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Sect Children Face Another World, but Still No TV
nytimes.com — Because the children, from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or F.L.D.S., have never eaten processed foods, the new shelter mantra is whole grains and fresh vegetables. Because they have never been to public school, the equivalent of home schooling will be established in shelters.
miranda622- 374 diggs
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- MookiBlaylock, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2that's definitely normal
- WordsnCollision, on 04/27/2008, -5/+35Will they be taught the theory of evolution?
- r1y23, on 04/27/2008, -4/+32They have to learn about the color red first
- marx2k, on 04/27/2008, -16/+2They were home schooled, not given massive brain trauma through screwdriver+hammer+nostril. Besides, red is overrated
- ApokalypseNow, on 04/27/2008, -1/+19"They were home schooled, not given massive brain trauma through screwdriver+hammer+nostril."
Dude, have you seen the parents? Have you listened to them? In this case, the brain trauma might be preferable. - jackalsclaw, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giver
good book, he was referencing it in the red comment.
- ApokalypseNow, on 04/27/2008, -1/+19"They were home schooled, not given massive brain trauma through screwdriver+hammer+nostril."
- marx2k, on 04/27/2008, -16/+2They were home schooled, not given massive brain trauma through screwdriver+hammer+nostril. Besides, red is overrated
- r1y23, on 04/27/2008, -4/+32They have to learn about the color red first
- ElAssoWipo, on 04/27/2008, -4/+61OMG. Healthy food and no stupid TV.
That's Unamerican!- marx2k, on 04/27/2008, -5/+4So while they learn about our alien world, we will have to learn about theirs ;)
"So, on your planet you don't have Big Macs and 2Girls1Cup? Woowwwww" - korvan504521, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1yeah, anyway we can get other kids into this?
- marx2k, on 04/27/2008, -5/+4So while they learn about our alien world, we will have to learn about theirs ;)
- blankhorizons, on 04/27/2008, -3/+21“We’re not going to throw them in the middle of the pond in an alien world,”
Yeah, but why not try and ease them out of the one they're already in?- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -1/+5I think thats the idea
- sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -3/+5Personally I agree but I think there are better ways to do it. The easiest first step would be to put the kids with their mothers in a mainstream LDS community. FLDS/LDS still have some cultural and religious similarities that would at least provide a situation where there is some familiarity and continuity that can help them make the transition, slowly. However, I'm not a psychologist, just my 2cents.
- dwninjungleland, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2Since the world you know is the only *real* one, right?
- dansvan, on 04/27/2008, -1/+17No TV? That shouldn't be their first concern.
- nickcozy, on 04/27/2008, -2/+6Is this the 21st century and USA.
- nastronomical, on 04/27/2008, -3/+25I agree no TV. I think a few hours of MTV/BET and they would be scarred for life.
- Disregard, on 04/27/2008, -0/+4"Now children, for your first film, Soul Plane. Wait, come back!"
- jackalsclaw, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1i learn a lot for history and discovery and TLC
- Suricou, on 04/27/2008, -1/+19I have to assume that these children were being raised on the assumption that they would never leave that ranch, because clearly their parents had no intention of preparing them for the outside world. A self-contained, multigenerational community - ran with the intention that people could be born, raised, married, reproduce, grow old and die without leaving the property. That is the only explanation I can see for the deliberate isolation.
In any case, the associated court activity for this fiasco is going slowly. Very, very slowly. Hundreds of lawyers are involved - so many the courthouse has been extended by videoconferencing links to other buildings because it just couldn't hold them all in one place. It's going to be a good few years before the investigation and legal action can conclusively rule either way.- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -10/+8And that is the purpose of this facade. The government wants to quash any and every group of people who choose to separate from society. By the time this is all said and done, the damage will be irreparable and the children will never want to go back.
Self-contained communities represent the ultimate in social rebellion: you're admitting that the government is unnecessary. That is heresy in modern society.- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -4/+12You can romanticise like that or you can look at exactly what was happening to those women and children. Forced rape and marriage has no place any society, especially not the United States of America. People are free to do their own thing sure, but when you start hurting others and especially children then you need to be stopped. Parents do not own their children, they are their stewards.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -10/+4"Forced rape and marriage has no place any society"
Nobody was raped and where do you get the idea that arraigned marriage is somehow morally corrupt?
