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Help waterboard Brad Spangler to stop torture

bradspangler.com — I'm volunteering to get waterboarded in order to draw attention and public condemnation to the recent congressional vote affirming Bush administration torture policies. Please help spread the word so I can get the volunteer help I need to pull this off.

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  • Rhiannon1214, on 10/12/2007, -11/+32Talk about having the cojones to live up to your beliefs......you've got 'em Brad. I've sent this link to a large contingent. I don't think I could watch it, .but we must deluge Congress with this and challenge those who support torture to do the same. And yes....the little dictator and his regime in the White House too.
    • truegodofwar, on 10/12/2007, -78/+12It's people like this that undermine americans confidence in our leader. If we don't have confidence we don't have anything. You will wish bush was allowed to torture terrorist when the terrorist break into your home and tortures you!!
    • PongGod, on 10/12/2007, -11/+35@falsegodofwar:

      Actually, our so-called "leader" has done a rather fine job of undermining Americans' confidence all by himself. I doubt there's any single thing as un-American as condoning torture, which of course, is a notoriously ineffective way to gain useful information. The obvious flaw in your thinking is the presumption that any suspect detained is necessarily an actual terrorist. A person being tortured will say practically ANYTHING just to make the torture stop. What possible useful information will be obtained from an innocent person this way, not to mention the horrific injustice perpetrated on that person. If you think our government has infallible judgement in its ability to round up only guilty individuals, you are hopelessly brainwashed.
    • SqueakyWheel, on 10/12/2007, -38/+9More like making them uncomfotable then torture. Toture is what Islamic Radicals do to our soldiers and civilians when they capture them. I can't beleive we wont to give hotel suites to the people who cut off our civilians heads.
    • SqueakyWheel, on 10/12/2007, -14/+6Brad better watch out now that Bush has power to imprison him indefinitely. Really does anyone have the real information on what this new bill allows? Where can I find the text of the bill?
    • RandomGuySteve, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12As a US citizen I'm all for the outlaw of most if not all torture techniques.
    • fgsfds, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

      Last I checked, "discomfort" doesn't cause brain damage or break bones:
      "The physical effects are extreme pain and damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation and sometimes broken bones because of the restraints applied to the struggling victim. The psychological effects can be longlasting (see below)."

      Also, people can be uncomfortable for hours without much of a problem, but as for waterboarding:
      "The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last over two minutes before begging to confess."
    • Jawood, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18
      If you waterboarded me, I'm sure I would confess to anything that you wanted me too.

      In my opinion, I think all of the false intelligence that the administration received regarding Iraq was had from torture. The folks being tortured just told their torturers what they wanted to hear - that Saddam was harboring terrorists and supporting them.

      I believe in America and I believe we need to walk the walk and talk the talk. Right now, we're just talking the talk but doing somthing else. We're saying "We're the beacon of freedom" but our Government wants to act like some despotic dictators (Like um, Saddam) and torture people. If we do what Saddam did, then how does that make us any different? Oh wait, let me guess, "That's different, we're America!"

      We're better than that and we should put our money where out mouth is. Instead of saying we're better, let's show them.
    • loveandrockets, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Interesting tactic but I just don't think you will be able to stand more than a minute or so. From what I've read, it triggers an autonomic response from your body that you are DROWNING. Which is not pleasant and you will be saying the safe word in 30 seconds.

      Also, torture is not used to gain information usually, but confessions. Like "I am a criminal for bombing the peaceful people of Hanoi" or "I willingly plotted against the Reich." I don't know why our government needs confessions.
    • Glen.Leaf, on 10/12/2007, -14/+6Here's a real torture video.

      Watch it if you dare.

      http://inhonor.net/videos/uped/fl_video.php?f_num=66500
    • Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11I've corrected the Wikipedia entry to read: "Waterboarding is a fun and safe way of obtaining information from obstinate terrorists. It can be compared to tickling with a feather, except without the cramps."
    • SonofMaug, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8@Glen.Leaf

      That is a truly horrifying video and I hope you realize that you have made the point of the article. From the explanation of the video: "Al Qaeda's leader in Iraq beheaded an American civilian and vowed more killings in revenge for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, an Islamist Web site said Tuesday."
      So, if we had not abused prisoners of our own would they have done this? If we had not invaded Iraq would they have done this? I doubt it. Are we safer than we were 9/10/2001? I don't think so.
      The lies and war and torture and revenge killing and kidnapping and all of this other ***** has to stop. I think the next person to be waterboarded should be Bush, then we'll see if he's so gung-ho about it.
    • Glen.Leaf, on 10/12/2007, -14/+3@SonofMaug & you other stupid sons of bitches

      Don't you see whats going on here?

