US Military Deserters
time.com — An exploration as to why some soldiers decide to leave active duty....
pizzler- 660 diggs
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- michael532111, on 12/13/2007, -8/+36Haunting and chilling. Thanks for the link.
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -15/+11I know I will be buried to oblivion for asking this but what was haunting and chilling about this? All I saw was a collection of casual snapshots of five guys who admit they ran from their duty, their friends and their responibilities because they were not and never were cut out for the job or for the war. I'm sorry I have no sympathy at all. If you don't think god wants you to shoot someone who ambushes you don't join the military. If you don't want to see carnage and hear the lamentation of injured men and women don't work at a military hospital, if you don't want to interrogate people who may be ready willing and waiting to kill your dumb ass don't join the ***** military. It is not easy, it is not always black and white, it is not always fun and rewarding. Even if there were no questions about the morality of this war these people would still have left and given the same reasons.
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -6/+11What's haunting is that people who joined the war for the right reasons found out they were doing the wrong things.
What's chilling is the things they saw and witnessed.
Whats upsetting is that they were deserters, and sadly couldn't change things from the inside out. But besides the title, the slideshow just gave their stories.- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -7/+4What wrong things were these people asked to do? Was it serve at a hospital? Was it retaliate when someone tries to kill you? Was it interrogate men and women when asked? Was it going to bootcamp?
Enlighten me, what wrong were these men asked to do? They made a poor choice and they tried to correct it with a poor choice.- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -5/+5They were asked to accept Abu Ghraib-like torture for prisoners as normal. They were asked to reprogram their brains and disregard their own thoughts. They were asked to torture Iraq families.
That one hospital guy wasn't asked to do anything wrong tho. He's a disappointment. And deserting for all of these men is in poor taste. - Gir53457, on 12/13/2007, -4/+1It's not a soldier's duty to question.
- niczar, on 12/13/2007, -0/+3They refused to take part in an illegal war. It is their duty, per the UN Charter, and the Nurenberg trials.
"I was just following orders" was not a defense for german soldiers, it is not a defense for US soldiers. - noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1@Niczar: You mean this congressionally approved and therefore legal illegal war?
@lydecker: If he was asked to accept that as normal he had a duty to not only disobey that order but pass it up the chain of command or seek legal council. They were not asked to reprogram and disregard their thoughts, he is being too literal, yes you knocked down at bootcamp and you are taught to follow a chain of command and not question orders (unless they are unlawful). They were not asked to torture Iraqi families he said he was told to interrogate the males of Iraqi families when they had been sent to their houses, entirely different. - nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1Exactly. These people think that since they watch the news, they suddenly know what they're talking about. In boot camp, they break you down and build you up, both physically and mentally. They make you stronger and give you the ability to think in a high-stress situation. They do not, however, brainwash you. In fact, they aren't allowed to voice oppinions about politics or the war. They teach you, and you learn, not forcibly push their way into your mind,
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -5/+5They were asked to accept Abu Ghraib-like torture for prisoners as normal. They were asked to reprogram their brains and disregard their own thoughts. They were asked to torture Iraq families.
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -7/+4What wrong things were these people asked to do? Was it serve at a hospital? Was it retaliate when someone tries to kill you? Was it interrogate men and women when asked? Was it going to bootcamp?
- BlueScreenOD, on 12/13/2007, -2/+4To an extent, I agree with you. I mean, a military can't function if every person on the ground level does what they think is the "right" thing to do. If a higher ranking member gives you an order, you're putting other people at risk by disobeying it. And besides that, a ground level soldier doesn't have all the facts to make decisions either. I'm not saying that a soldier should have no moral conscious, but for the most part a soldier doesn't have the luxury of doing only what he/she wants to do. If you can't accept that, don't join.
- Urusai, on 12/13/2007, -0/+8Any man who doesn't do what they think is the "right" thing is no man at all.
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1If you are ordered in the heat of battle to destroy a mosque courtyard what would you say? What happens if you say no, that's wrong, but what you didn't realise was that your officer had just recieved intel that a band of insurgents were moving to the courtyard and setting up mortar and sniper positions to fire on your unit? Ooops.
Troops are required to follow orders in combat, there is no time to question them, that is why, yes, just following orders is a defense for low ranking members, however, as Nurnberg shows it is not a defense for those officers who are privy to the intel and plans.
It could go the other way, the officer could have just been venting frustration but if so it is his ass on the line not yours. War is hell, bad things happen, don't sign up for the military if you cannot accept that.
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1If you are ordered in the heat of battle to destroy a mosque courtyard what would you say? What happens if you say no, that's wrong, but what you didn't realise was that your officer had just recieved intel that a band of insurgents were moving to the courtyard and setting up mortar and sniper positions to fire on your unit? Ooops.
- strangewill, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2Anyone who doesn't think about what the "right" thing is to do is therefore allowed to play the "but my superior commanded me to do it" card, which is *****.
- niczar, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1Disobeying illegal orders, refusing to take part in an illegal war, a crime against peace, is their duty.
Read up on the Nurnberg trials.
- Urusai, on 12/13/2007, -0/+8Any man who doesn't do what they think is the "right" thing is no man at all.
- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -1/+6"Even if there were no questions about the morality of this war these people would still have left and given the same reasons."
I think their statements point to the contrary. Most of them suggested that they joined up under the assumption that they would see combat, and that the reasons for the war turned out to be false and misleading. There's also something to be said for those who would refuse to disregard geneva conventions or to assume non-combatants are somehow below the protections of the US constitution. - gernblansted, on 12/13/2007, -2/+2Five guys who ran from their duty? What do you think about G.W. Bush? Or Bill Clinton? Dick Cheney?
I'm just curious if your aversion is selective.- strangewill, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1These men aren't boasting their service, they're feeling it as a let down, a disgrace.
- flood6, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3You did get buried and I really don't understand why. As a veteran, I have to say that the military isn't for everyone; and this shouldn't surprise any rational person. I think some of the fault for the wrong people joining the military belongs on the military recruiting tactics - the commercials of sailors playing basketball, of airmen snowboarding may give young prospects the wrong idea. When you join the military, you sacrifice most of your right to think for yourself - you do what you're ***** told.
That lifestyle can suck at times, especially if you're doing something dangerous, scary, and/or morally reprehensible to you. I think the people in this story took the decision to become soldiers too lightly.- Groovemaster, on 12/13/2007, -5/+3"When you join the military, you sacrifice most of your right to think for yourself - you do what you're ***** told."
Wow! You sound so manly and hardcore when you talk like that! It sends shivers down my spine!
In all seriousness though, you sound like a ***** cretin. Your brand of subservient, unquestioning thinking was just as useful to Hitler as it is to Bush/Cheney.- mciampa1214, on 12/13/2007, -2/+4It's because of people like flood6 that you have the luxury to sit around surfing digg why can't you be more thankful. Hate the game not the player.
- Groovemaster, on 12/13/2007, -5/+3"When you join the military, you sacrifice most of your right to think for yourself - you do what you're ***** told."
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -6/+11What's haunting is that people who joined the war for the right reasons found out they were doing the wrong things.
- xGORDOx, on 12/13/2007, -4/+5What is haunting is how stupid the first kid was. "I was taught to think for myself, but the boot camp was like, reprogramming." What hell did he think it was gonna be, ***** computer camp!? What a tool.
- themastersb, on 12/13/2007, -4/+4Joining the military makes you a murderer. Prove me wrong.
- 11b1p, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3I have been in the Army since 1999 and haven't killed anybody. Even went to Iraq once.
- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -0/+3Is killing someone wrong if they try to kill you? A guy is running at you with a knife. You have a gun. You can't honestly say that you wouldn't shoot him. As he was dying, he told you there was a gang of people just like him who were gonna kill your family. and you are the only one with the power to stop it. Could you really say that you would sit back content in the fact that the idea of people trying to hurt you is ridiculous? I challenge you to see things from a different perspective. Rethink yourself.
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -15/+11I know I will be buried to oblivion for asking this but what was haunting and chilling about this? All I saw was a collection of casual snapshots of five guys who admit they ran from their duty, their friends and their responibilities because they were not and never were cut out for the job or for the war. I'm sorry I have no sympathy at all. If you don't think god wants you to shoot someone who ambushes you don't join the military. If you don't want to see carnage and hear the lamentation of injured men and women don't work at a military hospital, if you don't want to interrogate people who may be ready willing and waiting to kill your dumb ass don't join the ***** military. It is not easy, it is not always black and white, it is not always fun and rewarding. Even if there were no questions about the morality of this war these people would still have left and given the same reasons.
- Groovemaster, on 12/13/2007, -41/+78These are the kind of troops I support: Those with conscience and integrity, who sign up intending to defend America and then desert when they realize their good intentions are being abused in a bogus war created to bring power and wealth to the corporate elite.
- Hortnon, on 12/13/2007, -40/+17So you support soldiers committing federal crimes, possibly punishable by death?
In other words, you don't support following the law, you support anarchy?- Groovemaster, on 12/13/2007, -9/+30If the law requires soldiers to continue killing - or supporting the killing of - innocent people when it's become obvious to them that they're fighting an unnecessary, illegal and immoral war, then yes I support breaking that law until America becomes civilized enough to change it.
- loudmouth11, on 12/13/2007, -17/+8i think you are retarded, it is not that they are supporting killing innocent people you are completely trying to make this look like something its not
- captric, on 12/13/2007, -13/+3Right - Innocent people that just happen to be targeting civilian women and children, blowing them up with car bombs and cutting their heads off. You are a sick and misguided individual not able to make intelligent and informed decisions for yourself let alone the country as a whole.
- trevah, on 12/13/2007, -1/+8Umm, those aren't the innocent ones. I'm pretty sure they don't ALL blow up car bombs and saw people's heads off. Nice way to be informed, intelligent, and not make sweeping generalizations. Hypocrite.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3I think he must be talking about those evil innocent people who would do all those things EVEN IF WE HADN'T ILLEGALLY INVADED THEIR SOVEREIGN NATION TO STEAL ITS OIL!
