What is Digg?197 Comments
- chase001, on 10/10/2007, -4/+106An education system that forces obedience and repetition instead of critical thinking is broken.
- fixty, on 10/10/2007, -3/+60I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uhmmm, some people out there in our nation don't have maps and uh, I believe that our, I, education like such as uh, South Africa, and uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as, and I believe that they should, uhhh, our education over here in the US should help the US, uh, should help South Africa, it should help the Iraq and the Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future, for our children.
- openthink, on 10/10/2007, -2/+52good piece, with some excellent perspectives. i agree, it's unfair to blame public education for all the failures. on the other hand it is fair to blame specific school systems for certain failures -- where those schools plainly operate badly, spend significant amounts of taxpayer money inefficiently, wastefully (and sometimes criminally), and where the managers of the school system fail to encourage and reward genuinely effective teaching and instead support existing management (themselves) and entrenched teachers (through tenure & other ways) who are demonstrably incompetent and held to no reasonable standards of accountability.
- zombiedepot, on 10/10/2007, -0/+31"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
- ArchonSG, on 10/10/2007, -1/+27I believe its more of the truth in the saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink it."
So long as the students themselves have no will to learn, they''ll remain uneducated and ignorant. Instilling that will is the job of both parents and teachers whom I have to say, have a rather uphill task due to social and peer pressure which rewards looks and physical abilities over mental prowess and academic knowledge.
You don't have to look further then your schools and general media to see this in effect. Jocks and cheerleaders are and often portrayed in the media as the popular elites while geeks and geekettes are more often then not the butt of jokes and or shunned as pariahs.
Being smart isn't a crime.
When people stop acting like it is, maybe things will change. - Indyanna, on 10/10/2007, -2/+25Got kids? Then it's YOUR primary responsibility as a parent, to teach them good character qualities, high moral standards, ethics, decision-making skills, life skills, critical thinking. That's the main education that they need, and it's something that only a parent can give. A good classroom teacher can reinforce these qualities, but that's the extent of it.
A person can have access to the best education in the world, but without a solid foundation of good character to build upon, it's a total waste. On the other hand, a youngster who has a good character can, and will, make the most of even a poor academic situation. - mpn401, on 10/10/2007, -1/+18Perhaps it would do better if high schools weren't state-funded day care centers.
- computergod, on 10/10/2007, -4/+17If school funding was from the property taxes of the whole state instead of just form one area then schools would get equal funding and the problem of "poor inner-city schools" would be gone. I'm sure that would help things out, works great here in Toronto even though it is only city wide instead of province wide.
- firewolf223, on 10/10/2007, -11/+21I think schools generally spend money as best they can. I think the problem definitely lies in parents believing that learning is SOLELY the responsibility of the school.
- mpn401, on 10/10/2007, -2/+11"There is no reason to teach kids to become politically active."
Woah, where can I start on what's wrong with this statement? - vault, on 10/10/2007, -3/+11I don't agree with this blog post at all, and it misses the point of the original Harper's article. The standards to become a public school teacher are too low, the schools themselves are underfunded, and our approach to education is really just memorization.
Instead of saying "it's not any worse now than it was before," let's try to improve what we do have so that we can be competitive with the rest of the world. - RansomDenton, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9I agree and I am in the trenches. I would love every student that crosses the threshold of my classroom to have at least three logic/reasoning/critical thinking classes before they leave the public school system. Most of my students cannot problem solve at any level much less a high level and I am saddened every day I enter the classroom. We need pure rational thought no right wing, no left wing just thought, analysis and reflection.
- synapz, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfRUMmTs0ZA
- cygnus2112, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9So then.. why are private and charter schools and parents/home schooling doing a much better job at education (higher test scores, higher SATs, fewer drop-outs, less violence, etc) than public education? It costs *more* money for a child to be taught in public schools than it costs for them to be taught in a private school - for an inferior education. Did you know that?
- rlh1, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9It's not a new phenomenon, this has been the case for a long time.
40 years ago, my friend graduated from high school. He got C and B grades all the way through. Couldn't fill out the job applications when he went out looking for work. He then went to a private reading school and within a year he was on 12th grade level. I think the public schools have been failing for a long time. - tomboy501, on 10/10/2007, -3/+10How to operate successfully in society is also one of the 'basics' of school education. It's not taught. It's just there. The social elements are just as important as the educational ones.
Politics, sex, and, (gasp), gay people are part of society. Why shouldn't kids be educated as these issues come up in their lives? Education=power and choice.
/liberal (sue me) - p0tent1al, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7Maybe if people didn't expect the government to take care of them and their kids so much, maybe kids would be learning something. Parents especially have no one to blame for their kids stupidity but themselves, PERIOD.
