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Assisted Suicide of Healthy 79-Year-Old Renews German Debate

nytimes.com — When Roger Kusch helped Bettina Schardt kill herself at home on Saturday, the grim, carefully choreographed ritual was like that in many cases of assisted suicide, with one exception. Ms. Schardt, 79, a retired X-ray technician from the Bavarian city of W ürzburg, was neither sick nor dying. She simply did not want to move into a nursing home, and r

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  • icndvl, on 07/05/2008, -9/+82This is a very serious decision, however someone of sound mind should be free decide if they wish to die early. The problem is of course, how do you prove they were not coerced or pressured into making the decision?
    • lisaawesome, on 07/05/2008, -8/+41I would think it would be fairly difficult to pressure a patient who is of sound mind into wanting to commit suicide if they have no desire to kill them self otherwise. I think even if the patient wasn't totally with it that it is a difficult seed to plant in their mind. Honestly, even if the woman in this story only wanted to die out of depression and fear it is ultimately her choice. She has lived a full life and obviously did not want to deal with the difficulties of aging. It's not a short sided decision for her. She is unlikely to live for more than another decade and doesn't have a world of endless opportunities ahead. Instead she has to look forward to her health declining possibly to a point where she cannot do much if anything on her own.
      • RobotBuddha, on 07/06/2008, -4/+19Agreed. I don't think people really grasp what old age means, because western society usually just tosses the majority of them away from our site. The small minority who do better than the rest are all that we see. There is nothing dignified about the last years of most peoples lives. I love life, I've been in an number of accidents and clawed my way back from each one of them because there's so much I want to do with it. And with all that, I'm still planning on suicide when it's apparent to me that the things I value in this life are no longer available to me, and that the only thing I'm able to do is suck the time, money, and energy from loved ones. People who say that death while in the grip of the assorted diseases and dementias of old age should have to actually spend time with the people screaming at imagined demons from their past, or having strangers change their diapers. That's about as far from dignified as I can imagine.
      • Tyrghast, on 07/06/2008, -1/+15The problem is 'of sound mind'. Many more conservative psychiatrists would say "If someone is open to the idea of assisted suicide, that's a clear indication of not having a sound mind". At it's core, this debate is truly about how you define sanity. If we lived in a world where the norm was to kill yourself on your 40th birthday, and you decided you'd like to live to see 41, many people would call you insane.
      • bitterbug, on 07/06/2008, -1/+4@RobotBuddha
        Well said. I too intend to end life on my own terms if I should reach a point in my old age where the quality of life is outweighed by other factors. At least if something else doesn't get me first.
        One of my grandmothers died after being ravaged by Alzheimers. I saw her in her last hours, almost skeletal and howling endlessly because there was no conscious mind left and everything terrified her.
        Should my parents ask for my help to end their lives with dignity some day, it will be an ordeal I may not be prepared for, but I hope I have the strength to help them go on their own terms.
    • OriginalReplica, on 07/06/2008, -20/+6So do all Emo kids count as having sound minds? Can we legalize the step from whiney cutting to potassium injections? I bet that trend would last about a week before the surviving emos decided to be happy again.
      • Murdats, on 07/06/2008, -0/+6i know you are trying to be funny but you fail.
        do you think its the law stopping emo's from commiting suicide?
      • emjaymj, on 07/06/2008, -0/+4Emo kids want attention, not to commit suicide. "Attempts" at suicide like slitting your wrists have an extremely low rate of success. I've seen very close up what real depression does to people and they simply don't have the energy or will to keep up the image that emo kids do, or any image for that matter.
    • dandonia, on 07/06/2008, -12/+2Where do people draw the line. At 23 I am of sound mind - I am completely healthy but I dont want to go to work yet because I want to continue my education though I cant afford it - should I be aloud to kill myself.

      What about my mum - she is 43, blind and has spondolisis of the spine - should she be allowed to kill herself

      Maybe my gran - she is 82, she has a very weak heart and can only just walk around the house though she struggles to climb stairs. She has full mental abilities and talk fine, reads a book per day and is one of the smartest people I know. She is surrounded by family who love and care for her but she is lonely since my grandad died in 96 Should she be allowed to kill herself?

      We all have bad times - if things like this 79 year old become ok - it wont be long before its a 20 year old helping another 20 year old
      • Murdats, on 07/06/2008, -0/+8I believe an option would be to have euthanasia legalised but have a 6 months - 1 year waiting period, so if it is just you being in the dumps you have plenty of time to recover and change your mind. this would weed out the ones who arent serious, however it does mean that those who want to die right now will do it some less pleasant way, but those are probably the ones not of sound mind.
      • JoeVet, on 07/06/2008, -1/+11Yes, kill yourself. You are free to choose. Mum and Gran will have to decide for themselves. No one but themselves can decide if their life is worth living. And twenty year olds will always do stupid things and you can't legislate them to stop.
    • chaoswings, on 07/06/2008, -10/+3Those who decide to commit suicide are not in the right state of mind period. No matter how you slice it something is very wrong when the will to survive is snuffed out. Especially considering that her situation was not all that bad....she wasn't even in a nursing home she just had a fear of going to one. Also she seemed very anti social and withdrawn.

      "In such circumstances, a nursing home seemed likely to be the next stop. And for Ms. Schardt, who Mr. Kusch said feared strangers and had a low tolerance for those less clever than she was, that was an unbearable prospect."

