What is Digg?108 Comments
- Frei, on 11/08/2007, -1/+59I get the feeling that many of the things being "debated" over th past few years are surreal. If worse I'd say is the lack of a debate on the evidence leading up to the invasion of Iraq.
- k0rd, on 11/08/2007, -1/+39Waterboarding is illegal under the Geneva Convention, why can so many other countries follow it, just not the World Police?
- Terr01, on 11/07/2007, -1/+23"But what about the ticking time bomb scenario?"
That entire argument is well-worn scaremongering *****. That's exactly what a Presidential Freaking Pardon is for.
Is it a "plain old day"? THEN FOLLOW THE RULES. Play cowboy only when you have good reason.
I anticipate your next response: "What if there's a nuke and we don't know it?", you ask.
To obsess over the unknowable danger is paranoia. - obliviousfool, on 11/07/2007, -1/+21The last seven years or so have been completely surreal! At this point I'm just glad children aren't turning their parents in to the authorities for reading books or something.
- minoss, on 11/07/2007, -1/+19You're entirely missing the point. Torture, while undoubtedly cruel, DOESN'T ***** WORK. Oh, and it's against the law.
- inactive, on 11/06/2007, -2/+18Uh, right. Because they are demanding the Bush regime declare it torture, and they refuse?
You rightards are ridiculous. At what point will you accept that the GOP supports whatever President ***** wants? - m0laria, on 11/06/2007, -1/+16If it wasn't for the laws of physics my foot would be in your ass.
- brentris, on 11/06/2007, -0/+14torture is an ineffective way of getting information.
- ElectricMunk, on 11/06/2007, -4/+17You think it has just become sureal since W came to town.... google for "Bush child sex ring" .... Find out about Jeff Gannon (the male prostitute who was a shill in the White House press corp who is likely a child kidnapped long ago named Johnny Gosch).
Then watch this video which was supposed to be aired on the Discovery channel in 1994 but was pulled and all known copies were destroyed (guess they missed a few). It links the Bush Sr White house with a pedophile sex ring. You think this is sensationalized rubbish but there is a ***** of information (documented) about this.
Check out "Bohemian Grove"...this is not just Alex Jones conspiracy theory. Bill Clinton admitted knowing about it recently in a video confrontation about 9/11. There is so much going on that you would assume it is all *****...until you dig more and see the over arching reality is that there is an insane amount of this going on.
My assumption is that these sex rings and other abuses are ways to coerce people into doing whatever you want them to do later on. A couple of photos of you in bed with a live boy or a dead girl will do wonders as blackmail material. I personally think it starts in these secret societies (skull and bones, et al) where the blackmail and drugs, alcohol, women, boys, whatever starts. Then it gets progressively worse the further into the inner circle you get.
Or maybe I am wrong....I really wish I was wrong..... Google "Army Presidio molestation" and read about the cover up at the day care center
http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/archive ... Washington Times article about the White House involvement in the incident
http://www.tedgunderson.com/ Former FBI agent Ted Gunderson who worked missing and exploited children ... god help us all
Or google "Dynacorp women children" .... go team!
/going to go to bed and pretend these people aren't as ***** up as they are
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-772596669 ... - Racerx52, on 11/07/2007, -1/+12I'd quickly confess to the holocaust if tortured.
When you start force-feeding detainees, the only thing you're going to get out of them is ***** - f34nor, on 11/07/2007, -1/+11OK how about this? Did you know that the Nazi's required Heinrich Himmler's sig. to preform water-boarding? That means they thought it was bad, bad enough to do some very serious paper work to be able to do and guess what they're Nazis! So I think you're an idiot for one of three reasons. A: You're an idiot because you think that its OK to exact revenge on people. Or B: You're an idiot because you think that torture produces results. Which according to any expert on the subject it does not. Or C: You're an idiot because you are so morally lazy that you can't examine your past believes and see that you were wrong and change your mind to match the facts.
Your basic premise is complaining about the US torturing people is blowing a nothing problem out of proportion. Well guess what? Your argument is both inane and completely without merit. All of our successful prosecution against terrorists have used existing laws. All attempts by the administration to expand their powers for the prosecution of an endless war have been shown to be illegal. Our president is NOT sworn to protect us, he is sworn to UPHOLD the Constitution. So your opinion is in fact basically traitorous because you; a coward, are more concerned with your own well being and that of your friends then that of the country and the rule of law.
"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." or as paraphrased "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither" -Benjamin Franklin - polydigm, on 11/06/2007, -2/+12bottom line, if a member of my family were incarcerated by the cia, and treated to "duress interrogation" i would feel completely justified in locating the nearest elected republican representative and disemboweling him. then id have a party and serve his liver as a patte
- PATSCRU, on 11/06/2007, -2/+11wow, is that ron paul on your avatar? and you're advocating torture? you people never cease to amaze me.
