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- PongGod, on 10/12/2007, -11/+35@falsegodofwar:
Actually, our so-called "leader" has done a rather fine job of undermining Americans' confidence all by himself. I doubt there's any single thing as un-American as condoning torture, which of course, is a notoriously ineffective way to gain useful information. The obvious flaw in your thinking is the presumption that any suspect detained is necessarily an actual terrorist. A person being tortured will say practically ANYTHING just to make the torture stop. What possible useful information will be obtained from an innocent person this way, not to mention the horrific injustice perpetrated on that person. If you think our government has infallible judgement in its ability to round up only guilty individuals, you are hopelessly brainwashed. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -11/+32Talk about having the cojones to live up to your beliefs......you've got 'em Brad. I've sent this link to a large contingent. I don't think I could watch it, .but we must deluge Congress with this and challenge those who support torture to do the same. And yes....the little dictator and his regime in the White House too.
- Jawood, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18
If you waterboarded me, I'm sure I would confess to anything that you wanted me too.
In my opinion, I think all of the false intelligence that the administration received regarding Iraq was had from torture. The folks being tortured just told their torturers what they wanted to hear - that Saddam was harboring terrorists and supporting them.
I believe in America and I believe we need to walk the walk and talk the talk. Right now, we're just talking the talk but doing somthing else. We're saying "We're the beacon of freedom" but our Government wants to act like some despotic dictators (Like um, Saddam) and torture people. If we do what Saddam did, then how does that make us any different? Oh wait, let me guess, "That's different, we're America!"
We're better than that and we should put our money where out mouth is. Instead of saying we're better, let's show them. - bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18@truegodofwar, this is what's going to happen to every American that dares step out of line if your kind continue getting their way. Why should I give you the luxury of having this done to me a year or two down the road in a secret prison where you don't have to watch or hear about it? At least have the balls to watch it on YouTube and then you can go back to polishing your leather and watching Triumph of the Will on DVD.
- fgsfds, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
Last I checked, "discomfort" doesn't cause brain damage or break bones:
"The physical effects are extreme pain and damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation and sometimes broken bones because of the restraints applied to the struggling victim. The psychological effects can be longlasting (see below)."
Also, people can be uncomfortable for hours without much of a problem, but as for waterboarding:
"The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last over two minutes before begging to confess." - Thater, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14I think the point that most of the people posting here supporting the torture bill seem to be missing is that not everyone we capture is guilty. In Afghanistan the US Military was offering money for terrorism suspects. As a result small bands of armed afghani militia men were picking up everyone they could and basically selling them to the US Military, whether they were a terrorist or not. These men were subsequently taken to Gitmo and tortured into admitting to crimes they didn't commit.
Torture simply doesn't work... Even in Saudi Arabia there were a couple of British guys a few years ago captured by Saudi police and accused of a car bombing they had nothing to do with. They were toruted for days without sleep or food and eventually admitted to the crimes and were sentenced to be executed. They were eventually released to British custody but their conviction and sentence still stand in Saudi Arabia.
So explain to me where this makes sense. What good does it do anyone? You guys need to stop basing all your misinformed ideas on television shows and try reading something. Otherwise, shut the ***** up. - fahrenheitlf, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Why is the opposite of torture to ask nicely? Black/White. Good/Evil. You're a simpleton.
- JDenigma, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16truegodofwars comment is just so remarkably childish and ignorant that I don't even feel like giving much of a substantive response to it. Normally I would, but I'm not in much the mood right now to spend much time typing any comments to threads and I'd rather spend it on a more worthy opponent. It's kind of frightening to think there are plenty of people like that out there and that fgw represents a great deal of them. It's just a lot of them feel the way fgw does, but they won't come right out and say it in such certain terms the way fgw has. FGW is an example of what it really means to be UnAmerican. People merely voicing their opinions undermines the president and the morale of the military? That is so weak that is laughable. God forbid we undermine the legitimacy of government anyway. Nevermind, I told myself that I'm not going to get into this. It's amazing that someone would be that so easily led and brainwashed that they feel people have to be that blindly loyal to government and never question anything. FGW, let's just say that you would have been with the Red Coats. Enough said.
- monkeycat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Why would that make anyone feel any better? If someone treats you in such an inhumane way as to make you feel humiliated, painful, and subhuman, how can you wish that on someone else? The point is to try to stop this action from all parties. By allowing the US to torture its "enemies", we give anyone else an absolutely free pass to torture US soldiers. Where will our moral high ground be then?
- drommer, on 10/12/2007, -8/+17What is wrong with you bush supporters ?