      Think about it the prospect of simply meeting strangers lead her to choose suicide. Assisted suicide is a very bad idea. At the most extreme it should only be used in situations where patients are suffering horribly with no way to reduce the pain to an acceptable level.
      • emjaymj, on 07/06/2008, -1/+4I've dealt with severe depression and I've dealt with constant kidney stones, supposedly one of if not the most painful condition a person can have. Let me tell you, if I could be rid of one of the two forever but have to deal with the other for the rest of my life, I would gladly deal with the physical pain.

        You say yourself, "At the most extreme it should only be used in situations where patients are suffering horribly with no way to reduce the pain to an acceptable level," but for some reason you seem to think that mental/emotional problems are easier to live with or treat than physiological problems. They're not - they are if anything far more pervasive.

        There is a difference between being in the "right state of mind" (an awful and ambiguous label that can be applied to any choice you don't agree with) and having the mental capacity to make and understand your own decisions. I agree with someone else here who said there should be a waiting period, as some people may make a rash decision during a temporary crisis. I also think it might even be a good idea to force people to go to counseling during the waiting period. But mental agony is no less real to the sufferer than physical agony. Of course there's something wrong when the will to live disappears, but who is anybody else to tell someone they may not take their own life just to ease their own conscience?
    • dstz, on 07/06/2008, -0/+2Conspiracy theory is fun. But we're speaking of the dignity of dying people. And I care enough about how I'll end (preferably by a heart attack while doing something pleasurable) to be VERY empathic with anyone tackling that issue for oneself.

      If you think that there's something fishy involved somewhere, prove it.
    • johndi, on 07/06/2008, -1/+1You can't prove a negative, and we shouldn't even be trying. People should never be required to do the impossible. That's why the concept of innocent until proven is so important to individual liberty. We should be looking for proof of coercion not proof that coercion did not happen.
    • 808ethan, on 07/06/2008, -0/+1How do you prove someone wasn't pressured into sex? Gotta tell you just saying he/she is 16/18/21 depending on what country your in is a pretty lazy way to try and tell.
    • unitedatheism, on 07/07/2008, -0/+1Pressure like what?
      Do it as I told you or I'll kill you?
  • macdoodle, on 07/05/2008, -48/+7we should have the choice
    i cant afford soem homless shlters others want me to pay for drug reahb not appropriate or needed and after teh interfaith they seem to be the worst to disabled.

    espcially me migrianes allergy verry restrictive diet.
    costs exceed income
    one shetler said youll never afford section8 and we get to wear perfume even if it sends you to the er. dumped again.
    self fulfilling : multi disabeld dead broke +no help = failure

    va ahd me come far then gave womens beds away and then changed program stranded again far.
    now asy we wont help fix ours that wwould have helped you get from homless to housign with section 8
    now lost section8 too go pay somewhere you never woudl go on purpose.

    over and over too many or wrong disablities and neither addict or with child.

    staate voc reahb too coulda had accessibel housing and school towrds work.
    they blocked delayd adn denied. no legal advocates to fight for me.

    ive been diagnosed as homeless and denied acute migraine and other pain care before!

    over 7 years homeless suffering with also chronic pain and lost all worked so hard for and much can never be replaced.
    got ptsd and panic and more too.

    i am living in hell cause none wants to admit the level and kind of suffering exists right under their well coiffed noses. o
    when saving taxes is the #1 priority
    there is only one way out of hell for many of us.

    shetler beds most are barracks adn nightitme only for 1 in 20 . and for teh rest we get harrassed and ticketed for sleseping at night . its illegal to SLEEP IF homEless in the USA!

    its considered humane to end the lives of dogs and cats who cant get quality of life.
    stop denying this humane option to humans
    a legal way to end a painful hopeless lifewher its even illegal to sleep at night.
    we have no life liberty or persuit of anything.

    and what is it hope /or hell?
    year after year existence in a puke green institutional shared with ever changing dying strangers room your life controlled by an overworked team of medicare jailers.

    let the suffering end legally and humanely .
    stop keeping us vicitmized or suffering ,
    barely alive.!

    ps: hell is really cold ,wet ,damp ,loud, painful and filthy.
  • welliwonder, on 07/06/2008, -10/+66If she wants to die let her die, sheeesh, just don't make it messy
    • enri, on 07/06/2008, -4/+9That is the advantage of assisted suicide. It is well documented and painless.
      • welliwonder, on 07/06/2008, -15/+2I know! It's awesome. Also I am all for sending senile elderly people, you know the types that are basically just a cerebellum and that's it, , and young retards, off for medical testing.

        Imagine how much quicker we could get medicine out if we could test on humans from the start instead of animals.
    • chaoswings, on 07/06/2008, -2/+2If someone wants to die especially when they are not in any pain or anguish there is something wrong with them. At a superficial level there is nothing wrong with letting her die. But society as a whole has a responsibility to look after itself. This person chose to die only out of fear of going to a nursing home. That fear was not even a solid one it was just on the possibility of going to one. She should have gotten psychological help. Instead she got someone willing to kill a person only to advance his deluded cause.

      The prospect of simply meeting strangers lead her to choose suicide. Assisted suicide is a very bad idea. At the most extreme it should only be used in situations where patients are suffering horribly with no way to reduce the pain to an acceptable level.


      • johndi, on 07/06/2008, -1/+1Your argument doesn't hold up. If someone is in pain or anguish there is something wrong with them. I don't believe it is proper to coerce people into continuing life by feeding them happy pills.
    • prisoner24601, on 07/06/2008, -4/+3Interesting that on digg, where any atheist-worldview article will be frontpaged in an hour (especially if the person who posts it includes "where is your God now?" in the title, regardless of how irrelevant...) this comment that someone who is PERFECTLY HEALTHY should "left alone" to end her life unhindered gets dugg.