Maybe if our country didn't make you send your kid to school, maybe it would be different. I mean, the last time I checked, this country was proclaimed "free", but yet people are forced to send their children to schools who teach kids straight out of a book, teaching them things of no value whatsoever in the real world. And don't give me that "you can choose to go to private school" crap either. I
'm still pissed off that I had to go to school, when I could of been sitting in a library, actually learning. - faskill, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7I believe it will only get worse since we've engendered a society that is more concerned with whether or not educational content might offend someone instead of how well the content would educate an individual. Remember when we could read Huckleberry Finn
in the classroom? Now, due to language taken from the time and incorporated into the book, it's being banned from schools.
Oh, and all this "it's okay as long as you tried," and "well you didn't win little Johnny, but here's a trophy anyway because you're all winners!" attitude. Teaching children the joys of success and the ability to overcome defeat is quintessential to their development. - MillionsLivio, on 10/10/2007, -3/+9The issue with the schools is that they (thanks to the wonders of the No Child Left Behind Act as well) punish the more intelligent of the bunch, they do not efficiently teach the average student, and they spend far too much time on the kids that (to put it bluntly) just don't give a *****. I am all for kids getting the attention they need, everyone learns on a different level, however a lot of these kids from my experience just do not care and are not "slow" at all. We need different levels of being taught and kids should not really be restricted to classes due to age and should take classes based on their strengths and weaknesses at a young age to help this. Personally, I was in an advanced learning ("Spectrum" as it was called) class and we got our funding cut badly over the years due to many horrid misuses in funding. That class helped us more than any other thing I learned in public school. It taught me critical thinking and to take charge and do things efficiently based off of facts. This sadly is far from what the usual public school classes teach.
The parents need to strive to teach their kids at an early age at home as well, my parents did that for me and I cannot begin to say how much that helped me when I actually got into school. It gave me a few years of a head start and it continued. The politicians these days don't really seem to care, even if they did they come up with inefficient programs. The teachers in general don't really seem to care, as they come into the field with a joy for teaching and are quickly smacked in the face with the reality of it all and slowly (or quickly) loose that energy and become a void of sorts. Everything about it from the schools, the programs, to even the way kids are taught at home is corrupt and needs a change. Sadly though, unless something drastic happens, I really do not see that happening. If I have a kid, you can bet your ass I will home school them through the Internet. I am finishing up my last two years of high school and taking starting college on the side while doing this and it is fantastic. I have teacher remotely that I am in contact with everyday, the quality of education is great, and I can do the work at my own pace, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. I quickly get the work done and actually enjoy the experience, I advise everyone to look into programs like these and see if there is one around you. - ruyn, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6I agree with most of this article but the fact it is not just low income families that have stupid parents complaining about how the school has caused their children to be stupid. I graduated from a small parochial school with a fairly high tuition rate. Still many parents complain that this school that supposedly supported at some or another is reason their child is as dumb as a brick. When in fact it their fault for not helping their child in school with his school work. It starts with the parents and ends with the school!
- peterinjapan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5Hmm, I'm an American living in Japan, and (as I've written in my blog many times) the Japanese are just plain more focused on education than we are. I was fortunate to have a mother who was prepared to push me to go to college, but her dedication paled compared t the energy the meanest Japanese parent puts into their own children's education. Education is very complex in Japan -- compulsory education ends at age 15, thus high school is optional (like college) and there are different high schools for different purposes (low-level commercial high schools, high-level college-prep high schools, and actual competition to get into the best ones). For college-bound students, it's a given that parents will go the extra mile, putting their students in "cram schools" (a bad translation of "juku," really an evening school that follows the school's studies and adds extra study time for college prep). It'd be interesting if we had something approaching a system like this in the U.S.
- Itazura, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4"Public education in America is trying to do something unprecedented. We strive to educate every child — regardless of race, creed, socio-economic level, family background or mental and physical challenges. Universal public education is a relatively recent idea. It is no longer just the children of the upper crust who are being educated. Public education serves the masses. This is a commendable concept, but it’s one that obviously presents a unique set of challenges."
I'm sorry but no, it is not "unprecedented" at all, there are several countries that do this (Canada, UK, etc.) and they are ranked higher than we are. Though the article makes some interesting points, this one is false. - HillerMylife, on 07/24/2008, -1/+5Most Christian private schools are Catholic schools, and they teach evolution, too. I went to Catholic school all my life, and I wouldn't change a thing.
