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I am not a state secret

latimes.com — Having just lost in court, a CIA kidnap victim asks why the U.S. won't admit its error.

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  • smackywentz, on 10/12/2007, -40/+312Buried... for National Security reasons
    • Battleloser, on 10/12/2007, -34/+9Oh come on, buddies joke made me laugh.
    • nreynolds, on 10/12/2007, -29/+9I am a state secret, but I really shouldn't have told you.
    • macaddct1984, on 10/12/2007, -6/+54For more info:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_El-Masri

      Not to be confused with:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_al-Masri

      And the article on "extraordinary rendition" is just frightening
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
    • InetRoadkill, on 10/12/2007, -9/+156"National security" has become the contemporary version of a royal Carte Blanche. There is no question that it's being massively abused. I don't understand why the courts are allowing such a flagrant violation of constitutional and international law to be swept under the rug so easily by simply uttering the magic words "national security". I guess Saddam should have claimed "national security" for his abuses.

      A tyrant is a tyrant no matter what flag he wraps himself in. Impeach the chimp.
    • Bamont, on 10/12/2007, -96/+3I'm certainly NOT advocating what was done to him, especially when they had no evidence backing up their claim - but, give me a break.

      "I'm deeply disappointed to find that this same legal system denies me the chance to fully present my case."

      You aren't American, you're German, of course they aren't going to give you the ability to fight your case here. Yes, it sucks - yes, you should probably get some reprimand since this will probably stick with you forever, but give me a ***** break - who do you want to suffer? Our intelligence agency? Ain't gonna happen - and for this guy to think he's more important than the CIA or NSA, he's sadly mistaken.
    • illegalcortex, on 10/12/2007, -2/+99@Bamont

      When a human being is not considered more "important" than a federal agency, we are living in troubling times.
    • dimension128, on 10/12/2007, -5/+62@Bamont
      ""and for this guy to think he's more important than the CIA or NSA, he's sadly mistaken.""
      This guy(2) -IS- more important than the CIA,NSA,BOP,DMV,CCR,USPTO or any other branch of government(1).
      I(2) am more important than government(2).
      You(2) are more important than government(2).

      (1) Government: A system that exists to serve the people who built it.
      (2) A human: One who equally is deserving of all universally accepted truths relating to human rights, morals, and dignity.
    • dimension128, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18Of course I meant to put (1) instead of (2) after the last couple instances of the word government in the above comment.
    • Zippo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+56You, when I read ***** like this, I'm really not that surprised that so many people around the world dislike the US. With the American government going around and trampling around in foreign countries - completely ignoring human rights without any repercussion, it's no wonder the Arabs are so ***** pissed off.
      I mean it's bad enough to enter a country you don't belong in, and then kidnap a terror suspect. But it's another thing altogether when you enter a country you don't belong in, kidnap an innocent man, torture him, leave him to rot, and then eventually free him without so much as a "sorry".
      If a German organization entered the US, kidnapped an innocent American, tortured the ***** out of him, and then eventually let him go, you can bet your ass it'd be a different story.
      I'd love to think that all this ***** will be at least somewhat resolved after 2008, but that's probably wishful thinking.
    • smokinjuan, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Zippo, I think this problem will be resolved before 2008 and I believe that many Americans will rise up and assist the country or allied countries who "resolve" the problem.
    • R34C7, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18@wargalas

      What we do have to realize that the term terrorist can also apply to just about anyone in war. For example, immediately prior to the civil war and during it there were "terrorists" who would attack personal properties and free slaves as well as destroy boats that were used in their transport. It is also possible that the underground railroad would have been considered terrorist action.

      The term is a very subjective one and its use is either decided by the victor in historical writing or the individual that you speak to in current events. The people committing the acts of terrorism are considered heroes if they are victorious or go down in infamy if they fail.

      You can decide that terrorism is an act perpetrated as a cause of war against the innocent in an attempt to bring resolution, but this itself would define us as the most notorious terrorists of all. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Iraq war, etc. Again, it is subjective and history is written by the victors.
    • cawpin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+44Dugg because the guy wrote a very intelligent, well pointed story. He is not pissed at America. He just wants an apology. I hope he gets it.
    • Barryke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Another article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476_pf.html
    • kevinchai, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@inetRoadkill
      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney
    • skulljar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8A terrorist is typically defined in the military as one who uses violence to influence public opinion or policy. So where does this fit: sending aircraft carriers offshore a foreign nation? Riding down the street flagging people with your M2 50 cal? Kidnapping people in the middle of the night and holding them without due process?

      Also, saying that foreigners are not subject to American law directly contradicts the Decider in Chief's statement a few days ago when he regurgitated the following quote: "...as we work to advance the cause of freedom around the world, we remember that the father of our country believed that the freedoms we secured in our revolution were not meant for Americans alone." Lets hope the American way of life is not kidnapping people. I'd rather not propagate that.
    • otheruser, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

      ~George Orwell
    • dvfreelancer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6"Impeach the chimp."

