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69 Comments
- Godwhacker, on 10/11/2007, -2/+18This whole bs asks us to assume that there is something wrong with being gay. Well, there isn't.
- chase001, on 10/11/2007, -1/+15Christians - you can be cured with education, medication and therapy. The childhood abuse of indoctrination into faiths can be cured!
- christianjb, on 10/11/2007, -5/+19News flash!
God is a manmade fiction. Homosexuality is a real occurrence that predates Christianity by an untold amount of time.
When Christianity is dead and gone, homosexuality will still be around. - orientis, on 10/11/2007, -1/+11"Knowing no one who I could approach with my questions and my doubts, I turned to God; I'd developed a growing relationship with God, thanks to a debilitating bout with intestinal cramps caused by the upset stomach-inducing behaviors I'd been engaged in."
Am I the only one who found this incredibly amusing? Intestinal cramps helped my relationship with God! - neptytune, on 10/11/2007, -2/+12And how many have left the Christian lifestyle? I would think it'd be FAR greater than ex-gays leaving the gay "lifestyle".
- staks176, on 10/11/2007, -4/+13The author makes the assumption that homosexuality cannot possibly lead to true, impassioned love. Maybe that is your experience and I dare not challenge you on that point. But to assume that it is not possible that a homosexual couple can genuinely love each other is childish and ignorant. The concept of your "true self" is brought up multiple times in this article, and how if you give in to your homosexual urges you are losing your "true self". To deny our emotions is to deny our true self.
- DanielFTL, on 10/11/2007, -8/+16Gay people do not change their sexual orientation at the drop of a hat any more than straight people change theirs. Nonsense. I don't care how much ex-gay phooey is printed and published, the fact remains that you cannot convert from one orientation to another. Either he's in denial that he's gay or he never was actually gay.
People will believe anything to avoid universal truths. - tehbored, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9This is ridiculous. Why should anyone care at all about the sexual preference of others?! Because "God" told them to? This is the whole problem with religion -- people don't think for themselves (really applies only to very religious people). He didn't become straight, he was never gay to begin with, he just thought he was, and he's an idiot for thinking otherwise.
- TheGroje, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Having read the article, I find that this is nothing more than one man's struggle with questions of his own sexuality. I do not see the validity of the generalized claims made by this author about humanity in general based solely upon his own internal conflict and decision making process.
While I have no doubt that he (and others) have wallowed in confusion with respect to their own sexuality and gender identities, their personal struggles and admitted psychological issues are no basis for universal proclamations regarding the nature of human sexuality. Some obviously struggle with their own sexuality. Some, just as obviously, do not. Like it or not, in either case their experiences are entirely subjective, their accounts anecdotal, and the conclusions they draw about human sexuality in general are often not supported by scientific research or even simple logic.
And, as most know, but not all will admit, the "appeal to the authority of Jesus" is a useful tact to take when one does not have a rational argument to make, nor the evidentiary grounds to support it. It may well be that someone prays and truly believes that Jesus has counseled them on "not being gay". It is just as likely as having someone else pray and perceiving Jesus as praising them for being just as gay as Jesus and John. Again, they are subjective claims and not externally verifiable. As such, they do not serve as evidence to support any argument whatsoever.
Frankly, I expect that like most things, the reality of human sexuality... what really drives us sexually... is far more complex, and varied than anyone can really imagine. I can't help but wonder why anyone who believes in the omniscience and omnipotence of a supreme being would think that same deity would want anything else. - christianjb, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6Uh, so you believe that a supernatural being created everything through saying a few magic words?
I wanted to understand the universe too- so I got a PhD in physics, but hey- whatever works for you. - christianjb, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6It's an old question, but why hasn't prayer ever reversed the effects of an amputation? Could it be that prayer doesn't work?
- laup, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6What a sad man. Is he "changing" for money or because he seriously needs therapy. Bet -- 5-7 years from now he'll be cruising again.
- christianjb, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6OK, but since there's absolutely no evidence that God is anything except a mythological construct, I'm not sure why you think that 'God knew' you liko the porno.
