What is Digg?145 Comments
- JDenigma, on 10/12/2007, -16/+90All empires collapse. History has proven this over and over. No Constitutional Republic like America has lasted longer than 200 yrs. approximately. Technically America has no longer been a Constitutional Republic for some time now. America is due for collapse. Batten down the hatches
- mk32066, on 10/12/2007, -14/+70This makes you wonder. Where could all of this madness be leading. Will it lead to the collapse of America as a world power.
- neggbird, on 10/12/2007, -22/+69I don't think the United States will ever truly collapes. I think it will just go into a slow decline until the rest of the world catches up to it, influence-wise. Evidence of this is already visible. The world is headed for a tri power arrangment, China, the European Union, and the United States.
- daRoach, on 10/12/2007, -1/+32Pearl Harbor was an attack by the Japanese, the parallels in the article site that the 9/11 attack and the Roman attack were both attacks done not by any nation, but rather "the disaffected of the earth".
- SmokedL, on 10/12/2007, -6/+30@Monolith2
"it's absolutely absurd to contend that George Bush is similar to Pompey, raising private armies and conquering the world at the peoples expense."
You can mention how many technicalities you wish. What has happened is still public knowledge:
The freedom of the US population has been severely curtailed through such obscenities as the PATRIOT act.
Wars of aggression have been launched with the flimsiest of excuses.
Torture has been employed systematically.
Torture has now been legalized.
The president of the US has been given the power to point at someone and declare them guilty without any trial.
And the list goes on.
Attempting to disprove what the whole world knows has happened the last few years, using nothing but empty technicalities, is not only intellectually dishonest. It's plain absurd.
You cannot change recorded widely known fact with rhetoric and technicalities. - jtcalhoun, on 10/12/2007, -10/+31@neggbird
The world is headed for a tri power arrangement: Eastasia, Eurasia, and Oceania. - matman730, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21The article isn't talking about the collapse of Rome. It's talking about the transformation of Rome from a democratic republic into a totalitarian empire.
- bitcloud, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22Or if you are wary of sites like that, read some legislation, some history, and turn off the TV.
It becomes very evident. the Left/Right, "with us or against us" divide and conquer paradigm is such a farce it would almost be funny if it hadn't cost so many lives...
We need to come together, and we never will while we have these habitual liars in power. - pmr07, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20Well, actually I do have an idea since it is my job to look at just that.
I should have been more clear in my previous post, but I was discussing primarily military technology. Like you said, the U.S. has been out of the consumer electronics race for decades. - pmr07, on 10/12/2007, -6/+23I certainly understand the author's point, but the collapse of Rome didn't happen until over 300 years after this event. In fact, the the height of the Roman Empire occurred well over a century after the attack. So to suggest that one directly lead to the other is a stretch.
The U.S. is not going to collapse and certainly not at the hands of a foreign state. The concept of mutual destruction ensures that. A slow decline by the U.S. in conjunction with the rest of the world catching up is already a reality. The American technological superiority is becoming smaller by the day as nations like China produce engineers and scientists at a rate far exceeding that of America. Current projections indicate that the U.S. will no longer be the technological capital of the world in as little as 10 years. Considering it is through the use of technologically superior capabilities that allows the U.S. to be the only current standing superpower. This is a troubling thought. - adml_shake, on 10/12/2007, -10/+26I've been saying for a while now that the US is like a modern day Rome. Watch some of those shows on the History channel about how Rome feel and tell me you don't see a lot of the same things happening today.
- EXreaction, on 10/12/2007, -6/+22"Roman people made decisions that set them on the path to the destruction of their Constitution, their democracy and their liberty."
Heh, we started on that road a long time ago...
With the damned "patriot act" you basically have no rights if the gov wants to watch you or cares about you...
Very few of the things in the constitution are even allowed any more...especially since people can sue you for saying something they don't like...
And there really is no democracy left, it is mostly run by a small group of extremely rich and greedy companies... - SteelChicken, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19Its a very good read. It brings up poignant ideas we should keep in mind, even today.
People can be motivated to give up anything they value, if they are scared enough.
Too much power should never be in one man's (or even one branches of governments) hands. There MUST be checks and balances, which the US is now losing. I dont think collapse is imminent, as long as the people have their bread and their circuses, but to deny the forboding effect of recent events is simply naivete. The Patriot act, approval of torture, warrantless wiretaps, all in the name of "security".