      Cheney first, then the chimp.
    • xchino, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@Bamont
      You have a seriously uneducated view of our rights. Our rights are not defined and given to us "as Americans", they are inalienable human rights that we recognize every person deserves. A German man in U.S. custody reserves all the rights of a US citizen, including the right to a fair and speedy trial and access to legal counsel if one can not otherwise be obtained. They pulled the same ***** on Kevin Mitnick, and he was an American. The problem is this country at some point became full of pussies and cowards, who will always give up their rights for a false sense of security, and expect everyone else to do so. This mentality is treasonous, and these people should be summarily executed for subverting (or perverting) the ideals our country was founded upon.
    • schroeder, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@Bamont
      "You aren't American, you're German, of course they aren't going to give you the ability to fight your case here. Yes, it sucks - yes, you should probably get some reprimand since this will probably stick with you forever, but give me a ***** break - who do you want to suffer? Our intelligence agency? Ain't gonna happen - and for this guy to think he's more important than the CIA or NSA, he's sadly mistaken."

      If you think the American government feels it can just grab someone they "think" might be a terrorist and torture them secretly and without trial then send them back with no repercussion, then you sir have no right calling yourself an American. What would you say if China or North Korea did something like this to an American? This man should have every right to fight his case here and possibly make the organizations accountable for their actions and keep this from happening again.
    • RoyHobbs, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@smackywentz (first post)

      Brilliant!
  • jmontes, on 10/12/2007, -9/+159These secret national security laws make me embarrassed to be an American. Our founding fathers must be spinning in their graves.
    • nimski, on 10/12/2007, -11/+52In the land of the free and the home of the brave...
    • Feign, on 10/12/2007, -45/+12Well maybe you should look up some more info on those founding fathers. American history is screened for Americans.
      Not that these problems are completely isolated to America, they are the easiest target for everyone right now, though hard to see how they dont deserve it.

      Long live Canada.



    • keyboardduder, on 10/12/2007, -12/+45National security is a joke. We are pissing off more people than we are helping. Everyone hates us and terrorists dont exist. They dont want to "fear people into submission". They are religous zealots that shouldnt be helped, supported, or sympathised for. The American culture is "de-sensitized" by the popular media, everyone watches news and listens to their message, filtered to fear the american culture into ignorant sumbission. Fox news is a perfect example of the abuse of the spoken word, making good things look bad and filtering positive opinions. ***** the bush administration and ***** the people who let themselves be hypnotized by horrible people like cavuto and bill o reilly. Get of your ass and sign a petition. I do all the time!
    • john570, on 10/12/2007, -46/+15How do we know what this guy is saying actually happened?
    • cornswalled, on 10/12/2007, -95/+8@jmontes

      If you're so shamed, then leave. I recommend you go to Iran and see what they realty think of Americans.

      @john570

      It didn't. He's a liar and a fraud. That's why this was thrown out of court. The "National Security" angle was cooked up to get publicity. The jury's still out on if he's a shill for someone else (Iran?) or whipping up a media frenzy before trying to sell a book.
    • detlev409, on 10/12/2007, -8/+44Cite your source Cornswalled, or be rightly labeled as a shill yourself.
    • ldkronos, on 10/12/2007, -2/+38@john570:

      FTA: "The U.S. government does not deny that I was wrongfully kidnapped."
      If it weren't true, I would imagine they would deny doing it.

      In addition, we sent an ambassador to Germany to inform them that we had done so, and to request Germany's assistance in covering it up.
      http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/plea-to-cover-up-wrongful-arrest/2005/12/04/1133631146789.html
    • Wargalas, on 10/12/2007, -26/+12Terrorists don't exist? What ***** planet are you from?
    • bigfatsmurf, on 10/12/2007, -3/+31@John570

      Because the American Government HAVE acknowledged the fact that he was grabbed by "friends" of the US based on incorrect judgment. This has also happened to several hundreds of other people. Remember your dear Canadian "terrorist"? America have yet to take him off that stupid list of yours, but Canada have issued an apology instead. Why? Because they are not blind like many of you. Check out a movie called Road to Guantanamo to see how many cases of incorrect judgment there are out there. Also check out this documentary by a British Lawyer about what he found out regarding the ways America treat people around the world, all in the name of "Justice". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh_n4Wx1NwE

      @cornswalled

      I hope you one day find yourself in a situation similar to this so that we may say that whatever hopefully happens to you in fact did not occur. That would warm my little heart.