      We're comparing pouring ***** water on someones face and cutting off their ***** heads!

      That's the kind of people we are dealing with.

      Besides killing them how do you propose we deal with them? Come on. Let's hear the ideas. Fruit baskets?
    • TexMexMatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think that the terrorist are beginning to enjoy this because they can spread their lies more effectively now that torture is okay. Come on, the bad guy will confess to anything and USA will run around to check out everything and that way the terrorist real plot can sneak in unnoticed because it will be so much noise that it will be so difficult to filter out what is true from what is false.

      Torture will give the victory to the terrorists.
    • SonofMaug, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@Glen.Leaf

      I don't think the name calling was necessary, do you? I was merely trying to respond to your comment in a rational way. If you feel you have to call people names to validate your point, then I am sorry for you.

      Name calling aside, the article calls into question waterboarding not only because it is a barbaric practice, but also because it has the potential to be used on people who have done nothing wrong! If the government decides that you pose a threat to them (I am assuming here that you are an American citizen), then new laws just passed would allow them to declare you an enemy combatant, whisk you away to a secret prison and waterboard you. How would this help us in the "War on Terror"?

      As far as us comparing waterboarding to "cutting their ***** heads off" I did no such thing. I said that waterboarding gives them, in their view, a reason to do what they do. So what do you propose then? Shall we run around and cut their heads off too? If so, what do you think their response will be? All torturing people does is give a rallying point to the people that already don't like us.

      As for fruit baskets, I think we passed that point a while ago, but I bet a fruit basket at the right time a long time ago would have done some good.
    • aristotle1990, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Actually, the "false" confessions of Khaled Sheik Mohammed proved to be quite reliable. Non-physically harmful terror can be very useful in obtaining information from convicted, murderous terrorists. Accountability, yes, but I wouldn't refrain from using non-physically damaging "torture" against people who want to kill thousands of innocent people.
    • alteal, on 10/12/2007, -5/+0I would be happy to watch it. It will prove it is not torture. It just scares the hell out of the wet guy. I wouldn't volunteer because I'm sure it is uncomfortable. But, if you're just waterboard sporting, you will know you won't drown and shouldn't fear for your life at all. It is a very successful method of coerced interrogation.

      This isn't your mommy's army. This is a real war.
    • JackSchaefer, on 10/12/2007, -8/+0You people are clueless. If you want to be waterboarded go to SEAR school. I am tired of you brain dead liberals, our country and gov't does the best it can in everything we do.
    • fgsfds, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Jack, it's spelled "SERE", thus proving that you've never actually had anything to do with it. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SERE )

      I'd also like to note that the US millitary has harsh penalties in place for any soldier who waterboards somebody; they are opposed to the practice.

      Further, the government is NOT the country. The government can turn against the country, and the country can replace it if that happens. A country is it's people and it's ideals, neither of which the government has been very faithful to.
    • lilzaphod, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1wrong place, see below
  • bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -11/+10"...deluge Congress with this..."

    ROFL! Bad pun, but I love it! :)
    • tehranchik, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I saw a reporter go through this waterboard torture. He held up for almost 30 mins. He said he really felt like he was going to die. They used real waterboard experts. Can you imagine? It was horrible. I felt like I couldn't breath just watching.
  • PongGod, on 10/12/2007, -12/+11Not to worry, folks, the Senate is currently working hard to clamp down (no pun intended!) on this out-of-control torture stuff.

