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156 Comments
- jleopold, on 04/25/2009, -3/+71It's people like Bob Baer who should be dominating the conversation on the cable news networks when it comes to the crime of torture. Not the John Boehner's or Kit Bond's of the world.
- MercyPolitics, on 04/25/2009, -3/+61I will put it in a very simple equation: " Harsh interrogation techniques"= Torture= A crime as defined by the Geneva Convention. Not only it is a crime, but it doesn't provide ANY good intelligence.
I think Bob Baer should be running the CIA. We need a massive clean up within the agency. - digg4peace, on 04/25/2009, -2/+47Seems to me Bob Baer would make an excellent expert witness for the prosecution.
- CosmicSurfer, on 04/25/2009, -2/+39Bob Baer as well as
1. Jonathan Turley, Professor of Law, George Washington University,
2. Former FBI Interrogator Jack Cloonan
3.Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003
4. Retired military leaders Major General Paul D. Eaton, Major General Fred E. Haynes and Brigadier General James P. Cullen – working with HUMAN RIGHTS FIRST
5.Darius Rejali, professor of political science at Reed College, Portland, Oregon wrote (2007) “Torture and Democracy"
6. "Matthew Alexander" assumed name of the Air Force interrogator that actually led the interrogators that found Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq....NO torture...just good old fashioned relationship building; Author of "How to Break a Terrorist: The U.S. Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq."
A technique the US discovered worked back in WWII when they used the game of chess as a means of getting information from Germans captured in the field - novenator, on 04/25/2009, -4/+36Torture has never been an effective means of information extraction. 24 may have been a decently produced suspenseful show, but the 'harsh interrogation' methods employed on it would never yield useful results.
- clvngodess, on 04/25/2009, -8/+37Um... I'm in agreement about torture, it must not happen. However, I just heard something equally disturbing in this segment regarding Pakistan, Taliban and "our" involvement there. "We" are going to lose Pakistan? Wait. It's not OURS in the first place. And what the hell is this "spreading democrazy myth?" That is NOT the task of the United States. Sigh....
- sarahlee, on 04/26/2009, -4/+28Everyone else (other nations) says it is. We publicly determined it was when we executed Japanese soldiers who waterboarded American soldiers because it was torture.
We don't get to change the definition because we got caught doing it.
The road to recovery, requires we honestly admit where we went wrong and then go forward with the intention to not do wrong again. - MercyPolitics, on 04/25/2009, -1/+22To watch another interview of Bob Baer from 2007. Go to:
http://digg.com/political_opinion/Former_CIA_Baer_ ... - GamerSDG, on 04/25/2009, -3/+22They classified this as War on Terror, so they should have to follow the Geneva Convention. Which states that they are not allow to tortures POW's and there for, The Bush Administration should face war crimes.
- Batfishy, on 04/26/2009, -1/+20Yep, because that's the only other option.
Your narrow-mindedness is peaking out. - Schmich, on 04/26/2009, -2/+21Effective or not, I don't even see how anyone can support torture. If you can't draw the line there then you're mentally unable to draw the line anywhere. What's next? Torturing children because they might have information?
- inactive, on 04/25/2009, -1/+20What is specially ludicrous about the ticking nuclear bomb scenario is this:
If the planets all aligned in a perfect order so that the impossible could occur,
that we know there is a bomb in an American city
and somehow we know when it is going to detonate
and we have clear evidence that a man detained by us knows the location of the bomb
In that one in a billion case, we wouldn't need a law. If whoever held this man tortures him and saved a US city, don't you think that he would get a Presidential pardon?
We already have the means to deal with the spectacularly unlikely event. - Doxocopa, on 04/26/2009, -2/+16Torture is something a Christian culture based society shouldn’t allow... please, stop and think: where are we heading for? – To barbarian times? - What will our grandchildren think about our present generation with its "culture of death"?
By allowing torture, US authorities are really no different from the Talibans, are they? - inactive, on 04/25/2009, -4/+18If Pakistan "falls" to the Taliban, that means that many people in Pakistan, certainly a majority of the baluchis prefer that government.
The Taliban are not international terrorists, they are a national movement that opposes westernization and corruption.
Are we somehow given the global authority to decide that only western style democracies are to be allowed in the world. BS. Its none of our business.
As far as the nukes go....
There is no reason to think that the Taliban leaders will be any less responsible than the last various Pakistani governments. Understand that if they were to use nukes, it would not be against the USA. We are not the perfect center of the universe. Their enemy is India.
And finally, if the seventyfive billion dollars that we give the spooks is worth anything
and the fifty billion to special operations and the 150 billion that we give to the Air Force is worth anything, can't we destroy their nukes?