- Napoleone, on 11/06/2007, -2/+11There are countless ways in which a person can be tortured. Must the Congress delineate each method, or is it not more prudent for it to instead define what constitutes torture? Water-boarding clearly falls under the under the universally accepted definition of torture.
And you clearly fall under the definition of a political hack. - ZenMojo, on 11/06/2007, -0/+9Khalid gave up a bunch of names which no one will tell us about and which have yet to lead to any actual captures. Likewise, he has not actually led to any terrorist plots which the United States has stopped. Suspicious?
- rz8472, on 11/07/2007, -2/+10In the 'ticking bomb scenario' (which will almost certainly never happen). We'll waterboard this guy until he tells us what we WANT to hear (and lies), and we'll misdirect valuable resources to the wrong target and - unlike in 24 - Jack Bauer screws up bigtime.
- fuzzyfuzz, on 11/06/2007, -1/+8I don't get it. Ten years ago if you would have asked anyone this question they would have said "yeah that's horrible torture, definitely not legal anywhere anytime." now all of a sudden there is a debate? in fact before this "debate" i had never heard of waterboarding and had always heard it called "Chinese water torture" or water torture. what the ***** is wrong with these people? now trying to defend themselves.
- d2002, on 11/07/2007, -0/+7US soldiers used waterboarding in WWI, and when they came home, they started using it on American civilians.
http://www.wisebread.com/the-self-preservation-arg ...
That scares the crap out of me. - mllawso, on 11/08/2007, -0/+7I think there might a few people in "Log cabins" that would take offense to what you've said.
- ZenMojo, on 11/08/2007, -1/+7This reminds me of George H.W. Bush crying (again) yesterday and talking about how American soldiers used to capture the enemy and politely explain that the enemy was not going to be harmed. You really picked the wrong son for office, didn't you?
- Karmavs, on 11/07/2007, -2/+8And there is absolutely no way of sifting the wheat from the chaff, other than investigating it all as if it's true. You're better off with no idea than the wrong idea.
- nreynolds, on 11/07/2007, -1/+7he's absolutely not a Ron Paul fan. Go to any of the stories about Ron Paul this week and it's just him being an idiot about how everyone that supports Ron Paul is a moron. He even calls Ron Paul a liberal. Trust me, he's dumb as hell.
- Drahkar, on 11/08/2007, -0/+5Exactly. I just wish that Congress would grow some balls and impeach all the individuals responsible for these crimes so that they can be tried for war crimes. They are traitors and sick bastards who are dirtying our country and ruining life for the rest of us by trashing our rights.
- Syvl, on 11/06/2007, -0/+5You're doin it wrong.
- ZenMojo, on 11/07/2007, -1/+6Interrogation's not a WEAPON, interrogation is a TOOL. Torture is a weapon. There's a reason why confessions are inadmissible under duress. Would we treat a mass-murderer any differently than a terrorist?
- inactive, on 11/07/2007, -1/+6Dantooine. The rebel base is on Dantooine.
- obliviousfool, on 11/07/2007, -1/+6Here is a list of the things Kahlid Sheik Mohammed has confessed to. I hope you are sitting down.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6452789.stm
(source)
List of confessions
All of these plots also can be referred as 'Second Oplan Bojinka'.
* The February 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City
* A failed "shoe bomber" operation
* The October 2002 attack in Kuwait
* The nightclub bombing in Bali, Indonesia
* A plan for a "second wave" of attacks on major U.S. landmarks to be set in the spring or summer of 2002 after the 9/11 attacks, which includes more hijackings of commercial airlines and having them flown into various buildings in the U.S. including the Library Tower in Los Angeles, the Sears Tower in Chicago, the Plaza Bank building in Seattle and the Empire State Building in New York
* Plots to attack oil tankers and U.S. naval ships in the Straits of Hormuz, the Straits of Gibraltar and in Singapore
* A plan to blow up the Panama Canal
* Plans to assassinate former U.S. presidents
* A plot to blow up suspension bridges in New York City
* A plan to destroy the Sears Tower in Chicago with burning fuel trucks
* Plans to "destroy" Heathrow Airport, Canary Wharf and Big Ben in London
* A planned attack on "many" nightclubs in Thailand
* A plot targeting the New York Stock Exchange and other U.S. financial targets
* A plan to destroy buildings in Eilat, Israel
* Plans to destroy U.S. embassies in Indonesia, Australia and Japan in 2002.
* Plots to destroy Israeli embassies in India, Azerbaijan, the Philippines and Australia
* Surveying and financing an attack on an Israeli El-Al flight from Bangkok
* Sending several "mujahideen" into Israel to survey "strategic targets" with the intention of attacking them
* The November 2002 suicide bombing of a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya
* The failed attempt to shoot down an Israeli passenger jet leaving Mombasa airport in Kenya
* Plans to attack U.S. targets in South Korea
* Providing financial support for a plan to attack U.S., British and Jewish targets in Turkey
* Surveillance of U.S. nuclear power plants in order to attack them
* A plot to attack NATO's headquarters in Europe
* Planning and surveillance in a 1995 plan (the "Bojinka Operation") to bomb 12 American passenger jets
* The planned assassination attempt against then-U.S. President Bill Clinton during a mid-1990s trip to the Philippines.