    http://www.theonion.com/content/node/53539
  • bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18@truegodofwar, this is what's going to happen to every American that dares step out of line if your kind continue getting their way. Why should I give you the luxury of having this done to me a year or two down the road in a secret prison where you don't have to watch or hear about it? At least have the balls to watch it on YouTube and then you can go back to polishing your leather and watching Triumph of the Will on DVD.
  • JDenigma, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16truegodofwars comment is just so remarkably childish and ignorant that I don't even feel like giving much of a substantive response to it. Normally I would, but I'm not in much the mood right now to spend much time typing any comments to threads and I'd rather spend it on a more worthy opponent. It's kind of frightening to think there are plenty of people like that out there and that fgw represents a great deal of them. It's just a lot of them feel the way fgw does, but they won't come right out and say it in such certain terms the way fgw has. FGW is an example of what it really means to be UnAmerican. People merely voicing their opinions undermines the president and the morale of the military? That is so weak that is laughable. God forbid we undermine the legitimacy of government anyway. Nevermind, I told myself that I'm not going to get into this. It's amazing that someone would be that so easily led and brainwashed that they feel people have to be that blindly loyal to government and never question anything. FGW, let's just say that you would have been with the Red Coats. Enough said.
  • Aloyarc, on 10/12/2007, -25/+2When some raghead is pulling your fingernails out with a wrench, you're going to wish we tortured at least ONE of them, I guarantee it.
    • monkeycat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Why would that make anyone feel any better? If someone treats you in such an inhumane way as to make you feel humiliated, painful, and subhuman, how can you wish that on someone else? The point is to try to stop this action from all parties. By allowing the US to torture its "enemies", we give anyone else an absolutely free pass to torture US soldiers. Where will our moral high ground be then?
    • Aloyarc, on 10/12/2007, -8/+7Even if we didn't torture our enemies, I KNOW for a FACT we would still be tortured by those crazy extremists. You ever hear about Nick Berg? Thats a pretty good example of what these guys are capable of.

      I also don't think that you should just torture someone out of the blue, but if you are in a small room for 36 months with some terrorist who knows the locations of important people, maybe its time to start forcing out answers?
    • monkeycat, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11Here's the thing: Torturing them 1) doesn't really work that well and 2) legitimizes torture. If we are doing it and we are a so-called civilized society, then there really isn't anything wrong with torture.
    • drommer, on 10/12/2007, -8/+17What is wrong with you bush supporters ?

      The terrorist menace within the States is so overblown. Don't you realize that September 11 was Bush's Reichstag fire ? They knew about it and they watched the towers crumble because it gave them a way of destroying your civil rights (not mine, I'm Canadian ... but even there ...) and let them do whatever they want whenever they want.

      They're using the state of constant fear they've put you into to pass bills like that torture bill and bringing your country back 50 years in the past ... When will you wake up and smell the coffee ???
    • Aloyarc, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5I agree with you that torturing doesn't really work that well, but if you keep it up, maybe you can get a little more information. I see it as a last resort kind of thing.

      Torture doesn't have to involve cutting off limbs, either.

      @ drommer: Since you are such an expert, why don't you explain to us what YOU would do?
    • drommer, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6I'm not an expert Aloyarc, but I cannot believe Bush got elected in the first place, and then reelected, and then still benefit from massive support from the people that his government is exploiting.

      I can't really do anything about it can I ? I can't vote in the US ... but even here, we're affected since our Government is run by Conservatives, in other words, the Republican's little brother to the north ... I didn't vote for them but it got through ...
    • dotorg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2drommer: he didn't get elected the first time, and everything since then (tolerance of the war, tolerance of the vivisection of the constitution, tolerance of manipulation of fuel markets for the benefit of his friends and other party members in elections, tolerance of torture) has been because of a masterful job of scaring the ignorant.

      The US has been a country of ignorant, uneducated religious conservatives and rednecks for a long time... but Bush mastered getting the majority out to vote.

      Its unfortunate, because the real threat to the American way of life is the very people Bush goes out of his way to make his supporters... not terrorists.
    • kaemaril, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1With a wrench?! I dunno, terrorists these days. In my day they used pliars ...
    • ataxiaverge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The answer to "what we should have done" is a simple one: what we have striven for in the past. The type of information we should have been able to get out of the terror suspects we retained for interrogation was not inaccessible to us, it was our decision to use physical torture instead of more legitimate (and reliable) methods of interrogation that led to wild goose chase after wild goose chase of shoddy information. Quoting from a Time magazine Article (September 10, 2006) entitled "The Unofficial Story of the al-Qaeda 14," which I have found to be an incomparable assessment of the situation:

