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138 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+58http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003473083_webtrees11.html
I believe this article may be a response to the 'holiday trees' at the Sea-Tac airport in Seattle. You'll also notice that they are referred to as 'holiday trees.' Ben Stein's argument is that this notion is silly. Call them what they are: "Christmas Trees." He is also stating this from a Jewish prospective and simply noting that the existence of Christmas does not offend or intimidate him, as a Jewish person, in any way.
In light of that, if it makes you feel all warm and squishy inside to call it a 'straw-man' argument, go right ahead. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -10/+59Did you read the article or could you not get past the description?
- masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+38My take on Christmas trees is that they're tradition. In Japan, they still have dozens of festivals celebrating all sorts of gods and myths and legends, even though the majority don't believe them, anymore. But just because they don't believe them, anymore, doesn't mean that they can't relax and have a fun time at a festival that has roots deep in tradition. Likewise, anyone who complains about a "Christmas" tree because it has "Christmas" in its name is a prejudiced imbecile that needs to sit down and realize that while the holiday was originally a Christian holiday (actually, it was pagan, but then it was turned into a Christian holiday), hundreds of millions of secular people celebrate it happily because it's a nice holiday to have. At this point in time, "Christmas" is no longer exclusively a religious holiday, similar to how the English word "holiday" has nothing to do with religion anymore (HOLYday), either.
- Jagdhund, on 10/12/2007, -9/+37Ben Stein is a bastion of sanity and rationality, if you often read what he has to say. He is very reasonable.
- Jagdhund, on 10/12/2007, -11/+34@ xtmno3
You belittle his statement that he feels more hostility from atheists than Christians (through his statements about the tree, etc.), and laugh when he says he is sick of having ideas forced down his throat. After that, you proceed to shamelessly promote Dick Dawkins.
Sure, you don't have to respect one another's religion, but neither do you have to attack it at every turn. I'm sorry, but the Christians I know don't force their beliefs on other people. However, the atheists online seem to be more than happy to promote their own ideas with offensive comments and the red digg button on anyone saying anything good about religion. Yes, I think religious people are sick of it.
Other than that little hiccup, I think Ben Stein has great points. Go ahead and read his other posts. They're very calm and insightful. - striker87, on 10/12/2007, -5/+25Glad to hear Ben Stein feels this way. I mean, I certainly wouldn't go to Israel and complain about menorahs and how everyone celebrates Hanukkah.
- chriskzoo, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24It's not, but there is a growing vocal minority that wants "Freedom OF religion" in the Constitution interpreted as "Freedom FROM religion." Hey, I consider myself agnostic, but I do think that the morals taught in Church/Synagogue are not a bad thing. Love they neighbor, don't cheat on your wife, etc. - there's nothing wrong with that.
- timlee, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19@MiddleGirth
I doubt that it was an explicit response to that article considering Ben wrote this in 12/18/2005 and the article is dated 12/11/2006. I mean Ben Stein is smart and all but I doubt he could see a year in to the future.
That's on top of the fact that the article refers to them as Christmas trees in the title. Holiday trees are just describing trees that pop up around the December holiday season. That said, I'm sure that there are articles cropping up about "holiday trees" every year around this time. - gundammman2, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12I'm as athiest as they come and I don't care if a Christian says Merry Christmas or a Jew says Happy Chanukah to me. That is their right to express their beliefs, just as it is mine to say Happy Holiday's or Season's greetings. Nobody should give a ***** what we as humans chose to say. And the Christmas...oops...holiday tree is not exclusively a Christian symbol.
- lokai, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10The more we all try to be politically correct, the worse we all become. I say Merry Christmas and I put up a Christmas Tree in my home, damn it. If I wish you a Merry Christmas say "Thank You" in response; I was only trying to be nice. If you celebrate something else, my wishing you a Merry Christmas does not change into something mean.
- Xinareiaz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Merry Christmas!
- hohead, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8To be more specific, the Christmas Tree is actually more of a pagan symbol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Christmas_tree_and_other_decorations
"The Christmas tree is often explained as a Christianization of pagan tradition and ritual surrounding the Winter Solstice, which included the use of evergreen boughs, and an adaptation of pagan tree worship." - artofwar420, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9More power to Mr. Stein, pretty much sums up what I believe, do whatever you want as long as you don't shove it in other people's throats.
- ScornForSega, on 10/12/2007, -12/+18Since Bill O'Reilly started spouting ***** about the "War on Christmas" every ***** day last December.
- japface, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12good stuff but since when was america considered atheist?