- pintomp3, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5he has decided to study the bible under the close supervision of ted haggard.
- ZWarren69, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5This article is rubbish, as is Christianity.
- christianjb, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4Please provide evidence of this supernatural 'God' you speak of.
- christianjb, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5What do you tell people who don't believe in your fairy tale God?
- Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I have to say that I love WND articles if only for the digg comments they spawn.
- redpixie, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Correct, it was around long before xtianity and will be around long after all these religious nuts are six feet under and rotting.
- Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Nothing to do with the 'debate' at hand but I have to ask anyway, if skin color didn't matter to Jesus, then it shouldn't matter to the church that follows him and his teaching, right? If skin color doesn't matter to the church that follows Jesus' teachings, then why do they constantly portray him as a white guy when he almost certainly appeared to be more black or middle eastern?
- MoleUK, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3Sexuality develops during adolescence, once it has set it is hard-wired into your neurology. That can't be changed, or at least we haven't found a way yet to change the makeup of the brain that well. As for older gays going after younger men, it's the same for us straights no? I do like young women, I probably always will. Unless you mean paedophilia, which in no way is linked with homosexuality. You seem to be confused about that. Most paedophiles are straight, and will have relationships with women as well as abusing children.
As for what 'makes' people gay, we don't know. It may be part biological part psychological, but as I said once sexuality sets in your brain is hard wired. It behaves differently to male/female stimuli depending on sexuality, this has been proven beyond any doubt. - meshman, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3"I guess what amazes me about all this vitriol against Christians, Christianity, God and people who believe in God is that it comes completely from people who SCREAM ACCEPTANCE, TOLERANCE and DIVERSITY. Do you realize how hypocritical you are? "
Lets see... the bible says, "Love they neighbor as thyself" and "He who is free from sin" and "turn the other cheek". Yet preachers use the bible to openly call homosexuals abominations. They'll quote passages from Leviticus about homosexuality yet completely ignore the rest. How many of your daughters have you sold into slavery? Then when a gay couple wants to get married, who are the people with the picket signs casting judgement only reserved for God? That's right, hypocrites.
Here's something you can work on. Stop creating laws against homosexuality based on bible passages. You live your life and I'll live mine. Raise your kids and live your life by the bible if you want, I choose not to. I have that right just as you do. How many gay crowds do you see picketing churches and straight weddings? None. They just want to live the lives as they choose. They don't want to picket churches, why do religious hypocrites picket gay weddings? The easy solution is for the religious to shut their righteous traps but they won't. So people like me will speak out against it as long as they refuse to shut up. When you shut your trap about it, I'll shut my trap about it and live my life as a productive member of society free from harassment or God's followers' judgements. If God doesn't approve of homosexuality then let God deal with it. - Terr01, on 10/11/2007, -3/+5"...is surprising coming from someone who obviously is gay" -- HumbleHank
"Sounds like you're the one who is believing anything to avoid a Universal Truth..." -- Griobhtha
"OK, beside the fact that you seem to be in denial yourself..." --RSandman
Uhm... WTF? Are you guys referring to something DanielFTL wrote elsewhere? - DanielFTL, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Please do some serious research about this subject and show me an individual who has converted (the headline says he's straight now) (either at the drop of a hat or through a long journey) that is not funded or supported by the religious. A life struggle against same-sex attraction is not conversion from homosexuality to heterosexuality. Let's agree to immediately discard any example where the individual is supported by, or offered up as proof by, a religious organization. I look forward to seeing the research.
- Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1While you are digging up evidence for redpixie, could you also show me how there can be a state of being heterosexual if there is no state of being homosexual.
If homosexuality is simply a behavior and not part of a person, then why would a personally active God be necessary to change a simple behavioral problem? People seem to be able to stop other behaviors like over-eating, smoking or drinking without the help of God. Why would homosexuality be any different? - Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I am fairly sure that there are people who have never seen porn, yet still feel lust. I also know people who fee lust, but don't like porn and feel only discomfort while watching it. If you feel you are a slave to your sexual desires, then by all means seek any help you find necessary. I just don't think it is fair to rest this entire issue at the feet of pornographers. Besides, without at least some measure of lust, how would people be attracted to each other and continue to reproduce?
- Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I don't think there would be as much rejection of groups that support people who are trying to convert from one sexuality to another if some of these groups did not also hold the view that one of the sexualities is evil and immoral. If the groups helped people transition in both directions, there would still be people who oppose them, but I don't think there would be as many of them.
- Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1"It's one thing if you want to continue in your lifestyle, but to discount and denigrate the lives of others that don't happen to corroborate your position is self deceiving and selfish."
Do you feel the same way about people who discount and denigrate homosexuals? If so, cheers! :) - graizur, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2Christianjb:
that's more tolerance than Christians have [B]ever[/B] extended to homosexuals.
Ever? Really? EVER? AS in since the beginning of time till now it has not happened ONCE?
No that's not what you meant? Then why are you subjecting us to such an extreme? - lavchan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3I don't know about a 'drop of a hat', but i believe gay people can change their sexual orientation. I mean, i am the most hard-core pro-queer feminist type of all time, but the human mind is pretty crazy. With enough mind games you can change almost anything about somebody.
I don't believe it's a 'cure' or anything though; it's more like sexual Stockholm syndrome.
Also what the ***** are all these retards doing here? I've seen anti-gay posters on Digg, but not in such heavy concentration, especially not on a thread that isn't even front-page. Is Digg being invaded or sth? - Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Please show me some proof that it is 'typical' of gay men to never find love.
If lust screws up the true love between gay men, then how does it not screw up the true love between a man an a woman? Isn't it lust that causes people (straight or gay) to commit adultery? Doesn't lust play some role in the process of two people being attracted to each other in the first place, before they can develop a deeper relationship and true, impassioned love or do you just walk down the street and randomly meet people that you decide to try to fall in love with?
I agree that emotions alone are not a good basis for decision making, but neither is emotionless logic. If people ignored emotions caused by our feelings of sympathy, then wouldn't we just kill off all people once they are not productive to society anymore? It makes perfect logical sense that, if a person contributes nothing to society and drains its resources that the society would be better off without them. It is our emotions and sympathy that stop us from doing these things. For this reason I feel that we must listen and trust our emotions in balance with logic and reasoning. - MoleUK, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Sexuality develops during adolescence, once it has set it is hard-wired into your neurology. That can't be changed, or at least we haven't found a way yet to change the makeup of the brain that well. Alot of hard-right folks often mistake or relate paedophilia with homosexuality. The vast majority of paedophiles are straight in their 'normal' lives, and will have relationships with women as well as abusing children. As for what makes people gay, we don't know. It may be part biological part psychological, but as I said once sexuality sets in your brain is hard wired. It behaves differently to male/female stimuli depending on sexuality, this has been proven beyond any doubt.
- Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Ummmm... don't people choose to listen to God because they feel like it? Don't people who read the Bible only follow the parts they feel like following? I don't know too many people who never shave or don't wear clothing of mixed fibers as the Bible instructs them to do. Aren't people who do what God tells them to do still doing what they feel like doing?
- Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I think you are correct. Even if there was apart of the brain the dictates sexual orientation (I'm not claiming that there is or is not, merely hypothetical) that can not be changed, I believe that people can be convinced that they have changed. I mean with enough sleep and sensory deprivation and possibly a few psychoactive drugs, people can be convinced that they are anything or nothing.
As for the people whom you call retards (which I feel may be insulting to people who actually have mental retardation), you will find many of them on any article that comes from WND. - Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Excellent! Welcome to my friends list. :)
- Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1What universal truth(s) are the two of you talking about? Sexuality seems to be too personal and complicated an issue to be taking universal truths from it.
- christianjb, on 10/11/2007, -1/+21) I don't happen to believe in the same fairy stories as you, so pardon me if I ignore the Jesus Christ stuff in your arguments.
2) I disagree with everything you say, but respect your right to say it. That's more tolerance than Christians have ever extended to homosexuals.