    • rmad1949, on 10/12/2007, -17/+3The Founders spinning in their graves? Obviously you have no idea who these men were.
    • jetsetgo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I hear we've already turned their coffins vertical, we're using their momentum to drill for more oil.
    • dvfreelancer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"In the land of the free and the home of the brave..."

      We're going to have to do a Prince and start calling ourselves "the nation formerly known as the land of the free".
    • IMustBeEmo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6...with liberty and justice for rich straight white Christians.
  • khimscho, on 10/12/2007, -14/+5Holy smokes!
  • GawtMilk, on 10/12/2007, -7/+37"IN NOVEMBER, I traveled to America for the first time"

    Another problem that could've been avoided if America stopped playing world police. Why did they feel the need to do all this to him, if he'd never been to America before / has no American passport / wasn't pretending to be American?
    • RobN, on 10/12/2007, -18/+5Because Americans have never been killed anywhere else in the world but on US soil. No Americans were killed in the attack on the USS Cole (which was at least a military target). No Americans were killed in the London subway bombings. And so on.

      You apparently missed the key piece, though -- this was apparently a case of mistaken identity. So it doesn't matter where this guy had or hadn't gone, but where the guy they thought he was had or hadn't gone. Ideally the government detects mistakes a lot earlier and nothing like this ever happens, and that apparently didn't happen here. But while this guy may not be a national security risk, providing details of what the government knew about the guy they thought he was, when they knew them, and how they learned about them -- which would clearly be part of any such lawsuit -- may very well put people's lives at risk. If information came from a field agent that the guy they had was the wrong guy because they just had a meeting with the right guy, then a trial would expose that -- the world would know who that agent was, or at least they'd learn enough details that the bad guys could figure out who it was. The very person who won his freedom might be put at risk.

      Not that I know any specifics about this case to know what might be true or false...but then, neither does anybody else, really.
  • drunkenirish, on 10/12/2007, -5/+91It makes me ashamed to be an American that even though the CIA agents involved realized they were wrong, they just dump the guy onto a hill in the middle of Albania? At least have some common decency to bring him back to his home country. The guy was innocent, after all!
  • inspecality, on 10/12/2007, -32/+89If America admits it's wrong, the terrorists win.
    • keyboardduder, on 10/12/2007, -68/+9Dumbest thing ive ever heard, you really listen to what TV tells you dont you?
    • inspecality, on 10/12/2007, -11/+67It was obviously sarcasm. Jesus what has happened to Digg.
    • jftitan, on 10/12/2007, -16/+7sarcasm....
    • ohgr, on 10/12/2007, -22/+5Where has this person been living? America Never Admits Wrongs
    • geerolla, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2inspecialty,

      Obviously, because we can all so easily detect sarcastic inflection from reading words off a computer screen.
    • oreilco, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0sarcasm ? Is it sarcasm when agents of the government say it too ?
  • rambleon, on 10/12/2007, -65/+3They should have just killed him, that way I wouldn't have to suffer his excessive complaining.
  • JonLatane, on 10/12/2007, -7/+24I actually shed a tear reading this. His last paragraph is the first thing in a long time that's made me truly proud to be an American.
    • jftitan, on 10/12/2007, -6/+31America as a population is truly American. However, our government is not American. The American government has lost touch with its population, only because the people involved, are greedy, retards, that cannot comprehend that the ideas and policies they create are for the will of their corporate masters.

      Every day we see more legislation created to help big business make more money, all the while the American population is starving, getting below adequate education, and dying due to a failing medical health system.

      So why don't we have the honest American population standing up to its own government, that we Elected to (mis)represent us? I don't know. But I for one, would love to enact a new political representation system that has sand belting as a form of punishment to all politicians that either ***** up horribly, or wont admit to wrong doing, when the majority of the American People know, have proof of the mistakes.

      Also, the best politician is the one that doesn't want to be one.
    • bobzibub, on 10/12/2007, -8/+8@jftitan, your answer was in your question.
      If Americans don't take *ownership* of their *own* government, then who will? Who can?

      It *is* your government. Disavowing ownership is absolving responisbility.


    • chhuparustam, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2blah
    • Hellmark, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11I deal with a lot of people from other countries, and I am frequently having to tell them that the US government isnt the same as the US citizens. I don't know how often it is that people are pissed off and upset with me for things the US government has done, when the majority of the citizens do not agree.

      @bobzibub - At each election, we try to vote in the people that seem best to us, but most of the time it just ends up being more of the same, even when we are trying to avoid that entirely. What are we to do if the options before us aren't any good, especially if they end up being completely different than how they portrayed themselves?
    • bobzibub, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@Hellmark;
      I appreciate your frustration. You are right in that it is sloppy thinking to blame people for their government's actions. I live in the US and I see it/feel it too.
      But I just don't want people to feel they can't do anything and so wash their hands and give up hope, making a problem have zero probability of getting solved. Americans have a heck of a lot more control over their government than, say, Iranians do. So Organize. Pressure those politicians. Hold their feet to the fire. If Americans do that (and increasingly they are) people around the world will recognize the difference. That is not clearly the case with apathy.