      This is a *healthy* HUMAN BEING we are talking about here! She was just afraid of the unknown and needed some reassurance. Think of YOUR grandmother and show some human empathy!

      Matthew 24:12 "...the love of many will grow cold."
      • Zarokima, on 07/06/2008, -2/+6But she *wanted* TO DIE so there's no problem. The case is well-documented, so it wasn't just some snap decision. Who are you to say someone else's life can't end when they want it to?
      • mrrealtime, on 07/06/2008, -3/+2Why doesnt god heal this woman instead of letting someone kill her then?

        Because god is imaginary. Religion is not a world view, it is a delusion.

        www.godisimaginary.com

  • Dylson, on 07/06/2008, -80/+6Lol
























































































































    lol
  • Tssst, on 07/06/2008, -16/+74It's called euthanasia.. why call it assisted suicide?! A pathetic attempt to make the ability to make choices look immoral.
    • Derelict267, on 07/06/2008, -19/+5youth in asia
      • GregIsLegend, on 07/06/2008, -3/+5It means the same thing. Assisted suicide doesn't seem any more immoral to me than Euthanasia.
      • emjaymj, on 07/06/2008, -0/+3I'm going to have to agree with Gred here. "Invited homicide" or something along those lines would be a much better way of putting it if someone was really trying to make it look more immoral.
    • TalahRama, on 07/06/2008, -0/+11In Minnesota, there are large billboards that say, "Prevent SUICIDE: Talk to your doctor today." Only the prevent part is small and off in a corner, so it seems like it's advertising suicide. The unintended hilarity is immense.
    • djholybolt, on 07/06/2008, -11/+3you have a feeble mind. there's a difference. one is voluntary(assisted suicide) the other is unvoluntary(euthanasia).
      • Tssst, on 07/06/2008, -2/+12Euthanasia is not involuntary. If it was, it would be called homicide. The patients opt into the procedure.. more like request it.
      • brettsmaname, on 07/06/2008, -3/+1then how can you call it Euthanasia, when you are killing your dog when it is in pain? oh, and by the way, it is still listed as homicide on the coroner's report, because it is one human killing another.
      • djholybolt, on 07/12/2008, -0/+1Euthanasia is very much Involuntary. What do you think happened to the Jews in WW2? They were Euthanised on a large scale, It was considered Genocide as well. They were put to their death at the hands of other people. My point stands.
    • CannedMango, on 07/06/2008, -1/+11There's no reason to shy away from the term "assisted suicide".. that's exactly what it is. There's nothing wrong with it and taking that right away from people is taking away control over their very own fate. So if there's a negative connotation with the term "suicide" it is our society that needs to change, not the words we use.
    • dandonia, on 07/06/2008, -9/+2it is completely immoral to help someone who is health die - she needed help in a different way
      • Bith8654, on 07/06/2008, -1/+5That's your opinion, and though I'm sure it has years of medical and psychiatric training to back it up, I can't help but remain unconvinced.
      • chaoswings, on 07/06/2008, -4/+2I don't know why you were dugg down you are totally correct. She had a fear of going to a nursing home and of meeting strangers...so much so that she saw death as an option. She needed psychiatric help. But instead he got someone who used her to help him in his deluded cause.

      • RogueOstrich, on 07/06/2008, -1/+2Death is a natural thing everyone's going to do it and if she wants to die on her own terms then who the ***** are you to tell her no? Humans are so ***** deluded it's ridiculous. People die it's what they do, in fact it's what every living thing does but for some reason everyone's under the impression that human life is somehow valuable. There is no value to life it just is and if it ends it's not some sad terrible thing. Yes eventually people we know will die and we won't see them anymore but you'll get over it everyone does. Your notions of sanity and morality are concepts that have been spoon fed to you since birth and barely make sense.
    • brettsmaname, on 07/06/2008, -9/+1So, you agree with the Nazi's then and are for Euthanasia?
    • Rikkochet, on 07/06/2008, -1/+6Can't you get the difference?
      Euthanasia is when someone is unable to take their own life and wants someone to end their life.
      Assisted suicide is when someone helps a person die - be it euthanasia or simply providing information and/or means to do it, like in the case. This case was NOT euthanasia - the woman committed suicide.
      • DulcetTone, on 07/06/2008, -2/+1WRONG! Euthanasia is the taking of life in order to fulfill some act of kindness or reduced suffering. It has ZERO to do with the person's consent or agency in the decision whatsoever: you euthanize a horse with a broken leg.

        Assisted suicide means that the PERSON in question has decided to undertake the action. I am not sure if it says anything strongly about them doing the action in any way. The decision, however, is clearly that of the person.
    • brettsmaname, on 07/06/2008, -0/+1then why call it euthanasia when one kills a suffering animal that can't tell us it wants to die.
  • gapingass, on 07/06/2008, -69/+2rofl
















































































    waffle
  • goofygarber, on 07/06/2008, -7/+52If someone wants to end their life, they're going to do it - whether it through a clean, monitored process or with a jug of Drano. I don't think its the government's place to deny that right, but I do think it should be heavily monitored and regulated to prevent... yano, murders.
    • PullingTeeth, on 07/06/2008, -17/+2"Right to life is a phrase that describes the belief that a human being has an essential right to live, particularly that a human being has the right not to be killed by another human being."