- XopherMV, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Teachers don't get mad at questions relevant to the topic. Teachers don't even get mad at the occasional stupid question. Teachers do get mad when students deliberately act like *****, which is quite often. Teacher's aren't your parents, who think you're cute regardless of the ***** you heap upon them. Teachers are adults and like all adults, would like to punch you in the face for the ***** that comes out of your mouth. And believe me, they would do it if they could get away with it. Instead, they slap you on the wrist and give you detentions, which you howl and whine about like a bunch of little, immature schoolgirls.
- Leomarth, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4Compared to a great school program (which are very few, and very far between thanks to over reaching government involvement) homeschool isn't great. But good luck finding a great school program.
But seriously, if a few nuts pass down their ideas to their kids, that is a price of freedom. You have to put up with the quacks in order to be a little bit off base yourself. - MacintoshSauce, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4I guess you have never stepped into a modern classroom where using CELL PHONES and IPODS are the norm. Try to teach in an environment where students think they have the right to use these so-called gadgets while a teacher is trying to teach them something important about the world around them.
- MacintoshSauce, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Yeah, digg me down you stupid ***** idiots. God, I swear some people on these forums are as dense as my bloody shoes.
- thrallie, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4Yes, I agree. And before the Christian bashing people reply and say home school is evil and only for christians! I know a friend who goes to a private school, and that school is secular. They also teach evolution and have no prayer. So yes, you can put your child into a secular private school. I am going to a college currently..the teachers are more biased and preachy than any school I've gone to so far.
- Corrosionx, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4Why don't U.S. kids learn to read in phonics? When I learned how the kids in the U.S. learned to read I was completely baffled and understood very well how come 12 year old kids read at first grade level.
- XopherMV, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Beware of lies, damn lies, and statistics. The US attempts to educate every student through high school. Other countries split students apart in the 8th grade into different tracks. Their top students go to high school. Their bottom students either drop out or go to trade school. So, comparing the high school statistics from the US to these other countries is actually comparing all of our students to the top 50% of theirs.
The real question should be: given these different education systems, why did it take them so long to surpass us in the statistics? - Leomarth, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4Social skills are a red herring. There are myriad of ways to socialize your children outside of school. I would go as far as saying that if your children are only getting their socialization from schools, you're not parenting. Take them out to do little league, karate lessons, dance lessons - whatever they want. They'll get social skills, and you'll get time with your kids.
Social skills in school? Red herring. - MacintoshSauce, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Yes, please digg me down you stupid morons.
- dankCIA, on 10/10/2007, -3/+5While the standards for teaching are low the only thing lower is their salaries. It is becoming increasingly hard to get people to teach because the salaries are so poor that even those willing to make personal lifestyle sacrifices to teach others can hardly get by. The memorization approach is flawed but to some extent insures equal knowledge of a subject. It is unfair to blame a teacher who is responsible for hundreds of students for not being able to stimulate each and every one in the class room. Students are as much to blame for not caring about classes or desiring anything more than to memorize a few subjects and get an easy A.
- davecor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2I got really lucky - My family got transfered to Belgium for 3 years, I went to an International school. Nothing fancy or expensive, just a European model. We didn't have a TV and I read a lot, that was also a good thing. When I got back to the US, I can honestly say I was ahead of the the Seniors in my school system and I really didn't learn much after that.
Here is the main difference I saw between the two school systems; European schools treat their kids like they are intelligent and capable. Laziness is NOT tolerated, they worked us hard. A book report in 6th grade was expected to be 5-6 pages, include maps of the areas in the book, and historical timeline to show other events that were concurrent to the story. In America, we filled out a single multiple choice quiz, which many of my friends called "multiple guess".
Note that the European system would not have cost a penny more to use. - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4I blame parents, as well. School is merely a tool, a means to an end. It's what you do with it that counts. Parents need to teach their children to make the most of that tool.
I mean, you can either blow it off, completely wasting it. Or you can sit down, and learn what they teach, and mold yourself into a conforming sheep. Or, if you're really determined, you can take the basic knowledge they hand out, and use it as a springboard. Take in what's being taught, but then question it. Analyze it. Use that to hone your critical thinking skills. Become more than what the school means for you to be.
However, all of that comes down to the home. As I said, schooling is merely a tool. You can't learn how to use it in a classroom. It's up to parents to help their children reach their full potential. - MacintoshSauce, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Great points IMO. This is why I advocate virtual high schools. It works for a unique university like Western Governors University - http://www.wgu.edu. Why can't it work for the public school system?
- Halleys5th, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Yeah, why should we blame the education system for people being poorly educated?
Seriously, what would you expect from an organization that forces all homeowners to pay for it, all children to go to it, and all "teachers" to follow a government-mandated curriculum or else?