- Dukeye, on 12/13/2007, -1/+24"May we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
Aggressive, offensive war was prosecuted as a war crime at the Nuremburg trials.
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
It is not these brave men who are the criminals. If we cannot hold our elected officials to the law (Congress officially declare war), how can we persecute these soldiers? - hambend, on 12/13/2007, -4/+14If everyone thought like you, America would still be a British colony.
- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -4/+3That's a retarded argument.
- hambend, on 12/13/2007, -0/+4That's an ironic argument...
- trevah, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5It absolutely is not. Fighting the government of that time is what got America it's freedom. Try supporting your statement next time instead of just being derogatory.
- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -4/+3That's a retarded argument.
- MaximusPryme, on 12/13/2007, -3/+13Legality does not equal morality. If the law requires me to break my code of morals I would peacefully protest myself.
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -9/+6They have a status for that in the military....
Conscientious Objector.
Desertion is abandoning your duty, your fellow soldiers, and spitting in the face of your country.
And at the very worst, you are sending someone to die in your place....- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -0/+4People who follow unconstitutional and immoral orders are not in any way honorable. Pitiable, perhaps, but this has been a fool's errand.
Nationalist rhetoric like 'spitting in the face of your country' gives the false impression that the country is single-minded, or that the government is the country, the people. - thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -8/+2Tell that to the family of the soldier sent to replace a deserter.
DESERTION is wrong and in the worst circumstances CAUSES the deaths of one or more soldiers...
HOWS THAT for MORALS?
- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -0/+4People who follow unconstitutional and immoral orders are not in any way honorable. Pitiable, perhaps, but this has been a fool's errand.
- captric, on 12/13/2007, -6/+1Does your moral code involve saving innocent women and children or are you just looking out for yourself like a coward.
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -9/+6They have a status for that in the military....
- petrodollar, on 12/13/2007, -5/+10Jesus broke the law too. Deal with it.
- skyfire1, on 12/13/2007, -10/+1No he didn't.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -3/+2But jesus was a whiny *****!!
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1True, but Jesus wouldn't have deserted his unit, he would've followed orders and killed whomever... that doesn't sound right.
- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -0/+3You're right, that doesn't sound right coming from the man who saved the prostitute from being stoned to death.
Some will say individuals in the military engaged in war are different from those doing harm as civilians, but why? Just because your government absolves you of your sins by claiming they're on the side of right and god? That's still not an excuse for bad behavior.
- Groovemaster, on 12/13/2007, -9/+30If the law requires soldiers to continue killing - or supporting the killing of - innocent people when it's become obvious to them that they're fighting an unnecessary, illegal and immoral war, then yes I support breaking that law until America becomes civilized enough to change it.
- thadudesbro, on 12/13/2007, -7/+44I think the best way to support the troops now, is to do everything possible to bring them home.
- Dokument, on 12/13/2007, -9/+8then vote ron paul
- phnx0221, on 12/13/2007, -4/+6Or Dennis Kucinich.
- Dokument, on 12/13/2007, -9/+8then vote ron paul
- wilf_brim, on 12/13/2007, -21/+14Drop dead. They raised their hand, took the money, wore the uniform. You don't get to decide where, when, and how you fight. The elected political leadership gets to do that.
- carguy84, on 12/13/2007, -3/+12Umm wrong. They raised their hand, wore the uniform and went to war under false pretenses...
Don't even throw money into the equation as most soldiers border on poverty.- freehunter, on 12/13/2007, -4/+2As much as I support ending the war, soldiers have a job to do, a job they swore their life on, and that is to do whatever their superiors tell them to. Their superiors do what their superiors tell them to do, etc. They have every right to change their minds, but they have no right to leave in the middle active duty. That being said, I would support any soldier willing to go AWOL, I'm just saying they knew that they could be sent anywhere at anytime for any reason.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -2/+4Anyone signing up right now (or since 2002) is a ***** retard!
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -2/+1They made a mistake, a big one, not perfect like you or I ... 'um I mean 'me'.
- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -6/+3EXACTLY.
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -0/+4Exactly they are slaves until they die, or get their limbs blown off ... because it's so very important to ... ???
{overt-sarcasm}. - n00854180t, on 12/13/2007, -2/+3The oath they swore was to protect America, and to uphold the Constitution. Having been in the Army myself, and having taken that oath, I can say these good ole boys are the truest to it. Can you say the same? Goddamned coward.
- tasadar24, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5Do you know what you do when you enlist? You swear an oath, that oath I will paste at the end of this post, but the important part, and the words that I remember uttering is "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United Stated against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC". This administration has done anything but that. Now, I am not a deserter, in fact I still have 4 years left of my 6 year enlistment, but I'd just like to highlight that phrase so maybe you might remember it to.
Oh and, nobody thank me for being in the service, thank someone that's actually in Iraq or something.
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962)."
- carguy84, on 12/13/2007, -3/+12Umm wrong. They raised their hand, wore the uniform and went to war under false pretenses...
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -10/+7You are advocating running from the problem. wilf_brim is right, they took the money and agreed to do a job. If they disagree with what they are being asked to do they need to do something about it, not go and cower in the corner while their friends die.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -2/+6Okay, and what are they supposed to do about it then?
While in the system THEY CANNOT do anything about it.- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1Right there's never ever been a whistleblower in the history of the millitary, sure. Idiot.
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -3/+6Sir, permission to keep my limbs? sir.
Sir, permission not to be a murdering monster? sir. - PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -2/+5Bravado is for naught if you ignore what you've sworn to: The constitution and defense of the country from all enemies, foreign or domestic. It is not inconceivable that you may be given bad orders, and you should know when to refuse. Just following orders didn't work for soldiers in the Nazi regime.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -2/+6Okay, and what are they supposed to do about it then?
- thewhiterabbit, on 12/13/2007, -13/+4So you support pussies that are risking the lives of their fellow soldiers?
- Groovemaster, on 12/13/2007, -2/+5These men are not "pussies".
They refuse to contribute to the deaths of innocent people for a war based on lies and they're willing to put their name and reputation on the line in order to remove themselves from that disgusting cycle of corruption.
That takes more guts, integrity and altruism than you're capable of comprehending.
As for risking the lives of their fellow soldiers, they didn't desert during combat (they learned that the war was a fraud by doing their own research - which was obviously not done while they were in combat) so your argument fails.- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -7/+1They were not asked to kill innocent civillians, if they were they have every right to disobey that order, these men, and if you watched, they tell you so, simply couldn't cut it.
- Groovemaster, on 12/13/2007, -2/+5These men are not "pussies".
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -6/+10"So you support soldiers committing federal crimes, possibly punishable by death?"
I'd rather be a dead criminal than murder an innocent person. Can you agree on that at least? - edwartica, on 12/13/2007, -3/+2I still can't support these troops. I can't support any troops.
- cawpin, on 12/14/2007, -2/+1You support stupidity. There is no integrity here. They signed up, completely voluntarily by the way, to do a job and then decided half way through they didn't want to play anymore. They knew all of their responsibility up front and chose to ignore it. They should be put in prison according to the UCMJ.
- Hortnon, on 12/13/2007, -40/+17So you support soldiers committing federal crimes, possibly punishable by death?
- Happy_Phantom, on 12/13/2007, -17/+72If you leave your unit, you weaken your unit, and disrupt unit cohesion. If you do it in combat, team members can die as a result. Declaring yourself a conscientious objector brings disdain, but is not classified as desertion. The situations are different and are treated differently. Most of them were conscientious objectors, or at least presented themselves as such.
- scottpigeon, on 12/13/2007, -1/+29Not everyone who applies for conscientious objector status is approved.
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -7/+14Tough *****. They signed up and took an oath. There are TONS of other ways to LEGALLY get out of the military.
Desertion is just plain WRONG.- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -2/+5"There are TONS of other ways to LEGALLY get out of the military."
really? how? have you done this or are talking out of your ass?
i tried everything myself. desertion was the only way out i could find. - nickdngr, on 12/13/2007, -0/+4Really? Did you fail 5 PT tests? I put one of my Soldiers out for failing 6 and not being able to perform their duties. If you were in your first 2 years, were you counseled on such a regular basis that it qualified you for failure to adapt. How about talking to a Chaplain about your problems, which could have put you on non-deployable status for review. Yeah, I'm sure you exhausted every possible outlet and desertion was the right one; sounds like you're the one talking out of your ass.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -0/+0first, learn to reply to me in the proper thread.
second, i did many things, i talked with the chaplain multiple times, got sent to suicide support groups, when do they give PT tests, once every 6 months? how do you fail 5 of them? i never even had to take them,you have no idea what you're talking about. They don't just let people leave who want to leave, they do everything they can to keep you, until you hang yourself from a tree.
i wasn't even at risk to deploy when i left, i left when it wasn't wartime, you have no idea what you're talking about or what i or any of those kids experienced.
I like how you say "you put one of your soldiers out" you're not even an enlisted man, an officer who has every idea of what goes on, yet is feeding us ***** now, even when we're out.
hey. i sleep well at night.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -0/+0first, learn to reply to me in the proper thread.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -2/+5"There are TONS of other ways to LEGALLY get out of the military."
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -7/+14Tough *****. They signed up and took an oath. There are TONS of other ways to LEGALLY get out of the military.
- Groovemaster, on 12/13/2007, -3/+18Conscientious objector status requires you to object to ALL war.
It doesn't allow you to stop fighting just because you've realized you're not really there to defend your country.- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -9/+7If you area conscientious objector, then don't join the VOLUNTEER MILITARY. I can see such a thing in an Army formed by Draftees... but we don't have a draft. These pussies should STFU and serve the duty they signed up for, and don't re-up when their enlistment is over.
