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131 Comments
- coheedcollapse, on 11/11/2007, -19/+76I would think that Digg of all groups would realize that different and new doesn't always equal bad. Linux is harder to optimize, but everyone here is hawking the hell out of it. The 360 is so easy to develop for because it's more of the same (very similar to PC), and the Wii is also more of the same (familiar programming), the PS3 took a totally different approach that is going to take a bit of learning to get used to.
- Klak, on 11/11/2007, -17/+47ps2 was hard to program for at the begining but it produced superior results by the end of the console run ie FFXII
- sanosuke001, on 11/11/2007, -14/+43I bought a PS3 recently as I wanted to try programming for it. I started writing a ray tracer using the SPEs. It is definitely much different from what I am used to. However, saying it is difficult to use the SPEs is just plain lazy. "The 360 is better because it's what we're used to" isn't a good reason to not develop for the PS3. (and has been stated by others isn't exactly true)
Main point, dev's who say the PS3 is too hard to develop for are lazy and useless. Take some time to think about it and you'll see that it is much more useful than old hardware ever could be for projects that can be easily run in parallel such as gaming. - o0joshua0o, on 11/08/2007, -1/+27I think Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft all innovated a lot this generation, but each in a different way. For Sony, it was the hardware, for Nintendo, the interface, and for Microsoft, the online capabilities.
- coheedcollapse, on 11/08/2007, -8/+30That's completely false. The same things were being said about the PS2 when it was released. People said it was too expensive and that there weren't enough games for it. The reason a lot of you people think that the PS2 launch went so well was because you're remembering how successful it is now. Combine that with the fact that you have a whole community of people who are deadset on the failure of the PS3 and you have a whole lot of misinformation.
- MaTT2011, on 11/11/2007, -18/+32So its "fun" because it requires more time and money to develop for compared to competitors platforms?
That doesn't sound fun at all....
I can appreciate that its fun in the academic sense; trying to figure out and master the new challenges presented and whatnot, unlocking the extra power that the ps3 may have over the x360 (graphics, essentially). But from a business standpoint, and from a gameplay design standpoint, these extra challenges equate to having to spend extra money just to get things running right. Not very fun in those terms. - TheNik, on 11/08/2007, -5/+19The PS2 was also the only one of it's kind when it was released (bar Dreamcast). The PS3, on the other-hand, actually had immediate competition (Wii) and long-standing (Xbox 360).
The situations are different, especially when you consider how mainstream gaming has become since the PS2 launched. - diizy, on 11/09/2007, -3/+15"It's a new platform for us. It's our first PS3 game. It's a challenging platform to develop on, but it's also one that has a lot of potential that's just waiting to be unlocked as people get to know it better and as developers get more skilled at utilising the machine."
To prove coheedcolapses point. - inactive, on 11/09/2007, -1/+13I have written software for multicore processors in the past (only quadcore, not for the PS3). From my experience, regardless of which platform you're writing for, a game developer would always be writing processes which run on multiple threads. Specifying a thread from a thread pool is similar to specifying a core for which a process is to run on. Thats not saying that threads have a 1:1 relationship with cores, but most OS's can split threads over cores automatically.
I could be wrong, but I can't imagine it would be much harder for a 360 developer to write multi-core based applications given they understand the development environment. - tallonx, on 11/08/2007, -3/+15Funny... I seem to remember a certain brand of computer which used to use PowerPC processors in their machines, and ATI based graphics....
But I must be wrong, because like you said, it's so different from a computer... - coheedcollapse, on 11/08/2007, -12/+23Do you program? If not, you're a hypocrite.
Also how does my inexperience in programming destroy my ability to note what I've read from multiple other sources? PS3 IS harder to develop for because it's new, while the other two are using stuff that developers are already used to. We've read this about a million times. I'd understand your response more if I said "All the programmers who think the PS3 is hard to code for are stupid, it's easy!".
That said, you don't have to be an expert on a subject to say what you know about it. - xOpifex, on 11/08/2007, -10/+19Not really, the PS3 has a large install base (granted not as large as Wii or 360), and it's not going away, so developers are going to have to learn it sooner or later. More than likely it will be sooner.
- coheedcollapse, on 11/08/2007, -5/+14So either 90% of Digg is composed of politician-lawyer-quantum scientist-DRM experts, or we're all attention whores?
There's a difference between voicing an opinion on something someone doesn't know very well and voicing an opinion based on multiple reports from people who know what they're doing. Of course no one on Digg is going to be an expert in 99% of the crap that makes it to the front page, but as long as someone puts out something that's at least somewhat well thought out, I have no problem if someone talks about a subject in which they don't excel in. Just my opinion though. - GMorgan, on 11/08/2007, -4/+12Semantics. They are similar things but in a different language with a few minor technical differences. The Cell uses an entirely different form of computation (vector processing).
Really it's like saying C# is nothing like Java when the context is a comparison to Haskell. - Harbinger67, on 11/08/2007, -3/+10If you're too lazy to cite the sources, don't make the argument and claim validity.