Also, is it actually thought of as a goal to educate mentally retarded students as fully as those with non-damaged brains?
Furthermore, which do you think is a more significant educational achievement: insuring that the dumbest students have the equivalent of a 2nd-grade education by the time they graduate, or insuring that the smartest students learn as much as they can, never being told to do menial tasks while the rest of the class catches up? How many dumb people does it take to change the world? How many smart people? - drewlynde, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Noam Chomsky says public schools were created alongside the industrial revolution to get citizens on their way to becoming better and more efficient laborers in a shorter time span.
It makes sense when you think of how kids are rewarded more so for attendance and keeping quiet in class than for having new and individual thought, which often seems to be criticized. - MacintoshSauce, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4Teachers work 5.5 hours a day? Who in the hell are you trying to kid, buddy? I am a Substitute Teacher, while working on my BA in Social Science. Most of the time, I am at work from 7:00 a.m. to 3 p.m. or even much later with only 30 minutes for lunch and no bloody bathroom breaks. 5.5 hours - I wish I had that luxury! You are generalising way too much IMO.
- RansomDenton, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3I would go further with the fact that our culture, American, does not value thought, reason or logic. We value things, objects not who made them or who came up with them or the people that work hard to produce them. We value people playing games for big money NOT thinkers and doers! If we want to change this basic level of American school age persons thinking we need games not like GTA but Run the Grand Logic Gauntlet. Problem is its not fun enough, no hot girls and no big guns and no running over stuff, because running over stuff is cool. I don't blame video games at all but the whole culture from "Keeping up with the Joneses" to "I gotta have that Nike please! I will just die if I got to school in KSwiss." No one cares if they go to school ready, prepared or with a vast knowledge of the world. Our wealth centered values are destroying the country one sporting event/pair of shoes/dress/car/makeover/manipedi at a time. We focus on stuff/looks, not thought and this indeed is pathetic. It is also why I fear vouchers/privatized education. That is all we need companies getting involved with education! They have done so well leading us so far I can't wait to see the utter failure a WalMart high school brings.
- netant, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Congratulations. You won't have a job then. The parents (or local right-wingnut) will bitch, and the administrators will make your job a living hell.
- netant, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2"I also argue that tenure is necessary because it allows good teachers to stretch the boundaries of their profession and take risks without worrying about being fired."
You see, you're part of the problem. Teachers on the primary school level absolutely should NOT have guaranteed job security for the rest of their lives (tenure).
Academic tenure exists because commonly accepted fact is frequently wrong, and new "truths" by their nature are vulnerable to incumbency and when they inadvertently end up challenging or destroying a special interest. The nature of any form of research is heavily dependent upon the reputation of the researcher. Without tenure, new research by new researchers would be suppressed by human nature.
The concept is that when a person is vetted to be able to meet the rigorous standards of producing truth, they need the job security to allow them to survive the entrenched backlash. Even if you don't like the truth, you can't argue that the person presenting it is unqualified. Think Galileo, Darwin, AND EVEN Einstein.
Primary school educators do NOT produce original research. That is not the reason why they are hired. They are not producing something that is new and vulnerable. They were never even embued with a right to instruct a class in the manner they think it should be taught. Their curricula is totally based on the dictates of the local and state school boards. Primary school educators are just as entitled to tenure as a policeman, a sanitation worker, or an architect. The reason primary school educators get tenure now is quaint custom and an artifact of the historical evolution of the education system over a hundred years.
Its (primary education) tenure which is used to protect bad teachers. Just as bad, it is an economic disincentive to remove bad teachers; parasitically allocating money to bad teachers and lawyers, rather than the educational system.
"Comparing teachers to business people, teachers are underpaid given their responsibilities."
What freaking whining. "The world is unfair". Now I know where all the goths/emos went when they needed to find a job. Of course teachers are underpaid compared to people in more lucrative and frivolous occupations. Its called capitalism. Teachers will (almost) always be underpaid as long as you live in a capitalist system. You wish to change that? Privatize the system. (And mind you, I am not an advocate of privatizing the educational system. I just hate teachers think they can hit up taxpayers for more money without correcting structural flaws that create the inequity.)
Everyone here criticizes the state of education, but no one appears to present a compelling argument as to what caused the major declines. I can see at least two major trends.
1) The cost of non-instructional administration has OBVIOUSLY ballooned in the past three decades. And no, I'm not saying fire all the vice-principals, just track down what caused that trend to occur and address it. Throw in litigation costs. There must be a way to mitigate that problem as well.