"People are free to do their own thing sure, but when you start hurting others and especially children then you need to be stopped"
Where is your evidence anyone was hurt? - hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -1/+3http://www.childpro.org/1999-2000%20media/1999-00% ...
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_9065731
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_(book) - twomeyw23334, on 04/27/2008, -4/+4In my personal opinion, these people are a bunch of nuts, but at the same time I think you have to acknowledge what the government has done here is absolutely unacceptable, and I can't believe they haven't been getting more flack.
They raided this place with guns and kidnapped children based on a prank phone call that came from another state. There was literally no fact checking. They just rounded up the boys and the guns and charged into town. Now they continue to keep the children isolated from their parents based on the "possibility that under-age girls at the ranch were forced to marry." I thought in this country you are innocent until proven guilty? It's going to be interesting to see what comes out of this, but if it turns out that there wasn't any evil doings going on in this community the government should have hell to pay.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -10/+4"Forced rape and marriage has no place any society"
- SpykerSpeed, on 04/27/2008, -4/+4DiggNazi2 is exactly right on this. They represented a threat to the government's monopoly on its citizens' lives, so they made up a story to invade their property and break up their families. Then they propagate the story in the media and we just accept it at point-blank value because they're "weird" people who are different than us... and after all, has our government ever lied to us? Of course not!
- codered1322, on 04/27/2008, -2/+6They are pedophiles who were marrying 13 year old girls. There is zero place for that in a modern society.
- HotBaconSauce, on 04/29/2008, -0/+1There are other cultures that engage in 13 year olds marrying older men. I googled it and found the Kurya tribe in Tanzania engages in this. Do you want to 'liberate' these people too?
- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -4/+12You can romanticise like that or you can look at exactly what was happening to those women and children. Forced rape and marriage has no place any society, especially not the United States of America. People are free to do their own thing sure, but when you start hurting others and especially children then you need to be stopped. Parents do not own their children, they are their stewards.
- TheMinimalist, on 04/27/2008, -0/+13You can separate from society, but not molest little girls!
- ElAssoWipo, on 04/27/2008, -1/+5They lost that case. Nobody was convicted of anything because there was absolutely no evidence of any kind of abuse whatsoever.
Now they are trying to make the case that young girls were forced to marry. That's also bullcrap.
They are fundamentalist mormons, they follow the original mormon religion to the letter. Just like Joseph Smith and his 34 wives (aged 14 to 55).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith,_Jr.#Pol ...
The mormons pretend the story isn't true, despite all the legal records:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individu ...
- ElAssoWipo, on 04/27/2008, -1/+5They lost that case. Nobody was convicted of anything because there was absolutely no evidence of any kind of abuse whatsoever.
- willskillz, on 04/27/2008, -1/+2Do you mean this is going to be a nonstop news story for the next year? (Head Explodes)
- Suricou, on 04/27/2008, -0/+4I think it will be on and off - expect to hear some new development rise to the headlines about once a month, as a new legal manouver is thrown in or a new witness offers potentially interesting testimony. Then it will go quiet again for a few weeks, and repeat. Base any predictions on the Madeline coverage: Huge swarm of attention, then a long period of lost interest with frequent but brief returns to the center of attention.
- Obelia, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1Deliberate isolation is also a well-known method for making people more receptive to brainwashing.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -10/+8And that is the purpose of this facade. The government wants to quash any and every group of people who choose to separate from society. By the time this is all said and done, the damage will be irreparable and the children will never want to go back.
- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -4/+6It won't be easy for them, but the only other choice was to remain in that wretched cult. Now how about freeing the kids under the control of scientology?
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -14/+5What exactly was "wretched" about that group? The way they lived was no different than how our European ancestors lived or how even early Americans lived.
Just because they shun modern decadence does not make them "wretched".- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -2/+13It was the rape and forced marriage that I found to be particularly wretched, also the miseducation. Do you really think that is acceptable conduct in the 21st century in the USA?
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -10/+4Just because the girls are under 18 does not make it rape, idiot.
- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -1/+12No, it's the act of forcing it that makes it rape, idiot.