- Scynet, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1Of course you can join a volunteer military if you believe its duty is to protect the country, the families, the loved ones... I think that's the reason most people joined in the first place. If the military then assaults another country and kills and tortures its citizens under no obvious threat, you also have every right to get the ***** out of there. No law or oath should precede morals. That's what freedom is about.
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -8/+2Exactly....
If individuals in an Army decide they just plain don't want to fight, it breaks the units.... broken units are easily killed.
THERE IS A REASON INDIVIDUAL CHOICE UNDER LAWFUL ORDERS IS SUPPRESSED. It simply saves the lives of your soldiers.- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5I'd argue most soldiers don't want to serve with people who are unwilling to fight. They're likely a greater liability by staying in the conflict. Forcing people to do things against their will isn't a very productive solution.
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -3/+5Just like a deserter FORCES another soldier and his friends to do HIS duty?
- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -9/+7If you area conscientious objector, then don't join the VOLUNTEER MILITARY. I can see such a thing in an Army formed by Draftees... but we don't have a draft. These pussies should STFU and serve the duty they signed up for, and don't re-up when their enlistment is over.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -2/+13i agree with the weakening your unit speak, but seriously...these people didn't leave in the middle of iraq and dessert their unit while rounds were going off in their faces... they were likely on leave, already back home in the states and just didn't return to duty. Is it really an outlandsish thing to believe people weren't available to fill their slots?
- SpacePoet, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1No one deserted on the battlefield, they just had another lackey fill in the ranks.
- scottpigeon, on 12/13/2007, -1/+29Not everyone who applies for conscientious objector status is approved.
- vault, on 12/13/2007, -50/+75Only on digg is deserting your unit considered a good thing.
- WestonP, on 12/13/2007, -10/+51Pretty much every war-criminal tries to make the excuse that he was "just following orders", and we refuse to accept that as an excuse, and we say that he should have done the right thing and ended his involvement in it. But when someone actually does that, we bitch and moan about how they're supposed to just blindly follow orders. You can't have it both ways. Either way, our soldiers are getting screwed over, and our soldiers are the ones putting their lives on the line. Damn this evil administration for putting them in that situation.
- Fizban140, on 12/13/2007, -10/+2You are wrong, "that he should have done the right thing and ended his involvement in it. But when someone actually does that, we bitch and moan about how they're supposed to just blindly follow orders." They can do the right thing without leaving the military and making their unit suffer.
- Sajentine, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3*****
- edwartica, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1I question the sanity of anyone who would say this.
- Fizban140, on 12/13/2007, -10/+2You are wrong, "that he should have done the right thing and ended his involvement in it. But when someone actually does that, we bitch and moan about how they're supposed to just blindly follow orders." They can do the right thing without leaving the military and making their unit suffer.
- phnx0221, on 12/13/2007, -8/+13It shows that you have control over your own life, that you are not willing to fight and die for something that you not only don't believe in, but know that it isn't even in the best interest of saving people's lives to continue fighting.
"They have always taught and trained you to believe it to be your patriotic duty to go to war and to have yourselves slaughtered at their command. But in all the history of the world you, the people, have never had a voice in declaring war, and strange as it certainly appears, no war by any nation in any age has ever been declared by the people.
And here let me emphasize the fact—and it cannot be repeated too often—that the working class who fight all the battles, the working class who make the supreme sacrifices, the working class who freely shed their blood and furnish the corpses, have never yet had a voice in either declaring war or making peace. It is the ruling class that invariably does both. They alone declare war and they alone make peace." - Eugene Debs - Stettenbauer, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3No ,not only in digg can you think for yourself.
- SpacePoet, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1Any conscious human being can make a decision based on what they witness. This war is deemed illegal in many eyes due to the fact we were lied into it.
- tuqqer, on 12/13/2007, -2/+1mmm, there might be a couple other places on earth where refusing to pick up a weapon and kill people would be considered a good thing.
If you can't think of any, my suggestion would be to get out and travel more. Read more, too.
- WestonP, on 12/13/2007, -10/+51Pretty much every war-criminal tries to make the excuse that he was "just following orders", and we refuse to accept that as an excuse, and we say that he should have done the right thing and ended his involvement in it. But when someone actually does that, we bitch and moan about how they're supposed to just blindly follow orders. You can't have it both ways. Either way, our soldiers are getting screwed over, and our soldiers are the ones putting their lives on the line. Damn this evil administration for putting them in that situation.
- MrESaulved, on 12/13/2007, -22/+39Military service does not require you to leave your humanity and good sense at the barracks door.
These young people most likely understand the legal consequences of desertion, the risk of jail terms, the loss of respect and disenfranchisement from the system they wish to preserve, so why do they still leave their units?
They are refusing to continue to participate in an unethical, illegal and inhuman campaign of senseless murder, all for Oil and the propping up of those who control Oil, who benefit from the riches of Oil. They refuse to commit acts of barbarism and murder, to keep what good sense they have left, so they can live with themselves for the rest of their lives. The Armed Services of the USA are breaking and these are just some of the shards. Listen carefully to what they are saying.- Apokalyps2547, on 12/13/2007, -1/+5In this war?
Yeah, it typically does. - noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -10/+3These people left because they were not cut out for the military, each and every one of them spelled it out clear as day. They were not asked to do anything sinister, they weren't asked to commit murder, they were asked to perform their duty as the war dictated and they could not handle that. The one guy said he didn't want to be put in the position where he could be ambushed and might actually have to kill someone; why in gods name was the man ever considered fit for service?
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -0/+9"They were not asked to do anything sinister, they weren't asked to commit murder"
How can you seriously believe that?- milomilomilo, on 12/13/2007, -4/+2@lydecker
"They were not asked to do anything sinister, they weren't asked to commit murder, they were asked to perform their duty as the war dictated and they could not handle that"
and this duty they were asked to do was in fact murder.....
unless you thought war was a giant pillow fight.
- milomilomilo, on 12/13/2007, -4/+2@lydecker
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -0/+9"They were not asked to do anything sinister, they weren't asked to commit murder"
- Yokohamalion, on 12/13/2007, -6/+2Even IF this war was about oil and just oil these soldiers desertions are treasonous. Oil is a strategic resource, as important to the nation as food or water. You check your politics at the door. You can't pick and choose to serve based on your political views of each conflict. You can refuse to commit an illegal act but if the war has been sanctioned by congress you have no recourse, it is legal.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -1/+5Oil MIGHT be a strategic resource, thats not what is in question here!
What is, is the constant lies and misdirection of the bastards in power, the ones who are never supposed to put the troops in harms way, the guys who should stand up as a shining beacon to the rest of the world about why the US is a nation to be admired and emulated.,
These bastards have forfeited their right to be blindly followed and some of the more intelligent military personnel (as few of them that do exist) have had enough and are doing the only thing they can in order to not kill the innocent civilians of thje country they illegally invaded under false pretenses! - PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -1/+4How much oil could we have purchased if we didn't spend all that money invading Iraq? How much cheaper could it be if we didn't meddle with foreign governments? I'm guessing it would be alot cheaper...
If you want oil, try Texas. If you dig deep enough, anywhere in the world, you're likely to find oil. - Yokohamalion, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1You can't illegally invade a country, you can't legally invade a country. You can just be liked or disliked for doing so. If your demo elected country and therefore a plurality of your citizens vote for military action it is legal. Unless some bigger and badder says its not. In international relations might makes right. As for oil if the Demos let drilling in Alaska Americans wouldnt need to protect foreign reserves.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -1/+5Oil MIGHT be a strategic resource, thats not what is in question here!
- Apokalyps2547, on 12/13/2007, -1/+5In this war?
- ordig, on 12/13/2007, -34/+36these guys have balls of steel.
- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -18/+3They have vaginas of pudding.
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -10/+5No they don't and they tell you that themselves.
- sendbillmoney, on 12/13/2007, -1/+2Nope...balls of steel would be looking their commanders in the eye and saying "I refuse this order on principle, and stand ready to pay the price. Court martial me." Running away is not ballsy.
- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1now, THAT makes a man.
- snakevenom52, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum...and I'm all out of gum.
- skyfire1, on 12/14/2007, -0/+2OMG! There's a war coming up! Let's desert, we'll be heroes.
/deserter
- robbyjo, on 12/13/2007, -12/+6Check the title: "Time Mulitmedia". Good work, Time! :D
- empirefalling, on 12/13/2007, -32/+10The United States Military must be disbanded immediately.
- loudmouth11, on 12/13/2007, -9/+7You are possibly the least smart person i have ever encountered
- thejokker, on 12/13/2007, -10/+8you have got to be out of your mind. Because these jokers didnt like dealing with war or the injuries caused by it we should forfeit the ability to have a military?
War is hell. No really, its not just a cool expression, war actually sucks. Injuries suck, death sucks. But the American people have deemed it necessary to go and fight. Thats what the military does.
--Semper Fi, active duty deploying soon- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -1/+10---"But the American people have deemed it necessary to go and fight."
when did that happen?- darkecho, on 12/13/2007, -3/+4when we first went in, and the news only aired some bull ***** and nothing that was positive.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -1/+10---"But the American people have deemed it necessary to go and fight."
- Me1000, on 12/13/2007, -3/+3[/sarcasm]
- lolinyerface, on 12/13/2007, -0/+0No No No! You got it all wrong! You are supposed to say, "The United States Military is irrelevant." Just like everything else you respond about.
Although, "Another irrelevant "holiday"." and films being, "irrelevant" are probably my favorite.
- Hoxie, on 12/13/2007, -21/+70The united states army is a voluntary military force. I am as anti-war as the rest of you guys, but why the hell would you sign up for the army if you are not willing to follow your command. It is not their responsibility as enlisted men to choose what they are fighting for. That is for the politicians to decide.