The downward spiral begins. The result is not inevitable however...if enough people speak up. But can the average American citizen giveup Walmart and Nascar long enough to care? Knowing human nature, I highly doubt it. - BruceDeuce, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15A better analogy to 9/11 would be the Reichstag Fire.
- dankoleary, on 10/12/2007, -7/+20This debate is no longer about the false left / right paradigm. We need to wake up and stop these people from taking over our country and stealing our rights. Visit www.prisonplanet.com for more information.
- goblindegook, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15So if a relative of yours turned out to be a terrorist, would you volunteer to be slaughtered?
- tastypastry, on 10/12/2007, -14/+27The US Government did plan out 9/11, why can't some of you people see this. Just look at the past, its been done before. This is nothing knew, even Hitler did it. Americans are just too brainwashed and believe everything the US Government and media tells them.
When you don't have an enemy you create one.
War is good for business.
Colonisam is sponsered by corporations thats why Halliburton gets paid to rebuild nations.
A true patriot questions their government. - cakestick, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14This "love it or leave it" nonsense has got to go, seriously.
Why should the intelligent people leave a free country to let a bunch of ignorant pricks destroy it? YOU should be the one packing your bags, jerk. - shanealeslie, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16@Artisian
Watch it bub, you've just put yerself on "THE LIST", nobody threatens our beer.
And hands off our beavers you pervert,
Heh.
But seriously, those that are smart enough to realize that the fertilizer is about to hit the windmill are quite welcome to emmigrate to Canada. Do it soon though, because discussing leaving the country due to the actions of the govenment will soon become 'thoughcrime'; and they can legally dissapear you now. - boomshakalaka, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13"Rumors about him changing term limits? You mean like the one you're trying to start right here?"
he's talking about this: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.J.RES.24.IH:
not proposed by the prez, but frightning nonetheless - cakestick, on 10/12/2007, -13/+23@Monolith: The writer is simply drawing parallels, but thanks for making sure we all know you're a history genius. Cheer up, kid.
- WinterSolstice, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13Umm - hello? What indicators are you looking for?
Economic decline? Check out our "balance sheet" (exports/imports/debts).
Decline in freedom to assemble? You can see that one yourself. Make a little poster stating that you disagree with IRS and go stand outside their office. Bring 4 or 5 friends. Be quiet and respectful, but remind people who ask you to leave that you're on public property. The police will be called, I'd bet money on it.
Decline in state's rights? Look around - find me a state that is willing to stand up to the Feds. Even something as minor as gay marriage became a huge issue. That's because there are some little federal loopholes that require all states to support one another's laws.
Decline in personal revenue? Check and see if your pay raises have kept up with the COL. I know mine haven't.
Decline in military power? I have no idea on this one, but I'd not take any wagers on a war between the US and China. 40 years ago the US was held in military check by the USSR, and that was just because no-one was sure of the outcome. Now it would only take some random "trade issues" with China to bring our military and economy to a standstill. Sure - bombs are great, but our military runs on silicon, and no-one in this country could supply our war-level or peace-level consumption. Futuristic soldiers look cool until you realize that everything they wear says "made in china" on it somewhere.
What have we been getting BETTER at? Cause we're certainly not holding even.
-WS - FunnyBuzzy, on 10/12/2007, -9/+18 The Grand Chessboard http://www.wanttoknow.info/brzezinskigrandchessboard
American Primacy And It's Geo-strategic Imperatives
Key Quotes From Zbigniew Brzezinksi's Seminal Book
"In the long run, global politics are bound to become increasingly uncongenial to the concentration of hegemonic power in the hands of a single state. Hence, America is not only the first, as well as the only, truly global superpower, but it is also likely to be the very last." (p.209)
"Moreover, as America becomes an increasingly multi-cultural society, it may find it more difficult to fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues, except in the circumstance of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat." (p. 211)
I`ll let you guess what truly massive, and widely perceived direct external threat brought us all together at least for a while was, and why we are so involved in the middle east now.
This is an excellent read from Zbigniew Brzezinski, Not that I agree with him, but it lets you see what line of thinking is at work behind the scenes.