      "As the dusty rabble of Afghan fighters moved to the newly opened Guantánamo in early 2002 and the first al-Qaeda operative--the pint-size Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi--was picked up, debate raged inside the Administration as to what would produce the highest-quality "yield" from interrogation with the greatest speed. There was fear of a second-wave attack, after all, and U.S. intelligence was panicked. On one side was the FBI, which touted its 1990s experience interrogating al-Qaeda operatives--interrogation that led to numerous prosecutions for the first World Trade Center attack and other bombings. Yes, it took a while to break, or co-opt, informants, but the wait was worth it, and everything was admissible in court. The thing the FBI learned: al-Qaeda members assumed their jailers would dismember them. When instead the interrogators presented a tough but very human face, the detainees were confused. Small amenities--an FBI agent's knowledge of the Koran, unlimited videos and even an operation for an al-Qaeda member's child--were the kinds of things that eventually turned them. Patience was rewarded. On the other side was the CIA, bursting with urgency and a taste for "whatever's necessary" improvisation--a view encouraged by White House lawyers and a series of anything-goes legal opinions. Bush, heavily directed by Vice President Dick Cheney, went with the CIA. Top-level captives would go to the agency. No one thought much about the summation of the FBI's pitch--successful prosecution in U.S. courts. That was for later, or never."
  • djbelieve, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this guy also needs someone to volunteer to build a better website for him. His current site is confusing and hurts my brain.

    His idea is a crazy one, but maybe this is what it will take to bring attention to the terrible practice of waterboarding.
    • ctishman, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I'm digging this story and marking it as my #1, but I concur. The current layout obscures your message in a sea of closely-packed, hard-to-read text.

      I suggest moving the waterboarding site to a purpose-built subpage of some kind with a very minimal description of what you want to do, the positions you still need filled, links to video.

      Also, record video sound-bites by your staff certifying you're not insane/suicidal, and record a brief video describing why you're doing it.

      Be calm. Be literate, well-dressed and well-groomed. Do not mention your political views or organization. Let the video speak for itself, uncolored by your own opinions.
  • kspen, on 10/12/2007, -17/+9If this guy is willing to have it done---it just proves that it is not bad.T
    If he really wants to make a statement-agree to get blown up by an IED
    The feeling people get is that they think they are drowning-they are not hurt at all.
    • ctishman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Why don't you volunteer to do it in his place, then?
    • bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The reason they "feel like" they are drowning is because they are being asphyxiated. Waterboarding someone means subjecting them to the very real possibility of death, brain damage or possible heart failure.
  • n8f8, on 10/12/2007, -13/+3I'll pay him to be beheaded to draw attention to terrorist torture policies. Loser.
  • bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14@kspen: then why were Japanese who did it to American POWs tried as war criminals?
  • JonnyTrombone, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6Largest. Balls. Ever.
  • zbarlowe, on 10/12/2007, -18/+4Yay yay, lets let the terrorists just blow up whatever they want, and if we happen to catch one, we will just ask him nicely if he has knowledge of any other plans. Terrorists are rational people too! They will help us catch their fellow terrorists if we ask nicely.

    I say start cutting of fingers, waterboarding isn't enough.
    • fahrenheitlf, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Why is the opposite of torture to ask nicely? Black/White. Good/Evil. You're a simpleton.
    • Aloyarc, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5Military: OK, Haseem! You tell us where those other terrorists are and we'll give you a lollipop!

      Terrorist: Is it going to be a red one? I like red lollipops.

      Military: Yes, Haseem, it'll be red.

      Terrorist: Theres 3 in the mountains and a few underground. You give me a car and I'll take you there!

      Sorry, it doesn't work like that.

      I agree with you, we need to use better ways of getting information.
    • tobyjoe, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6"...and if we happen to catch one..."

      Not, "...and if we happen to convict one..."

      You're fine with anyone suspects being tortured?

      So many statements in this thread are along the lines of "they do it, too" as if we're talking about how to punish specific people who have committed torture.

      In reality, it's talking about TORTURING PEOPLE WHO ARE SUSPECTED OF EITHER ACTING *OR* HAVING ANY INFORMATION. Suspected. Of many things. Suspected.

  • n8f8, on 10/12/2007, -14/+5Maybe he should let himself be beheaded to draw attention to terrorist torture policies.
    • sonicdevo, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2amen
    • kaemaril, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1"Maybe he should let himself be beheaded to draw attention to terrorist torture policies."

      As torture goes, beheading doesn't really work too well as an interrogation method.
  • Thater, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14I think the point that most of the people posting here supporting the torture bill seem to be missing is that not everyone we capture is guilty. In Afghanistan the US Military was offering money for terrorism suspects. As a result small bands of armed afghani militia men were picking up everyone they could and basically selling them to the US Military, whether they were a terrorist or not. These men were subsequently taken to Gitmo and tortured into admitting to crimes they didn't commit.