- ModernTenshi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Who wants to bet that most of the atheists who complain about the title of Christmas, and don't want to see it used, have Christmas trees in their homes, and will be opening presents on the 25th?
- vpendse, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10I am a Muslim, and every single one of my ancestors were Muslim. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are: Christmas trees. Now, why do others feel the need to ban my religious symbols of Hijab?
- Jagdhund, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@4bit
Why do people like you confuse atheism with hard science, or even logic, for that matter?
Do you think it's possible for Christians to be scientists? I know I am one. I'll use logic and reason to talk about the real world, and explain it to the best of my ability. I'll bring up experiments to show how some of my ideas have worked in the past, and should work in the future.
I don't use science to prove or disprove my faith, because that is impossible. Don't confuse the two, and don't lump everyone onto one side or the other. That just aggravates Christians who take mathematical or engineering or scientific careers. - Bytor, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10Hey, If you want to put your Christmas presents under a Hijab, instead of a tree, no one is going to stop you.
But in our society when generally frowned on people walking around with masks on, it makes people in lines at the bank uncomfortable. Masks are generally worn to conceal identity, usually because something illicit is being done. - Jofaba, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Just as feminism begat metrosexuals only to discover that women like burly man after all; Politically Correctness has begat a neutral cultural morality, only to discover that we actually LIKE diversity. Not the PC diversity, where if you do a commercial you have to have every ethnicity represented. I mean the real diversity, where people can choose to celebrate their culture/heritage/religion, or not, and conflict doesn't arrise, because it's those differences that make life interesting and educational.
Instead it's just a never-ending migrane-inducing argument:
We're at war. The people we're fighting don't like Americans. American patriotism increases. With patriotism comes religious expression increasing. The majority of Americans are Christian-based. Christianity becomes more influential and opens up for controversy. The influence of Christianity starts to be pointed out in political decisions. Politics plays a role in whether creationism or evolution will be taught. Creationism get's a heads up. Non-Christians fight against the decision. The "war on christians/christmas" concept grows new support. Politically Correctness battles both ways depending on the districts and representatives. Political neturality ends up banning both sides for the sake of agreeing to disagree. Diversity vanishes. Christmas passes. People realize that it wasn't as fun as it was last year and plan to be more lenient next year. Before Christmas it was "well if we cant do our stuff then you can't do ours". Next year it'll be "well you can do your stuff as long as we can do our stuff". By the time next year comes around, well.. a whole year of controversy has taken place. Emotions have changed. Rinse, rather, repeat. - MyNameIsSIMPSON, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4How very tolerant of you.
- AlphAssassin, on 10/12/2007, -7/+11Lol, check the bottom of the website:
Last update 12/19/2005 - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@betterth
Believe it or not, others in America have First Amendment rights as well. The fact that you are not allowed to force your religion on others does not mean that you are being discriminated against.
Prayer is not disallowed in public schools, but teachers forcing students to pray is. "In God We Trust" should be removed from our currency. Marriage is not an exclusively Christian right, never was, and never should be. Again, the fact that you cannot push your religion on others does not constitute an abrogation of your own rights. So stop trying to play the victim when you are the criminal.
As for "condescending atheists", perhaps you should use some sound arguments instead of fallacies. Perhaps you should try using facts instead of misrepresentations. Perhaps you should stop discriminating against others for religious reasons and then trying to pretend that *you're* the one being persecuted. That would earn you a lot of respect right there. - ambrosious, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10You know what I'm sick and tired of? Religious people saying they're sick and tired of being descriminated against by atheists. I think if Ben Stein was really interested in the friendliness and brotherhood of humanity, he would include all people in his description, not others that just happent to have ONE similar religious aspect in common. It's just completely hypocritcal.
People who believe in god and people who don't are not mutually exclusive groups of good and evil. If you think they are then you've fallen into the same trap that every narrow-minded person falls into the mentality of "my group is better than your group" and you miss the fact that despite any kind of religious preference you might have (which is purely a historical accident by the way; what if you were born in China, would you be a christian?), we are all part of the same human family. The sooner we all realize that, the sooner we'll stop having wars of religion, intolerance and pride. - macp, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Amen to that Ben....
Sadly I am suprised this even made it to the front page of Digg, whose demographic seems to lump everyone religious into some Bulls-eye with Bush and "ignorant/intolerant" Creationists etc. that they like to bash for sport.
It seems you all hate me. Nevertheless, I will still do my best to love and respect you as Jesus would. We just disagree on what is right and wrong. I know I can't change you by words. - aristotle0dude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4That is a refreshingly tolerant and sensible attitude. I, as a christian, also have no problem with religious displays for other religions either.