The terrorist menace within the States is so overblown. Don't you realize that September 11 was Bush's Reichstag fire ? They knew about it and they watched the towers crumble because it gave them a way of destroying your civil rights (not mine, I'm Canadian ... but even there ...) and let them do whatever they want whenever they want.
They're using the state of constant fear they've put you into to pass bills like that torture bill and bringing your country back 50 years in the past ... When will you wake up and smell the coffee ??? - bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14@kspen: then why were Japanese who did it to American POWs tried as war criminals?
- Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11I've corrected the Wikipedia entry to read: "Waterboarding is a fun and safe way of obtaining information from obstinate terrorists. It can be compared to tickling with a feather, except without the cramps."
- fgsfds, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I have a better suggestion, Brad:
Travel the country in a van with a support crew, and offer to waterboard people who advocate the practice.
"If you say it's not so bad, then put your ass where your mouth is!" - loveandrockets, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Interesting tactic but I just don't think you will be able to stand more than a minute or so. From what I've read, it triggers an autonomic response from your body that you are DROWNING. Which is not pleasant and you will be saying the safe word in 30 seconds.
Also, torture is not used to gain information usually, but confessions. Like "I am a criminal for bombing the peaceful people of Hanoi" or "I willingly plotted against the Reich." I don't know why our government needs confessions. - ctishman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Why don't you volunteer to do it in his place, then?
- davidanders, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” ~ Mark Twain
- RandomGuySteve, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12As a US citizen I'm all for the outlaw of most if not all torture techniques.
- monkeycat, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11Here's the thing: Torturing them 1) doesn't really work that well and 2) legitimizes torture. If we are doing it and we are a so-called civilized society, then there really isn't anything wrong with torture.
- fgsfds, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last over two minutes before begging to confess."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
I dunno about you, but I've had no training to withstand torture and even I can take more than 2 minutes of getting my hand smacked with a metal yardstick without cracking. If somebody who's been highly trained in resisting torture breaks after a paltry two minutes, then I would go out on a limb and say that it's probably a lot more unpleasant than the wimpy kids crap that you're whining about.
Perhaps you really should try it out, that way you would know exactly what it is that you're advocating. - SonofMaug, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@Glen.Leaf
I don't think the name calling was necessary, do you? I was merely trying to respond to your comment in a rational way. If you feel you have to call people names to validate your point, then I am sorry for you.
Name calling aside, the article calls into question waterboarding not only because it is a barbaric practice, but also because it has the potential to be used on people who have done nothing wrong! If the government decides that you pose a threat to them (I am assuming here that you are an American citizen), then new laws just passed would allow them to declare you an enemy combatant, whisk you away to a secret prison and waterboard you. How would this help us in the "War on Terror"?
As far as us comparing waterboarding to "cutting their ***** heads off" I did no such thing. I said that waterboarding gives them, in their view, a reason to do what they do. So what do you propose then? Shall we run around and cut their heads off too? If so, what do you think their response will be? All torturing people does is give a rallying point to the people that already don't like us.
As for fruit baskets, I think we passed that point a while ago, but I bet a fruit basket at the right time a long time ago would have done some good. - djbelieve, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@2000: gigaboss posted a link to a video that shows it happening:
http://www.current.tv/video/?id=13462474
Also, digg his post:
http://digg.com/political_opinion/kaj_larsen_of_current_tv_gets_waterboarded - SonofMaug, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8@Glen.Leaf
That is a truly horrifying video and I hope you realize that you have made the point of the article. From the explanation of the video: "Al Qaeda's leader in Iraq beheaded an American civilian and vowed more killings in revenge for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, an Islamist Web site said Tuesday."
So, if we had not abused prisoners of our own would they have done this? If we had not invaded Iraq would they have done this? I doubt it. Are we safer than we were 9/10/2001? I don't think so.
The lies and war and torture and revenge killing and kidnapping and all of this other ***** has to stop. I think the next person to be waterboarded should be Bush, then we'll see if he's so gung-ho about it. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I don't get why people are pro-torture just because the alleged terrorists are pro-torture. Doesn't that put you on the same level as them? This is as bad as saying it's ok for Bush to attack countries and kill civilians because Clinton lied about a BJ. Two wrongs don't make a right, simple as that. Someone has to be the good guy, and I always thought that was what America was about. But now it seems like there are no good guys.