      I don't see any laws in place for a 'right to death'.
      • Llort, on 07/06/2008, -2/+13Does your life belong to your government?
      • emjaymj, on 07/06/2008, -1/+3So I guess we don't have a right to NOT speak freely, nor a right to NOT bear arms?
  • nblsavage, on 07/06/2008, -12/+92Her life, her choice. Get over it.
    • PullingTeeth, on 07/06/2008, -19/+3Fair enough. But do it yourself.
      • djholybolt, on 07/06/2008, -1/+10Unless nblsavage wanted to voluntarily do it, what you just asked for is out of context to why the lady wanted to commit suicide.
      • Rikkochet, on 07/06/2008, -2/+3She did. RTFA.
    • djholybolt, on 07/06/2008, -3/+6exactly! thank you!
    • brettsmaname, on 07/06/2008, -4/+1in the states, it would cost the tax payers money, though, because it would have to be investigated every time to check that there was no foul play, as in someone coercing the subject into the situation for gains of any kind, including, but not limited to financial gains. Therefor, Assisted suicide is not just their life, but all of our lives because it would cost us all money in the end because they want to quit with the help of others.
    • passedoutghost, on 07/06/2008, -3/+0But the poor bastard who helps kill her gets locked up for manslaughter. All you people say "Yay, it's her life, she can do what she pleases!" But I doubt that any of you would consider helping a person commit suicide.
      • ogre2112, on 07/06/2008, -1/+1Hand me the pills, I can take the next patient on Tuesday, say 5 o'clock.
      • mrrealtime, on 07/06/2008, -1/+0You make a good point. As with all situations in life, this is no doubt a complex issue and random commenters on this site reading the article certainly dont have enough facts to pass judgement on either the woman or the person that helped her.

        The issue in general, like abortion or any other extremely difficult choice needs to be made by those involved carefully and with heavy consideration of all the consequences. It does not need to be made for them by some religious nut bars or angry atheists (myself included) who dont know them or their situation. Society needs to focus on the millions of people being killed in the third world every day by the CIA, or big oil interests, or by unchecked dictatorships, warring religious factions and clergy who are sexually abusing, killing and torturing people in their own countries by the thousands.
  • TheModernArdeo, on 07/06/2008, -5/+8While I hardly agree with Kush's outgoing publicity of the event, I find it more condemnable not permit some one to die is peaceable freedom; On their own terms with dignity.

    There are some lines to the social contract; Taking away the freedom to choose when to end your own life is one of them.
    • TheModernArdeo, on 07/06/2008, -2/+1I should really watch what I type.

      "I find it more condemnable not to* permit someone to die in* peaceable freedom; On their own terms and* with dignity".

      "There are some limits* to the social contract..."

  • NickSpinner, on 07/06/2008, -25/+1THEYRE DISTRACTING YOU. PUT YOUR MIND POWER INTO STOPPING GOVERNMENT SPONSORED TERROR AND WORLD WAR 3
    • PimpinOnWelfare, on 07/06/2008, -1/+4somebody takes alex jones a little to seriously
  • GregIsLegend, on 07/06/2008, -12/+30I plan to kill myself before ever needing to live in a nursing or assisted living home. Once my time is up and I no longer contribute anything to society and find myself needing the support of others I will lift their burden and step out with dignity. I won't waste away in some old folks home or subject myself to the experience of watching my body fall apart until I eventually find myself incontinent in a bed hooked up to a ventilator where my relatives will just wind up deciding whether or not I stay alive anyway.
    • darkened, on 07/06/2008, -4/+6Amen brother, the day i can no longer control my motor functions enough to handle the tasks of computing / video gaming I have exceeded my need to live.
    • TalahRama, on 07/06/2008, -6/+7Yeah, ***** that. The advantage of old age is you have the money to literally pay people to wipe your own ass and you get to watch Wheel of Fortune all day. I am not missing out on those golden years.
      • Tyrghast, on 07/06/2008, -0/+9Right, that's exactly how it is. Except for that one bedridden guy in Ft. Worth last year who was 80 years old, living on social security, didn't have the money to repair his small air conditioner and died from heatstroke once the summer rolled around. Besides that 'isolated' example, being old and dependent on the grace of the government is so kickass, right? I'm so looking forward to dying alone, in my chair watching Wheel of Fortune, not even strong enough to lift my arm and wipe the sweat off my brow.
    • imightbewrong, on 07/06/2008, -2/+14many people in nursing homes and especially assisted living communities continue living fulfilling lives. "no longer contribute anything to society" sounds like natural selection brain washing. How do you think it make your children feel to know that instead of being a grandparent you killed yourself?
      • GregIsLegend, on 07/06/2008, -3/+7I don't plan to have kids so there's that. I'm sure being old and gray will be great for some people. However the whole point is, I shouldn't have to if I don't want to, you know?
      • WishItWerePaul, on 07/06/2008, -7/+0but we, the society, do not need to be burdened with helping you in that. is that fair?

        i mean dont wait, kill yourself while your motor function is still adequate - save us the trouble of doing it for you. i sure dont want murder on my conscience. not even an indirect one (yes i'm against executions as well)
    • shadekeiko, on 07/06/2008, -1/+10As someone who is currently watching my 94 year old grandmother waste away in a nursing home, I completely agree with you. She is currently refusing to take her medication and refusing to eat. She told a nurse there that she wants to die. Why should it have to be such a painful process when euthanasia could be available for people like her? I wish she had that option, for her sake.
  • randyzaia, on 07/06/2008, -9/+21I see nothing wrong with this.
  • DiggzDE, on 07/06/2008, -6/+16auf Wiedersehen
  • MikeMitchell, on 07/06/2008, -7/+27We used to have this high rise retirement/nursing home where I used to live, and elderly people used to jump to their deaths all the time.

