by design. Spinoza himself was a devout man, although he was an outcast amongst his peers. Both of them had faith.
    • Mousse, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22"But he believed that the Universe exists necessarily by means of a force that we don't understand, and that it came into existence by design."

      I don't know how you came to this conclusion. If anything, Einstein believed that we can understand the universe and its formation by understanding its operation. He was opposed to any explanation that would deny the an elegant description of the universe as he perceived it (randomness in quantum physics being one of his points of protest).

      Here are some more of his quotes to think about:

      "The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical comprehensibility of profound interrelations is of a somewhat different sort from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe. It does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image-a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being. For this reason, people of our type see in morality a purely human matter, albeit the most important in the human sphere."

      "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
    • synystar, on 10/12/2007, -11/+2But that was my point. He also said: "I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance — but for us, not for God"

      My point is that Einstein recognized that our existence depends on something greater. Whether or not our lives or deaths have any meaning is up to us. But, we exist because something willed it. No thing comes from nothing. I don't doubt, or know if it's true, that everything observable exists because of a sudden explosion/expansion of extremely dense matter, I only wonder what caused it. There must be "the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding."
  • subject117, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3yes...
  • Beelzebub, on 10/12/2007, -14/+25The great FSM won't be pleased with this.
  • totorototoro, on 10/12/2007, -12/+27"Citizens of religious commitment are among the most enthusiastic supporters of a secular government"

    Uh, she's joking, right?
    • dlbear, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Yeah but the most clueless opinion is "If Americans were much more religious, there would have been much more protest against the revelations of torture at Abu Ghraib and other aspects of our foreign policy". *****, if Americans were much more religious they'd be volunteering to torture and crucify enemy combatants of a different religion. Religion gives spirituality a bad name, it is the worst thing that has ever happened to humanity and will no doubt get worse.
  • nyx210, on 10/12/2007, -12/+28It's not wrong for people to be religious but when it comes to government, your religion shouldn't be involved. At all.
    • TheN0id, on 10/12/2007, -18/+6How do you expect to accomplish this Utopian goal? Most people are religious in some capacity. Wait, I know cyborgs!! That's it, take emotion out of the equation entirely. ---- Yeah, that makes sense.
    • kendals, on 10/12/2007, -14/+2And how does one do this when deciding on ethical issues? Pretty sure ethics are founded on religious frameworks...
    • imperium2000, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Ethics is not based on religion. Humanity and society has evolved specific ethical norms to allows society to work. Non-Judeo-Christian religions have very similar abhorence to killing, stealing etc.

      If you decide to follow the ethics as expoused by the bible, you'd be allowed to kill your children, have slaves, stone adultress and other things that society evolved away from accepting.
  • steve693, on 10/12/2007, -7/+7Rev. Barry Lynn sounds like my kind of guy.
  • cr4ft, on 10/12/2007, -17/+25In order to be an evangelical you have to be intolerant of all other religions. They are, according to the Bible, the enemy:

    Death to Followers of Other Religions
    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    Kill Nonbelievers
    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    Kill False Prophets
    If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)


    The thing I hate most is when they believe that we are all "lost" and in need to be "saved." They ASSUME we all believe that God wrote a Bible, despite it's obvious fallacies.

    My notion is this: Believe what you want and practice what you want. if you however try to force your beliefs down my throat you should be sent away to a place where they could zoo all the Christian Fundamentalists.
    • fac3less, on 10/12/2007, -16/+20Er, it doesn't say kill them.
      In fact it says they're doomed.

      Christians all follow (any true Christian at least) -- HATE THE SIN, Love the SINNER.
      Jesus himself ate at the tables with the SINNERS because, and I quote:

      Matthew 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
      Matthew 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

      There's absolutely nothing wrong with having beliefs. Free will is a beautiful thing.
      You're free to believe what you believe, I'm free to believe what I believe.