A depressing but true fact- bcat, on 12/13/2007, -2/+6Indeed. That is why I would never, ever enlist in the army. I'm not necessarily opposed to all forms of war, but there's no way in hell I'll go fight whenever and whoever Uncle Sam says to.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -6/+21"but why the hell would you sign up for the army if you are not willing to follow your command"
many sign up with the best of intentions, led by lies of all sorts. recruiters lie. etc.- lsloany, on 12/13/2007, -1/+8Exactly, my friend just signed up for the marines and was told he would not have to go to Iraq, that it was optional. Of course once he got in they told him it was mandatory. I believe it was the recruiter that told him, originally. Why wouldn't they lie, though? The president, whom they look up to lies. Congressmen lie, CIA lies, the whole damn government is lying. So sad. It's hard to believe some people. Makes me kinda glad humanity is coming very close to destroying itself. Many deserve it.
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -4/+4If you're dumb enough to be misled by a recruiter without doing your own research, sorry.
- xptoast, on 12/13/2007, -1/+15To enlist in something you think is true and then to find out it was a lie is why people wish to get out. Our military does a bait and switch on those who sign up for it. It should be if you want to be there. Not a sign up then you are stuck to follow orders that could be extremely wrong. Some have faith in our country and government and then get screwed because they follow it to the point of joining up.
- petrodollar, on 12/13/2007, -4/+13There's some truth to the stereotype that enlisted men are dumber than *****. What kind of idiot thinks a 60k signing bonus is a good deal for a FIVE year stint getting your ass shot at shooting people because they have the misfortune of being brown muslims? The problem is only getting worse now that the Army is actively recruiting ghetto trash. A few months ago there were some recruiters in my neighborhood showing off a lime green Hummer with a kicker box. America: WTF?
- thewhiterabbit, on 12/13/2007, -4/+2Maybe because people want to serve their country? For most people its not about the money.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -2/+3Bull ***** *****!
Everyone who wanted to sign up to support their country has already done so. Those left are doing it only for the money and because they buy the lies of the recruiters when told that they will get an education etc.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -2/+3Bull ***** *****!
- petrodollar, on 12/13/2007, -2/+1Then why is the military now allowing hood rats with gang tats to enlist and run rampant in Iraq? Oh yeah, those guys want to serve their country.
- thewhiterabbit, on 12/13/2007, -4/+2Maybe because people want to serve their country? For most people its not about the money.
- phnx0221, on 12/13/2007, -2/+8Why should something as cherished and unique, as one's own life, be up for command by someone else? If they volunteer for military service, this does not negate the fact that it is, in the end the soldier's life at stake, not the politician's? Just because you signed up for something, doesn't mean that you are cemented to those bonds for the rest of your life.
- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -2/+2In fact, i do believe it does. If your CO is an ass, you can get charged with "Damaging government property" for getting a sunburn or getting an unauthorized tattoo. Don't talk until you have done your research.
- novask, on 12/13/2007, -1/+12I dugg you down. Why? Hear me out. I know people keep saying its voluntary, but the truth is, once stop loss was created all rules were off. It's not fair for anyone who volunteered to serve the military for x amount of time to spend any amount beyond that in the military. I's like buying a car for $20,000 and then, once you payed it off the dealership said hey weren't making enough money, so now you have to pay $50,000 for the car. You can't just say "well its your fault for buying a car".
These people got ***** over big time, both with the hypocrisy of serving in the US military, and the ***** involved in invading Iraq. If they begin deserting, its because they have morals, nothing more. They are not traitors, they are real ***** Americans who still believe America is what it used to be 20+ years ago. - leaknoil, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2Having actually been one of those people that enlisted let me tell you that economic reasons is why a large majority join for. At least in my experience anyway. It wasn't uncommon to hear tales from guy of how they were basically living on the street before they joined or even running from the law.
Now they have these huge crazy cash bonuses they wave in front of guys who could hardly have afforded Burger King the night before. More money then they have ever seen in their life. Its economic coercion. They should have to give all the money back nothing more.- SpacePoet, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1And it is our tax dollars they are using to bribe them.
- whiteyak41, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1Because the recruiters lie and manipulate unsuspecting kids. Besides who hasn't ever seen or heard that something might be good, but in reality it is awful. Thats what military is like, times twenty.
- FireAtWill, on 12/13/2007, -11/+22And just like with the Vietnam conscientious objectors, we Canadians will welcome you! Well, I know some have been turned around lately, but still...the general populace will!
- Yokohamalion, on 12/13/2007, -11/+7Ummmm NO. We don't want you. Stay the ***** away. Canada has enough hippie granola eaters as it is, we don't need yours.
- jeffman12, on 12/13/2007, -4/+2i'm not welcoming any military deserters.
- nocash23, on 12/13/2007, -2/+1actually america has extradition treaties signed with canada for deserters. its not an option anymore. its all part of the pan american union.
- nocash23, on 12/13/2007, -2/+0how the hell do i get "-1" digg for stating a fact!? amazing.
- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -1/+2set you back to null. :D
No country should accept cowards who run from the results of their actions.
- JimmySpaza, on 12/13/2007, -37/+8All of these little boys are yellow cowards who should be incarcerated with hard labor for 10 years at a minimum. They care only for themselves, and it shows. Honestly, let them stay in Canada. Actually, France would have been a more suiting destination.
- xptoast, on 12/13/2007, -2/+7I hope you you see the fate you properly need to show you that you are a fool. Sad but you probably cant understand the common sense I just said. Have fun. Try to be a little less harsh. How bout you go to the front lines. We need more cannon fodder. Its a tough thing to decide between squeezing more tax dollars out of you or making you a throw away military combatant.
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -2/+5Unless you've seen war perhaps you should really reconsider your comments.
If you have seen war, you're still wrong, but a have a sliver of respect for your point of view. - banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -3/+9So jimmy, have YOU signed up recently??
- JimmySpaza, on 12/14/2007, -3/+0Yes, been there, done that. Have YOU?!?
- JimmySpaza, on 12/15/2007, -1/+0So, banmaster, I guess you have NOT...although you talk like you know what time it is.
- mllawso, on 12/13/2007, -3/+8You're a coward as well as a hypocrite.
Tell you what I'll support what ever you say if you go and enlist in either the army or the marines within a week.- JimmySpaza, on 12/14/2007, -3/+0Already been there and done that. Have YOU?!?
- JimmySpaza, on 12/15/2007, -1/+0Well, milawso, have YOU? Yes or no. Have YOU ever served?
- 68024, on 12/13/2007, -1/+8Gee I wonder what happened to your previous account!
- JimmySpaza, on 12/14/2007, -3/+0The libs who run Digg got rid of that account and wouldn't tell anyone why...probably because I wouldn't parrot their leftwing stances.
- crestfall, on 12/13/2007, -0/+6This rhetoric come from fear of logical, honest thought. A knee-jerk reaction.
- Dukeye, on 12/13/2007, -10/+46Godwin's Law alert!
If voluntary soldiers have a moral obligation to always follow orders, should a conscientious Nazi have continued exterminating Jews? Deride the comparison, but this is essentially what many are saying (follow orders no matter what - you signed up!). If you were in that position, would you guard a concentration camp? Drop a nuke on a civilian city (Hiro/Naga)? Shoot up an entire Iraqi family because the car didn't stop for the checkpoint? I realize that things aren't so black and white while fighting a war, but could you do those things...and keep doing them?- lsatkins, on 12/13/2007, -3/+10Actually you can not follow an order if it is unlawful. It's only lawful orders that you can't disobey.
- petrodollar, on 12/13/2007, -5/+9There's no shortage of stories of innocent Iraqi civilians being beaten, raped and murdered by US troops. I'm gonna give these guys the benefit of the doubt.
- xptoast, on 12/13/2007, -1/+6Would not following an order be illegal even if the order is legal or not? Whos laws?
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -8/+3Thank you it is sad how many people here flat out ignore the fact that these people are not required to follow illegal orders. In fact these particular people were never asked to follow illegal orders they simply didn't have what it tales to be a soldier.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -3/+6Illegal orders, like, say, invading a foreign country under false pretenses without UN approval?.....
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2UN Approval? When exactly was the UN the legal authority in the US?
- rogersj3, on 12/13/2007, -2/+4The UN has never had the ability to authorize a war by any member country; what the UN says matters only so far as a government cares to listen to it. The UN is a political arena, not a world government.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -3/+6Illegal orders, like, say, invading a foreign country under false pretenses without UN approval?.....
- norcalscan, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1What the hell law do you follow? You're in/over a whole 'nother country. I am proud of the soldiers over there. Imagine killing a civilian, truly scared for your comrades lives thinking he was armed, only to find out the Propaganda Wagon just tapped your shoulder and you are now under court martial. When is it doing your job/orders and when is it murder? No officer, my tank was going 50. That speed limit says 45, I was only going 5 over.
- lsatkins, on 12/13/2007, -3/+10Actually you can not follow an order if it is unlawful. It's only lawful orders that you can't disobey.
- fr0mundacheese, on 12/13/2007, -7/+18As Misguided these guys claim to be. They're in for a hard time in the civilian world. Desertion is a Felony, they'll now be viewed as Ex-Cons.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -2/+151. it's not a felony. desertion is a military crime and doesn't fall under a civilian category of felony.
2. I have had absolutely no troubles in the civilian world and have no known restrictions whatsoever.
3. I am in no way viewed by anyone as an ex-con- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -3/+5The UCMJ holds over civilian court in such matters, and it could be punishable by life in prison or execution depending on the situation. Minimum is a nice long wait, sitting in the hole.
- thewhiterabbit, on 12/13/2007, -1/+4It is also punishable by death, but that hasn't happened for hundreds of years. Desertion is no joke.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -5/+4"minimum is a nice long wait sitting in a hole"
really? how do you know this? the same people that told you how great the pay was?
know what my punishment was?