    If you want to die, why shouldn't the state be willing to help ease the pain, not only on the patient, but the family.
  • steveoco, on 07/06/2008, -2/+11I think humans have the right from birth to do what they want with their bodies. That could mean putting any drug or even a knife into it. Assisting someone in their death however brings up some other issues.
    • Temo1, on 07/06/2008, -2/+3Lets say that I find in general that people who abuse drugs are more likely to commit crimes. I don't want an increase in crime because it lowers my quality of life. I would not hesitate to make a law that would make it illegal for you to use drugs.

      Suicide, however... well, I just don't see how someone killing themselves would lower my quality of life (unless it was a family member or friend, I guess...)
  • imightbewrong, on 07/06/2008, -21/+13i find the whole idea repulsive. Nietzsche describes how life will fray at the ends, as Christianity fades out. I can't understand why anyone would want to live in a world where weak looking newborns are left on the hillside to die and the elderly as regarded as useless, and yet so many people are pushing for it
    • Dustin00, on 07/06/2008, -3/+10Pushing for it???? We already do regard the elderly as useless. Most people put their parents in assisted living when they can no longer care for themselves.

      Nobody keeps grandpa in their house so he can tell them another story each night.

      Just forcing them to live in a nursing home is NOT valuing them, I don't blame this woman one bit.
    • Hananda, on 07/06/2008, -3/+16"i find the whole idea repulsive."

      Hey, so long as you don't try to force your opinion on others, feel free to be repulsed.

      "Nietzsche describes how life will fray at the ends, as Christianity fades out. I can't understand why anyone would want to live in a world where weak looking newborns are left on the hillside to die and the elderly as regarded as useless, and yet so many people are pushing for it"

      Non sequitur. The children of the elderly aren't signing them up for assisted suicide. The person itself must make the decision.

      Besides, leaving infants to die of exposure is murder, while viewing the elderly as useless is common sense. A senile invalid is good to no-one, and its continued existence is an insult to the person it once was. There's nothing incorrect about allowing a person to die with dignity if it chooses to do so.
    • apetrie, on 07/06/2008, -1/+10Who wants a world where weak looking newborns are left to die? Seriously, what a bunch of crap. We go to great lengths to keep babies alive, even when they are likely to lead very tough lives because of their problems. If you believe that its simply religion or Christianity specifically that fuels that, you are really blind to human nature. Read up a little on humanism, religion is not the only reason to value life.

      That being said, believing that an elderly person has the right to decide when to end their lives, and believing that ALL of the elderly are useless or should be gotten rid of are completely different things!
    • afflusso, on 07/06/2008, -1/+3It is a shame that elderly aren't highly respected anymore, but you are generalizing too much. If they make the conscious choice to die and their family agrees, then they have that right. The newborn analogy doesn't work because they didn't make the choice.
    • imightbewrong, on 07/06/2008, -4/+1To clarify the example of newborns dying on the hillside was an extreme example of life fraying at the edge. The Infanticide was a practice of the ancient Romans, something which Nietzsche was very aware of.
      "viewing the elderly as useless is common sense"
    • imightbewrong, on 07/06/2008, -6/+1
      To clarify the example of newborns dying on the hillside was an extreme example of life fraying at the edge. The Infanticide was a practice of the ancient Romans, something which Nietzsche was very aware of.
      "viewing the elderly as useless is common sense"
    • mithrasinvictus, on 07/06/2008, -1/+4If you feel your beliefs entitle you to force people to keep on suffering or have babies that have no hope in hell of a decent future. You'd better damn well make sure they will have a better quality of life than they have now or you might find that your day of reckoning will go worse than theirs.
    • Rikkochet, on 07/06/2008, -0/+5Really? Helping the elderly to end their lives because you respect their wishes strikes me as a hell of a lot more noble and progressive than patting them on their simple old heads and telling them they just don't get it anymore and should go back to bed.
    • DulcetTone, on 07/06/2008, -2/+0Nietzsche would be a lot more popular if he strayed into the world of relevancy once in a while. And stopped being German.
    • javip, on 07/06/2008, -1/+1you might want to consider taking the 'might' out of your username
  • realityseer, on 07/06/2008, -2/+10it is completely her own business if she wants to die, to avoid a crappy life in a wheel chair in a stinking nursing home, its rediculous to house these people whose quality of life is so poor, and all for the almighty buck or some religious jerks beliefs. we all have a right to die if we want too. let her rest in peace and mind your business.
  • gasoline, on 07/06/2008, -2/+20Not many of your friends will be around when you're 79. Perhaps you've even seen your children die.

    Sad.
    • blackjack75, on 07/06/2008, -2/+4After reading this, I already want to shoot myself now. Thanks.
    • JirkJiggler, on 07/07/2008, -0/+1Or instead of shooting yourself, have 10+ children to ensure you will have company.
  • DiggzDE, on 07/06/2008, -2/+28The first steps toward an official Suicide Booth.

    Futurama speaks Truth.
    • spookyttws, on 07/06/2008, -0/+8Suicide Booth Recording: Please select mode of death. Quick and painless, or slow and horrible?
      Fry: Yes, I'd like to make a collect call.
      Suicide Booth Recording: You have selected slow and horrible.
      Bender: Good choice.
      Suicide Booth Recording: You are now dead. Thank you for using Stop and Drop, America's favorite Suicide Booth since 2008.
  • ZenMojo, on 07/06/2008, -2/+14In the absence of moral dilemma and emotional instability, self-decession should be a human right.
  • franklymister, on 07/06/2008, -4/+29What role does any government have in telling people when they are allowed to end their own lives?
    • WishItWerePaul, on 07/06/2008, -9/+0none. they should not be helping one way or the other. they should not condone others to help as well. suicide victims need help, they're usually depressed, some times due to with very real ***** in their lives for which there's no solution. either illness or losses they think they can't survive.

      guess what, psychology tells us, with very few exceptions most events in our lives have nearly no impact on us after about two months.

      think about that.
      • franklymister, on 07/06/2008, -1/+7Whatever the government doesn't prohibit, by definition it condones.