    • kavau, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@jftitan, if America as a population were truly American, they would not have elected this government of pseudo-totalitarian cowards. They would not have given Bush another four years in office, after he had already been cutting away at freedom for four years.
      If America as a population were truly American, people would have revolted already, Bush and Cheney would have been impeached a long time ago.
      Unfortunately the "truly American" people seem to be in the minority these days...
    • kavau, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0@Hellmark, here is a suggestion: don't re-elect them!
    • Hellmark, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Problem is, the next guy ends up being just as bad as they guy that was voted out. Damned if you do, damned if you don't
  • coolkatz321, on 10/12/2007, -9/+35You can certainly add my name to that incredibly long list of embarrassed Americans... we run around touting ourselves as a free nation, yet all we do is demonstrate intolerance and bigotry. The Clinton years were so much peace and prosperity, and then we ran into this ballsack running the country now. Well, less than a year to go...
    • LowRentDiggs, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23Less than 2 years you mean :~( Man, he has so much time to ***** things up even worse.
    • bolerobell, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17I'm not going to say that I am embarassed to be an American, but I am certainly disappointed in my fellow citizens. In a democracy, the People get the government they deserve. In recent decades, Americans have grown lazy and aren't willing to do the important research and discussion of their political leaders during elections. That's how we ended up where we are. Anyone, in 2000, who didn't know exactly what George W. Bush would do, given his history and political philosophy, wasn't being honest with themselves.
    • BGFeltenink, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8He didn't win the the 2000 election... so no, it isn't our problem. Certainly not mine, I voted correctly. What else do you expect me to do? Blow something up?
    • BGFeltenink, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Digg needs to give an extra couple minutes when someone presses update...

      Anyway, the problem in this country is blind-loyalty. The same ***** mentality that has people choosing one brand of car over another or the age old Pepsi vs. Coke debatable. You have two choices, Blue or Red. Ultimately they're both cola and made from the same ingreedients but there are some subtle differences. Red is rooted in tradition but has changed a few things for the worse (no more real sugar for instance) to save a few bucks. Blue is still fairly traditional but has changed a bit and has also decided that sugar isn't cost-effective, although they do keep *some* real sugar in there. Ultimately they're both going to charge you the most they can while lowering the cost for themselves. Finally, the only noticeable change either product generally makes is the design of the can...
    • Hellmark, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9@coolkatz321 - The Clinton years wasn't really any better. Stockmarket wasn't nearly as strong (my father's 401k tanked and lost 70% during the clinton administration), and Clinton stretched the military thin sending them off to various places like Kosovo, Mogadishu, etc. The US had its first attack on its own soil since Pearl Harbor (the original WTC bombing), plus other events like Oklahoma City, Columbine, etc. Clinton administration also pushed through many different regulations that effectively helped shut down my family's business. Also there was alot of stupid wasteful spending, like paying a French firm $4 billion to go through and destroy millions of sidearms and rounds of ammunition that the government had in its armories, including rare pieces that were being sought after by the Smithsonian (Did you know that Swinger, the sewing machine company, as well as other companies that normally had nothing to do with guns made a handful of 1911s during WWI? They did, and the Smithsonian was offering $10,000 a piece for them, but they were destroyed instead.). When my dad died in '99, his pension from 21 years in the Air Force was denied due to changes Clinton had made.

      Just because things suck now, doesn't mean things didn't suck then. Things just sucked for different reasons.
  • LowRentDiggs, on 10/12/2007, -6/+46They're doing this to American citizens also. There was a local guy who was accused of bombing the train in Madrid and he disappeared for a couple of weeks. The Spanish authorities told the FBI that the fingerprints didn't match weeks before they arrested him but they went through with the arrest and interrogation anyway. The gov't gave him $2 million last fall to shut him up.
  • mrmcbastard, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10The CIA should continue to go around the world picking up random people and holding them for no reason. Eventually they WILL find Osama Bin Laden.
  • cornswalled, on 10/12/2007, -71/+6I'm sorry, but his "tale" is complete and total bull. The US has not been arresting people, dressing them in diapers and then abandoning them on mountain tops.

    This man is a liar and a fraud.

    It's a damn good thing he lost in court. I wonder if the judge was ale to stop laughing when he read the verdict.
    • mrmcbastard, on 10/12/2007, -6/+29Hey, troll, what's up?
    • logicalnoise, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20yeah I know he's totally lying. I mean yeah he has evidence and confirmed witness accounts but really, I mean come on. No serious COME......ON.