I am not in the least bit offended by the Menorah. Tolerance and PC are not the same thing. Political correctness is actually the antithesis of tolerance. - EatingPie, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Christians are just like Nazis? Should have told Dietrich Bonhoeffer -- and the Nazis -- before the Nazis threw him in a concentration camp and executed him. All the Catholic Poles at Auschwitz would probably have disagreed too.
As I said in another topic, using "Nazi" is nothing more than rhetorical nonsense, designed to garner an emotional response, and offers nothing substantive to any debate (unless you're debating fascism, of course).
I appreciate Ben Stein. He's strikes me as a really good guy, great sense of humor, and extremely intelligent. Nice to see his words on this issue.
-Pie - greepoman, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7I agree, but at the same time someone who wants to say 'Happy Holidays' not because they were forced to, but simply because that's just another thing that people say, should not be attacked for doing so. What starts to disgust me is the rapant commercialization of Christmas and too much emphasis on gift giving rather than family...why don't we see all that up-rage about that?
- autobahn, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Also, I wholeheartedly agree that Christmas is Christmas, and people should be allowed to put up whatever decorations they want, but that said, nobody understands that we actually DON'T know when Christ was born, and there's a good reason that the "holidays" are what they are: The Pagans and Yule.
Also, stores saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" are not attacking Christians, they are just saying it like it is. There's quite a few groups that celebrate holidays around this time and if anything, we should be saying "Good Yule!" instead of "Merry Christmas". The Christians definitely do not have a monopoly over the December holiday season, and it pisses me off when dumb fundies try to make it as if Christians are THE reason for the holiday season. - amboy00, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8There you have it folks. A Jew speaking for all Jews that Christmas is just fine. Happy Hanukkah, Ben.
- rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Would you feel the same way if you were greeted with "Happy Ramadan" everywhere you went? How about "Atheist's Greetings?" If the shoe were on the other foot, are you so sure you wouldn't care about it? What if all the currency said, "We Trust in No God", the pledge of allegiance said, "One Nation, Indivisible, Atheist, With Justice And Liberty For All"?
What was wrong with the original pledge of allegiance - the ones Americans fought WWI and WWII under - that simply said, "One Nation, Indivisible..."?
What was wrong with the original motto of the United States, the one chosen by our Founders, "E Pluribus Unum", "Out of Many, One?"
And what could possibly be wrong with choosing "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings"?
What is wrong with finding a way to include everyone? Christians are 77% of the US population, Jews less than 2%. More than 14% self-identify their religion as "none.
Yet, 89% of Congress is Christian, 10% Jewish, 0% nonreligious (for the first time, one Muslim and two Buddhists were elected to the incoming House).
There are no nonreligious members of the Judiciary, nor the Executive branch at any known level, nor executives in the Pentagon (despite 20% of enlisted men and women citing their religion as "none").
All religious official national holidays are Christian.
Public opinion polls show that Americans hold atheists in lower esteem than any other belief group - in fact, than any other minority group in America.
Christmas totally dominates commerce at this time of year.
Around the nation, municipalities idea of "diversity" is to place a Menorah next to the creche, on public property, in violation of the Constitution.
And you are upset about people saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"?
Can you understand how a tiny minority, more distrusted and hated in America than any other, a group with no political representation at the national or state level, and no meaningful representation even at the local level anywhere I can ascertain, a group blamed absurdly for religioust extremist terrorism such as 9/11 (which Ben Stein called "an atheistic horror"), a group marginalized, discriminated against, the *only* minority group in America about which it is culturally acceptable to make disparaging, discriminatory and overtly prejudicial remarks in popular entertainment, on the news and by politicians,
can you understand why it might make us just a tiny, teensy bit more comfortable if you and your Christian buddies didn't feel compelled to stick your megaphones into our ears when we go to buy a quart of milk and impose your holiday cheer on us?
What the ***** is so difficult to understand? Given a choice between an inclusionary and an exclusionary expression, why in the world would someone who calls themselves a follower of Jesus Christ's ideology choose the exclusionary route???? - gandhi2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3No such thing as a public business, it's a contradiction in terms. And it's unfortunate, but a fact of life, that wherever you go, you will be exposed to private property and private beliefs. So long as some owner reserves the right to throw you off the premises, he/she also reserves the right to lambast you with whichever religious propaganda they feel like.
- MyNameIsSIMPSON, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I agree just as affirmative action laws are the antithesis of what they claim to be about. To stop racism.