- staticneuron, on 11/08/2007, -0/+7Well considering the garage sequence in GT5 is nothing but a ray tracing simulation I think he might be on to something. :)
- tastypastry, on 11/08/2007, -0/+7And lets hope in the next generation they all learn from each other.
- PedleZelnip, on 11/09/2007, -7/+14Well, I can't say I've coded for a PS3, but it seems to me there's a slight bit of difference in complexity between farming out ray tracer work amongst the SPE's and developing a full-fledged modern game.
- PedleZelnip, on 11/08/2007, -3/+10But that's just it, I could find just as many articles (and I'm talking academic, peer-reviewed ones) that talk about how hard it is to code in a multi-core environment. Parallelism is HARD. Period.
I'm not saying the PS3 sucks, but given that there's much less tool support in that world than there is in others, the multicore problems become even more difficult as there's more details you're concerned with rather than being abstracted away by the tools. - JigoroKano, on 11/08/2007, -0/+7The Genesis wasn't hard to program for. It was a 68k and a Z80, two of the most well known CPU's of their day. Neither was the Dreamcast.
It was the Saturn that was the mutant. - inactive, on 11/11/2007, -0/+6To rune: No it's not true. YDL even comes with a compiler for Cell.
isaac is full of *****. and quite a lot of it. - merwin, on 11/08/2007, -2/+8I think that one can come to a reasonable conclusion that 90% of Digg IS composed of attention whores.
- ArrakisDune, on 11/08/2007, -2/+7Its not limited to vector based processing though, its just what its good at. Don't forget it still got the Power Architecture running all those SPE's.
I really admire the Cell processor, its an amazing piece of engineering. I just hope it gets put to more large scale use than a games console. - WhereAmI, on 11/08/2007, -0/+5You can't just bar Dreamcast, it had online play and some decent games. Online dial up play sucked, but you still can't count it. It was as much a part of last generation as the GC, XB, and PS2.
- kosan, on 11/08/2007, -1/+6I understand what you're saying but here's a different view on it.
The first game you make (i.e. when you initially create your engine) it's going to take a bit more time because of the learning. However there is an aspect of "fun" in knowing that while the engine works it has so much more potential as you learn more and more so future games will be that much better than the first game (an example of this is insomniac making the engine for resistance, then adding some cool new things for ratchet and clank, and now looking and using those improvements along with other new ideas for resistance 2. It's a definite feeling of progress which is fun.)
From a business standpoint it is hard to think about the extra time spent on that first game; however, with games being as competitive as they are it would be a lot easier to differentiate yourself if you manage to figure out how to pull off some cool stuff on this new platform. That could also be seen as "fun".
Lastly you touched on this a little bit but from an academic standpoint it's a lot of fun being challenged. Granted there are a lot of people (engineers or otherwise) who simply want to know how to do their job and get it done with as little trouble as possible. Personally i left my last job because while they paid great the programming was too trivial and i never felt challenged in the slightest. I took a job where i am challenged much more and actually fail from time to time. For some people this kind of learning and growth is fun and from the statements i would bet Kane & Lynch has several engineers with that same kind of mentality working on the game, so yes the 360 version may be _relatively_ easy but the PS3 is fun.
However i can see your perspective of why it's not fun, it's simply a matter of what people think is fun. - inactive, on 11/08/2007, -1/+6It is, but that has already happened. The Cell isn't just multithreaded, it's threaded across cores with different instruction sets. It's more like if you had a Core 2 Duo, except one of the cores was a PowerPC and one of them was X86.
- HappyScrappy, on 11/08/2007, -0/+5Great. So now you've shown that the developer didn't mean "fun" in the business sense of the word.
What exactly is the business sense of "fun"? - Toast1185, on 11/08/2007, -0/+5They're all computers...
- staticneuron, on 11/08/2007, -2/+7If you read more carefully you would realize that the PS2 had no SPU's so he must have been refering to the PS3.
- inactive, on 11/08/2007, -1/+6You realize that the CPU on the xbox has 3 cores and each of those supports two threads right?
- kilodelta, on 11/11/2007, -11/+16hey, some people also think getting a fist rammed up their arse is "fun".
- modix, on 11/08/2007, -1/+6That might be the first digg comment I've ever seen that has praised all three consoles in two sentences.
- charlescheese, on 11/08/2007, -0/+4Actually Ask, I think that there are a lot more people with PS3's now, and those of us that have them are generally pretty happy with them, especially now that the games are starting to pour in. I use my PS3 daily, be it for gaming, or movies. I think once people get their hands on one, they start to realize that the PS3 is not the great Satan.
If you recall, the first year of the 360 on Digg was absolutely bogged down in negative stories. People forget how rough the first year of the 360 was. There is definitely a tide change happening with the PS3. I think that's largely due to the price coming down, and the games coming in being very good. - jaynemother, on 11/08/2007, -0/+4Why would you TeaBag someone's popcorn
- FredFredrickson, on 11/11/2007, -4/+8Bashing Sony came long before any o the imbeciles on Digg ever worshiped Ron Paul.