* "Shared responsibility" for a plot to kill Pope John Paul II
* Plans to assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf
* An attempt to attack a U.S. oil company in Sumatra, Indonesia, "owned by the Jewish former [U.S.] Secretary of State Henry Kissinger"
* The beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl - ZenMojo, on 11/06/2007, -0/+4You need to end that with one of these.... /sarcasm
- ilikecoke, on 11/08/2007, -0/+4Want to see a lot of people change their minds in a hurry? Have everyone that says it isn't torture agree to have it done to them. (of course, they will all find some excuse as why they can't do this) That would instantly put to rest the question.
- d2002, on 11/06/2007, -0/+4Maybe that's what George Bush thought too when he OKed it.
- johndi, on 11/06/2007, -0/+4You quote Gandhi and advocate torture. I get the feeling you don't believe anything you say and are spouting tripe to get a rise out of people.
- johndi, on 11/06/2007, -0/+4That's one of the least discussed aspects of torture. It harms the interrogators as well as the person being tortured. You can't train people to be so inhumane without them being psychologically damaged. The interrogator can become worse than what they accuse the suspect of being. Even if it was effective it wouldn't be worth it.
- robberry, on 11/07/2007, -0/+4"I support waterboarding as an effective means of extracting information from criminals and enemies of the State."
Then you haven't done your homework. As with all forms of torture, waterboarding is an effective means of extracting *confessions*, but a poor means of extracting *information*. - mllawso, on 11/07/2007, -0/+4Would you serve it with a fine chianti?
- colto, on 11/06/2007, -1/+4I have a feeling 95% of the people who read that won't know what you are talking about.
- deuceswilde, on 11/06/2007, -0/+3Minoss has exactly the right idea. Torture rarely leads to any kind of useful information, most people under torture are aware of the fact that the interrogator knows nothing, and that any information is likely to get them to stop. So people under torture say anything, agree with anything, make things up just to get it to stop. If the information collected were accurate then the argument would have much more base, but the truth is the only way to prevent a 'ticking time bomb' is to stop it from ever getting to that point in the first place, and that can only come through good intelligence.
- arjie, on 11/06/2007, -0/+3They don't taste as good. No seriously, because the current administration is Republican? From outside, it doesn't look like the Democrats are a whole lot better though.
- tsalti, on 11/07/2007, -2/+5Haven't you guys seen an episode of 24?
- LouisEdith, on 11/06/2007, -0/+3 Not only is it surreal - it is ludicrous that they were discussing Water boarding - whether its legal or not legal - we all know it is illegal! I think it is more of the same - DIVERSION. More important - Is the new AG willing to provide the information that Congress tried to get from Gonzo? What is he going to do about the politicization of the AG office? Is he going to uphold the law? Is he willing to work independently of the White House? Just another Bush stooge as far as I can tell.
- epicstruggle, on 11/06/2007, -1/+4"An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind." -- Mahatma Gandhi
- razor150, on 11/07/2007, -1/+4I think Republicans believe that if you start "debating" on whether or not something is legal it suddenly makes it legal. Waterboarding has a legal precedent calling it torture and illegal. The whole debate is a distraction to keep people's eyes off a practice that is illegal so people in the Whitehouse don't go to prison.
- cyberwiz01, on 11/07/2007, -1/+3I never thought a Star Wars quote could be so relevant to a discussion.
- Murdats, on 11/06/2007, -0/+1this sounds more like a family for a republican patte.
- GawtMilk, on 11/06/2007, -1/+2I'm studying different kinds of logical fallacies right now, and I see quite a lot of them in this video. I remain skeptical about the Bill Clinton comment and the "sex ring" comment...there's just not enough evidence. Why haven't any of these people come forward?
- f34nor, on 11/06/2007, -1/+2Ron Paul is a Republican he is not a populist racist Dixiecrat. After the Goldwater election the names of the parties changed over time culminating in Regan's election. 42 is a Dixiecrat has has nothing to do with the party of Lincoln.
- schweeet, on 11/06/2007, -1/+2Isn't it the same with everything that should be one way but isn't? The authoritative characters deny that X is bad and the average joe gradually starts to believe that things are as they say. These surreal debates pop up every now and then. They shouldn't need to be debated but they are, because moronic leaders twist everything to their advantage, and X is being debated forever while the morons keep practicing X. I'm frustrated.
- inactive, on 11/06/2007, -0/+1That's what she said!
- MrStoned1, on 11/06/2007, -0/+1ok, for some reason when i edited my reply, both version ended up here.
reported to admins. - robberry, on 11/06/2007, -1/+2And fava beans. Mustn't forget the fava beans.
- Murdats, on 11/06/2007, -2/+3it is illegal, under the US constitution and the geneva convention aswell as a nice handful of other laws here and there
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