        I'm pretty sure that being sent to a nursing home when you're eighty years old is going to have impact on your life, yes, even after two months.

        It's not the government's role to prohibit people from committing suicide, so I guess technically it "condones" it. Your perspective assumes that governments are supposed to fill a role like parents - I disagree.
      • Pake, on 07/06/2008, -1/+4So you're saying that if I knew my health was getting worse and that in a few years, I wouldn't even be able to enjoy the pleasures we take for granted, such as being able to use the restroom ourselves, walk, etc., that I shouldn't be allowed to go out, give myself one hell of a good time and then end it on a high note?
  • Dralha, on 07/06/2008, -3/+14It was a choice between death with dignity and death after years of abuse at the hands of twisted nursing home operators. She made a good choice. She made the right choice.
  • thomsonr, on 07/06/2008, -3/+25It should be your choice regardless.

    I watched my father waste away from cancer and eventually end up in a diaper. I have no desire to have my family watch the same.
  • Rudegar, on 07/06/2008, -10/+4dugg for the german guy not eating her!
  • jun2san, on 07/06/2008, -10/+3I'm all for youth in asia.
  • RobotLeAwesome, on 07/06/2008, -1/+18If you want to kill yourself you should be able to do so.
    • suttercain, on 07/06/2008, -1/+2Actually you can. You just can't have someone else help you.
  • knifesideleft, on 07/06/2008, -7/+1I'd like this to be allowed in some form for people who clearly could use it but all sorts of problems arise. Between the 16 year old middle class kid wanting to die because of some bullys or the 70 year old with a painful incurable cancer everything starts to blur in between. Is this person mentally ill and can be fixed or are they clearly fulfilled with their life and want to end their suffering its hard to figure these things out.
  • naturesounds, on 07/06/2008, -3/+2this article is a little biased, you think? they make it sound more like a horror story than an event.
  • WishItWerePaul, on 07/06/2008, -6/+1do i want to be able to end my life? yes. should society and/or the state help? ***** no. this is serious *****, we neednt provoke or even make it easy to end one's life. this would be opening such a ***** up can of worms -- scary! there are things one has to decide and DO for themselves.
  • bdav87, on 07/06/2008, -4/+12Most suicide survivors regret their decision.
    • mithrasinvictus, on 07/06/2008, -1/+9Maybe thats because, since its taboo, there is no system to verify they have thought the decision through.
      If you regulate it you can have a 6 month grace period to contemplate the decision before allowing someone a graceful death.
    • ileftfark, on 07/06/2008, -1/+22While your statement is statistically accurate, most suicide survivors are much younger (teens to twenties), and tend to be female (not really relevant, just added demographic info). Males have a much higher "success" rate of suicide, due to methods chosen (guns and strangulation - hangings-, mostly).

      The difference is that these younger people often are in a fragile state of mind, and a suicide attempt is a cry for help and attention (it's cliche, but for good reason). Generally, after a half-hearted attempt (eating too many Tylenols or something equally ineffective), they finally receive the help they need, and all the attention they need to get out of their rut. Once 'normality' has been established in their lives, their actions seem foolish (reasonably so), and they therefore regret that decision.

      However, when we're talking about the elderly, who were once proud young forces of life who now see themselves disintegrate into a shadow of their former selves- many poor, alone, in constant pain, unable to care for themselves in a reasonable manner, etc, it's a much different situation and completing the life cycle doesn't seem like such an unreasonable request.

      /.02
  • Dweebo777, on 07/06/2008, -3/+1It's kind of a sticky situation if you ask me. If people want to end their lives, they should have the right to do so, even though I wouldn't want that for anyone. However, the dude publicizing it like was wrong.
  • reaver, on 07/06/2008, -0/+11poor lady never married, had no friends, or family...

    that makes me sad.
  • nigglesparish, on 07/06/2008, -2/+2Suppose you ask me if you can come over to my house for dinner. It's all very well to say it's my choice whether to have you over, but I would much rather that you hadn't put the choice in front of me, cause now I have the awkwardness of saying "no." Not all choices are good ones to have.

    The problem I think here is not so much this particular case but that other people who may not want to die will feel that they now have to justify their decision not to die - they may feel that they could for example make things easier for their family if they just disappeared. Wouldn't it be best to just keep that choice off the table, even if we want to make exceptions for cases of extreme pain, say?
    • banmaster, on 07/06/2008, -2/+2People should be asked justify their continued existence EVERY DAY.
      There are way too many people that simply would not be able to.
      • nigglesparish, on 07/06/2008, -0/+1I think we have different senses of justification in mind here. I don't want people to feel that they ought to die just because they cause emotional or financial hardship for others. That would mean that basically all old or handicapped people should die. What you mean is that people should be able to give an accounting for their lives; if they can't show that they're doing anything worthwhile then they should do better. But the alternative there is not to die but *to do better.* I certainly agree with that, if that's what you mean.
      • jb0nd38372, on 07/06/2008, -0/+3"That would mean that basically all old or handicapped people should die."

        I have partially disagree with you. I am not old, but I am disabled. While I may not be able to do everything a person without a disability might, there are other areas I accel at.

        When I was adopted at 6 weeks of age, It was apparent I would not walk to the doctors. They also said I would have a speech defect and never attend public school.

        I'm now 36, I started walking without any assistance at the age of 9, attended public school, and yeah I have a speech defect; I talk too damn much.

        What a person is capable of doing or wanting to do is up to them and how determined and strong willed they are.