- apoc06, on 11/11/2007, -0/+4http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_Games
it doesnt say that they've worked on any games for the ps3. if i remember correctly, IBM released their "octopiler" in 2005
http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/cellsw
oh wait... and here is the updated eclipse IDE:
http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/cellide
says here that it was posted last year. so at the VERY least there has been at least one IDE for the cell. codewarrior supported the cell since 2005 as well. you may be confused with the lack of a default compiler IDE for those that are using the ps3 to run linux.
finally, ANY developer who actually y'know? "develops" creates their own in house tools to assist them. so in combination with their graphics, sound, middleware and the compiler tools, they are creating their own proprietary stuff anyways. - NGliam, on 11/08/2007, -2/+6Sure, the first few games being developed for PS3 will have the programmers experimenting a lot.. but in the long run it'll be just like anything else; the more the use something the more you get used to it and the more you adapt to that architecture or .. whatever :P
- yoda17, on 11/08/2007, -0/+4I never coded for a CellBE, but I have coded for a similar processor. From my experience, programming for multi-core is about the same thing as writing a multi threaded app. The OS handles the problem of which processor should be running a thread at any given time. It gets a little more tricky when you start doing optimization, but nothing out of the ordinary if you have written device drivers.
I've heard that MS is working on their own processor for their next system and will be cell-like, so IBM(Sony) is just getting engineers ready for a paradigm shift.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_processor to get an idea of what is involved. - PinkoComrade, on 11/08/2007, -1/+5I see what you did there...
- dansmeek, on 11/08/2007, -0/+4So I would love some information (or links) as to the specific differences between the two. What I'm guessing is that on the PS3 a programmer can't simply spawn threads at will. That parallel processes have to be programmed for a particular SPU (which I'd hope will allow for more than a single thread), and that dumping all the different processes into a single SPU is not very efficient (but the easiest way to "port" code to PS3).
I don't quite understand what vector-based programming is. Is my basic understanding of these SPU's correct? - mywhitenoise, on 11/08/2007, -2/+6How so? Dreamcast had this 'long-standing' advantage of a year, and the competition (Gamecube and Xbox) followed a year after. I don't really think it matters who comes first.
- staticneuron, on 11/08/2007, -0/+4There were tools given out to all developers during devstation 2007. SPURS baisically holds devs by the hand. The reason you didn't hear about ease of use before now is because alot of devs were still concetrating on porting games so they wouldn't take advantage of the tools.
- Quaterni0n, on 11/08/2007, -0/+4No thanks. I'm happily employed. :)
I was extrapolating based on the specs, other developers' comments, my experience with the PS2 and Sony's total lack of useful development libraries. Then again, I may be wrong, but my experience based assumptions should carry more weight than random Internet dude's opinion. - GMorgan, on 11/08/2007, -4/+8Single core and multi core programming are entirely different. Generally we program in a straight line, instructions in sequence. When you deal with threads there is no easy way to know when threads are in sync and you have to do huge amounts of boiler plate coding to make them line up. Fortunately game programming has many obvious realms for threading like AI.
The PS3 is difficult because vector processors aren't suited to real time, in order, programming outside of a few things like graphics (which are handled by the GFX card) and physics. - sanosuke001, on 11/08/2007, -0/+4You need to write code separate from your main application that runs directly on the SPEs and you access it as if it were a separate function. It goes and does its thing and returns an answer. It's kind of like the way they do it now, but is accessed and set up a bit differently.
- HappyScrappy, on 11/08/2007, -1/+4I like this article, and yes, it's mostly because it says what I already agree with.
Basically, I do think the PS3 is tougher to develop for. But additionally, I think the game development business has expanded greatly and a lot of lesser quality programmers are being hired. These developers aren't necessarily good at what they do anyway, and so when presented with a difficult programming problem, they're in trouble.
In short, each developer who wants to write a game for PS3 is likely going to have to hire a few crackshot programmers who can handle the difficult aspects that arrive. Yes, it'll cost more, and these programmers can be difficult to find and hire.
But, it's not like it's impossible, companies just need to knuckle under and do it. - rune420, on 11/08/2007, -1/+4Is that really true? They only give out assemblers and no real compilers for it? If so I can understand the criticism, but that sounds unreal.
- FatAmerican, on 11/08/2007, -1/+4I remember Gabe Newell saying what a pain the PS3 is to code for. Apparently you have to be very experienced to do it and it's almost impossible to debug sometimes.
- staticneuron, on 11/08/2007, -1/+4Yes you are right but game developers build librarys and once the pass hurdles they won't have to make a climb again on the next game. developers aren't always thinking about the now, because of time it takes to make games they think of 2 to 3 games down th line and set goals. Besides, most devs are squeezing publishers for the R&D costs in promise for better performing and more appealing games in the future. Sorta the same tactics some used last generation.
- ArrakisDune, on 11/08/2007, -0/+3Huh? We've moved on from the abacus?
Why wasn't I informed? -
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