      What's funny is your basically accusing this poor guy of Trolling on a national scale. How ironic.
  • iswasdoes, on 10/12/2007, -13/+3If the same thing had happened to a guy in a turban with an arabic name, I expect none of you would care, and assume that the capturing, beating, and torturing of an innocent man was 'the price we pay for freedom'.

    Disgusting story.
    • YourDoom123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The guy is a german arab (born to lebanese parents in kuwait), and we're still reacting...
    • Hellmark, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2The guy is of Arabic descent, and he does have an Arabic sounding name. I mean, "Khaled El-Masri" sure ain't german! He just is a German citizen. I don't think his citizenship is playing a role in what people are thinking about him.
  • andreascliment, on 10/12/2007, -16/+6Just to comment on the fact that you guys write "American citizen" and so on, you do realize that America includes quite a few more countries than the United States of America right? ;)
    • asaturn, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10true, but most people consider "american citizen" to mean a united states citizen, not a brazilian or mexican... or canadian...
    • an0nymous, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10And the millennium didn't begin in the year 2000, etc, etc. You are nitpicking- it is commonly used and understood colloquialism. Where you confused as to his meaning?
    • BGFeltenink, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2The millinium did start in 2000....

      0 + 2000 =2000.
    • peacebyanymeans, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3No, the first 1000 years of AD were year 1-1000, the second were 1001-2000, and this third millennium of AD started with 2001. But it's really not that big of a deal, just though I'd point it out.
    • Hellmark, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@BGFeltenink - By the Gregorian Calender, which is what we all use, the millenium starts in 2001. The Gregorian calendar does not have a year 0. Goes straight from 1BC to 1AD.
  • Dankoozy, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16The problem is their ego. The CIA think they are the best of the best, because they are American, because they are brought up that way

    The lil nerdy fellow sitting in the van listening to your conversation probably thinks that he really is doing a good job for his country. Over the next few years it will probably get better though.

    I went to America last month, at the airport there are two sections of security checks, one for America and one for every other country in the world. To go to america you need to get your fingerprint scanned, and look into a little logitech webcam connected to a Windows machine before they let you in. No other country does this, the Americans obviously think they are special. Even other countries that have been a victim of what people call "terrorism" don't do it.
    • joper90, on 10/12/2007, -11/+10correct.. the only thing they are best at is farking up this planet.
  • oxdeltaxo, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5The American legal and national security departments are just covering their asses, so that they don't look like they imprison torture or kill innocent people. But when they do this to someone who was in a foreign country it looks worse than if they did it in America (He wouldn't make it out alive in America). So they will continue to deny the fact that their screening process drags in innocent people so that they don't have to loosen their grip on the world as we know it.
  • BradC, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12While we may not know the entire story, if what this guy is saying is true then I feel very sorry for him and I am ashamed at the way our government has treated him.
    • Dankoozy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Looks like the CIA has employed people to dig me [and other people] down. to help fight the war on terr'ism.
    • oxdeltaxo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6@Dankoozy

      You may have a point there.
    • TheSheepMafia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5What saddens me is that I should be laughing harder at the idea of "digg spies". But with stories like this and people like cornswalled on digg, I'm suddenly not so sure...
  • NikoKun, on 10/12/2007, -7/+5huh, the us gov must think they are never wrong...
  • spyd3rweb, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6he didnt 'lose' he was thrown out.
  • walnoj, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9That was a fantastic article and extremely well-written.
  • fatmuffinman, on 10/12/2007, -22/+7Guess what, the CIA ***** up occassionally - sometimes its a mistaken rendition, sometimes a mistaken assassination and sometimes its not catching terrorists before they kill thousands of US citizens.

    If you wish to maintain an intelligence service, these are the compromises/costs you must bear. Nearly any other intelligence service in the world would have executed him without hesitation rather than release him.

    Certainly the idea that foreign nationals should be able to sue your intelligence service and have operatives and executives interrogated in court is laughably naive.

    Final thought, why was this guy, with a wife and six kids, taking a holiday on his own on the border of Serbia and Macedonia?? Seems a bit weird.


    • Dankoozy, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2can I say.. uh.. Collateral damage? LOL
    • graystar, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9I hope you become one of the costs.
    • Dankoozy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Maybe he wanted to get away from it all.

      With 6 screaming kids, and a wife who is loose as a goose after pushing them all out I would also want to go on holidays by myself
    • Darkestblaze, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14"Final thought, why was this guy, with a wife and six kids, taking a holiday on his own on the border of Serbia and Macedonia?? Seems a bit weird."

      Since when is that any of your business? Maybe he was trying to spend time *away* from his wife and six kids because of all of the possible stress in his life. No, no, you must be right, the only *possible* reason he could be going on vacation in another country was so that he could immediately hop on a plane to the U.S. of A. and blow up a building full of innocent people. Our intelligence agency was obviously right to imprison and torture this man then leave him on a mountain.