5 weeks on base with more liberties than i had when i was enlisted. PAID
ability to file tax return, when before i would have been happy to stay missing.
backpay for my time missing.
all in all, my "crime" paid me $6k
despite everyone in chain of command insisting desertion would net me a life in jail, i left anyway. Thats how much people want to be out of the military, willing to risk life in jail.
even though that obviously isnt the case... more lies from a government agency.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -4/+1well drborgata you are a coward! I served 10 years both enlisted and as an officer, I was in the reserves the whole time. I would have gone had I been called. They say i am too old now. Had you deserted on the battle field, I would have shot you myself.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -0/+3another blanket statement from someone who has no idea of anything transpired.., youd make a good soldier...er...wait...
so you were in the reserves eh? whats that a weekend a month and 30 days in the summer? got to keep your wife, your kids nearby, a house a job, a life outside the military AND never went to war?
how dare you judge those kids.
i don't care if you judge me, i'm PROUD that i left, i wear your hatred as a badge of honor. - leaknoil, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2a) None of these people deserted on the battlefield.
b)Ten years of non-combat, non-active duty reserve duty give you no basis to say what you would or would not have done if your life was at risk or you had been sent overseas for the 3rd tour in a row.
c)If you feel so strongly about it you can still re-enlist. You served in peacetime. Not in war. If you believe this war is just go fight. Stop talking about it. Age is up in the 40's now.
I served 7 years. 4 of them active and all in a infantry mos. I never had to shoot someone or be shot at. I wouldn't dare call someone a coward that had when I haven't.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -0/+3another blanket statement from someone who has no idea of anything transpired.., youd make a good soldier...er...wait...
- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -3/+5The UCMJ holds over civilian court in such matters, and it could be punishable by life in prison or execution depending on the situation. Minimum is a nice long wait, sitting in the hole.
- desertDenizen, on 12/13/2007, -0/+4Yet able to sleep at night.
- rmxz, on 12/13/2007, -0/+3I'd have no problem hiring someone with ethics and integrity.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -2/+151. it's not a felony. desertion is a military crime and doesn't fall under a civilian category of felony.
- LimeParrot, on 12/13/2007, -22/+38It's only fair. The US Government deserted them first.
- xGORDOx, on 12/13/2007, -9/+2Thats the ***** lamest thing I have ever read.
"The US Government deserted them first"?
WTF?- MrESaulved, on 12/13/2007, -0/+8"Stop loss", extended deployments, lack of war materiels, unlawful orders, slashing of VA benefits including medical care, not to mention the patently proved false premise of why they are engaged on foreign soil to begin with.
So yes, I agree, "WTF" indeed.
- MrESaulved, on 12/13/2007, -0/+8"Stop loss", extended deployments, lack of war materiels, unlawful orders, slashing of VA benefits including medical care, not to mention the patently proved false premise of why they are engaged on foreign soil to begin with.
- xGORDOx, on 12/13/2007, -9/+2Thats the ***** lamest thing I have ever read.
- naterpoke, on 12/13/2007, -27/+1get a ***** life OTHER than digg pizzler u ugly skank
- lilwagon, on 12/13/2007, -26/+16weak photos. weaker photo editing.
shameful that Nosh is a "professional" photographer- eroel462, on 12/13/2007, -0/+3you have no idea how beautiful those photographs were. It doesn't have to be shiny and perfect to get an emotion across. Sometimes the subject is more important than the photograph.
- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -35/+22Hopeless cowards with delusions of a perfect world. I joined my countries military to defend freedom and democracy around the world. However disgraceful, im glad that people like this leave. i would hate to have to serve next to someone who isnt capable of doing exactly as ordered when the time comes, someone who isnt willing to give his life so that his familly may live in peace and safety.
I say again, pitiful, disgraceful cowards.- txinfo, on 12/13/2007, -9/+20You are the hopeless coward. Blindly following what the radical fascist right-wing nutjobs in this country do. Why don't you think for yourself and truly look at what is happening. These men are heroes who are standing up for what they believe is right. They, along with the rest of the world, were lied to and deceived.
- Fizban140, on 12/13/2007, -14/+5They are not heroes, they are cowards who deserted their friends and comrades. They can stand up for what they believe in but this is almost the worst possible way of doing it.
- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -12/+3For one, i wasnt lied to or deceived in any way.
Two, im not a "right-wing nut job". i seem to be one of the few people with the spine to stand up for what i beleive in rather than sit on the internet all day and complain about *****. I joined the military to serve my countries interest, whatever they may be.- Enasni1212, on 12/13/2007, -1/+11"Whatever they may be," indeed.
In this case, your country's interest is in making the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.- Fizban140, on 12/13/2007, -4/+2Actually if the poor want to get rich they can try, but most don't. Seriously, have you lived around any poor areas?
- Enasni1212, on 12/13/2007, -1/+11"Whatever they may be," indeed.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -3/+1No txinfo, what service did you serve in. Then STFU. They are lilly livered cowards and they deserve to be shot and executed. No Excuse. You dont fight a war you want you fight the war you are given. Ali Akbar you MF.
- petrodollar, on 12/13/2007, -2/+11When are you enlisting?
- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -3/+3Did that one a long time ago, or so it seems. ;)
- petrodollar, on 12/13/2007, -1/+8readingcompwned. Still, I don't see how fighting in Iraq is doing a goddamn thing to protect freedom and democracy. Maybe you can explain.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -2/+1How about you! I did a long time ago.
- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -3/+3Did that one a long time ago, or so it seems. ;)
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -4/+5you said the proper mouthful. why would anyone want someone to serve beside them who didn't want to be there?
- bcat, on 12/13/2007, -3/+9And I say that you are an idiot. (What, you don't like that? Well, maybe you should think twice before you call soldiers "pitiful, disgraceful cowards" just because they have a sense of right and wrong.)
- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -6/+1I have a sense of right and wrong, a possibly more developed one than yourself. Im not a christian and i dont believe in god. i merely do what is best for my country and my family.
and im rather amused that you find your own amusement in insulting those who serve with honor from behind your desk, possibly not doing anything to defend your own beliefs other than incessant internet complaining.
touche, sir.- lsloany, on 12/13/2007, -1/+8Your morals are misguided. I would love to know how fighting in Iraq is helping your country let alone your family. I hope you don't lose your life in what our government is calling "defending our country" for when your family mourn, they will have to question why.
- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1My family deals with that fact every day. My whole family has a very honorable history of service and the fact that i may be killed (though not likely with my job) is accepted and in fact looked upon as courage. If i was afraid of dying, ir my family had any kind of qualms with the war, then neither i nor my father would have volunteered. Its that simple. We VOLUNTEERED, we weren't forced. The only thing i see when i see a deserter is a coward who has no sense of honor or courage.
- lsloany, on 12/13/2007, -1/+8Your morals are misguided. I would love to know how fighting in Iraq is helping your country let alone your family. I hope you don't lose your life in what our government is calling "defending our country" for when your family mourn, they will have to question why.
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3You are confusing flat cowardice for a sense of right and wrong, they were not asked to do anything wrong, they simply didn't like war. A soldier is obligated to disobey an illegal order and they can do that without running.
- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -6/+1I have a sense of right and wrong, a possibly more developed one than yourself. Im not a christian and i dont believe in god. i merely do what is best for my country and my family.
- thewhiterabbit, on 12/13/2007, -4/+2Totally agree with you nobhdy
- SaperKain, on 12/13/2007, -2/+2Hello sir.
Thank you for your service.
I would like to know when did u enlist and what unit u are part of? Which part of Iraq your unit was assigned to? Just making sure, you are not some couch warrior. Thanks.- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1I actually serve with our Navy's Submarine force. Watchers of the deep, as it were. My own father serves in the 101st airborne (Currahee Cav!) and has been to Baghdad. He is hoping to go to Afghanistan soon.
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3"I joined my countries military to defend freedom and democracy around the world."
And the dreadful grammar proves that you're exactly the kind of brain dead moron with no education who would willingly follow any orders no matter how illegal or immoral they were. GW Bush loves 'patriots' like you!- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1My "dreadful grammar" has little to do with the concept of "brainwashing", as you liberal asses seem to throw around. I dont fight for my government, i fight for my country.
- txinfo, on 12/13/2007, -9/+20You are the hopeless coward. Blindly following what the radical fascist right-wing nutjobs in this country do. Why don't you think for yourself and truly look at what is happening. These men are heroes who are standing up for what they believe is right. They, along with the rest of the world, were lied to and deceived.
- socoolisme, on 12/13/2007, -16/+5Any one who can't be sadistic for there country is a pussy.
- txinfo, on 12/13/2007, -25/+18These are the true heroes of this war. These are the people who are truly defending freedom. Freedom from tyranny of from our own government. Freedom from oppression from our own government. Freedom.
- ukusman, on 12/13/2007, -5/+0Would you prefer we had the "freedom" of the former Iraqi government? Or perhaps the "freedom" of the Iranian government?
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -1/+2It's a good thing that's not a real option for the US.
- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -5/+0Or perhaps we should pull out and let those who would harm us take over a country with little means to defend itself. We are the freest country on this planet. why dont you go live in china for awhile. talk about freedom then. maybe you wouldnt take all this country offers for granted.
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3Being the closest to freedom isn't good enough. True freedom is.
- Groovemaster, on 12/13/2007, -0/+3"We are the freest country on this planet"
That was a good one. Thanks for the laugh.
- phnx0221, on 12/13/2007, -0/+4This is an entirely illogical argument you are making, resulting only in distracting from the issue txinfo was attempting to make. We must be able to have the power to dictate our own lives, especially when death is at stake, ours or another's.
-edit, this is a reply to ukusman. - drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2i'm a deserter. i'm no hero. just a person who made a mistake in joining to begin with and corrected his mistake.