      Part of my belief is ensuring that you have heard about Jesus and his message. Beyond that it's all free will buddy.
      God bless!
    • tedhead2k, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6"They ASSUME we all believe that God wrote a Bible, despite it's obvious fallacies."
      That really makes no sense at all. If Christians assumed you believed that, they wouldn't be telling you about it.
    • gtapro91, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22@jimmygoon
      you act like its illegal for someone on digg to not be atheist.
  • Sixotoo, on 10/12/2007, -15/+16As a salesman I find that the more spiritual they are they easier they fall. They will believe anything. Have you ever noticed that the more bible crazy a person is the more they close in on being loons. The less spiritual they are would make them more "Sane". Watch the responses below. It will be the nuts that flame me.
    • syriusblack, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9**insert crazy "nut" flame here**

      I find that being religious, dosen't really change alot of peoples perspective about me at all. Most of my friend are religious or not religious, we don't really care about that portion of each others life......in fact mostly we just work together, watch football games and drink beer.....party....etc.etc. I dont really recall to many theological debates. Hmmmm...... I am so NUTZ!
    • dmax4usa, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." - 1 Corinthians 1:21-25
    • Dewhead, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4What kind of person are you? You sound like a you lacks ethics if you sell to people who "fall" for your sales pitch. The people who believe in what you say and buy from you are trusting people and you are a terrible person for taking advantage of that fact.
  • BJanis, on 10/12/2007, -11/+20The answer is a big YES. The whole WORLD is too religious. Everyone has forgotten that religions are MAN'S attempt to explain the unexplainable. Now we are killing each other for having different illusions about what we can't really know? I guess it's been going on for a LONG time actually. But come on. Time to stop this embarrassing nonsense.
    • fac3less, on 10/12/2007, -34/+8Man's attempt at explaining the unbelievable?
      Science is that. ;)

      Man's been explaining it for thousands of years in the form of the Bible.
      It isn't our fault that you suddenly believe the next best thing to come out of someone's mouth.

      At least *our* doctrine has been around thousands of years. It might be a tad outdated but yours is brand new and untested.
      I'll stick with my faith :)
    • Blhnex, on 10/12/2007, -15/+15to fac3less:
      uh, you're an idiot.
    • fac3less, on 10/12/2007, -19/+8@blhnex,

      Ditto my good friend, ditto. :)

    • bluebonics, on 10/12/2007, -11/+7untested? no, i'll agree with fac3less, you're an idiot.
    • fac3less, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5@coasters2k,

      I'm not a hypocrite in this case. I have no issues with science and what it
      has done to further us -- whether it be in knowledge or technological advances.

      One's beliefs do not have to denounce another's. My faith in God doesn't suddenly mean we didn't descend from apes.
      The fact that we have things in common with all living creatures on the planet doesn't mean we descended from them either, common creator would be the likely of choices.

      Until one or the other is 'fact' -- let's all live in peace, shall we?
      We've got bigger fish to fry than us Christians.

      (and to everyone spouting that 'Christians' run the country -- please. Bush? A Christian?)
      He follows no Christ that I know.

      He lives by the sword. He'll die by it.
    • fooboarder, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13@ fac3less:
      You are right to some extent about science being man’s attempt to explain the unbelievable, more accurately; it is the attempt to explain what has yet to be explained. Science discovers.

      “Man's been explaining [the unexplainable] for thousands of years in the form of the Bible. It isn't our fault that you suddenly believe the next best thing to come out of someone's mouth.”
      I do not blame Christianity for me becoming an atheist. Science is certainly the cause of that. I will not attempt to say that science has proved God to exist or not to exist, but it has proved Christianity to be wrong, and even more certainly so in the fundamentalist understanding of the word. Science is not the next best thing to come out of someone’s mouth. Science is performed following a particular method, it is testable, its results must have validity and be reproduced, and it is peer reviewed. Science did not simply come out of someone’s mouth. The same cannot be said of Christianity. More importantly if we are to follow your line of reasoning wouldn’t we all be worshipping Greek or Roman gods?

      “At least *our* doctrine has been around thousands of years. It might be a tad outdated but yours is brand new and untested.
      I'll stick with my faith :)”
      This is horribly inaccurate. The Bible as any sort of definitive doctrine was not canonized until around 1545 C.E. Christianity itself as any sort of religion has been around for…oh…..about 2007 years……. our system of dating is Christian in origin. Science, however, has been around in a quite well tested and documented form since at least 400 B.C.E. with the works of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. I’m sure there were many scientists before them.