If not, it seems like we waste a whole lot of money for nothing. - xXMetalJesusXx, on 04/26/2009, -1/+15It's not about whether it works or not...
If America is using torture to protect itself, then it's already lost. It gave up the rights and freedoms that made it the country it is today. - EgoShowcase, on 04/27/2009, -0/+14Mirror
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/real-t ... - hawkspur, on 04/26/2009, -3/+17In addition to convicting Japanese soldiers to hard labor for waterboarding, a Texas Sheriff was sentenced for doing it to prisoners as well. It's illegal, immoral, and torture.
- Thoku, on 04/26/2009, -0/+13One thing I don't get is why the debate is about whether it was worth it or not? Surely thats not the point. The crux of the issue is that it is illegal and the people responsible should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If the issue was about genocide or any other illegal activity then the question wouldn't be whether it was worth it but who the hell is going to jail for this.
Also, on a second point, as soon as the US start changing their laws and their basic freedoms the terrorists have already won. Things like the patriot act and now this torture issue is slowly but surely turning the country away from its basic principles which is what the terrorists want to happen. - seventhc, on 04/26/2009, -1/+14If it isn't torture why did they give your friend a 'less intense version" of it? Why not do the real full version of it?
- inactive, on 04/26/2009, -2/+14So far, ONLY ONE TV NETWORK (to my knowledge) has clearly and publicly denounced torture. (It's MSNBC.)
ALL OF THE OTHERS, as far as I can tell, have been acting and continue to act as TORTURE APOLOGISTS, at best remaining silent or even allowing people like Dick Cheney to try to justify and/or deny the fact that the United States DID TORTURE PRISONERS. That is not just according to me... it's according to The International Red Cross.
Here's one online source for that info... there are many more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/16/terror/m ...
Please do three things:
1. Contact any three news organizations that have failed to denounce torture and tell them that their editorial silence on torture is immoral and unacceptable.
2. Search the recent postings on Digg that contain the word "torture" and vote them up (as long as they're not trying to deny the facts or justify the use of torture.)
3. Spread this message.
Many Americans don't buy the explanation that torture is okay if it gets valuable information, believing instead the torture is simply WRONG. Torture also gets prisoners to say what they think you want to hear... NOT to necessarily tell you the truth. - Batfishy, on 04/26/2009, -4/+16"I really can't call waterboarding torture, its discomfort."
You aren't the decider, either. - dijkstra22, on 04/26/2009, -0/+12Yes they will, but I'd like to think that some of humanity has a moral compass that guides us past the "Well he did it first" argument. Such is war? Really?
- inactive, on 04/26/2009, -0/+11"I'm a Righty with complete awareness of the issues."
And yet you are always, unfailingly, utterly wrong on all of them.
Your statements are always good for a laugh, but they never seem to be consistent. You're often incoherent, and you totally lack logical debate skills. That you think you do doesn't surprise me. I surmise you suffer from a cognitive bias known as the Dunning-Kruger effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect
You think you're smart, but you really are not. - inactive, on 04/26/2009, -2/+13I don't understand. Drowning is one of the more painful ways to die. How would drowning someone without killing them constitute discomfort and not incredible pain?
- inactive, on 04/26/2009, -0/+10What the ***** does torture have to do with extracting information? You seem to be incredibly confused. Torture does not produce reliable information. That's not its purpose. I don't know where this notion that torture is used to generate intelligence came from, because it does not work.
- alienufo, on 04/26/2009, -0/+10everyone involved (except for Bush Admin peeps that are covering their own ass) has said that KSM gave up almost all of the "intelligence" that he gave under traditional interrogation methods. These methods have been VERY successful over many decades and we have plenty of people in the FBI and CIA who are trained experts. All of the experts say traditional methods are MUCH more effective at getting verifiable intelligence than torture.
- dijkstra22, on 04/26/2009, -1/+11I guess you lack critical thinking skills.
- sirloin, on 04/26/2009, -0/+8they used to water board people to get them to admit to being witches.
how is this supposed to help again?
geneerally through out history that is how it was used
to get you to denouse yourself
to get you to say you worked with satan.
to get you to say things that arent real
and the right want you to belive that it is more effective and tried and torture methods.
also dont forget mccain said he would ban waterbaordign and even was the athor of the anti torture law.. so whith all the rights bluster abotu making us less safe, they offered us an anti torture dude as well. - inactive, on 04/26/2009, -0/+8This is a war we can't win directly. We win by cutting off their sources of recruitment. We do this by showing that we are better than them. People seem to forget that, while the terrorists are unrelenting killing machines who can't be reasoned with, the only possible way they can keep thriving is by drawing in a constant source of young people who can be brainwashed into supporting their cause.