    Torture simply doesn't work... Even in Saudi Arabia there were a couple of British guys a few years ago captured by Saudi police and accused of a car bombing they had nothing to do with. They were toruted for days without sleep or food and eventually admitted to the crimes and were sentenced to be executed. They were eventually released to British custody but their conviction and sentence still stand in Saudi Arabia.

    So explain to me where this makes sense. What good does it do anyone? You guys need to stop basing all your misinformed ideas on television shows and try reading something. Otherwise, shut the ***** up.
    • victorycig, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Thater is correct, and furthermore, it is easier now for the US to arrest any person, US citizen or not, on the belief they are an "enemy combatant."

      Once a person is taken, they may now LEGALLY be subjected to torture and eventually a brutal killing without ever being given the opportunity to even protest their capture.

      We are entering dark waters. This is not the United States I want to live in.
  • dillchuk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4> If this guy is willing to have it done---it just proves that it is not bad.

    Of course this won't be 100% bona fide, but it's the best controlled statement one can make against torture.

    To add more realism, the person being tortured needs to think that the torturer is itchin' to kill. Being in a secret prison with no advocates and no witnesses with consciences tends to enhance the mood.
  • gigaboss, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7its already been done.
    you guys and girls might want to check this out.
    kaj larson, one of current TVs correspondents was recently waterboarded and here is where u can see the clip.

    http://www.current.tv/video/?id=13462474
    • djbelieve, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@gigaboss: You should post this a story on Digg. The video needs to be seen.
  • bushwood7, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3brad,
    you'll need more than a "trusted friend" for the act. the person really needs training to make the technique effective and, more importantly, safe.
    • diggduggjoe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3When being human is not enough to prevent torture, you actually believe being American will protect you from our government? Dumb-asses.

      Just the idea that the government may determine what human rights will apply and when destroys those rights for all of us.

      A great point made in the Wikipedia article on waterboarding was how witches were discovered with this technique. Obviously, there were no witches, just tortured souls willing to confess while being waterboarded. Torture is immoral and useless.
  • omgwut, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7The waterboarding method of torture was never designed to reveal truthful information, merely to elicit responses, and its shown that that's been the case where its been implemented with detainees. We don't need these sorts of criminal actions, we need good intelligence and police work.

    If you support this *****, you have no more right to be angry when you see our soldiers and journalists being tortured on tape anymore.
    • mkleehammer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1So, you think they were trying to get information from Nick Berg? They just wanted Daniel Pearl to reveal where the President is hiding out? Dragging dead bodies down the street and setting them on fire, trying to get them to cough up the location of IEDs the US plants... Something like that?

      I haven't seen any of our soldiers/people interrogated yet.
  • rockets, on 10/12/2007, -16/+5I'm so glad I am registered to digg.com to counter all the liberal hippie nonsense I am reading. Bury !
    • Wootery, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Blocked.

      Flamebait isn't cool.

      (That's right, you don't deserve the proverbial beating-down you were hoping for.)
  • sevenofsix, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5You'd have to sign a waiver and consent, but I'd love to shoot you in the kneecaps with my .45 to illustrate other forms of torture that the US doesn't use on enemy combatants. Or possibly, we could arrange for Al Qaeda to slowly behead you and they could air that on Aljazeera to show that some Americans are sympathetic to their plight. They would surely stop attacking the US, and kidnapping and torturing US citizens as a result of your sacrafice. We could then make a big deal about it and pat ourselves on the back about how Progressive we are.
    • ideasyncrasy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I'm sorry - it's atrocious when Al Qaeda does it, but okay when we do???

  • TrevorBradley, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I was waiting for someone to do something like this. I hope it gets heavily publicized. Something like this could turn the tables.

    I'm actually reminded of an incident in 1920's Canada, where our first female memeber of parlaiment Agnes McPhail visited a Canadian Prison and spoke out against the deplorable conditions there. It was dramatized in an amazing "Historica minute", part of a series of one minute segments on TV to promote history:

    http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=10212

    Agnes was an amazing woman... I hope Brad Spangler goes Agnes McPhail on the Administration's ass.
  • bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6The point a lot of folks seem to be missing is that this is also taking place within a context of a Bush administration push for criminalization of dissent. The subtle threats from cowardly little jackboot lickers above kind of prove that point. I mean, you might trust Bush with the power to lock anyone away in a secret dungeon forever and torture them, but do you trust Hillary with it? It could happen to you, so we all need to take a stand against this. Habeas corpus is GONE with this bill. We have crossed the line into police state territory. Speak out while you still can!