According to his resume, Zbigniew Brzezinski lists the following achievements:
Harvard Ph.D. in 1953
Counselor, Center for Strategic and International Studies
Professor of American Foreign Policy, Johns Hopkins University
National Security Adviser to President Jimmy Carter (1977-81)
Trustee and founder of the Trilateral Commission
International adviser of several major US/Global corporations
Associate of Henry Kissinger
Under Ronald Reagan - member of NSC-Defense Department Commission on Integrated Long-Term Strategy
Under Ronald Reagan - member of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board
Past member, Board of Directors, The Council on Foreign Relations
1988 - Co-chairman of the Bush National Security Advisory Task Force.
Brzezinski is also a past attendee and presenter at several conferences of the Bilderberger group - a non-partisan affiliation of the wealthiest and most powerful families and corporations on the planet. - gotacid, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11You would need a nation of people with no moral opposition to murdering thousands of innocent people to achieve any kind of results with that.
- Goner, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13unrelated? The whole point of the article is to hypothesize the parallels between this ancient event and 9/11. Please RTFA before commenting.
- WinterSolstice, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Yes - the "Roman Empire" is kinda the key there... Rome went from a City-State to a huge Republic to an incredible Empire. The problem that eventually caused the Empire's fall was the overly expanionist attitude and the reliance on mercenaries.
The problem that caused the Republic's fall was this incident and the power grab.
-WS - TheWriteGuy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12"it's absolutely absurd to contend that George Bush is similar to Pompey, raising private armies and conquering the world at the peoples expense."
Modern-day analogy: Halliburton
By the way, Robert Harris (writer of the article) is not a reporter, per se, but a historian, author and novelist. (He wrote Fatherland and Enigma.) - foolfromhell, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Rule of Aquisition #34
War is good for business - Raian, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9That sound you're hearing which resembles a boom is actually GM & Ford laying off more people...
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -21/+28Wow, this guy really manages to pummel the crap out of history. Reporters need to stick with reporting, not trying to interpret history. With what little we know of Roman history, you could literally write a just as convincing article about any of the dozens of chaotic events that shook the republic in the years before the empire. He doesn't even mention that after Pompey returned to Rome from his conquests in the east that - because there were suspicions he wanted to wrest supreme control of Rome away from the senate - he disbanded his armies.
Besides, this guy completely ignores the ACTUAL dictatorship of Sulla from 20 years earlier. Sulla really did have complete control, given to him by the senate, and he relinquished it at the end of his term.
All of that aside, however, and what you're left with is a reporter just trying desperately to attach the cliche'd story of Rome's decline and fall to America post-9/11. And while i agree we are headed down a dangerous road, it's absolutely absurd to contend that George Bush is similar to Pompey, raising private armies and conquering the world at the peoples expense. Pompey wasn't held to term limits, Pompey didnt have to ask congress before he invaded a country, Pompey wasn't crucified by the Roman media for everything from being too fat to torturing prisoners. Pompey really was 100 times worse than any of us can imagine now that we're 2000 years removed, and he wasn't even the one that finally brought about the end of the Republic. So yes, im digging this down for being inaccurate, lame, and downright absurd! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13But according to Woodard's new book the administration turned a blind eye to the terrorist threat, in my opinion, so they would have the response needed from the American public to attack Iraq. I think the next time a terrorist attack happens, things are going to fall just like Rome but definately worse.
- realyst, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
And stop being an ignorant dumbass. This is a valid historical precendent. No one's telling you to get rid of the hat the GOP gave you when you made the coleslaw for Rove's picnic. No one's burning a flag here. Only sounding a warning bell. - squarooticus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7When the US falls, people will be forced to learn what freedom and liberty really are and how they are best protected. I long for that day.
- artisian, on 10/12/2007, -10/+16Time to invade Canada!
The economic influx from sales of Molson and hockey pads will prop up the U.S. and let us last forever!
Plus I hear they have cute beavers up there... - johnist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5it is more likely that he will enact laws that will bind us long after his term is over. also let's not forget that the pres isn't the only one in office making these changes either, it is the neo-con machine.
j - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5No, they knew there would be an attack, where and when. Churchill knew, as did Roosevelt. It was deliberately concealed to get the American public behind the US entering the war. This was a legitimate thing to do as history records. Rather than the "false flag" event that 9/11 was (an artificially constructed attack, blamed on islamic terrorists, for the purpose of allowing the global military industrial complex to prosecute and benefit from entering a war without end).
- johneffort, on 06/06/2008, -1/+5I do think the US will collapse in a few years. And it will be massive.