      “The fact that we have things in common with all living creatures on the planet doesn't mean we descended from them either.”
      The facts on evolution are in. Humans did descend from other living creatures that used to inhabit earth. This does not mean that we descended from any animals currently still living on earth. This also certainly undermines any creationist account. Whether or not there are bigger fish to fry, Christians are certainly imposing on the rights of others in this country. You are right that Bush is not a Christian and he does live by the sword. I do not however hope that he dies by it. I would rather see him and this country change their ways, or at least that he would acknowledge his mistakes and resign. This would be a much greater victory on the side of freedom.

      Your response is at best ignorant. I am glad to be seeing people debate, but think before you speak.
    • fac3less, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@fooboarder,

      It was a tad late when I wrote my initial message. I'll be honest it probably did detract from my statements
      more than it helped. Definitely a silly way to win an argument.

      Jesus taught in parables because the world would not understand the direct truth. God is a tad too big for our small minds to handle 'as is'.
      I don't take the stance of creation being 'literal'. It's literal in a sense that 'God said' and it was. How we got to this point is most likely too big for us to fathom.

      Our smallest cells are more complex than most of the stuff we shell out today as top of the line. A bees brain can process more than most supercomptuers -- and faster. Science does an excellent job at deencrypting life but don't use science to detract from God.

      Rather use it as a way to understand that phew -- Damn everything God put on this planet was simply *amazing*. How the smallest objects can be so intricate. God's one amazing creator.

      If you think we descended from apes back in the day -- you're more than free to think that.
      Christians aren't here to denounce everyone else. We're not here to judge.
      We're not here to stone.

      Jesus said it himself:

      Joh 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
      Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
      Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
      Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
      Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
      Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
      Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
      Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
      Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
      Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

      God just wants us to stop sinning. That's all. Most of the stuff we lust after is oh-so-temporary anyways.
      If I spend the next 15 years working my ass off for that gorgeous m5 I see pass me by everyday at work I'll have gained nothing.

      Yet if I spend it helping others I'll make the world of a difference. These aren't "Christian" feelings -- they're simply human.
      Help others, treat others like you would want to be treated yourself and don't hate.

      That's what Christianity is. Christianity isn't the pious thinking they're above you.
      Christianity rather teaches that we're ALL unworthy. We're DIRT.

      Have a great day.
    • dlbear, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2"Christians aren't here to denounce everyone else. We're not here to judge". *****.
      "Christianity isn't the pious thinking they're above you". ***** again.

      Maybe what you say is true of you, I can't be sure since we're not acquainted. But I'm relatively certain that most Christians ARE here to denounce everyone one else and do indeed think they're above me.
    • fac3less, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@dlbear,

      Well to put it in perspective:

      Does all of the US follow Bush?
      Why is the leader of the US then Bush?
      Is everyone in the US bad? Are they all republican?

      Answer: No, who knows, No. No.
      Why does all of Christianity then get denounced and trampled upon just because of some followers?

      At least our leader was preaching a message that I think just about everyone can get behind -- Love your neighbours as yourself and do unto others as you would like those to do unto you.

      Yours? Randomly bombs countries. He's not reading the same message I am.
      Stop generalizing.

    • fooboarder, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@fac3less
      Science certainly does do a good job of decrypting life, better than anything that has come before it. Science does detract from God, at least in a biblical sense. Science shows the faults and inaccuracies of the Bible. More importantly, as science continues to explain our lives and the environment around us, there is less and less of a need to bring God in to explain anything. Life on earth in all its complexity and amazement, from the smallest cells to the brain of a bee, are already explained by evolution, there is no need to bring God into the debate. One might hope to assert that God is the creator of all things, but there is still not any necessity to do so, it is much simpler to just leave God out of any explanation. Any response that a materialist explanation still needs a creator is also a valid question for God. If this is the case it is simpler to acknowledge that we cannot yet explain everything in the material realm, that this is what you call “unfathomable,” not God.

      Jesus did have very wise things to say. Unfortunately, the majority of Christians I have ever encountered do see things as you do, and certainly not as Jesus did. I guess most Christians are more in touch with the Old Testament. Most Christians do judge people and when this judgment infiltrates into our laws and social norms we are not the better because of it.

      I do think there are sins, I do believe in moral wrongs. And while I believe that it is unwise to lust after things like BMW’s, I would also have to say that this is a much more realistic goal then lusting after eternity in heaven. Certainly, if you gain the BMW, then you have gained something. Not all things in our life, here and now, are temporary. If we can do things to change for the better, then we may change the future, we may change things beyond our own lifetime. When one’s focus is on stopping personal sins, then one loses sight of these bigger things. So yes, I very much agree with what your statement that these feelings are simply human feelings.