        As far as accounting for my life, I dont see in my mind I've done anything great thus far. One failed marriage, can't manage money for *****. I do know one thing, I am happy as I wake up each day because who the hell knows what might happen.
      • nigglesparish, on 07/06/2008, -0/+0Both points taken, jb0nd.
  • hiteshsharma, on 07/06/2008, -7/+4There are no good reasons for a Bad decision.. The woman was certainly feeling low.. but instead of Helping her lead a healthy and happy life what we let her do is to kill herself.. And this Dumb ass guy goes out to make a name out of it..
    ***** this "Use and Throw" mentality should not be applied to people.

    Love life ... you only get it once !!
    • brettsmaname, on 07/06/2008, -1/+2not only a name, but money too.
  • koreaski, on 07/06/2008, -3/+6live until you die.

    -hm I know this hurts but there may be a miracle around the corner! who knows??
    • ogre2112, on 07/06/2008, -3/+5Or 10 more years of crapping your pants. Either way.
    • unitedatheism, on 07/07/2008, -0/+1Yeah, who knows if you are not the next messias and haven't figured out until you're 150 years old, right?
  • TinternAbbot, on 07/06/2008, -1/+11What if an 18 year old wanted to be euthanized?
    • DulcetTone, on 07/06/2008, -4/+4Well, they'd certainly have something to tell their grandkids about.

      • blackjack75, on 07/06/2008, -0/+4I, for one, found that hilarious. I guess I am in a minority.
    • TinternAbbot, on 07/06/2008, -2/+3I only ask because it seems to me that an 18 year old would be given counseling instead of an injection or whatever. Why is it not the same for senior citizens?
      • TinternAbbot, on 07/06/2008, -0/+2But in your question it seems like you're saying it's not so important whether or not the person wants to die, but rather whether or not society deems such a desire understandable and acceptable.
    • Nudar, on 07/07/2008, -1/+1You should have to reach a certain age before you're allowed to kill yourself when you don't have a terminal disease or debilitating handicap.
    • unitedatheism, on 07/07/2008, -0/+1It's your life man, do what you want, as long as you're not under drugs influence or something like that.
      If you don't want to live, why should government obligate you?
  • imightbewrong, on 07/06/2008, -1/+1To clarify the example of newborns dying on the hillside was an extreme example of life fraying at the edge. The Infanticide was a practice of the ancient Romans, something which Nietzsche was very aware of.

    "viewing the elderly as useless is common sense"
    • HMMcKamikaze, on 07/06/2008, -0/+2I'm glad that you went ahead and clarified that, but posting it three times is unnecessary.
  • else7en, on 07/06/2008, -8/+2he's a profiteering monster
    she was a cowardly lump of humanity
  • Qtip42, on 07/06/2008, -2/+4Good for her. I'd hate to be old and in a nursing home. Die young, it's the only way to go.
  • nedy78, on 07/06/2008, -0/+9Icndvl said correctly. If all sides are well informed and the decision is made, so be it. Free will.
  • cgbspender, on 07/06/2008, -0/+9I am all in favor of giving people the choice to do with their lives what they want. But the big problem is that old people (and others who do not benefit society) might be bullied by society and the state into ending their lives. Then you have no free choice anymore.

    Just look at how the elderly are treated today, shut away into nursing homes. Instead of giving them the chance to go on with their lives at their pace, nursing homes make money of them vegetating like cattle on a farm. As their victims are unable to defend themselves and their families pay lots of money to have these "obstacles" removed some unscrupulous (not all of course) nursing homes constantly violate human rights to make even more profit.

    I understand this woman's fear of nursing homes, but suicide is not a long term solution to it. Its not a big step from letting the elderly live like cattle to bullying them into suicide - all in the name of their "worthlessness".
  • DulcetTone, on 07/06/2008, -6/+0Healthy, yes. But GERMAN.
  • ASSHO, on 07/06/2008, -4/+1Well, if people want to die, we might as well make it useful and strap a bomb on them and use them in a war. Or atleast make it fun and exciting like skydiving without a parachute.
  • brettsmaname, on 07/06/2008, -4/+2Basically, in the end,
    A. It's still homicide, as homicide is listed as one human Killing another (as in the death penalty).
    B. In the states at least, it would still require an investigation into every incident to check that there was no foul play, or coercion for financial or other gains. This would cost all of us money in tax dollars, money that would be spent better in hospitals helping people get better.
    C. This opens the ability of prisoners to commit suicide and not serve their full term in prison.
    D. Who regulates the industry to set down the rules on what situations allow it to be done? Some people might choose this as a way to cop out of their responsibilities such as if they are in horrible debt and don't want to pay. Also, how do you know the person isn't just mentally ill, and not of sound judgment to make the choice of death to one's self? (especially when they are physically healthy)
    • Ymeg, on 07/06/2008, -1/+2A: Okay..
      B: Require a prior doctor visit if planing on having a legal assisted suicide.
      C. So? Honestly, how many would chose this? And isn't it their right? I would say that life>non existance, so it would only be a further punishment.
      (I think life sentenced prisons wiht no parole should be given the choice to be killed)
      D. If they really want to get out that bad, they will.
      • brettsmaname, on 07/06/2008, -1/+1C. they lose the right to choose when they break the law, prisons have to respect their prisoners, but their prisoners have very VERY limited rights as citizens, seeing as they broke the law, suicide would be looked at as a way to get out of paying the consequences for actions.