The troops fighting may be heroes, they could be fighting a bs war... i can't really say for sure, but i know you're wrong to refer to the deserters as heroes when there are people literally fighting to the death over what they believe in away from their loved ones and everything so many people take for granted. they suffer...for you to call a deserter a hero, thats *****.
coming from a deserter, and i call your statement a load of *****.- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1Though i wont commend you for your actions (why didnt you simply wait for an honorable discharge?) i will say that you are correct. Fighting and risking ones life for his beliefs, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, is honorable.
- drborgata, on 12/14/2007, -0/+0the only way to wait for an honorable discharge is to fulfill your term. The military wasn't right for me at the time, no way would i have stayed for years.
- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1Though i wont commend you for your actions (why didnt you simply wait for an honorable discharge?) i will say that you are correct. Fighting and risking ones life for his beliefs, regardless of whether they are right or wrong, is honorable.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -3/+1If you feel oppressed, goto Cuba, see how oppressed you are there.
- ukusman, on 12/13/2007, -5/+0Would you prefer we had the "freedom" of the former Iraqi government? Or perhaps the "freedom" of the Iranian government?
- petrodollar, on 12/13/2007, -13/+21Two of my best friends are field-grade Army officers and they are filled with seething hatred for the war and the Bush administration. Neocon losers who post on the internet about how they support the war need to enlist or STFU.
- effects, on 12/13/2007, -6/+0they may be officers who hate the war, but have they deserted the post they are committed to serve?
- sendbillmoney, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1If they're so filled with seething hatred for the war and the administration that they're letting you know, why aren't they resigning their commissions?
- leaknoil, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5Great idea ! lets have all the officers that don't agree with the current administration quit in protest leaving only those officers that think everything during the last 7 years has been peachy left to run the show. What could possibly go wrong ?!?
- leaknoil, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5Great idea ! lets have all the officers that don't agree with the current administration quit in protest leaving only those officers that think everything during the last 7 years has been peachy left to run the show. What could possibly go wrong ?!?
- aaron5863, on 12/13/2007, -14/+21Support the troops. Support the troops.
Everyone says it. People buy stickers for their oil guzzling cars that proclaim it. No one does it. Support our troops by holding the people in leadership roles responsible.
IMPEACH - tangomac, on 12/13/2007, -17/+12Not welcome in my foxhole
- T8erT0T, on 12/13/2007, -2/+10Yeah, cause you're really taking shrapnel in the trenches with your mmorpg clan on your pewter. Please, spare us.
- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -21/+15These people are cowards and criminals and should be put to trial with the harshest of consequences. I serve my countries navy, controlling weapons that would incite WWIII. though i mentally question every order, there is absolutely no room for hesitance or disobedience. I defend freedom and democracy around the world and i would readily die at a word to ensure that my family sleeps safe at night. The thought that people like this exist is sickening, and i am honestly relieved to know that they left. i would cringe to have to work beside these people.
Like JimmySpazza said, they should have run to france.- bcat, on 12/13/2007, -2/+15"The thought that people like this exist is sickening, and i am honestly relieved to know that they left." Well, the thought that people like you exist sickens me. It's all in your perspective, isn't it?
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -4/+3You know that nobhdy could be asked at any given moment to defend your sorry ass by ending thousands of lives in one fell swoop if asked. If China decided to be ambitious tommorow and your hometown was on the list you would owe your life to people like him. People like you truly sicken me.
For the rest of Digg, here is a quote from your hero Orwell, "People sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men and women stand ready to do violence on their behalf."- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -1/+2Thats why the people should be armed and ready to _defend_ themselves from attack. Force is inevitable. Whether such force is used in a moral way depends a great deal on whether or not the mechanism, in most circumstances that being the military, is also supported through moral means.
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1In times past, yes that is an excellent suggestion. However in modern times when a nation can literally end the world on a whim, sitting back and waiting for them to come to you is not always a brilliant plan.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1noahhoward is right on the money. Lilly livered idiots sit on their ass's while brave men fight and die on their behalf. Anyone who believes there have been illegal orders in this war are misguided. There have been some bad apples as soldiers, but the american fighting man is overtly a good person, and tries to help the citizens of that country. Anyone who doesnt believe that doesnt deserve to live in this country. Try going to Cuba, or lets protest in Russia and see what happens.
- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -1/+2Thats why the people should be armed and ready to _defend_ themselves from attack. Force is inevitable. Whether such force is used in a moral way depends a great deal on whether or not the mechanism, in most circumstances that being the military, is also supported through moral means.
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -4/+3You know that nobhdy could be asked at any given moment to defend your sorry ass by ending thousands of lives in one fell swoop if asked. If China decided to be ambitious tommorow and your hometown was on the list you would owe your life to people like him. People like you truly sicken me.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -1/+14"These people are cowards"
standing up for what they believe in, despite jailing looming over their heads, not to mention your disapproval... thats cowardice?
people use the term coward far too loosely and incorrectly.- TheCasablancan, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1I'm conflicted by this whole situation. Coming from a military family, I was taught that honor, loyalty, and justice are the highest responsibilities of a military officer. While I personally disagree with this war, and choose not to enlist, these fellows made a commitment to not only their country, but themselves and the soldiers they served with. I can't help but be concerned about the crew that had to go on patrol 1 man short. It is good that they are honest, and follow what they believe, but they have all increased the probability of another soldier's death, and are thusly selfish.
It's ***** disconcerting. I hope that they are able to get on with their lives well enough...but I also hope that no one in their squad took a sniper round just below the helmet line because one of them wasn't there.- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3like i said to someone else, these guys didnt abandon their team while rounds were going off at their skulls... they were likely on leave in the states and just didnt return... why would you think the military wouldn't sub in someone in their place who was patrolling a bunk bed here somewhere instead of leaving a war battalion a man short?
also, an officer is not an enlisted man.
- drborgata, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3like i said to someone else, these guys didnt abandon their team while rounds were going off at their skulls... they were likely on leave in the states and just didnt return... why would you think the military wouldn't sub in someone in their place who was patrolling a bunk bed here somewhere instead of leaving a war battalion a man short?
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1encouraging desertion is treason, goto cuba MF or some other country.
- TheCasablancan, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1I'm conflicted by this whole situation. Coming from a military family, I was taught that honor, loyalty, and justice are the highest responsibilities of a military officer. While I personally disagree with this war, and choose not to enlist, these fellows made a commitment to not only their country, but themselves and the soldiers they served with. I can't help but be concerned about the crew that had to go on patrol 1 man short. It is good that they are honest, and follow what they believe, but they have all increased the probability of another soldier's death, and are thusly selfish.
- iHateDell, on 12/13/2007, -1/+7Cowards? See a lot of up close fighting on the navy ship did ya?
Strap on a tan uniform or a green uniform and then you can talk.- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -9/+1Its true. Aside from my own father serving honorably and courageously in the 101st airborne, i have little perspective, and im sorry for making uneducated statements.
*****.
When have you even got off your ass? sure, i may know very little about you, but i can honestly say you do much less to better the lives of americans than i do.- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -2/+6"i can honestly say you do much less to better the lives of Americans than i do."
You can't really be that ignorant, can you? HOW ON EARTH could you know that? - wramos, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1nobhdy, Sir you are great american! Isnt it funny how all these smart folks think these cowards are brave? They dont know the meaning of brave. They dont know the meaning of sacrifice. Note that Hienliens work "Starship Troopers" In order to be a citizen you had to serve in the military. Hmmmm He was a smart man.
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -2/+6"i can honestly say you do much less to better the lives of Americans than i do."
- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -9/+1Its true. Aside from my own father serving honorably and courageously in the 101st airborne, i have little perspective, and im sorry for making uneducated statements.
- phnx0221, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5If you serve without actively questioning your orders, or the reasons you have to push a button that will unleash a brutal hell in a distance, then that is a choice that you are making. You are making a choice to voluntarily relinquish your options, and possibly your life. That does not mean, that you, or anyone else, inherently contains a right to make that choice for someone else.
- mllawso, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1Oh man, you served in the Navy. With your bed, warm meals, showers, and not getting shot at every day, you're in the perfect position to call these guys cowards.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -2/+1He may have served in the navy, does anyone remember a ship in the gulf of yemen that had a hole in the side of the ship and many sailors were killed. I say he is a brave man. I have been on a military vessel, and they are not cruise ships, there are all sorts of hazzards on board. No one should critique anyones service, including Bush.
- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1Think you know, do you? When was the last time you sat for six months 500 feet under the polar ice cap waiting to be hit by a torpedo at any second? And showers? Maybe a few times a week...maybe. And don't get me started on the ridiculous hours. 4 hours of sleep per night for a month at a time getting in your rack and feeling the heat from the guy who just got out because there aren't enough beds.
However, I WILL comment on the food. Navy's got the hookup. What can i say?
- eroel462, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2someones been a little brainwashed. Come on, all i hear is "defending democracy" and "protecting families" from any pro-military person. You all say the same things because boot camp has brainwashed it into you.
- nobhdy, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1You're kidding, right? Have you been to navy boot camp? its a complete joke. We did alot of PT, and that was about it. They taught us naval history and how to basically run a ship. GReat job with the research there, bub.
- bcat, on 12/13/2007, -2/+15"The thought that people like this exist is sickening, and i am honestly relieved to know that they left." Well, the thought that people like you exist sickens me. It's all in your perspective, isn't it?
- fastang, on 12/13/2007, -19/+19***** these people. You people praise them, but if ALL of us (military) deserted think of what would happen.
- GuitaristTom, on 12/13/2007, -5/+2I guess some people must think, man I wish I was in a military where they are treated with decency and honor. Like, what do we get in the American Military, I mean seriously? A college education possibly, the whole rest of your life paved for you. Pssh. Now those Iraqi, Palestinian, Chinese, Iranian, Russian, and even Japanese militaries... they know where its at.