      As a last clarification we did not descend from “apes.” Are ancestors were not the apes that exist today, they were different species. They were not the species we are now, they are not any species still in existence, and we evolved from these different species. To compare them with apes is an ignorant ploy attempting to disillusion those unwilling to bother to find out otherwise.

      You have a great day too.
  • Twango, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4Big Religion and the State have been walking hand-in-hand for *thousands* of years. If you need to, check it out.

    Once that's clear, it's easier to understand that meddlesome zealots are the result of prodding from the leadership of SOME churches to go out and do the bidding of the institution. They're about ideas, not about the experiences that inform and create genuine spiritual impulses.

    It's Orgs that create the pressure ... they have every Sunday to exhort the sheep. When madmen like Falwell can thrive and prosper for decades, you can be sure they're sweethearts with The Man.

  • Vincep1974, on 10/12/2007, -36/+13Lets all become Atheist Socialists like Europe and be overrun by Muslims within 50 years like them.

    Yep that's a good idea.

    Atheists owe their pleasant existance to the Bible and Protestant Reformation and they should never forget it.
    • Kratisto, on 10/12/2007, -9/+19I'm an Atheist, which means the likelihood of my totalitarian dictatorship of pure evil being overrun by any religious group is absolute zero. Your comment is ironic, ignorant, and grossly generalizing.

      Aside from that, I only support socialism in theory - It doesn't work in real life (wouldn't it be nice?).
    • Badger80, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9@vincep1974 what the ***** are you talking about
    • Vincep1974, on 10/12/2007, -6/+7kratisto: it was the principles of private relationship between the individual and God that was rediscovered with the invention of the printing press. It allowed the yoke of Catholicism to be lifted and the seperation of clergy from the state . It allowed for the "to each his own" mentality to take shape which eventually was extended to include those for whom no religion at all was thier own.

      No, I'm not ignorant. I can think.
    • Vincep1974, on 10/12/2007, -10/+6badger: are you not aware that not a single European country has a positive fertility rate? That without massive Muslim immigration, every euro-nation is going to face profound population / economic / culture decline?
    • Badger80, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6Ireland has a positive fertility rate
    • Vincep1974, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6Ireland's rate is below 2.1. It is negative

      http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator_detail.cfm?IndicatorID=138&Country=IE

    • Vincep1974, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5jimmy: ask your Muslim friends if they'll show around in Mecca.
    • Vincep1974, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5Oh, that's right Jimmy... Kuffars aren't allowed to go anywhere near the entire city of Mecca. No infidels allowed!
    • Vincep1974, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Here's a link showing a Highway sign in Saudi Arabia saying only Muslims allowed.

      http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1508010196081585367OLgxSt
    • Vincep1974, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4jimmygoon:

      I didn't mention one thing about myself. I only made the historical case that the West's Christian culture is the culture which gave rise to the tolerance of atheists. Atheists shouldn't be so arrogant as to loose sight of that, especially as Europe slides under the dominance of Islam.

      Because you're so irrational, I have to conclude you're a teenager who thinks indigination is an argument.
    • Ao21, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9As Europe slides under the domination of Islam? Do you know anything about European politics at all? That's not actually possible in most eu countrys, we dont really have two party systems, they don't really work that well. and European culture has survived the last 7000 years, with a population varying between 10,000 and 455,000 people, I'm sure we'll cope.
      Not to mention your birth/death rate information was based on probability stat's from 1998, which are flawed in the first place since up until 1996 most European country's were all still running campaigns to cut birth rates down since they were unsustainable, kinda like chinas one child per family laws only less strict, they're all pretty much gone now but they've all slowly stabilised birth/death rates in the ten main EU country's, and theres insane birth rates in the new EU countries.
      Oh and atheisms first defined origins come from Ancient Greece, not to mention how long it could have been in existence before it was defined in 5BC, atheism, as in the rejection of gods, existed long before modern Christianity and quite possibly before ancient christianity, never mind the printing press .
    • Thex1138, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Vinc you forgot the well document [by the priests etc,. themselves] slayings of non-believers and 'sinners' by the church and the Christians of non-christians or the onces that did not convert to Christianity in Europe a few hundred years ago..or is that part of history blocked out of your mind? or perhaps you didn't know that..?
    • digitaldarkage, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15"Atheists owe their pleasant existence to the Bible and Protestant Reformation and they should never forget it. "
      That is the funniest thing I have read in quite a while. The idea that those who do not believe were somehow created by a religion that has only existed for 2000 odd years and an offshoot of said religion that was created less than 500 years ago is amazing to me. I bet you have the whole flawed logic thing down. Are you Pro-Life? Pro War? Love your neighbor? Attack the middle east? Hate the gays? Love a man above all else? I would love to hear your response... Looking at your past diggs I can pretty much tell you are phobic of anything middle eastern. And for that, I hand you the hypocrite of the day award.
    • xutopia, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15"Lets all become Atheist Socialists like Europe and be overrun by Muslims within 50 years like them."