      /sarcasm
    • returnofmalv, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4They already used their "get out of responsibility free" card when they gave faulty intelligence that lead to the invasion of Iraq.
  • AnonPosting, on 10/12/2007, -40/+0Who gives a crap what happens to people who aren't American. That's the entire reason we're still in a war is because of the libocrats thinking non Americans have some value. What happened to guilty by association? If 10 unarmed Iraqis surround another Iraqi with a gun who is shooting at American soldiers, then they all deserve to die. Unfortunately you liberals with the mental disorder think the 10 unarmed are innocent, and thus we are still at war. The faster we kill them all, the sooner the war ends, plain and simple!

    God
    Country
    Family
    Friends
    Work

    In that order!
    • BGFeltenink, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14You put your COUNTRY before your FAMILY? You're a sick mother ***** sociopath.

      Insta-block for being a piece of ***** shill.
    • Phrag, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Funny. I thought the whole reason this war (and almost all wars) was happening was because the US and the USSR did not give any thought to the value and rights of the people who weren't their citizens. They armed everyone for a global proxy war that would determine who would be the largest empire post-WWII. They switched alliances and over threw governments when it suited them with total disreguard for the lives of the people who were not directly connected to them. The Taliban and Saddam used to fight for the US. Now we declare them evil and expect them not to attack us the way we trained them to attack others who opposed them. The US can be free of terrorism until it stops supporting, advocating and creating terrorism in its own interests.

      I suppose we could just say screw it and nuke everyone on earth that opposes the US empire but, seeing as how the resources of North and South America combined can not support the gluttonous life-style of the US, that might not be such a great idea.
    • dhollidator, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Holy ***** ***** you are a dirt bag. Please get out of my country. Blocked.
    • youngandwise, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2@AnonPosting

      Rofl at your little list...

      "God
      Country
      Family
      Friends
      Work

      In that order! "

      I think you should really rethink your little list... Mine looks more like this:

      Me
      Family
      Friends
      Country
      Work
      Science/"god"
  • Skizmo, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10Now you know why Europe does less and less together with America. We don't like this kind of ***** !
    • helinism, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Anyone who thinks these renditions go on without the knowledge and implicit consent of European Governments is naive in the extreme.
  • inurb, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12I'm surprised the CIA simply didn't kill the guy after they realized they had the wrong guy to begin with. I mean that was nice that they let him live. Usually a fubar like this gets cleaned up real fast. He can thank the CIA for not killing him. I doubt they would have lost any sleep over it.
    • Phrag, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11So we have gone from:
      "Give me liberty or give me death."
      to:
      "Screw your liberties and human rights. Just be happy we didn't kill you."

      The score is now:
      Terrorist - 1
      Democratic Ideals - 0
  • gllopc, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3"You can't handle the truth!"
  • ETHANOPIA, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6read a little bit on the prison he was detained in.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_salt_pit
    The Salt Pit - sounds like a very unpleasant place...

    Somtiems I wonder how John McCain can be involved in stuff like this, and know it goes, on given the amount of time he spent in a place not too unlike what we are now subjecting people to. Innocent people no less, at least he was actually a Prisoner of War, this guy was going on vacation!

  • blastus7, on 10/12/2007, -10/+3To all the liberal diggocrats:

    This program was started by the Clinton administration.
    • bigdavediode, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6blastus -- which used it very, very judiciously for a few people who they knew for a fact were absolutely terrorists. Bush and their Republican followers have expanded it to include anyone suspected. You see the difference?
  • MimsyMaple, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2And no Buttle/Tuttle remarks yet? DeNiro would be ashamed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_%28film%29
  • Conwaysb0718, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2are you an Ancient Chinese secret?
  • VirtualRichard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Have you seen the sterling to dollar exchange rate? Keep going Bush-ites: It'll soon be cheaper for me to get my groceries delivered from Oregon than my local supermarket.

    I get the feeling that the current administration don't care what happens to their own economy just so long as they can afford to spend a million or so of tax payers money locking up and torturing random innocent strangers.

    Oh-oh. When I hear a knock on my door this evening, I'm not the one for answering.
  • Tarnum, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Some comments on the Serbian/Macedonian Police: They are incredibly corrupted. If they stop a foreigner, they treat us like walking ATM. You have to grease some hands or they will create problems just because you refused to pay. They start checking everything on your car, while hinting about the high cost of living, etc. The requested bribe depends on how you look, is your car expensive, etc. That's how they work.
    May I speculate that in Khaled's case they decided that "his passport MAY BE fake", but if he will pay just a small ammount... that he refused.
  • ETHANOPIA, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Greysun, it is possible that a direct comparison might not be exactly accurate, but I don't think it has anything to with the severity of one torture prison or the other, this not about levels of severity, this is about right and wrong.