I don't however respect your sincere belief in your chosen fairy tales. In fact, let's be clear- I find you're faith to be annoying and find you to be a condescending bigot.
3) Your argument seems to be that homosexuality has to have a clearly defined genetic explanation in order to be tolerated. First off, that's rich coming from an adherent of a religion that barely tolerates modern genetic theory.
Secondly- Rape and murder have much easier evolutionary explanations than homosexuality. Just because rape and murder are natural, it doesn't make them right. Conversely, modern medicine is completely unnatural, but that doesn't make it unethical.
Homosexuality is very clearly a natural behavior (whatever its cause). Unlike murder or rape- it doesn't harm society or anyone else as long as it is practiced between consenting adults.
There is an elevated health risk attached to homosexual sex, but this can be lessened with education and appropriate precautions.
In short, there is no objective reason why homosexuality should be considered immoral. Your real problem is that your religion forbids it, but citizens in a secular society are not bound by your religious beliefs. - TheGroje, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1"...These behaviors are naturally inborn and are not learned.
1. They consume
2. They rest
3. They reproduce
So, using simply scientific reasoning, homosexuality is obviously inconsistent...."
This is an example of an argument based upon a false premise. The rational observation is that the sum all natural behaviors cannot be neatly lumped into one of your three arbitrarily restrictive categories. Additionally, you expect the reader to agree with your conclusion that any behavior which does not contribute directly to one of these three directives be considered aberrant.
I cannot understand why you would characterize such specious reasoning as "scientific".
The panoply of animal behavior easily observable in the natural world ridicules your attempts to confine them to consumption / rest / reproductive activities. In particular, homosexual behavior is not limited to the human species. It's not even limited to apes and mammals. In fact, the number of species wherein homosexual behavior has been observed and studied easily qualifies homosexuality as "natural" in any sense of the word you would care to employ.
You also presume that only individuals who express a genetic characteristic are capable of passing it on to their offspring. This, also, is demonstrably untrue. Even if we were to accept the premise that homosexuality is primarily genetic, the mechanisms of genetic inheritance allow parents without visible traits - including infertility - to pass genetic information onto their offspring where, depending on the characteristic, it may or may not be expressed. By your reasoning, there should be no genetic mechanism for infertility in the species, because such mechanisms would not have been inheritable by offspring. This, unfortunately, is not the case.
Given that homosexuality is natural (because it's observable in many other species), that the principles of genetic inheritance do not preclude it from being passed onto offspring (because infertility can have a genetic component), I have to wonder... how do so many Christians continue to rail against its existence without suffering any qualms about questioning their god's obvious wishes?
How is that not the definition of hubris? - redpixie, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2"That is the "why" behind heterosexual MARRIAGE partners who are complete virgins when married having the highest sexual satisfaction of all adults, the highest success rate in relationships, and report the greatest joy in the experience itself" - Please provide evidence.
" The gay mags discuss it," How would you know unless you read them? - Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1What about the sins of shaving, wearing clothing of mixed fibers and eating shellfish that are in Leviticus? Do those sins also separate you from God or do those not count?
- Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Well if God sends one more of his messenger boys to know on the door of my house while God knocks on the door of my heart, I may need to file a restraining order. A phone call now and then is ok, but this borders on stalking.
- Phrag, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1I going to assume that God knowing didn't matter until your ex-wife found out too, right?
I'm glad you have God to help you stop looking at porn, but there are plenty of people out there who can manage their lust just fine by themselves. I wouldn't say you are weak because you liked porn and needed help to stop looking at it. I would say you are a normal person who needs help with one thing or the other just like almost everyone else. - Jeff7Tracey, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0It is a COMPLETE ABOMINATION, before the living God, for a man to lie with a man or a woman with a woman. You don't have the ability to have a standard of right or wrong apart from God, none of us do.