      Have you ever stepped out of your own country? Have you ever lived in Europe?
    • Brewno, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4@vincep
      I like the way that in one reply tree you are so desperate to recognize the differences between Christians (Yoke of Catholicism etc.) but yet somehow group all Muslims together.
      He is a Muslim thus must share the same beliefs as Saudi Arabia! etc.
      I have plenty of Muslim friends, none of which are nearly as ignorant, closed-minded or judgmental as yourself and to be frank I find your continued insistence that we are under invasion to be decidedly xenophobic; also your points about us living in an environment where there is tolerance of atheism is wonderful, but completely unrelated to Christianity, and I can't believe you think that it is related to Christianity, so you must be implying that it's White Europeans we should be 'thankful' to and that this somehow means we shouldn't mix races or religions. This is nothing short of racism.
  • syriusblack, on 10/12/2007, -16/+17"IS DIGG TO DAMN ANTI-RELIGIOUS?"

    I mean I know people have there right to hate on whatever they chose, but Digg is so very anti-religious...... and from a religious diggers perspective......that just sucks. I don't mind a few stories a month that are anti-Cristian, but come on!... Digg gets like 10-20 a month easy that make it to the front page.

    Its getting old, we get it already, your not religious, stop diggin all the damn anti-religion stories. I mean is it that big of a BUG up your ass that you gotta dig every freaking pile of crap report about religion being bad, or a pastor doing stupid *****, or what not?

    /end rant
    /digg down x 100
    • synystar, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6I'd consider myself to be religious although I don't associate myself with any organized religion. From my perspective, diggers tend to beat the crap out of anti-religious comments... it really depends on the story but I've seen perfectly valid statements against Christianity dugg down to hell.
    • ltmon, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13My take on your question:

      1. The section of society that socialises on the internet as a whole is less religious than general society, I don't know why. Digg is reflecting that.
      2. Diggers probably often feel the same in real life that you are feeling here - pro-religious bias abounds throughout American society from the very low key ("god bless you!") to the overt and insulting. Christians are given a very special place in society, that often leave non-christians feeling a little second class. Having a place like Digg where the tables can be turned is very satisfying in this way.
    • JEmerson, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8I've seen links here about stupid people of all groups, democrats, republicans, americans, germans, christians, and all the other flavours that humans come in. Does digg have a bias against anyone it allows on the front page with negative implications, or is it just that Christianity is overun by a higher percentage of stupid than most other high profile social groups?
    • dmax4usa, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Leave them alone. They're just insecure.
    • xutopia, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6"I mean I know people have there right to hate on whatever they chose, but Digg is so very anti-religious...... and from a religious diggers perspective......that just sucks. I don't mind a few stories a month that are anti-Cristian, but come on!... Digg gets like 10-20 a month easy that make it to the front page. "

      The story posted is not anti-Christian. The panelists are of diverse and many are religious. Check the first on the list. A few others discuss their points with a pro-religion stance. Why do you automatically assume that an honest discussion on the subject of religion is automatically anti-religious?

      "Its getting old, we get it already, your not religious, stop diggin all the damn anti-religion stories. I mean is it that big of a BUG up your ass that you gotta dig every freaking pile of crap report about religion being bad, or a pastor doing stupid *****, or what not?"