2) Realize that not alot has changed from 1977 and 2007. They were litigious back then, there was TV back then, many of the cockamamie policies and practices back then exist today. But I'd argue I graduated a much more knowledgeable and analytical student than a student who graduates today.
I'd argue the middle class is economically poorer today, and that affects everything, but more important, standards have devolved and more resources have been deliberately and inadvertently targeted towards the weakest performers in the class. Instead of taking the weakest performers and with investment force them to meet higher standards, administrations have LOWERED graduation requirements in order for the weakest 5% to "meet" requirements. And lowering expectations certainly lowers the impetus to achieve. "So what if I can't solve certain types of problems people thirty years ago were able to? I'm at the top of my class."
There needs to be major philosophic shifts in the manner parents and voters address publicly funded education. School has to stop being used as a form of day care or be wedded to the concept of uniform achievement. School has to start culling the herd, rather than lower the herd's standards for survival. Places like NY State has to say, "hey, we're moving the standards back to the 1970's (or 1950's) and if more kids flunk out, too bad." Once (a lot) of kids realize they are going to flunk out and not be coddled, they will be "motivated" to meet higher standards. - JFitzpatrick, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Nine Assumptions of Schooling
1. Social cohesion is not possible through other means than government schooling; school is the main defense against social chaos.
2. Children cannot learn to tolerate each other unless first socialized by government agents.
3. The only safe mentors of children are certified experts with government-approved conditioning; children must be protected from the uncertified, including parents.
4. Compelling children to violate family, cultural and religious norms does not interfere with the development of their intellects or characters.
5. In order to dilute parental influence, children must be disabused of the notion that mother and father are sovereign in morality or intelligence.
6. Families should be encouraged to expend concern on the general education of everyone but discouraged from being unduly concerned with their own children's education.
7. The State has predominant responsibility for training, morals and beliefs. Children who escape state scrutiny will become immoral.
8. Children from families with different beliefs, backgrounds and styles must be forced together even if those beliefs violently contradict one another. Robert Frost, the poet, was wrong when he maintained that "good fences make good neighbors."
9. Coercion in the name of liberty is a valid use of state power.
The above is a summary of some of John Taylor Gatto's writings. If you're researching the history of American education or every just stop and think "why the ***** is it like this?" I can't recommend the book "The Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto enough. He's even got he entire text online if you want to read part or all of it before purchasing an actual copy (or not at all.) pretty cool in my opinion.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm
If you don't feel like reading the book itself, his essays are excellent.
A collection of his essays and newspaper editorials: http://www.spinninglobe.net/gattopage.htm - parasitewasp, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2I don't think so, it cost $6.00 to watch a football game and thousands of people attend. Not to mention how much the concession stand makes.
- Blackbow, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Learning is 90% done in the home, modeled and nurtured by the parents. We can't blame the public school system for the lack of academic success of our children. Parents need to first look in the mirror. Having several friends that are teachers, you just can't believe the things that go on. Parents too busy working out at gym to help with homework. Parent coming to conferences drunk or high. Teachers having to pay for students school supplies because parents "can't afford it". Kids staying up to 11pm (elementary). The list goes on and on. As a father of three, I know I'm the real teacher. The public school system gives instruction and skills to practice, but the learning is really done at home.
- sparkleyflowers, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Mr. bako2 raises a very good point. We are breeding a nation of entitlement complexes through our children. So many Americans refuse to discipline their children. There are no boundaries, no rules, no consequences. Is it any wonder our teachers can't do an adequate job when little Johnny and his "ADHD" issues are constantly disrupting the learning process?
- JonnyTrombone, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3I once had a teacher (this was in High School), who had us do a class discussion thusly: What one or two things would you get rid of to make the world a better place? His starting proposals, if I remember correctly, were 'Homosexuals' and 'Liberals'. He egged the class on in this manner, and soon people were proposing 'Jews', 'Feminists,' 'Muslims,' etc.
This is a situation where both strict obedience and lack of critical thinking failed the students in my class. Because they anticipated what the teacher wanted to hear (and a few of them likely agreed on their own), they proposed the expulsion from society of most minorities save African Americans (likely because there were black students, and who could tell if someone were Jewish or Muslim?). The majority of the class was unquestioningly obedient- and when I spoke out (being a Jew, and not liking the idea of my own extermination), I was kicked out of the class.
Yeah, the American education system really works. - johndoenumber2, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3The fact is that the American education system is broken. It was better in the 1800s than it is today. It was when the federal government took over that things went down hill. The answer to our problems is the government getting out of the business of education and let educators handle the educating.
- norman619, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3When we are discouraged from being honest when we speak to one another then we have a major problem.
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