- MyNameIsSIMPSON, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3So that discredits what he is saying on this issue. Try making an argument instead of resorting to ad hominems.
- MyNameIsSIMPSON, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4The 1,000+ diggs on the freerepublic story, with the comments full of freeper hate, and, here, Ben Stein's fascism.
I don't no what a freep is and I don't read the free republic but if you are attempting to discredit what Stein is saying simply because it was posted on some site you don't agree with thats weak. How is Stein a fascist? Your the one that wants to tear down other peoples beliefs rather than make arguments against them. Stein is saying be tolerant. At least your other posts were an attempt at logic, this one ios just a rant against people that have a different point of view.
"This place is too democratic, and they can't handle allowing dissenting viewpoints getting equal time."
Like you do. I don't think conservatives have a monopoly on this behavior here at digg. If you had your way you would ban them all from expresing their opinions. Very tolerant - nrvous250gt, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8gronne, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
- LGgeek, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@Jagdhund:
"What I am an advocate of is having people consciously choose their choices and to be willing to explain why."
Who died and made you God ? I don't have to explain why I believe in anything to anyone. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Of course atheism is being pushed on America! Don't believe me?
Remember when a bunch of atheists got together to try to force Sunday Schools across the country to teach evolution?
Remember when a bunch of godless homosexuals tried to get a "Defense of Marriage" amendment passed that would prevent Christians from marrying?
Remember when a bunch of atheists tried to put the phrase "There Are No Gods" put on our currency?
Remember when all those atheists put up statues of Marx with his famous quotation "Religion is the opiate of the masses" in front of government buildings?
Remember when George Bush Sr. said that Christians should not be considered good citizens?
If you can't see how atheists are pushing their agenda on America, you're blind! Oh, wait... - davidkain, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3This article was not in response to the "Sea-Tac airport in Seattle" story, so recently reported on by the media, although it bears relevance. This article is dated 2005, and I'm pretty sure my less tech-savvy family members have sent it to me in annoying Forwards at least four or five times each over the past year. XD
- rekrapt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Ramadan = 1 month. Hanukkah = 8 days. Christmas = 1 day.
Get over it. - MyNameIsSIMPSON, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@rationalist
"The issue is not individual's right to express their beliefs, the issue is a majority's attempt to impose its beliefs on minorities, harassing them and denying *them* their rights."
I guess you chose your name because you like to rationlize (To devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons for one's behavior) rather than make rational arguments.
Having a Christmas tree in a public place is far from imposing ones beliefs on another. For one, a Christmas tree is a secular convention, it really has nothing to do with Christianity even if the practice was started by a Christian. But, if some Christian icons were put on display like a nativity scene, this would hardly be considered imposing ones beliefs on another either. Imposing means force and openly displaying religious objects does not fall into this category. Is your atheism really that threatened by viewing anything that has to do with Christ. If laws are being passed that force you to go to church or accept Christianity or any other religion for that matter or imprison you for not having them then you could justly say that those beliefs are being imposed on you but that is not the case here. No one is being persecuted for having the "wrong" beliefs. I'm not a religous person either, that was my choice to make, and as long as I have that choice I'm free.
"What Ben Stein is waging is a war on tolerance, a war on consideration and accomodation, a war on freedom and a war on charity - all in the guise of "a good Jew indulging good Christians".
Wow you are a hypocrit. Your snide little remark at the end of the sentence doesn't sound very tolerant of the people with those religous beliefs to me. Its very spparent you have no respect for them.
How is he waging a war on any of those things? What he is saying is that people need to lighten up. Having to look at religous displays or vaguely religous ones in public should not in anyway weaken anothers faith in their own religion or hurt those that lack of any. Banning employees from saying Merry Christmas to others is really stupid and it is in fact intolerant. In an effort to take into consideration a non Christian's beliefs it denys those who are Christians or the non religous who just like saying it to express themselves. You don't treach tolerance by denying people this right. Its a contradiction.
Merry Christmas - PleaseJustDie, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@4bit
For starters, just because people who are religious outnumber people who are atheist in the world does not mean that an equal sampling of that is represented in digg. Digg is a modern approach to distribute user generated content and is mostly viewed by younger tech savvy people. Most religious people are older and either found religion or returned to it. Very few have been overwhelmingly religious their entire life, especially during their 20's.
So it is quite possible that a majority of the people posting here are Atheist.
And what annoys me is how so many Atheists somehow are under the impression that to be religious (especially Christian since they seem to be picked out more than any other religion on digg) you have to not believe in science or scientific theory. Where the hell did this come from? Someone decided to stereotype all religious people because BillyBob in Alabama can't form two coherent thoughts and he's trying to use the bible as his proof?