    See also:
    It Could Happen To You
    Is Dissent Treason? That's the legal climate Bush wants
    • fgsfds, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I have a better suggestion, Brad:

      Travel the country in a van with a support crew, and offer to waterboard people who advocate the practice.

      "If you say it's not so bad, then put your ass where your mouth is!"
  • modiggs1976, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Hey Brad

    Don't do it. It's sadder that you feel you need to do this to drive the point home. Plus, no one will be convinced. I am livid about the state of affairs in this country, but no one will be convinced by this. Seriously, those who are for it will just say yu are innocent and these people aren't. I appreciate the nobility but I'm on the verge of tears. Tears that I was saving .for Cliff B's next video game. You gots to chill.
  • bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Oh, and BTW -- along with that .45, pack a sack lunch and a few body bags. You also might want to Google "Hydrashok" and ponder just how good of a shot I am.
  • davidanders, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain
  • tobyjoe, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3For torture supporters who believe that any person taken into custody should be tortured, regardless of whether they are guilty, or whether they have any information, and who believe torture yields solid and dependable information, I ask this: what do you believe about Jill Carroll's post-release video?

    What are your opinions about coerced 'confessions' in general? Would you, as a juror, stand tall and honor a judge's order to ignore a confession that turned out to be coerced? If so, how do you reconcile these opinions?

    What is the proper response to being captured as someone who may or many not have information and tortured when, in fact, you have no information? If it happened to you, what would your response be and do you feel your response would be ethically sound?

    Keep in mind that all these responses saying "they're terrorists, they deserve torture!" assumes first that these people are convicted of having committed crimes, AND it ignores the people NOT suspected of having committed crimes but suspected of having KNOWLEDGE.

    I'd love to see some use cases. I want to know more about these abstractions you want to see tortured.
  • bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3And the links...
    http://digg.com/politics/It_Could_Happen_To_You
    http://digg.com/political_opinion/Is_Dissent_Treason_That_s_the_legal_climate_Bush_wants
  • ickabodaikin, on 10/12/2007, -10/+4Idiot, waterboarding is banned under both the house and senate bills. Bush is expected to sign. I hope to god somebody violates the law when Osama Bin Somebody has information about where the atomic weapon is planted in one of our big cities.
    • BrandNewDigger, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3If everyone who dugg this article actually watched/read the news regarding this bill, they would know that waterboarding is BANNED under both the house and senate bills. As for habeus corpus being removed, it only applies to non-citizens. I can understand how people think this is wrong considering it would affect illegal aliens, but understand that if you are citizen, YOU are safe. I'm not necessarily saying I approve of it affecting illegal aliens, though. Also, you all need to actually read the Geneva Conventions. These conventions were written to only be applied during war-time and against certain types of combatants. No where does it state that these Conventions apply to a place such as Gitmo or on the type of people we hold there. On the other hand, the supreme court did somewhat recently take the stance that these Geneva Conventions DO apply to Gitmo etc, but this will probably won't last long, seeing as how it is totally taking the G.C.'s out of context. Even if you think I'm biased, please go and read the geneva conventions yourself, word for word, and maybe you will understand this torture issue better than the news explains it to you.
  • adinb, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Brad -- I'm there with you, you have my full support as a retired vet and as former aircrew. Let me know what I can do to help.
  • 2000, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Didn't they show this type of torture on the 4400? It would still be interesting to hear an interview with a person who has had this happen to them.
  • Jaymoon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3So where can I donate directly to his "Get a new web designer" fund?
  • nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -9/+4



    Too bad that waterboarding is NOW PROHIBITED by the agreement reached in congress.



    So this guy will just end up looking like a whining little pro-terroist-rights retard.




  • Glen.Leaf, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Why is the video I posted getting dug down?

    Are you pussies to pussy to watch it?
    • cm32438, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I watched it, and I appreciate that you posted it. However, that was hardly torture. That was murder.
  • automagically, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I don't get why people are pro-torture just because the alleged terrorists are pro-torture. Doesn't that put you on the same level as them? This is as bad as saying it's ok for Bush to attack countries and kill civilians because Clinton lied about a BJ. Two wrongs don't make a right, simple as that. Someone has to be the good guy, and I always thought that was what America was about. But now it seems like there are no good guys.