    Kidnapping and torturing of innocent CIVILIANS is wrong and IMHO nothing short of a war crime, and the US is guilty, and admits to it.
  • nikkkko, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@helinism
    The difference in Europe is that once complicity was uncovered, there was and continues to be action taken, principally by the European parliament, which has carried out a year long investigation and released a report accusing the various governments involved.
  • cyks, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1"Macedonian police who mistakenly believed that I was traveling on a false German passport."

    So it seems to me that, unless the CIA had international APBs on this guy, the CIA was not entirely at fault here.
    • apetrie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10The CIA are the ones involved who are refusing to admit any mistake was made. They are the ones who agreed to release him ONLY IF he would never tell anyone what happened. Does that sound the actions of an organization that feels they did nothing wrong? The truth is the American goverment feels they have the right to abuse anyone who is not an American without apology, and that they even have the right to abuse Americans, but when they are found out for that they at least are willing to apologize.

      Its cowardly to say the least to try and pass the blame.
  • Jowsley, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Maybe stopping the newspeak BS would be a good start...
    Here are two definitions:
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rendition
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=kidnaping

    Which one do you think is a better fit for this situation?
  • cyks, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I am not defending the CIA or blaiming anyone... just taking the account for what it is worth (which isn't easy given that the victim is suprisingly good with the details).

    In the event of a true security breach, I would expect nothing less...
  • Pfhreak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"Having just lost in court, a CIA kidnap victim asks why the U.S. won't admit its error.'

    Join the club: most Americans themselves are now asking why this administration insists that it is beyond reproach.
  • cyks, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2I don't deny that anything terrible or unforgivable has taken place.

    *but*

    It isn't kidnapping because the man was handed over to the CIA along with their preconceptions by a foreign authority.

    An apology from the CIA is the least of his concerns (unless I am wrong about this and it actually was a conspiracy on him personally...).

    In any case, what power would the CIA put into place so that this doesn't happen again?

  • elamr, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2why do you people HATE freedom!?

    j/k: we are *****.
  • cbreaker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5There's a motive in this - he says "All I want is for them to admit being wrong and apologize, and I can't live normally until that happens." What that really means is: "As soon as you ADMIT you did wrong, it opens the door for a lawsuit that would make winning the powerball look like spare change."

    Now, does he deserve that money? Perhaps. I think it's absolutely despicable that these things happen, and with OUR ***** government. I mean, what the *****? I don't care if you're not an American citizen- you should be treated with respect from our government. Does ethics not apply to someone just because they weren't born here? The people responsible should be sentenced to jail time, and this guy should receive compensation. Not lotto-bucks compensation, but a fair amount to be sure.
    • Phrag, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Ummmm k.... When I or some other organization has kidnapped you without reason, held you without charge, tortured you without mercy and left you mentally and physically scarred for life, please come back and give me your estimate on 'fair compensaion'.
    • cbreaker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2That's besides the point - the point is that they are suing not for an apology, but for cold hard cash. I'm not defending anyone here - I made that point quote clear in my post. He should be compensated, and thankfully it's not up to me to decide on how much. But you must admit - there must be a limit. While he was held captive and abused, he was also released and has sustained no physical injury. Made to wear diapers and punched a few times? I can think of a lot of people that have been handed a lot worse of a situation and they receive nothing in return except maybe the perpetrator's 5 year sentence. Does this make it right? Nope. Is life fair? Nada. Should this guy be given 200 million dollars of our tax money because of this? I don't think that's reasonable.
  • davewashere, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@ Hellmark:

    Your dad should have fired the guy who managed his portfolio during the Clinton years. The stock market did MUCH better during the Clinton administration. I don't have the exact figure, but I think the Dow more than double in value. That's even if you factor in the dot-com crash, which sort of straddled the Clinton-Bush years. If we had seen the same performance under Bush, the Dow would now be above 20,000.

    I'm guessing your dad has a lot of oil stocks. Even if that's true, the generalization about the stock market that you made is just plain ignorant.
    • eyediggit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@ Hellmark

      The reductions in the US Military began under Reagan, at the end of the war, once relations began to thaw with the USSR. It became apparent that maintaining a massive army was no longer necessary since the war between the two countries was never going to happen. Second, Bush put troops into Somalia toward the end of his term. The mess was then left in Clinton's hands, possibly as a nasty thank you gift for knocking him out of office. Got a link proving that Clinton being in office had anything to do with the first WTC attack, or the OKC federal building, or Columbine, or any other school shooting?