      Religious people give me pamphlets, knock on my door to share with me what they've "learned" from the word of God so that I can be as happy (or unhappy) as they are. I happen to believe that Jesus didn't exist, or if he did he wasn't any more special than Rael is(google him... and the keyword clonaid). As an Atheist I am convinced that religious people are thought to categories things into two distinct categories. Althgouh there are numerous names for it usually fits within the Good or Bad(TM) dogma. Told since they are small to believe this black and white view of the world they are unable to comprehend that some things might be wrong with their religion because anyone who dares criticize it must be of the Bad(TM) denomination.

      Maybe Atheists are the Good(TM) guys. Maybe they'd like to share their happiness with the world, an happiness that doesn't require myths or promises of eternal life. Imagine a world where people live their lives to the fullest, where morals evolve constantly rather than decay, where reason replaces fear. Atheists want this for all humanity because they are compassionate and humanists at heart. We don't want to hurt your Good(TM) religion. We just want to replace your Bad(TM) myths with a better model for understanding and living in this world.
    • scheper, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I agree.

      If you compare Digg to Slashdot, Slashdot is much more diverse and respectful of other people's faith and beliefs. On digg, most religion bashers are behaving just like they claim the religious behave.

      @xutopia

      The article might not be anti-Christian, the summary certainly is, and serves no other purpose than to incite FUD and intolerance.
    • nonchai, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Hey - Digg is an international community. Feel free to post your born again fundamentalist links here. no one is stopping you. But you will have to live with the fact that there are plenty of english speking diggers inside and outside the USA that happen not to see things the way of you FOX news reading holier than thou religious types.

      If you dont like the fact that diggers digg you down - why not go back to you church. Back to a bunch of people who all agree with you and will back you up in your delusions.

      The world outside of your cosy middle american baby jeesus brigade happens to see through the false deceptions of your religiosity. Get over it.

    • xutopia, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Sheffer "The article might not be anti-Christian, the summary certainly is, and serves no other purpose than to incite FUD and intolerance."

      What are you talking about? Read the summary again:

      "Panelists in a recent debate were tasked with answering that question. Rev. Barry Lynn argued FOR the motion, saying: "What is a damned religion? Damned religion is so weak-willed and unsure of its own capacity to persuade others...that it seeks the blessing and aid of government. This is a corruption both of faith and of constitutional democracy."
    • OriginalSyntax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0@syriusblack,
      maybe if the religious freaks weren't trying to influence legislation so much people wouldn't be bitching about it as much as they are. You don't find it unsettling that a born-again Christian (lets face it the worst of the whole lot of Christians) is in such a high position of power. What makes it worse is that the idiot assholes who voted for the ***** twice, probably did so because they thought they would see the country "go back to it's religious roots" ha, Balls! I can always tell who those people are, they call into conservative talk radio shows with there wittle christian feelings hurt cause' Bush isn't sending back all the illegal immigrants "I voted for him thinking he would do what I wanted, now I feel betrayed!" If that isn't a testament to how naive religious people are I don't know what is Oh, and by "the pastor doing some stupid *****" were you referring to the pedophiles running rampant in the catholic church? Sounds like u forgot the specifics of "some stupid *****"
  • xSEED, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2hell yes.
  • umpatel, on 10/12/2007, -4/+0Yes, religious about money
    • LiterateWolf, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Atheism is only about money. Free trade, free markets, and outsourcing all to "save" money. Even morality stem from money for atheists I know.
    • imperium2000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Great...now you're trying to equate atheism with capitalism. What's your solution, a sociolist theocracy?
  • scratt, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Votes: YES.

    But fully expects Bush Jnr, and Snr, and all their CIA chums to alter my vote to read NO online.
    (It's a shame Digg is based in the US, and the US has control of the internet, otherwise and we might be able to see the truth!)
  • BJanis, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3YES. People have forgotten that religions are humanities attempt at explaining the unexplainable. It's become a horrible nightmare that I hope we wake up from soon. Religion is a useful focusing technique, but THAT IS ALL. It's not reality. This killing over God has been going on WAY TOO LONG. It's idiotic. (I made two comments by accident)
  • tikigod311, on 10/12/2007, -14/+10digg is so predictable when it come to religion, always a handful of insightful comments along with a boatload of closed minded comments from religion hating people. "rampant christian fundamentalism" is somehow equated with insane islamic fundamentalists.

    how open minded of you, and wow, what an amazingly generic elitist response.



    • gtapro91, on 10/12/2007, -8/+4couldnt have said it better
    • javip, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6What's your point?
      The article is about America being too religious, the answer is yes, end of story.
  • Helenbo, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4The question should be:

    "Is America too hypocritical in their religious experience?"