- DanielFTL, on 09/28/2009, -0/+0Wow, this is like two years old. Clearly some of you believe that you can come out of homosexuality. Well, two years later I maintain that it is not possible. You might stop having sexual relations with a member of the same sex, but that doesn't make you less homosexual and it doesn't make you heterosexual either. I went for long periods without having sex and also had a period when I had sex with members of the opposite sex, but alas, I am still homosexual and not even praying away the gay help (and boy did I try).
As for deliverance from homosexuality, that must have been a god send for you and bully for you. However, if you ever find yourself with those same old desires that never seem to really go away, just remember that there are support organizations around to help you learn
to accept yourself as you are. - skyscape, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0Statistics of Homosexuality
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502263/posts
Homsoxuality, in my opinion, is a lifestyle of death. It praises death in all sides of life - intothemix18, on 09/28/2009, -0/+0OK!!!!! first off I want to say that deliverance from homosexuality is possible because I use to be homosexual myself but GOD delivered me. I don't know when the fact went around that it is not possible to turn straight in other words but it is!!!!! Some of you really need to read the Holy Bible and read how that homosexuality is a abomination to the world. For yes no sin is greater than another but homosexuality is a abomination. Don't you know that people die every year not living to fulfill they true calling and do you know where they go??? I 'am not trying to judge anyone at all because I'm not God but I know for a fact that you cannot make it into heaven being with the same sex. Some of you on here really have to take the lids off your eyes and stop looking from just your on point of view and start to look from all points and expanding your mind. How do you know that God is real if you never try him??? That's like me saying weed don't get you high but How can I know that unless I have tried it??? Think people Think......
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0Well, I can see a lot of ignorance and misinformation being flung around here, and it's obviously a result of individual experience either with Christians and ex-gays. Why does there have to be so much hate for ex-gays? It's just as vicious as the hate some people have for gays. Can't people accept that some individuals have grown to realize that the gay lifestyle was not intended for them, and they sought a way out as a result? Perhaps it's because they developed a relationship with God, or perhaps they just felt an emptiness that the lifestyle could not fill. Does it really matter? The ex-gay movement is not based on hate. It is based on the belief that people need to know that change IS possible! Some of the things ex-gays or ex-gay supporters say may come off as harsh, but hey, sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire, because that is exactly what the gay community and supporters throw at the ex-gays. I don't think people should take offense to what this man said in his article about the gay lifestyle. He saw it was based on lust, and felt it was wrong. Why is that bad? And why is it bad that he has developed a spiritual life? Just because the Christian church has been filled with many liars and hypocrites doesn't mean that everyone is. There are plenty of true, loving believers out there. Accept that some people have developed a relationship with God, and they are happy for it. Their beliefs deserve just as much respect as anybody else's.
And people need to accept the fact that people are not born homosexual. There is no scientific proof for a genetic basis for homosexuality. There have been some biased and incredibly faulty studies on the subject (many done by gays themselves). These are just tiny morsels of information that barely qualify as fact that people cling to so that homosexuality can be justified. There has been, on the other hand, plenty of legitimate research done that provides evidence for a psychological and developmental basis of homosexuality. Yes, there is a biological component to it, but it is limited to personality traits that serve as a predisposition to developing same sex attractions. But the bottom line is, homosexuality develops from a disconnect from men, and same sex attractions are a well-meaning attempt to bridge that gap. It's unfortunate that so many people don't realize there are other ways to fulfill that need for acceptance, affirmation, and approval by other men besides homosexual activity. A good source of information on the subject is narth.com and books by Joseph Nicolosi. Earlier somebody asked for a non-religious organization or source about ex-gays. See: peoplecanchange.com.