      I second davewashere's comment about the stock market. The market made historic gains during the last half of the 90s decade, until just after the time Clinton left office (not that the two things had anything to do with each other). I am curious as to what your dad's 401k was invested in. Sorry to hear about your dad's death and his pension getting denied, but pretty much all of our boats rose during that time (except for the oil industry).
    • Hellmark, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Went through multiple people handling it, and what made things so much worse was that when he died, we despite having a will and not having to mess with probate, it was fairly locked up for a while. And on the DJ, there is some evidence that it had peaked and started dropping before Clinton's term was over. DJI was close to 12,000, then started dropping in the last year Clinton was in office, for a low of 10,000 that year.

      @eyediggit - yeah, reduction of the military did begin under Reagan, but things were ramped up again somewhat under Bush Sr. due to Desert Storm. As far as the attacks, I brought them up, because the Clinton Admin really didn't do much to prevent attacks in general. Security never really changed, despite previous attacks, allowing more to happen.
  • elamr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@hellmark
    Does partisanship really matter when our government can arrest ANYONE (foreign or domestic) for reasons not specified due to "national security" and have no checks and balances? With that kind of power the executive branch does not have to admit mistakes let alone apoligize. (director of intelligence reports directly to the Pres.)

    I mean, with that kind of power, does it really matter whether the government is Republican or Democrat.

    The president (pre & current administrations) have signed laws that gives the Executive branch power that is completely above reproach (like a old european king or an Incan god/king).

    And for those that are die hard Bush fans and think his administration rocks, imagine the current power they have in the hands of Hilary Clinton (the person Bushies seem to hate the most).

    This is not about any American political party, its about the power of the American government over basic human rights, life and liberty.

    What good is national security without liberty?
    What good is government without truth and justice?

    NSDs:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Directive
    Intelligence Authorization Acts:
    http://www.sacurrent.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10705756
    • Hellmark, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Who's saying anything about partisanship? Just because I mentioned two recent presidents that happen to be of different parties, doesn't mean I think this has anything to do with arty lines. The government is ***** up, and has been ***** up for a long time, and everyone involved pretty much, regardless of parties, are just as ***** up.
  • NanoStuff, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8We should have a Digg section, "Coverups by US government" to decongest the front page.
    • cbreaker, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Why, so you can ignore those while you play video games all voting day instead of going out to vote?
  • badbox, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3This happens because people are complacent.

    No one fights. Everyone wants to settle in court, which won't happen.

    There was a man who was suspected of the Madrid bombings who was arrested by the FBI for no reason - the story was his fingerprints matched when in reality they didn't.

    He obliged and went with them. ***** that, if I *knew* I was innocent and a victim of the government's *****, you bet your ass those FBI agents would be ***** dead.

    People need to fight, not comply. These are your constitutional rights they are infringing upon, and violating those should be death sentence to anyone who does.
    • Simon280586, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1That's just stupid. Fighting physically isn't going to get you anywhere. If you think as long as you're innocent you're allowed to retaliate, you're also condoning the actions of guilty people who retaliate. Innocence or guilt isn't assessed at the time of arrest, that's completely unworkable. What you should be fighting for is the right of protesting your innocence in a court of law.

      Arrests based on suspicion can only be justifiable if there is an opportunity for your case to be heard and to hold the security services to account. That is your constitutional right, not some anarchist's desire for resisting lawful arrest with violence. In America these fundamental rights are being increasingly eroded, and by all means be angry, but direct your anger at the real issues here.
  • DrNolove, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2In a follow up story it's been reported that on his way out of the court room Ashton Kutcher jumped out and yelled "YOU JUST GOT PUNK'D!"
    • Cloned, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I'm waiting for him to yell that to the American public when Bush leaves office.
  • kerryhall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Reading this article made me feel sick to my stomach.
  • jonathansoeder, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0The argument that foreigners aren't subject to US law is simply wrong. The US constitution states that all foreign treaties are the "supreme law of the land" and a number of foreign treaties signed by the US, for example the Universal Declaration of Human Rights not to mention several others which define the proper and improper treatment of foreign citizens would make this type of behavior unlawful
  • dcpar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3the US is just like Britney Spears... Yeah, Britney.

    Both of y'all have a great opportunity to do something great, but instead you end up acting insane, attacking people for no reason, all to the detriment of your children.

    Britney went to rehab. The US needs to go as well. Maybe Obama can help, he seems like a nice guy to talk to.
  • cougar618, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Hum... he's from Germany and of an Islamic decent.. There's a Jew behind this somewhere..
    (come'on guys.. you at least chuckled).
  • bluenash, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1"if your going to make an omelet you have to break some eggs." over two thousand people were obliterated on 911 not including the number of lives that were directly or indirectly effected. and you, sir, found yourself beneath the juggernaut of a nation hurt, angry, and coming to grips with our new reality. it's ugly no doubt. it's a price we paid and everyone is paying. bin laden (Satan) claps his hands together in maniacal glee. sorry again
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