    (I'm just sayin')

    American christ-cons have given true Christians around the world a bad name.
  • analyze, on 10/12/2007, -13/+6I have some questions for NPRs reporting:
    1. Is NPR too damn liberal? Yes.
    2. Is NPR a biased piece of crap? Yes.
    3. Should NPR stand for Negative Press of Religion? Yes.
  • think4once, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3agreed, "syriusblack"... I think there wouldn't be such a violent reaction to anything Christian if it didn't have some merit...I think so many people are so quick to ***** on christianity just because theres some things that are called true. everyone makes mistakes, but as soon as its a christian, everyone jumps on them and kicks them for the rest of their life, and uses it as an excuse to give God the finger. as for the topic, I think atheism is the new religion that the state is coupling with and I say its just as destructive in some ways. wheres the religious freedom going to go? down the drain.
  • whitehornmatt, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Yes.
  • dle5, on 10/12/2007, -12/+7Frankly, I'm surprised athiests haven't crashed planes into buildings yet, considering their hostility towards anyone with faith. They must be ***** the Muslims thought of it first.
    • javip, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16Atheists hostility is an intellectual one.
      I'll speak only for myself, but as an atheist, I'm smart enough to realize that violence accomplishes nothing.
    • Ninja337, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Atheists don't have the correct environment to do what poor Muslims do. Your typical planebomber is poor and doesn't have much to live for in their eyes, and has a powerful imam or Osama-type to lead them. Atheists are sometimes upper middle class or rich, and also liberal, so they don't have any patriarch to speak of.
    • think4once, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5I'm not entirely sure about how valid it is that atheist stances are so intellectual. It always seems to me that the "why" of atheism comes down to a bad personal experience with the church or else some kind of disappointment with God, or else they don't want to be bothered with "religion". It looks like often its based on emotions, that they don't "feel" god anymore, or never have, so they decide to believe no such person/entity exists. Then afterward they find other reasons - ie. Darwin, psychology. these guys all start off from some kind of biased platform of atheism and then atheists use it as an argument and fight for it with their lives. its kind of circular that way. by the way, I think psychology and science (etc.) are all great in and of themselves, but people forget that these things are simply physical or mental observation of effects. causes are foggier, all we have are theories. my theory is God, and atheist tries to say that their theory of no God is solid proof. think about it.
  • ButterBuddha, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Its all a matter of perception....I mean, all the people in the media who are labeled as "religious" are often the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, or Jihadist....you know, assholes......but since most Americans are at least spiritual in someway, its hard to define what is a tolerable amount of religiosity. What annoys me the most are those Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell whose social commentary is merely stating the obvious, it's delivered in such a know-it-all asshole way...who cares??

    The constant struggle between the crazy fundamentalists and the non-religious creates a nice, broad, middle ground...I agree with the first speaker in that the religious right is a political movement...rather than a religious movement...an organization that seeks to control government and therefore controlling where tax dollars are funneled....America is NOT religious enough...I feel that too many of us are too weak spiritually to stand up to the few assholes who hijacked a church to do some social climbing.....
  • analyze, on 10/12/2007, -15/+5According to the 2001 World Almanac, Atheists number 1.6 million (0.5%) in North America. The Graduate Center of the City University of New York research estimate that 902,000 or 0.4% of Americans are atheists. Atheists are nothing more than a tiny uncourteous gnat buzzing for attention. They have not earned the numbers nor the respect to be worthy of our recognition. Let the gnats buzz.
    • Ninja337, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6That's a very hard statistic to produce. There are tons of people who would tell you some religion they belong to, but at the same time many of the same people would proclaim to not believe in god.
    • javip, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9I'm curious, why do you feel so threatened by this tiny insignificant minority?
      And don't say you don't, you've gone to the trouble of making several comments on this article alone, including some research with regards to statistics.

      PS: It's 2007 not 2001
    • dle5, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3No one is threatened by them per se. It's just they are so loud and hateful and they plaster sites like digg and youtube with such.
    • Yashu, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6"Atheists number 1.6 million (0.5%) in North America."