And as others have pointed out, torture isn't a foolproof method for deciding who is guilty and innocent. When a person being tortured is told the pain will stop if they confess, what do you think they will do? What, you believe there really were witches in Salem? - TexMexMatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think that the terrorist are beginning to enjoy this because they can spread their lies more effectively now that torture is okay. Come on, the bad guy will confess to anything and USA will run around to check out everything and that way the terrorist real plot can sneak in unnoticed because it will be so much noise that it will be so difficult to filter out what is true from what is false.
Torture will give the victory to the terrorists. - ideasyncrasy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I'm sorry - it's atrocious when Al Qaeda does it, but okay when we do???
- djbelieve, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this guy also needs someone to volunteer to build a better website for him. His current site is confusing and hurts my brain.
His idea is a crazy one, but maybe this is what it will take to bring attention to the terrible practice of waterboarding. - bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Oh, and BTW -- along with that .45, pack a sack lunch and a few body bags. You also might want to Google "Hydrashok" and ponder just how good of a shot I am.
- gigaboss, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7its already been done.
you guys and girls might want to check this out.
kaj larson, one of current TVs correspondents was recently waterboarded and here is where u can see the clip.
http://www.current.tv/video/?id=13462474 - bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6The point a lot of folks seem to be missing is that this is also taking place within a context of a Bush administration push for criminalization of dissent. The subtle threats from cowardly little jackboot lickers above kind of prove that point. I mean, you might trust Bush with the power to lock anyone away in a secret dungeon forever and torture them, but do you trust Hillary with it? It could happen to you, so we all need to take a stand against this. Habeas corpus is GONE with this bill. We have crossed the line into police state territory. Speak out while you still can!
See also:
It Could Happen To You
Is Dissent Treason? That's the legal climate Bush wants - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7The waterboarding method of torture was never designed to reveal truthful information, merely to elicit responses, and its shown that that's been the case where its been implemented with detainees. We don't need these sorts of criminal actions, we need good intelligence and police work.
If you support this *****, you have no more right to be angry when you see our soldiers and journalists being tortured on tape anymore. - tobyjoe, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6"...and if we happen to catch one..."
Not, "...and if we happen to convict one..."
You're fine with anyone suspects being tortured?
So many statements in this thread are along the lines of "they do it, too" as if we're talking about how to punish specific people who have committed torture.
In reality, it's talking about TORTURING PEOPLE WHO ARE SUSPECTED OF EITHER ACTING *OR* HAVING ANY INFORMATION. Suspected. Of many things. Suspected. - djbelieve, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@gigaboss: You should post this a story on Digg. The video needs to be seen.
- ctishman, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I'm digging this story and marking it as my #1, but I concur. The current layout obscures your message in a sea of closely-packed, hard-to-read text.
I suggest moving the waterboarding site to a purpose-built subpage of some kind with a very minimal description of what you want to do, the positions you still need filled, links to video.
Also, record video sound-bites by your staff certifying you're not insane/suicidal, and record a brief video describing why you're doing it.
Be calm. Be literate, well-dressed and well-groomed. Do not mention your political views or organization. Let the video speak for itself, uncolored by your own opinions. - bradspangler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The reason they "feel like" they are drowning is because they are being asphyxiated. Waterboarding someone means subjecting them to the very real possibility of death, brain damage or possible heart failure.
- OsakaWilson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Is it a coincidence that the Bush administration uses torture and the information that they have gathered has been SO wrong? I don't think so.
- victorycig, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Thater is correct, and furthermore, it is easier now for the US to arrest any person, US citizen or not, on the belief they are an "enemy combatant."
Once a person is taken, they may now LEGALLY be subjected to torture and eventually a brutal killing without ever being given the opportunity to even protest their capture.
We are entering dark waters. This is not the United States I want to live in. - there, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@twinklyJesus
...........
"No one is advocating the types of torture used in the Spanish Inquisition"
...........
A ha....
You know of course by saying "types" you just acknowledged we are using different "types" of torture....keyword being TORTURE. A freudian slip maybe but... oops.... too late to back out now dude :)
Here are the first three articles of the Geneva Convention... which the US signed and didn't have a problem with until the neocons took office.
Article 1
1. Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.
Article 2
1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.
Article 3
1. No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.
2. For the purpose of determining whether there are such grounds, the competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the State concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.
Putting aside this is unenforceable..... according to what I am reading here the current administration is now a bunch of criminals according to international law. (and let's not forget America signed this document AND that you personally think what we are doing is torture.)
..........
Take your agenda and shove it up your ass
..........
And no doubt neocons would love to do so..... of course that's not torture either.... it's national defense. A twelve foot genetically engineered gerbal in my ass.... is a practical necessity for the war on terror and to protect the noble American values we cherish.