- Suricou, on 04/27/2008, -0/+12It depends on state. First, if the sex is forced (physically) or coerced (Threaten to punish them, or convince them God will punish them, if they refuse sex), then that makes it rape regardless of age. If the sex was willing, then it depends on the age of consent, which varies between states. In the state of Texas, where the ranch is, the age is 17. Having sex with someone below that age is always illegal, the charge being statutory rape, regardless of how willing they are. Even if they initiate the sex. There might be a close-in-age exception (Don't want to jail 18-year-olds with 17-year-old girlfriends), not sure on that. The children around which this case revolves are under 17, and the men well over 18, so if any sexual activity did take place as the accusations claim then this was certinly illegal.
- Snowy, on 04/27/2008, -0/+12umm when the girl is 12....TWELVE...and pregnant that most certainly is rape. Even if it wasn't "forced" rape a girl that young does not have the ability or maturity to make proper choices, that is why we have statutory RAPE laws. The do sometimes go wrong when two 17 year olds get charged as sex offenders...but these girls were 12 and 13. You make it sound like the government just when in and starting taking children, they had left this group alone until a scared 13 year old who already had a baby called the cops.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -10/+4Just because the girls are under 18 does not make it rape, idiot.
- fgsfds, on 04/27/2008, -1/+3Well, nobody seems to be doing anything about the rape and forced marriages that go on in Amish communities. Double-standard, much?
- Suricou, on 04/27/2008, -0/+3Need witnesses - confiscating children and launching an investigation needs at least reasonable grounds for suspicion. In this case, a few rumors coupled with a phone call from one of the children informing the police about forced marriage of minors. (Said child still has not been found, leading to accusations of a hoax, but now the investigation is underway it needs to be done properly to prove either guilt or innocence)
- fgsfds, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1There are plenty of witnesses. People flee from Amish villages and report their own abuse often enough, but since they rarely have more than a third grade education and are unfamiliar with the outside world it's basically impossible for them to survive away from their villages. Unless they're young enough to become wards of the state, they're almost always returned to their village (Where they are subsequently shunned for asking for outside help, making things even worse than when they left).
- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -2/+13It was the rape and forced marriage that I found to be particularly wretched, also the miseducation. Do you really think that is acceptable conduct in the 21st century in the USA?
- TheMinimalist, on 04/27/2008, -1/+8Middle aged men molesting 12 year old girls is wretched!
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -14/+5What exactly was "wretched" about that group? The way they lived was no different than how our European ancestors lived or how even early Americans lived.
- executorzz, on 04/27/2008, -8/+15It appears that the government raided this compound on bad information from a prank caller in Colorado because they have never found the abused individual who supposedly made the calls from the compound.
See how the government and main stream media is sweeping the real story under the rug. False accusations and prank calls can have your children taken from you...Jokes aside this shouldn't be happening in america. And I smell a big lawsuit against the state of Texas.- ee456544, on 04/27/2008, -4/+10yeah but it seems they were abused anyway.
- herkimer65, on 04/27/2008, -3/+4Define abuse.
- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -2/+5Forced marriage, forced sex, consistenly fed warped lies, taught racism etc?
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -5/+4So they lived like our ancestors did. How is that abuse? How is modern society not abuse?
- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -2/+3You can go back to the caves if you want, but do not drag any others with you. You do not own your children, and if you are found to be unfit as a parent then they state has a moral obligation to intervene on their behalf and take them into care.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -3/+4Our ancestors did not live in caves, moron.
"You do not own your children"
Neither did this sect. They raised their children according to their values. The children were not abused, yet you claim they were.
"if you are found to be unfit as a parent then they state has a moral obligation to intervene on their behalf and take them into care."
Except these parents took care of their children very well. You claim moral supremacy yet you cannot tell me why your moral values are better or where your moral values derive from. Poof. - willskillz, on 04/27/2008, -2/+5@ hauntedchippy.... I can't believe you basically just said that the government owns your kids. You're retarded. Go Away with that nonsense before you infect the rest of society with your thinking!
- Slackdragon, on 04/27/2008, -1/+3I don't own my children? Until they become reasoning individuals I certainly do. My job is to take them from biomass from my partner and I guide them into reasoning INDIVIDUALS. The individuals part will happen eventually no matter what. It's the "reasoning" part thats tricky.
Anyway, if MY children, whom I wouldn't hesitate to slit your throat in the physical defense of, aren't MINE, who do they "belong" to? They are MY genetic code. My genetic mass. MY flesh and blood. I pay for their food and board. I pay for their clothes and education. I buy their toys. I soothe their wounds and worries.