        B. They might, but it will still cost me money, as a tax payer, and I choose not to be responsible for the homicide of people. I don't want that blood on my hands, and many others would probably feel the same way, a prior doctor's visit does not determine whether or not there was foul play, this would require actual investigative police work. It should not require counseling if a person wants to kill one's self. If they want to, they will, otherwise, don't convince them that they should. Convince them that they shouldn't, because if you can do that, then they never wanted to in the first place, seeing as there is no going back from that finalizing decision.

        Again, a doctor is no substitute for an officer, a judge, and a jury. And seeing as they must be involved, this would take money away from other matters, like hospital visits for the poor, etc.
    • banmaster, on 07/06/2008, -1/+1Sorry, but I don't understand your 'prisoners not serving their full term' thing.
      Have you ever considered how much it costs to keep someone in prison? Have you considered that a full 1/3 of these people go on to commit crime again once they do serve their full sentence, and that most get released after only serving 1/2 of it.
      How is that any worse than allowing them to end their lives and saving the taxpayer a HUGE amount in the process? (we're talking hundreds of dollars per day of their incarceration).
      • brettsmaname, on 07/06/2008, -1/+2Even so, while in prison, they are the responsibility of the state, and therefor, what happens to them, even if they kill themselves, is the eventual responsibility of the state. The state chooses what they can do, because if something bad happens to them, including suicide, family can still sue if there is evidence of foul play.
    • emjaymj, on 07/06/2008, -0/+2In similar fashion:

      A. This is irrelevant. You're right about the definition, but all you're arguing is semantics. You're missing the part where not all homicide is illegal. It's called justifiable homicide. And if I remember correctly, even the state of Oregon has measures that allow justified euthanasia.
      B. Setting up a verifiable process would streamline the entire thing and make a difficult investigation (and most likely cleanup) unnecessary. By giving people certain steps to go through, possibly even at their own expense, it can be made easier for everyone and actually use less taxpayer money.
      C. This is not a big deal for two reasons. 1 - In ANY place that allows capital punishment, it is considered a much more severe penalty than incarceration. 2 - see point B.
      D. Other than a short psychological exam to verify the capacity to make such a decision, why should anybody be able to decide who is and is not allowed to kill themselves? As far using suicide as a means to avoid debt, there's already a somewhat less drastic measure for that - it's called bankruptcy.
    • mrrealtime, on 07/06/2008, -1/+2What are you thinking? Is making assisted suicide going to make it easier to get away with murder? Cost society money? How much do you think "society" pays for idiots who smoke? or idiots who are religious crack pots? or idiots who drive drunk?

      The measure of a society is how it treats its sick people. If someone wants to die, their friends, doctors and if necessary government should do whatever they possibly can to dissuade them (short of drugging them, tricking them, or manipulating them of course). Failing that, and after careful consideration, all of those agencies should help them end their life if ultimately in spite of everything they tried the person is resolute. Assisted suicide should be the last resort yes, but still a right for any human being to take because able bodied humans can do it any time they want.

      Homicide is not the same at all because it involves taking away someone elses right to choose when they die. That is why it is a crime, not because invisible imaginary god says it is.

  • FuckXboxx, on 07/06/2008, -1/+2The problem comes from not knowing what comes after life.

    If we knew these people were going somewhere better we'd want all of our wise elders to escape to the promised land.

    If we thought anything would come after death for the convenience of others, we would encourage this decision. Instead, none of us know what is waiting and we are losing wisdom of those who are most probably wiser than all who surround them.

    Life is like a staircase, where every generation makes up a step. If we cannot see the coming stairs, we are surely going to stumble.
    • banmaster, on 07/06/2008, -3/+1There is nothing after life. Thats it, you're worm food and your soul doesn't go to a happy place with stinking angels and harps! Be that as it may, who are YOU to tell someone that they can't end their own life if they want to and are happy to undergo counseling to ensure they 'really' want to.
      ***** you!
  • CorrosiveMan, on 07/06/2008, -0/+0For those thinking about suicide, you better consider the fact that the insurance company might not pay in case of suicide. (if you have any relatives)
    You need to decide if the next x years of misery are worth the money.
  • suttercain, on 07/06/2008, -3/+5Where all the white woman at?
  • nastronomical, on 07/06/2008, -3/+1Mix the idea of right to die with the ignorance of people in todays world and nothing good can come about. Well, it may cut down on the Emo crowd?
  • rectagon, on 07/06/2008, -1/+1Let's get rid of all the suicide hotlines. Forget psychotherapy. Forget anti-depressants. Let's just let people off themselves as soon as they don't feel so good. Have a bad day? End it. Get some bad news? End it.

    When will it stop people? Who's gonna draw the line?

    For the record I know a whole whack of old people who dreaded moving into a seniors home/institution only to end up having a great time once they got there.
  • diazigy, on 07/06/2008, -2/+5I think assisted suicide should be legal. For three years before my grand father died, his quality of life was horrible. He was in and out of nursing homes. Eventually the medi-care ran out, and he had to live at home, with no nurse. My elderly grandmother struggled to take care of him. He could barely walk, and was eventually forced into a wheel chair. He would abuse laxatives, and wake up in the middle of the night ***** himself, and on the way to the bathroom, he would fall over because he was too weak to walk. I lived with my grand parents, and would often have to pick him up.

    One night, after he was covered in his own feces, and had blood coming down his head after he had fallen, I had to pick him up. He just turned to me and said "I hope the Lord takes me soon". He should have died 3 years before he did. His life, and all his loved ones would have been much better. He did not deserve to die like the way he did.
    • Ziggy7273, on 07/06/2008, -1/+1As undecided as I am about how I feel about assisted suicide your story compels me to agree in this situation.
      • rowlodge, on 07/06/2008, -1/+1damn why didnt you stay and help him?
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