Considering the ENORMOUS debts america has all over the world, and the continuing spending on the war and security, which will only increase, there will be a day that Japan and China trade their Dollars for Euro's and stop paying America's economy. On that day, in a few hours, America will be bankrupt and very isolated. Dollars will be worth nothing.
If you think this is nonsens, this theory has been backed up by Alan Greenspan, and several very high-ranked economists. It's just a matter of time. - erkokite, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Bush is not the root cause of the problem. He is the puppet of the PNAC. All the PNAC has to do is find a replacement, such as the many neocon senators in congress, no big deal for them.
- nodeg, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Molson is half-owned by Coors. Not that it matters. For the most part, it's just tourist beer that we feed the yanks to give them an idea what beer tastes like with alcohol :)
- erkokite, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6How are supposed to know how to fix our country if we do not recognize it's problems because of blind faith in the government? I too am sick of the love it leave it crap.
- cakestick, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I am proactively disgusted by how much it will be used by politicians in the next 4-5 weeks. It's entirely relevant to this article.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+112001 just called, it wants its knee-jerk response back.
- WinterSolstice, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I dread that day - I hope that the US never falls, but simply stumbles occasionally and rights itself.
I hope that (to paraphrase Lincoln) "the government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from this earth". It's a damn good idea, and I want it to last.
My concern with this thread in general is that Americans seem to fall into 3 loose categories:
1) OMG we suck
2) OMG we rock
3) Uhhh - what the heck?
I myself fall into 3. I'm really concerned (not about the Rome parallel - that's a well known thing). I'm concerned that the Populace of this country has fallen into the trap of self-delusion and self-aggrandizement. This is not baby+bathwater time or anything. This is just yet another opportunity for the people of the US to vote with their brains - on every issue they encounter. Stop letting other think for you. Take a civics class. Know AT LEAST as much about the USA as an immigrant who just got his green card does.
When everyone here knows, and everyone here cares, then it will work well. We must avoid both the tyranny of the majority and the tyranny of the minority to walk a reasonable line.
-WS - stonebear, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4The collapse of Rome had nothing to do with sex. It had to do with rampant greed and corruption at the highest levels of government; it had to do with the mingling of church and state; it had to do with the suppression of the civil rights of Roman citizens (for their own safety, of course); it had to do with overrunning the Roman heartland with foreign slaves so greedy businessmen could have cheap labor; it had to do with repurcussions from Rome’s endless wars of aggression against it’s neighbors.
Does any of that sound familiar? - Geekbeard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"Over the preceding centuries, the Constitution of ancient Rome had developed an intricate series of checks and balances intended to prevent the concentration of power in the hands of a single individual."
*****. The Roman Senate appointed dictators (magister populi) in times of emergencies since 501 BCE, who had the power to unilaterally change laws, sentence to death without trial, and have unlimited military control.
Moreover, as far as I have read of the ancient sources, they do not directly connect the sack of Ostia with the lex gabinia. The 'real' reason is this: "The power of the pirates extended over the whole area of our Mediterranean sea. The result was that all navigation and all commerce was at a standstill; and it was this aspect of the situation which cause the Romans, who were already short of provisions and expected a real breakdown in supplies, to send out Pompey with a commission to drive the priates off the seas" (Plut. Pompey 25). Cassius Dio also mentions to neglect the sack of Ostia in connection with Pompey and the Pirates. Pirates were capturing cities all over the Mediterranean, so I fail to see how this relates in any way to 9/11.
He's a good fiction writer, though, but not much of an historian. - meepus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Yeah Crabby! All blacks are democrats! To think otherwise would be completely irrational!
I hate when people assume things about people's political affiliations based on nothing but skin color or religion. It's ignorant. Not to mention the 'r' word. - rbanffy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@jtcalhoun,
I laughed, but then it came to me it's our future we are talking about. - tbf4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2To clear up an old misquote, the line attributed to Ben Franklin is
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
The key words there being essential and temporary. - lopla, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2America is driven by 2 issues and 2 issues only. Gays and Abortions. The party which is against Gays and Abortions will have unlimited power. The religious right that controls the American government will allow ANYTHING as long as gays and abortions are deemed evil. No matter what the cons do, no matter how outrageous or disastrous to America, they have a 100% free pass. So it's simple... America is 2 insanely insignificant issues that override 100's of vital issues to our survival. Because of this the Constitution has been destroyed and we will fall. What else can be said other than it's well deserved.
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