Yes. I own them. They are mine. I love them more than I ever knew I could love another person. Until they become true individuals, yes, I own them. Just as my parents owned me.
I think part of the problem with society today is that there is no accountability. No "ownership", if you will. Maybe some schools wouldn't be so dangerous if parents took ownership of their kids instead of passing that stewardship onto the government as you seem to be suggesting. The government has always proven to be a lousy replacement for personal responsibility. - hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -3/+1@Willskillz @Slackdragon.
Children are not property. As parents you have a duty to protect them and raise them, if you are incapable of that then for the childs sake they must be taken into care. I cannot believe that you actually consider that children are 'things' that you own. Children are human beings, not property, not pets. You think your children are something for you to do with as you please? Then, damn right the government should protect them from inhuman monsters like you.
- twomeyw23334, on 04/27/2008, -1/+2It doesn't matter, the ends doesn't justify the means. If there was suspected abuse, they should have got warrants and gone through the investigative procedure. What if there turned out to be no abuse? There is no way the government should be able to take your kids away from you based on a prank call, especially one with a completely different area code, they did literally no fact checking here.
- herkimer65, on 04/27/2008, -3/+4Define abuse.
- cowtown, on 04/27/2008, -1/+8Exactly. Prank calls may get your children taken from you... IF the accusations are true. There is no way a 13 year old can give informed consent to an arranged marriage, and especially to the consummation of it. Something tells me the caller is going to find that any time she does for this crime will go very smoothly, with lots of TV, outside food, and a nice one-person cell. Think Andy Dufresne without the chronic rape, which, come to think of it, is more than some of those little girls could have hoped for.
- donatj, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2Theres also no way anything a 13 year old can be trusted, ie Salem Witch Trials
- Leomarth, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2Especially if you do as mainstream society does and hobble your kids so they never grow into adults. For the majority of human history 13 was the age at which people got married. Our psychology hasn't changed.
And before anyone says "But we only lived to 25 then." that's *****. We've lived to be 70 since before the BCE. The idea that we only had a lifespan of 35 comes from including deaths under 10 into the statistic. Historically, if we lived past 10, we lived to be 60 to 70 even in ancient times.
- tweetsa, on 04/27/2008, -2/+11if i prank call the police and they raid your home and find a bunch of dead hookers, should you not be charged?
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -6/+4There was no evidence of a crime committed in this compound other than maybe sex with teenagers. Not exactly a valid analogy on your part.
- Snowy, on 04/27/2008, -2/+8"OTHER THAN MAYBE SEX WITH TEENAGERS"...that IS a crime...and not the environment to raise children in
- korvan504521, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1isn't it a bit hypocrtical for people to be against teenagers having sex with older people, but perfectly fine with teenagers having sex with other teenagers? personally i think if someone isn't emotionally ready for sex, they shouldn't have sex at all, regardless of the age of their partner.
- Snowy, on 04/27/2008, -2/+8"OTHER THAN MAYBE SEX WITH TEENAGERS"...that IS a crime...and not the environment to raise children in
- cathars1s, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2Herring v. United States is deciding that right now.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -6/+4There was no evidence of a crime committed in this compound other than maybe sex with teenagers. Not exactly a valid analogy on your part.
- sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -3/+3I agree, it appears that the children were taken away unlawfully as a result of bad information. Isn't the normal process to find the abused victim and remove them not their entire city? That's the equivalent of saying I think Jane down the street is being abused so we're going to round up the entire neighborhood. I understand that there were fears about the girl being hidden and relocated, but I think they over reacted. It sounds to me to be more the "Let's breakup this cult of outsiders" mentality than lets protect children. Remember, there is no proven case of abuse at this time, only allegations. The only proven case of abuse was with Warren Jeffs who is in jail, where he belongs.
- Suricou, on 04/27/2008, -0/+3That would be the case if the claims were of the one incident, but the caller (Prank or not is still unknown, the call recording remains confidential) claimed that this was not an unusual occurance in the community and that the religious leaders had endorsed it. Given that the FCLDS split away from the larger CLDS because the latter rejected polygamy, the claims do sound plausable.
- sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1They sound plausible, and the FLDS split because of polygamy, but poligamy isn't the matter at hand, the matter is sexual abuse of a minor (polygamy != pedophelia.) You can't just arrest a whole community because of suspicions of activity, you need to have allegations against specific individuals of unlawful acts. (sarcasm) Hell, then we should just arrest every muslim in the country. Yeah, lets go into every mosque and arrest everyone and separate them for interrogation. (/sarcasm) How do you think that would go over? So why the double standard?