Using the same logic that a majority of the world is religious, it would also stand to reason that a majority of the scientists in the world are religious. And from what I understand from my experience with people who are religious, they don't try to force their ideas on me. If you actually talk to them, ones who aren't extremists anyway, they can form coherent arguments and actually make sense within the context of their beliefs. Just as much sense as anything I've ever heard from a scientist's theory.
Science states that major natural events and the rules of the universe and all that were created in it were random chance. Religious people say that God created the rules of the universe and gave it the inspiration that sparked the creation of all life and possibly help give a guiding hand to its creation.
Personally I can see both views, I can understand that its likely that after billions of years eventually something would have happened. But what about the possibility that we are all just existing as some giant game of Sim Life being played on a giant computer in Heaven? As far as that goes, its just as plausible to me. So, even though no one truly knows what the true story of life and the universe is, everyone has the right to believe whatever they want to believe. However I agree that both sides don't like each side saying the other is wrong, so how about this, since the religious on digg don't post that the Atheists are wrong, just that they are tired of being bitched at by the Atheists for being religious and the Atheists don't like religious people telling them what to believe, I have a 2 part proposition for the digg community.
1) Atheists will leave religious people alone and not harass religious people over their beliefs.
and 2) Religious people leave Atheists alone and not harass atheists over their beliefs.
Sounds logical to me and this will make digg a better place more friendly for everyone. Somehow I think that this simple concept will be too much for the vast majority of digg users though. - betterth, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@ambrosious
It sounds nice, but unfortunately, it's an impossibility. As long as we have differences in culture and human emotion, there will always be fighting. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Ben Stein is the peach that called 9/11 an "atheistic horror" on 9/12. He is an ultra right-wing bigot who uses "I'm Jewish" as a pretext to get away with his hateful crap, and then calling people Antisemites if they challenge him on it (even Jewish critics are Antisemites in his book, particularly if they dare to criticize the Israeli gov't). And, he wrote speeches for a hateful bigoted crook who did more to hurt this country than any liberal ever did. Great accomplishment, there.
- MyNameIsSIMPSON, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@ rationalist
"As long as you don't insist on sticking it on 'taxpayer-funded public property', who cares if you make your tree out of naked mannequins and decorate it with centerfolds from Playboy magazine and pictures of Mark Foley?"
So are you against foreign aid? I'm against my tax dollars being spent on things I don't wish to support, like foreign aid, in fact I'm against taxes altogether, would you say I have the right to opt out of paying for things I don't like, just as you are suggesting?
Happy Hanukkah - gnomon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"Jewish isn't a gene. It's a religion. It doesn't effect how you look."
A religion that is passed down through the mother. - MyNameIsSIMPSON, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@ rationalist
"As long as you don't insist on sticking it on 'taxpayer-funded public property', who cares if you make your tree out of naked mannequins and decorate it with centerfolds from Playboy magazine and pictures of Mark Foley?"
So are you against foreign aid? I'm against my tax dollars being spent on things I don't wish to support, like foreign aid, in fact I'm against taxes altogether, would you say I have the right opt out of paying for things I don't like, just as you are suggesting?
Happy Hanukkah - ambrosious, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I just knew the love of Jesus was going to get into this conversation somehow...
http://secularhumanism.blogspot.com/2006/10/mythology-of-jesus.html
Please read and think for awhile.
I propose something. How about we start living for today and eachother instead of being "saved" for an afterlife that may or may not happen.
Evangelicals claim that people who believe in God will go to heaven, while almost everyone else will eventually spend an eternity in Hell. Well if I was one of those Evangelicals sitting happily in heaven watching all my loved ones burn in Hell for all eternity - guess what? THAT would be Hell for me. Thus their very description of the existance of Heaven is impossible for me. How do you explain that?
What would happen if we put aside our "faith" which is just an excuse to short-circuit our abilities to reason about ourselves and our world, and what would happen if we started thinking about truth and impirical evidence? These things will lead to a better understanding of the human mind, body and behavior that will ACTUALLY save lives, hearts and possibly our pitiful, close-minded, intolerant civilization. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Translation: You dumb dirty goyim can have Christian symbology as long as we Jews get a Menorah. 2% of the population, folks. Wake up.
- Vishap, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Yes yes, but he also wrote "A Tale of Two Cities", which to this day remains the only "old" book I've read and actually enjoyed.
Anyway, Happy Christmahanakwanzaka and everything else too to diggers the whole internets over. :P -
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