The bottom line is this: the ex-gay movement is not based on hate for gays or homophobia. It seeks, instead, to spread awareness that there are other options for one's life. If a person isn't happy with his or her life, that person has every right to evaluate other options. Just because a person leaves the gay community doesn't automatically make that person homophobic. That person deserves every bit of acceptance that gay people have been given. Don't be a hypocrite and spread hatred for a group that isn't the norm. In terms of acceptance in society, it seems the ex-gay community is way behind the gay community. This needs to stop. Every person deserves love and acceptance, and everyone person deserves the right to do what he or she sees fit. Don't see a person leaving the gay lifestyle as offensive. See it, instead, as a person just seeking a better life. That person's definition of a better life may be different than yours, but don't deny that person's right to seek it. - HumbleHank, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1I can understand your anger and frustration. The biggest problem isn't shut mouths or traps as you call them, the problem is that too many traps are open on BOTH SIDES spewing things that are not consistent with the Scripture, God or the Truth. That noise makes it hard for the TRUTH of GOD, SCRIPTURE, SIN and JESUS CHRIST to be heard or understood. The Truth is God looks at ALL sin - yours AND MINE - and sees them the same ugly rebellion against Him and His ways. I am no better than a homosexual and a homosexual is no worse a sinner than me. In God's eyes - SIN is SIN. We are ALL in the same boat there. The difference comes in the Person of Jesus Christ. There are those who use His name to validate the worst of behaviors, beliefs and practices. Consequently, ALL Christians are thrown out as included in that 'bunch' and the TRUE MESSAGE of Christianity is lost as the baby is thrown out with the bathwater.
I would ask that you read the rest of my comments included above before you make the generalizations you are making. As far as 'raise your kids and live your life by the Bible if you want'. I would love nothing more, but when groups press Hate Crimes Legislation that treat ANY speech against homosexuality as deserving of harsher punishment, and seek to silence the use of ALL Scripture in Churches - specifically those dealing with homosexuality- and groups seek to FORCE the teaching of homosexuality in schools to children without the approval or in defiance of the disapproval of parents, it makes raising my kids and living my life by the Bible more difficult.
I can understand you may see this as "Christians persecute homosexuals, this is just returning the favor", but the Truth is that there is ONLY ONE Author of TRUTH and right in wrong in the universe. I know I'm not Him - You are not either. It is for that reason that I try to explain the need of people to seek the TRUTH instead of letting our emotions and peer pressure keep us from exploring the TRUTH with an open mind.
If once you have been exposed to the TRUTH, not picket signs, not shouting hordes, not propaganda against Christians, but the TRUTH, if you decide to continue in a homosexual life and hold the beliefs you hold, then that is your choice. I would simply ask that you not take the picket signs, the shouting voices, the verses used on street corners as CHRISTIANITY - that may be people quoting parts of the BIBLE - IT IS NOT CHRISTIANITY.
The Bible is CLEAR that God considers homosexuality a sin - He also considers as sin sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman, rape, adultery, murder, hate, stealing, falsehood, lies, dishonoring His name, placing anything or anyone in a higher priority than HIM and much, much more. A TRUE CHRISTIAN will see the need to see as sin ALL that God calls sin and to discourage those behaviors - understanding that we too must struggle against those sins that we ourselves can fall prey to.
Let me assure you, GOD IS REAL!! HE LOVES YOU and wants nothing more than to have you share eternity with Him. He has given us ALL the instruction manual on the process to achieve that. He's willing to help. He doesn't expect us to be able to do it on our own - BUT HE DOES EXPECT US TO TRY. Please look past the anger and frustration and consider ALL that I am saying here and above.
Humble Hank - markh1963, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0Now that it has been discovered that Glatze has been baptized in the Mormon Church, it will be interesting to see how many evangelicals will suddenly drop him from their "proof homosexuality can be cured through Christ" theory since it is widely believed Mormons are not "real" Christians by fundamental evangelicals.
- Bengali, on 10/11/2007, -0/+0May your life be filled with misery and self-hatred, too! Although behavior can be changed, albeit often with substantial costs to the psyche, sexual orientation cannot. The writer has not changed his orientation. He has merely denied part of who he is. He can claim to have changed his thoughts and his behavior, but only he knows the truth of the matter. If he changed his behavior once, he can change it again. But he cannot change his sexual orientation.
Many if not most gays struggle with identity issues, not because it is inherently wrong to be gay, but because society and many religions condemn it. Given that reality, who could make a logical case for "deciding" to be gay????
This man's struggle with his identity is not over. -
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