Keep up the great work defending torture now. Don't let anyone tell you that stubborn pride isn't worth more than admitting a mistake and being a decent human being. - Wootery, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Blocked.
Flamebait isn't cool.
(That's right, you don't deserve the proverbial beating-down you were hoping for.) - floorman56, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2l Qaeda's leader in Iraq beheaded an American civilian and vowed more killings in revenge for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, an Islamist Web site said Tuesday."
So, if we had not abused prisoners of our own would they have done this? If we had not invaded Iraq would they have done this? I doubt it.
is equal to
Well officer if my wife had not talked back to me I wouldn't have beat her.
- Jaymoon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3So where can I donate directly to his "Get a new web designer" fund?
- TrevorBradley, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I was waiting for someone to do something like this. I hope it gets heavily publicized. Something like this could turn the tables.
I'm actually reminded of an incident in 1920's Canada, where our first female memeber of parlaiment Agnes McPhail visited a Canadian Prison and spoke out against the deplorable conditions there. It was dramatized in an amazing "Historica minute", part of a series of one minute segments on TV to promote history:
http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=10212
Agnes was an amazing woman... I hope Brad Spangler goes Agnes McPhail on the Administration's ass. - dillchuk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4> If this guy is willing to have it done---it just proves that it is not bad.
Of course this won't be 100% bona fide, but it's the best controlled statement one can make against torture.
To add more realism, the person being tortured needs to think that the torturer is itchin' to kill. Being in a secret prison with no advocates and no witnesses with consciences tends to enhance the mood. - fgsfds, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Jack, it's spelled "SERE", thus proving that you've never actually had anything to do with it. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SERE )
I'd also like to note that the US millitary has harsh penalties in place for any soldier who waterboards somebody; they are opposed to the practice.
Further, the government is NOT the country. The government can turn against the country, and the country can replace it if that happens. A country is it's people and it's ideals, neither of which the government has been very faithful to. - 2000, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Didn't they show this type of torture on the 4400? It would still be interesting to hear an interview with a person who has had this happen to them.
- twinklyJesus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, there's no hope of getting objective information from this guy. What we need is someone who supports waterboarding to do this. This guy will overact every possible reaction hes read about. Won't prove anything and chances are, this guy will
scam off with the "help" he's asking for. ($$$) - there, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5 What's really scares me the most about this whole torture thing is not that same lame politicians now think that techniques used by the Spanish Inquisitors hundreds of years ago is now acceptable again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
Nor is it that that the US is breaking international law and the Geneva Convention against torture (which it freely signed and endorsed up to to now.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture#Geneva_Conventions
It isn't even that America military prisons are now somewhat comparable to that of the Khamer Rouge and other twobit dictatorships.
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge
What's really scary?
That there are millions of cruelhearted Republicans that are now basically American versions of Jihadists and third world politcal extremists.
- massive police surveillance
- secret courts
- secret prisons
- autocratic rule
- torture
What's even more amazing is that all these things occurred under a party that is supposed to be for less government. Turns out the Democrats are actually more representative of smaller government that the Republicans are. Republicans have shunned democratic values in favor of a poligarchy. - diggduggjoe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3When being human is not enough to prevent torture, you actually believe being American will protect you from our government? Dumb-asses.
Just the idea that the government may determine what human rights will apply and when destroys those rights for all of us.
A great point made in the Wikipedia article on waterboarding was how witches were discovered with this technique. Obviously, there were no witches, just tortured souls willing to confess while being waterboarded. Torture is immoral and useless. - BullyJack, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'll do #5...I'll be Spangler's friend.
- there, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2No you are now paraphrasing yourself. Again.... you said exactly this.
"No one is advocating the types of torture used in the Spanish Inquisition"
The sentence implies that at the moment you were writing it you were thinking we do torture in other ways. Otherwise you could have said simply....
"No one is advocating torture used in the Spanish Inquisition"... and avoided using "the types". Now you are backtracking.... which was expected unfortunately... but the record still stands and you can't change it. .
You slipped up and no matter how many times you come back to Digg... those words are still going to be there.
I'm not sure what you are hoping to accomplish with further ad hominem attacks (other than demostrate how inadequate your arguments are).
Torture is evil whether a jihadist does it...or an American.
EVIL. EVIL EVIL. - Noods, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I thought about this yestrerday when I saw the Digg post on waterboarding. This is exactly what the DNC needs to do to get people to realize why torture is wrong. Thanks for having the nuts to do this.
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