      You know...if less money was spent on warmongering and more on research, education, arts... 1.6 million could eventually be the number of christians.
    • dle5, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3Yeah, with everyone else being Muslim by law. Good idea!
    • imperium2000, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Wrong and outdated stats. Most newer polls show that US non-religious(specifically Atheist, agnostic and non-religious) number approx. 9-12% of the US population.

      One of the newer one is the Harris Poll http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=408
    • analyze, on 10/12/2007, -4/+0I see the gnats are buzzing above. There is an old Roman saying, "He who angers me, conquers me." To you atheists, consider yourself conquered!
  • Jakerius, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2YES! Francois.
  • charlie55, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2this panel discussion doesnt have anyone worth listening to.
  • tikigod311, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1to the people up top mentioning abortion.... please take this topic outside the realm of religion and argue it on the basis of logic. your argument is MUCH stronger when you do not mention God.
    • LiterateWolf, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I thought atheists considered logic to be a god considering how it never fails and can explain everything much like the Christian fundies think of the Bible.
    • imperium2000, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Literatewolf: You are a moron. God by its definition is 'supernatural' ie 'beyond nature'.
  • tacojohn48, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Christianity is too religious. Christianity isn't about how well you can follow the rules; in fact part of becoming a Christian is admitting that the rules can't be kept. Christians shouldn't be self-righteous, as our righteousness is like filthy rags. I have never seen attacking people's belief as an effective means to convert them. Here is the important thing though, don't tell someone about your faith in Christ until they can see it in the way you live your life. Be known by your fruit. Anyway, I need to go to bed now; so I can get up in time for church in the morning. If you are up that early feel welcome to come as you are.
  • republick, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2If you dont believe there is a hell then you obvoiusly have had an easy life.
  • Ninja337, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I don't see why anyone should have problems with religion. Martin Luther King was a baptist minister (but he was also a socialist and on the wrong side during the cold war, so I don't like him that much), and Lucretia Mott was a Quaker.
  • SquareOne, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11The irony: Early Americans came to America to escape religious intolerance....You do the rest...
    • Misesean, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7/Some/ early colonists came to America to "escape" intolerance - and proceeded to institute really amazing levels of intolerance themselves; far worse than anything that ever existed in Britain. "You do the rest."
  • fooboarder, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4In the years to come the atrocities committed, presently and throughout history, in the name of religion will be viewed the way the atrocities of slavery are viewed now. A mindset no longer justified.
  • futuretheory, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2"Is America Too Damn Religious?"

    Yes. Of course, this will be rectified when great Chuthlu rises again.
    • totorototoro, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2I for one will welcome our lovecraftian overlords.
  • uglyowl, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2When the government tries to say it is wrong to play poker online because it is wrong then yes it is too religious.
  • missingdigits, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5Organized religions are nothing more than very succesful cults.
  • erkokite, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5"Citizens of religious commitment are among the most enthusiastic supporters of a secular government."

    No.
  • OriginalSyntax, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4The fact that people are questioning whether the country is too religious should answer the question...
    I think religion serves as an option to those who can't admit that they in fact DON'T know how life began or what happens once life is over. This is why Religious fanatics have an answer for everything, even if nobody else does. Religions are compilations of beliefs that vary according to geographic location, a specific culture, history, etc. Beliefs within religious sects change over time, just like everything else. Take Christianity for example, the number of evangelical christians has grown considerably in the past few years. Some converts are former Catholics who were turned off by certain things within the Catholic religion (namely the boredom factor). So they try a new church, one where churchgoers headbang to Christian rock, and enjoy it. As a result, they become closer to God and more enthusiastic about Jesus. The problem with this is that people seem to become more excited about their faith when it's the most convienent to them. What a coincidence that the most "fun" mass services are the ones pushing a political agenda. Personal beliefs are good when they remain personal, not when they are assumed to serve the greater good. Whats good for one group of idiots isn't always good for the other, thats why you have fundamentalist "Christians" and "Islamo-fascists" facing off. Ironically enough it's not over anything that seems remotely religious.
  • metaknite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind.
    -- Thomas Jefferson, to Moses Robinson, 1801, ME 10:237
    • AniceAtheist, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5Those "rags" are myriad and one is the divinity of Jesus.
  • Helenbo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Jah Pastafari shall meet all our needs through Ramen It's most high sustainer.

    It's cheaper by the dozen, so tell a friend.
  • mightyQuin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1yes!
  • xSEED, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6the us is too fat and too religious.
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