- enclaved, on 04/26/2009, -1/+9No dijkstra, he's just an idiot.
- funkyloki, on 04/26/2009, -1/+9Oh, that's just great, they do it so we should too. Slippery slope, my friend, slippery indeed.
- digg4peace, on 04/26/2009, -1/+9unfortunately Christianity and torture have a long and brutal history together...the inquisition, the crusades...burning women as witches... all of those "good" southern Christians that made a past time of lynching, burning and beating people of color.....and of course there was never an administration in the history of our country that proclaimed the identity of Christianity more strongly than George W. Bush's...to an outside observer it would almost seem that torture might be one of the tenets of the faith...
- SpinningHead, on 04/26/2009, -0/+7Are you saying we need to be more like the Soviet KGB?
- malex, on 04/26/2009, -0/+7Poprock, I'm sure you mean that just as sincerely as you think it was wrong to shoot pirates holding a hostage.
You don't even have an opinion beyond "if a Democrat is for/against it, I must be against/for it." - rmxz, on 04/26/2009, -1/+7Torture is something ANY culture shouldn't allow.
But if there were a culture that tolerated torture, I wouldn't be too surprised if it's a some branch of a Christian one, reading some biblical passages out of context. Here's an example of someone taking out-of-context bible passages that some crazy sects might use to justify torture: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/tortu ... - bsmang, on 04/26/2009, -1/+7Your comment is so full of all kinds of stupid that it doesn't even deserve to be refuted by anything more than this comment.
- temujin1234, on 04/26/2009, -0/+6If you trust the government enough to let it torture people, you have more faith in big government than most communists.
- inactive, on 04/26/2009, -1/+6I'm confused. You seem outraged at a standard procedure used in the delivery of stillbirths. I mean, yeah, it's sad that the baby is dead and all, but sometimes these things have to be done. Maybe it's a little upsetting to see the body treated that way, but I really don't see what's morally wrong about cutting open a dead body.
- DestroyedAUS, on 04/26/2009, -1/+6Christian based? Like the crusades? It has nothing to do with religion. It is a practise that any HUMAN(E) society shouldn't allow.
- SavardAlex, on 04/26/2009, -0/+5Theres a large gap between a cold meal and putting someone through the terrifying feeling of drowning.
Plus you cant suffer from post-traumatic stress, broken bones and dry drowning from a late meal.
In addition, IF i did provide some sort of usable good solid intel, it might in some circumstances be justified, although thats a touchy ethical discussion.
But if it gives nothing, its useless. Diminishing it to a comparison with cold food is classic far right nonsense. - charlie6969, on 04/26/2009, -0/+5Actually, the country it WAS! As in, WAS respected by the world.
Now, the world can't say the USA is a moral and law-abiding country, nor can we citizens.Not until we investigate and prosecute those that think they are above the law, in this country.
Otherwise, we are just talking to ourselves..... - funkyloki, on 04/26/2009, -1/+6You two are both asshats. First of all, we indicted the Japanese officers who ordered and carried out waterboarding during WWII. If it was torture then, it's torture now. And mikeinto, the majority of Americans do not feel that way.
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=polls+waterboarding+is+to ...
A majority feel it is torture, while a minority say it is ok to do it. Way to twist those stats. - inactive, on 04/26/2009, -1/+5 There is some really screwed up people these days. Our nation has lost it's moral center. I can't believe this topic is taken seriously. This is not the America I have been proud of for taking the high ground. America is no more.
- TheSwashbuckler, on 04/26/2009, -0/+4If you define "works" as "you get the answer you want to hear"...
- CeeAyy, on 04/27/2009, -0/+4According to Americas own judgement, torture is illegal. Bsmang is probably right about you, but I'm trying to explain at least a small part to you.
- CeeAyy, on 04/26/2009, -1/+5I'll disregard your attempt to be a troll and jump to the point... The majority of the nation doesn't not think that torture is good.
- m3arvk, on 04/26/2009, -1/+5Talking about whether is works or not is playing into their hands; it's merely the way they want to couch the debate. Why don't we stop talking about its workability and start talking about its legality?
- CeeAyy, on 04/26/2009, -0/+4It was not hypocritical to say that torture doesn't work for extracting information while also having said that torture can be a deterrent (if that indeed was his point or if he even stated that in the past).
- CeeAyy, on 04/27/2009, -0/+4It has already been defined. Water boarding is torture. It was a crime when it was done to Americans by the Japanese and it is wrong for the US to do according to the Geneva convention.
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