- pintomp3, on 12/13/2007, -4/+19there would be no one to go overseas and kill brown people? canada would invade us? haliburton stocks would fall?
- MoBillyAla, on 12/13/2007, -6/+0Hey idiot, the US military is more evenly racially/ethically diverse than ANY civilian workforce. So therefore "kill brown people" shows your lack of knowledge and therefore no one should take you seriously. These deserters raised their hand signed a contract, and then backed out and run and hide. They are truly cowards and need to take RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. They disagree with the military, then get out HONORABLY when your contract that you signed is finished. You don't get the choice to end it when you want. If your not US military then STFU, go live in one of these f'cked up countries where women can't vote, you got some guerilla war monger as a dictator, how about North Korea,Iran, Afganistan,Columbia....I'm sure they will give you a better life than the U.S. of A...my 2 cents... and yes I'm a 12 year active duty veteran numerous deployments...
- pintomp3, on 12/13/2007, -0/+5the military has large numbers of blacks and latinos because it actively recruits in poor communities and dangles college tuition as an incentive to go fight for corporate profit. the irony of you saying other countries leader "war mongers" seems to elude you. you may have had the countries best interests at heart when you signed up, but the countries leaders do not. over 3000 of your fellow soldiers have died in a needless war, where is your outrage over that?
- GuitaristTom, on 12/13/2007, -3/+1why is it that when we help the poor by putting them through college people still complain... god, let's just bitch about everything america does
- MoBillyAla, on 12/13/2007, -6/+0Hey idiot, the US military is more evenly racially/ethically diverse than ANY civilian workforce. So therefore "kill brown people" shows your lack of knowledge and therefore no one should take you seriously. These deserters raised their hand signed a contract, and then backed out and run and hide. They are truly cowards and need to take RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. They disagree with the military, then get out HONORABLY when your contract that you signed is finished. You don't get the choice to end it when you want. If your not US military then STFU, go live in one of these f'cked up countries where women can't vote, you got some guerilla war monger as a dictator, how about North Korea,Iran, Afganistan,Columbia....I'm sure they will give you a better life than the U.S. of A...my 2 cents... and yes I'm a 12 year active duty veteran numerous deployments...
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -2/+16If all of you in the military deserted wars because of being lied to, people would only fight for causes that were just causes. That's noble.
- lsloany, on 12/13/2007, -1/+6We could stop wasting money on attacking countries and instead worry about more prominent problems in our OWN nation. The attackers of 9/11/01 used our own airplanes to attack us, our defense was to bulk up airport security, it has since worked. Our attacking of Iraq has done nothing to prevent more attacks and may have very well enlisted many more "terrorist" into the reins, many more than we have killed or could ever kill. What Saddam had done was wrong but what George Bush Jr. is doing is also so wrong.
- GuitaristTom, on 12/13/2007, -3/+1"Our attacking of Iraq has done nothing to prevent more attacks"
wow so you have a parallel universe in which we didnt attack Iraq. Because thats the only way you would know what would have happened if we didnt attack them. So either shut-up, or show me your universe.- lsloany, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1That was personal opinion, I could just as easily say "show me it has." In which case you would have to prove that bulking up our airport security hasn't stopped further attacks but attacking Iraq has (or a mixture of both.) I could however show you the proof that "terrorist activity" has increased since our invasion of Iraq. But, for sake of time, that will have to wait for another day. Sorry I didn't shut up or show you my universe. You know what it didn't take so much time here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/53750 ... , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War , http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A746 ... There's my proof, about as much as our government gave us on reasons to invade Iraq. lolz.
- SpacePoet, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1"our defense was to bulk up airport security, it has since worked."
ha ha ha ha ha, you're joking right? If they wanted to they could probably do it again. The security is a joke.
- GuitaristTom, on 12/13/2007, -3/+1"Our attacking of Iraq has done nothing to prevent more attacks"
- banmaster, on 12/13/2007, -1/+13"if ALL of us (military) deserted think of what would happen."
Peace?? - mriegger, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1Blackwater would get another contract
- batista86, on 12/13/2007, -13/+6Ron Paul
2008 - MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -21/+15***** Cowards. They volunteered to serve and then they turned tail and ran. Disgraceful. Absolutely disgraceful. And TIME is trying to make them look like they have some moral high ground? Pathetic. Deserters are just as bad as traitors. Well, it's the same thing actually.
/Former INFANTRY 11B Light- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -3/+11While I don't like deserters, they do have a moral higher ground. Sticking to their personal morals. They should educate themselves about war beforehand though.
Or are you saying an individual's morals aren't as important as doing what they're told?- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -6/+3In a time of war while enlisted in the armed forces? Sorry, but no. You can protest all you like once you get out. But when you swear an Oath like all enlisted men and women do, you are morally obligated to fulfill that oath. And guess what? That oath doesn't have an expiration date.
I guess a lot of Diggers don't understand what an Oath is.- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -2/+6Or they value the life of an innocent over an oath. This is a harsh lose-lose situation that forces you to pick which of your morals is most important to you.
- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2It's unfortunate that people don't fully understand their oath, considering it makes actions like the Iraq invasion a violation of that oath.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1Agreed and lydecker and Pepperment pig dont understand, if you join the army, you kind of figure when you fire a rifle at someone you are trying to kill them. So why didnt they join the peace corps? They were idiots and cowards thats why. And the action in iraq is legal, and if you dont believe it is, go there and protest on their behalf. ALI AKBAR MF.
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1What you don't understand is that while these people joined to fire their rifles at infidels and defend themselves, they didn't sign up to kill thousands of Iraqi civilians. What justification is there in firing a rifle at an unarmed man, woman, child?
- noahhoward, on 12/13/2007, -3/+5You are missing the fact that these people weren't asked to do anything immoral they were asked to do the job they signed up for. These are people who had no business joining the military in the first place.
- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -6/+3In a time of war while enlisted in the armed forces? Sorry, but no. You can protest all you like once you get out. But when you swear an Oath like all enlisted men and women do, you are morally obligated to fulfill that oath. And guess what? That oath doesn't have an expiration date.
- nobhdy, on 12/13/2007, -10/+0Here, here!
- mllawso, on 12/13/2007, -0/+0Is it just me, or do wramos and nobhdy seem a little... similar.
Case in point:
http://www.digg.com/people/US_Military_Deserters?t ...
vs
http://www.digg.com/people/US_Military_Deserters?t ...
- lydecker, on 12/13/2007, -3/+11While I don't like deserters, they do have a moral higher ground. Sticking to their personal morals. They should educate themselves about war beforehand though.
- Fallout911, on 12/13/2007, -13/+22***** "your unit" if you don't like what's going on you as a human being should have the choice to leave.
All this OMG TEH BRAVE UNITZ is bull *****.
If my unit is part of a war machine that is causing death and despair to many innocent people then "my unit" can go ***** themselves.- xGORDOx, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1Then why did they join in the first place? To make rainbows and raise puppies?
It's the ***** military, the job entails blowing ***** up and killing people, EVERYONE knows that. - wramos, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1Fallout911 is an idiot.
- leaknoil, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2A ton of people join for economic reason. I served 4 years in the army and I'd say easily 3/4 of the people I was stationed with had joined for nothing more then money. Some came from really awful situations. I met more the one that had been more or less homeless before joining. It's the only high risk job you take when you're down and out you're not allowed to leave when you change your mind. It's also why they have been able to avoid a draft.
We really need a draft. That would stop it all quick.
- xGORDOx, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1Then why did they join in the first place? To make rainbows and raise puppies?
- pintomp3, on 12/13/2007, -6/+8i was expecting to see pictures of bush and cheney.
- SpacePoet, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1Yes, two men that have never seen a day of fighting in their lives, even while the Viet Nam war was going on. Do a google search on 'who served' and low and behold, almost every war monger is on the list as never serving a day in their useless lives.
- Apocolypse, on 12/13/2007, -12/+15Having a conscience should not automatically label you a traitor or deserter.
Great way to show the human side of war.- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -12/+4No, it doesn't... but bailing out and running sure as hell does. And this was a great way to show the face of cowards.
- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -1/+9There is greater patriotism to be found in acts of dissent than blind obedience.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1not in the army you idiot.
- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -1/+9There is greater patriotism to be found in acts of dissent than blind obedience.
- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -12/+4No, it doesn't... but bailing out and running sure as hell does. And this was a great way to show the face of cowards.
- skyfire1, on 12/13/2007, -19/+27Buried for glorifying desertion.
- MaceSoul, on 12/13/2007, -20/+22I may not support war in the mid-east, but I know a pussy traitor when I see one.
- dobaman, on 12/13/2007, -1/+12I may not support the US war in the mid-east but I know a chicken-hawk troll when I see one.
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -2/+10WHAT?!? so it's noble for people to get themselves blown up for a war you can't support?
They shouldn't desert even though the war is wrong? I don't follow that logical flow.
Obedience to authority, no matter how stupid/sadistic, I suppose? - rmxz, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1@macesoul: "but I know a pussy traitor when I see one."
All those who are "just following orders"?
- vvaduva, on 12/13/2007, -14/+16Only on digg are these people heroes. Voluntary military...they take the signup bonuses, the education money, and when the time comes they call themselves objectors. They would make good executives or god lawyers, that's for sure.
- mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -4/+6Yeah Time made that video just for digg users, You should go out and talk to people about it. But you already know that's not true,
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -2/+1yes and the people are angry cowards are glorified. Trators should be shot.
- SpacePoet, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1So what is your opinion on the stop loss programs. Do you think it would be an all volunteer if they didn't lie to the soldiers about where they would be serving and for how long? At this point there would be a draft and booshes body would be dangling from a noose on the WH lawn.
- mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -4/+6Yeah Time made that video just for digg users, You should go out and talk to people about it. But you already know that's not true,
- mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -5/+10War is hard all of them have the same feeling i do, and some cant do war; That video showed and reinforced my feelings that the people over there fighting are True American Heroes
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -6/+2Too bad the video was full of people who ran away from the fighting.
- mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -2/+4You never ran when you were scared?You never changed your mind?
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -3/+3After I took an oath to do something and had other people DEPENDING on my to do what I swore I would?
NO! - mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -2/+3Have you tested that statement ?
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -2/+2Yes I have. I actually turned DOWN a commission opportunity in the AF because I didn't think I could do the duty I would swear to do.
Everyone is afraid of something. Heroes push past their fear and do what they swear they would do. Since I didn't think I could do what is required of an officer in the AF, I didn't take the oath.
Have you ever met a hero with an excuse?
Have you ever met a coward without an excuse?- mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3I'm not asking what you turned down. I'm asking have you tested your comment, so no it looks like.
- mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -1/+2'The bottom line is if that's how you feel about it, even though i don't agree i respect your feeling about it,
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -3/+3After I took an oath to do something and had other people DEPENDING on my to do what I swore I would?
- mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -2/+4You never ran when you were scared?You never changed your mind?
- thcobbs, on 12/13/2007, -6/+2Too bad the video was full of people who ran away from the fighting.
- effects, on 12/13/2007, -11/+11no matter what, i hate the war as much as anyone, but you cant just leave your post like that.
thats all i have to say on the matter.- mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -2/+5I agree but that's something they will probably have to deal with and think about for the rest of their lives. I'm sure you noticed they didn't sound like they were overjoyed about what they did.
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -1/+6Yeah, you should honor your commitment to get your limbs blown off and kill babies.
No mind changing ever!- mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -2/+1So you can type your comment,
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1huh? -- clarify?
Sorry maybe I didn't clarify that was meant VERY sarcastically. - mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2I would of gone with " Extremely" and also add that i lost my mind for a second. LoL but that's me.
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1It's Digg -- if you scan through this whole thing, there's likely someone saying that in a similar fashion and seriously meaning it.
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1huh? -- clarify?
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -3/+1userperson, no one was asked to kill any baby's, you are an idiot.
- rmxz, on 12/13/2007, -1/+2Remember "shock and awe" early in the war where apartments and restaurants were hit? Do you think they asked the babys to evacuate first?
- mal1964, on 12/13/2007, -2/+1So you can type your comment,
- rmxz, on 12/13/2007, -1/+2So you agree with the Nuremberg defense of "just following orders"?
- SpacePoet, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1Actually, morally, you can. Ethically, you could be charged with war crimes for following illegal orders, which many of them are doing.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -1/+2spaceport you are an idiot What ***** illegal orders are they doing. If you believe they are following ilegal orders you need to goto another country. He even better remember when the terrorists in russia held a school, what did the russians do? they used nerve gas on both the assailants and the victims! Ali Akba mother *****.
- Fallensun, on 12/13/2007, -7/+9While I do not like the idea of desertion at all and I believe that it's wrong to abandon your team, I think that this video brings up good points about how a lot of our troops are probably feeling. I dugg it because it shows that our soldiers aren't just mindless killing machines. This is one of the reasons that the war in Iraq pisses me off because it places good soldiers who love our country and who are good people into morally compromising and questionable situations which results in actions such as these.
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -1/+5I'm annoyed at the idiocy of the brainwashed sadist, but I can at least understand that.
This "the war is wrong, but you agreed to fight it" business I can't comprehend. - JasonStockman, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1When your moral decisions are conflicting with the well being on people who depend on you with their lives, then it is a tough spot to be in. However, it's not like the soldiers were taken in the night against their will. And while I can't obviously speak on behalf of anyone in the armed forces, I must say that these soldiers at least willingly volunteered to be where they are, and whether they knowingly intended to be doing what they are is another matter of equal importance, but not equal relevance in this discussion. The place for morality isn't in the trenches, but in the voice of the voters who can (and should) oppose the war itself.
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2"The place for morality isn't in the trenches,"
Remind me not to get in a trench with you.
If there are 'morality free' zones what's going to happen there? -- the worst things imaginable.
Don't they use this kind of logic to justify torture?
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2"The place for morality isn't in the trenches,"
- userperson, on 12/13/2007, -1/+5I'm annoyed at the idiocy of the brainwashed sadist, but I can at least understand that.
- captric, on 12/13/2007, -11/+10This is a volunteer military. Every one of those people took an oathe and they deserve whatever punishment thay get. Not even CANADA is taking our cowards anymore!!! That should tell you something right there.
- PhilMoskowitz, on 12/13/2007, -1/+5What? That Canadian federal government is in bed with the US? If that's the best moral argument you can make perhaps you should stop depending on your own judgment and character.
- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1Your oath is not voluntary either.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1O ya someone puts a gun to your head to recite the oath. Give me a break. You deserve to live in a country other than this one. I like this statement we fight weak liberalism with strong communism
- SpacePoet, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1So what is your opinion on the stop loss programs. Do you think it would be an all volunteer if they didn't lie to the soldiers about where they would be serving and for how long? Without stop loss, there would have been a draft. I know that makes you feel all good and cozy that you'll never have to relieve some of these soldiers one day when they have served their tours. Many can not get out even beyond their committed service, they are screwed.
- Sciefer, on 12/13/2007, -9/+11Deserting is betrayal. While I sympathize with their plight and understand the questioning of the war and their place in it the fact is they swore an oath. When you sign up for the military people should carefully consider exactly what they are signing away.
- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3Most do not understand. Some do, and still find these actions immoral. I would serve if I had a high degree of confidence that I would not be given treasonous orders.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1IF you thought that you need to live in another country, you dont love this one and dont have faith in our country so leave.
- lydecker, on 12/14/2007, -0/+1Don't tell anyone they don't love their country.
- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1IF you thought that you need to live in another country, you dont love this one and dont have faith in our country so leave.
- SpacePoet, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1That oath states that you will defend the Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic. When you see that you are no longer able to do this, then they are not betraying anyone by not partaking in their duty.
- PeppermintPig, on 12/13/2007, -1/+3Most do not understand. Some do, and still find these actions immoral. I would serve if I had a high degree of confidence that I would not be given treasonous orders.
- Cyberdactyl, on 12/13/2007, -8/+9What can I say?
They are DESERTERS with an excuse. I mean. . . does anyone NOT have an excuse? - axessterminated, on 12/13/2007, -13/+17I serve my nation's military not in defense of America, but in defense of what America stands for. America stands for freedom and democracy; fighting for you nation simply because it's your country of birth is blind nationalism. Deserting your friends, colleagues, comrades, citizens, and families is not how you fight back against a government you don't believe in. Is it still okay that they deserted if their best friend is now dead because of it? Maybe that best friend was your brother...
There's a reason civilians run the military; if you have a political issue, take it up with your elected civilian leaders. These men and women who have left their service disgust me and should be charged with sedition, if not treason.- MadOgre, on 12/13/2007, -8/+4Exactly!
- PhilMoskowitz, on 12/13/2007, -2/+8So Gunter was a real scumbag because he surrendered instead of backing up Dieter who was attempting to attack an American tank back in ww2. Is that what I can take from your brilliant analogy? Is that your idea of a moral imperative, stick by yer buds?
- urbandistrict, on 12/13/2007, -1/+6"There's a reason civilians run the military; if you have a political issue, take it up with your elected civilian leaders"
In a perfect world you would be absolutely right. However, at this point in time the system is bankrupt. I wonder which political issue would-be defectors should take issue with first? Being that our political leaders are patsys to the lobby and should you by some miracle get through to your civilian politician there is a separation between the civil court system and the UCMJ.
Let's be completely forthright and honest, once enlisted the deck is severely stacked against you. A lot of moral conflicts take place in the hearts and minds of soldiers and you compromise those same morals and values you are told to defend in fear of being insubordinate. So ask yourself who is king, the command structure or our American values? The more truthful answer is what you coined as blind nationalism. - dobaman, on 12/13/2007, -1/+12Wake up and smell 2003-2007 guys. There is a reason the US is hated by almost everyone. It does not stand for anything but corporate profit. Freedom and democracy... please excuse while I laugh my ass off. How naive are you? These guys in Canada have brass balls. To risk prosecution, to risk jail, to leave their families behind. It would have been the easiest decision for them just to follow orders. But they followed their consciences despite the risks.
I would rather have a deserter than a war criminal for a brother.
- urbandistrict, on 12/13/2007, -1/+7The United States of Haliburton does have a nice ring to it....
- lerker, on 12/13/2007, -1/+9Your logic is flawed. You only believe that "America stands for freedom and democracy" because it is your country of birth. It is not universally accepted that America "stands for" these things. Your reason is just as blindly nationalistic as "fighting for you nation simply because it's your country of birth."
- urbandistrict, on 12/13/2007, -0/+6The irony of it all is that is *exactly* why his pen hit the paper. He heard the songs, the flutes, the drums, whispering into his ears for many years, then he picked up the brochure.
The doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other.
- urbandistrict, on 12/13/2007, -0/+6The irony of it all is that is *exactly* why his pen hit the paper. He heard the songs, the flutes, the drums, whispering into his ears for many years, then he picked up the brochure.
- Groovemaster, on 12/13/2007, -1/+4Please provide some current evidence that America stands for freedom and/or democracy.
Just saying it because it gives a you warm fuzzy feeling isn't enough. It actually needs to be true.- wramos, on 12/13/2007, -1/+1IF you dont like this country Cuba has a lot of room, because they are all over here. Or how about Hati.
- kp923, on 12/13/2007, -9/+16So, I'm confused. These assholes didn't think about any of the number of things they mentioned (their religion, their morals, where they wanted to be in life, etc.) BEFORE they signed up for military service? Where the ***** did they think they were going to be sent, a post in Imaginationland?
My little brother went into the service with his best friend about 14 months ago. The friend conveniently decided 2 months before being