    And as others have pointed out, torture isn't a foolproof method for deciding who is guilty and innocent. When a person being tortured is told the pain will stop if they confess, what do you think they will do? What, you believe there really were witches in Salem?
  • Noods, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I thought about this yestrerday when I saw the Digg post on waterboarding. This is exactly what the DNC needs to do to get people to realize why torture is wrong. Thanks for having the nuts to do this.
    • nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Good luck with that....90% of americans think tourtue is ok for terrorists.

      Typical Democract strategy.... take a wacky unpopular position and then compain how the election is rigged when they loose.

  • twinklyJesus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, there's no hope of getting objective information from this guy. What we need is someone who supports waterboarding to do this. This guy will overact every possible reaction hes read about. Won't prove anything and chances are, this guy will
    scam off with the "help" he's asking for. ($$$)
  • there, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5 What's really scares me the most about this whole torture thing is not that same lame politicians now think that techniques used by the Spanish Inquisitors hundreds of years ago is now acceptable again.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

    Nor is it that that the US is breaking international law and the Geneva Convention against torture (which it freely signed and endorsed up to to now.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture#Geneva_Conventions

    It isn't even that America military prisons are now somewhat comparable to that of the Khamer Rouge and other twobit dictatorships.
    .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge

    What's really scary?

    That there are millions of cruelhearted Republicans that are now basically American versions of Jihadists and third world politcal extremists.

    - massive police surveillance
    - secret courts
    - secret prisons
    - autocratic rule
    - torture

    What's even more amazing is that all these things occurred under a party that is supposed to be for less government. Turns out the Democrats are actually more representative of smaller government that the Republicans are. Republicans have shunned democratic values in favor of a poligarchy.
    • twinklyJesus, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3@ there:

      That's an out and out lie. No one is advocating the types of torture used in the Spanish Inquisition. You can't produce one legitimate shred of evidence to support this. Take your agenda and shove it up your ass, where the Spanish Inquisitors would've shoved the 10" metal screw. You really need to research these types of torture before you make bogus claims.
    • there, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@twinklyJesus

      ...........
      "No one is advocating the types of torture used in the Spanish Inquisition"
      ...........

      A ha....

      You know of course by saying "types" you just acknowledged we are using different "types" of torture....keyword being TORTURE. A freudian slip maybe but... oops.... too late to back out now dude :)

      Here are the first three articles of the Geneva Convention... which the US signed and didn't have a problem with until the neocons took office.

      Article 1

      1. Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
      2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

      Article 2

      1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
      2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
      3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

      Article 3

      1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.

      2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.

      Putting aside this is unenforceable..... according to what I am reading here the current administration is now a bunch of criminals according to international law. (and let's not forget America signed this document AND that you personally think what we are doing is torture.)

      ..........
      Take your agenda and shove it up your ass
      ..........

      And no doubt neocons would love to do so..... of course that's not torture either.... it's national defense. A twelve foot genetically engineered gerbal in my ass.... is a practical necessity for the war on terror and to protect the noble American values we cherish.

      Keep up the great work defending torture now. Don't let anyone tell you that stubborn pride isn't worth more than admitting a mistake and being a decent human being.


    • twinklyJesus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@there:

      No, I said "types" in reference to the many different forms of torture employed during the Spanish INquisition. Waterboarding is childs play compared to these. And this article is in reference to waterboarding. Do some research and stop pulling comparisons out of your ass because it "sounds" scary.

      You should probably give up the idea of being Perry Mason. You aren't very good at trapping people with their own arguments.
    • there, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2No you are now paraphrasing yourself. Again.... you said exactly this.

      "No one is advocating the types of torture used in the Spanish Inquisition"

      The sentence implies that at the moment you were writing it you were thinking we do torture in other ways. Otherwise you could have said simply....

      "No one is advocating torture used in the Spanish Inquisition"... and avoided using "the types". Now you are backtracking.... which was expected unfortunately... but the record still stands and you can't change it. .

      You slipped up and no matter how many times you come back to Digg... those words are still going to be there.

      I'm not sure what you are hoping to accomplish with further ad hominem attacks (other than demostrate how inadequate your arguments are).

      Torture is evil whether a jihadist does it...or an American.

      EVIL. EVIL EVIL.
    • there, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1You know I just realized what you should have said precisely is...

      "no one is advocating torture".

      You should not have qualified with either "the type OR "used in the Spanish Inquisition"

      Maybe you should sign up as a torturer as it's in line with your values. I hear GWB is hiring.

    • twinklyJesus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@there:

      Maybe you should continue your sixth grade education, Jethro.

      My grammar and qualifications were used correctly, you just continue to attempt to twist my words so that it fits your premise. You're an idiot.
    • there, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"Maybe you should continue your sixth grade education, Jethro. My grammar and qualifications were used correctly, you just continue to attempt to twist my words so that it fits your premise. You're an idiot."

      Jethro? Idiot? Sixth grade education?

      And these types of assertions add evidence to your arguments how? I'm so confused. I always though ad hominems are considered logical fallacies. I guess I'm just too uneducated and idiotic to understand your complex reasoning.

      And silly me for not realizing men that advocate torture are not enlightened and moral human beings.

      You win.......torture away.
    • twinklyJesus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@ there

      No one has been tortured, had their fingernails pulled out, been eviscerated, stretched on the rack. You are exaggerating a situation to suit your anti-Bush agenda. Keep trying.
    • there, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"You are exaggerating a situation to suit your anti-Bush agenda."

      One of us is definitely very very confused.

      So..... did the infinitely small posibility cross your mind. that the reason why you "suddenly" don't consider a simulated drowning as torture..... is because of YOUR politics not mine? Or maybe perhaps why I oppose Bush is exactly because he finds ways to justify violence....not because he is rightwing?

      In my opinion.... your moral compass has become so clouded by politics you can no longer distinguish good from evil.

      I don't hate Bush..... I hate violent fanaticism because that in itself is the heart of this oft ambgious thing we call evil. It doesn't matter if it's jihadists, leftwingers or rightwingers that suggest violence is moral. It's the purest form of evil and those that argue on it's behalf... are evil by ethical standards that date back thousands of years.

      What? Did you think the rich and powerful Nazis were aware they are being evil? Evil is always wrapped in "good intentions". In the end it is the act of violence itself what defines evil. There is no "just" torture.... there is only torture.

      If perchance a God exists twinklejesus.... I am infinitely confident where those that advocate torture are going. You can try playing your political little word games with your maker because I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you further.

      You win. You sure showed me how simulated drowning is not torture.
  • mrhogan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Can you really call it torture if someone volunteers for it?
  • enki25, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I saw we waterboard Bill O'reilly and find out what really happened with that lady he phone-sexed.
  • OsakaWilson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Is it a coincidence that the Bush administration uses torture and the information that they have gathered has been SO wrong? I don't think so.
  • BullyJack, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'll do #5...I'll be Spangler's friend.
  • floorman56, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2l Qaeda's leader in Iraq beheaded an American civilian and vowed more killings in revenge for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, an Islamist Web site said Tuesday."
    So, if we had not abused prisoners of our own would they have done this? If we had not invaded Iraq would they have done this? I doubt it.

    is equal to

    Well officer if my wife had not talked back to me I wouldn't have beat her.

  • floorman56, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2If the president were to get on TV and say

    " I would rather have 1 million Americans die .....Witness the destruction of 10 American city's. End our way of life and surrender to Al qaeda ...before I would waterboard one Al qaeda member."

    Would you then say he is doing the "right thing"?
    • nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2No I would say he is a pussy and just putting american lives at risk in order to baby coddle some ruthless pedophile murderor worshiping death cult members....as would 90% of americans.

  • Mudanie, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Water Boarding is not torture you ***** hippies.
  • Guncrazy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1You know what Saddam thinks when he hears that US Soldiers are using waterboarding to "torture" detainees?

    Saddam: . o O ( What a bunch of amateurs! )

    I wonder why Brad Spangler doesn't show the cojones to try out some of Saddam's tortures, such as those found in ANNEX 1 of the following document:

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/pdf/strawdossier.pdf

    How about trying an acid bath, Brad? Broken bottle shoved up your anus? Just one eye gouge? No? Ah, want to start with something easier, I understand. How about a power drill through your hand?

    Quite frankly, with the level of your involvement in this story, the whole thing stinks of blog whoring and self promotion. And the little stunt itself? I'd rate it somewhere between "Jackass" and a David Blaine "performance."

    As for me, "Oooh! Oooh! I volunteer for the Mock Execution!" When I get around to setting up a blog, you all can read more about it
  • jdieter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I disagree with this torture thing. We should be killing the enemy. Possum Squads like they used against the Japanese where if anyone was still alive - they capped em in the head with a .45. No one ever won a war by being nice. Put away the waterboards and break out the noose.
  • nomojunkscience, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1we are becoming a nation of pussies.
  •  

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