To make it more complex when the FLDS moved to Texas the legal age of consent in the state was 14, not 16. It's going to become a very very tricky situation. If the FLDS decide to sue this could be a very costly mistake for the state. Personally, I don't agree with the FLDS religion or lifestyle (hell I don't agree with any religion) but it's a question of civil rights/liberties. We are treading a thin line here.- korvan504521, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1I agree, it would seem these folks are quite on board with the reality of modern law, and I can forsee a very large and expensive settlement in their favor in a few years. Of course, by then their social fabric will have been utterly obliterated and they won't be able to reassemble their commune. . . which might be the whole point of all this.
- sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1They sound plausible, and the FLDS split because of polygamy, but poligamy isn't the matter at hand, the matter is sexual abuse of a minor (polygamy != pedophelia.) You can't just arrest a whole community because of suspicions of activity, you need to have allegations against specific individuals of unlawful acts. (sarcasm) Hell, then we should just arrest every muslim in the country. Yeah, lets go into every mosque and arrest everyone and separate them for interrogation. (/sarcasm) How do you think that would go over? So why the double standard?
- Suricou, on 04/27/2008, -0/+3That would be the case if the claims were of the one incident, but the caller (Prank or not is still unknown, the call recording remains confidential) claimed that this was not an unusual occurance in the community and that the religious leaders had endorsed it. Given that the FCLDS split away from the larger CLDS because the latter rejected polygamy, the claims do sound plausable.
- ee456544, on 04/27/2008, -4/+10yeah but it seems they were abused anyway.
- matthewmartin, on 04/27/2008, -9/+11Isn't it great how we have freedom of religion as long as it is just like the Baptists? Get too weird and we'll bust you up. After all ritualized cannibalisms and zombies (communion and resurrection) is the definition of ordinary.
- methos75, on 04/27/2008, -2/+12The baptist don't set up little villages that are in reality nothing more than freak dens for pediphiles, the day the baptist start setting up their own little compounds where 50 year old men rape and impreganate 13 year, is the day we throw them all in jail also.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -7/+4Having sex with girls who have entered puberty is not pedophilia, it just violates stupid moral sensibilities of modern society.
My father married my mother when she was 17. Is that pedophilia? How is having sex with a 13 year old any different?- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -2/+3It violates the law. Moreso when it's forced.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -2/+4Too bad if it "violates the law". I'm so sorry that your delicate sensibilities were hurt by the idea of a self-sustained community that isn't free to be decadent as you like. Besides, you think you live in a "free" society (in contrast with what you call "forced" and "slavery" in this sect), yet you are a slave of the greatest order, in slavery to a capitalist-industrialist machine where the collective freedom to be degenerate and base is in essence a collective slavery keeping modern man from transcending the material into the ideal.
And my final comment (since I'm being rate limited):
Nobody was kept as slaves, idiot. I have no problem with arraigned marriages. You seem to have a problem with something as simple as that, but you have absolutely no problem with the decadent culture that we all live in that encourages materialism and base behaviors. You'd rather force them to live in a degenerate society than allow them to live in a self-sustaining community that raised healthy families separate from the filth and degeneracy of modernity.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -2/+4Too bad if it "violates the law". I'm so sorry that your delicate sensibilities were hurt by the idea of a self-sustained community that isn't free to be decadent as you like. Besides, you think you live in a "free" society (in contrast with what you call "forced" and "slavery" in this sect), yet you are a slave of the greatest order, in slavery to a capitalist-industrialist machine where the collective freedom to be degenerate and base is in essence a collective slavery keeping modern man from transcending the material into the ideal.
- methos75, on 04/27/2008, -3/+5If your father was older than her by more than three years, yes IMO. As to the rest, if yoiu think its alright to have sex with a 13 year old when your 50, you need to be thrown in prison because your a danger to society.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -6/+3In your opinion! Wow, I'm so glad that you're the moral arbiter around here. I'm so glad that you get to decide exactly what is and what isn't rape.
- methos75, on 04/27/2008, -1/+6They were forced against their will to have sex with these peds, thats rape no matter how you slice it.
- AlexGrant, on 04/27/2008, -2/+8You are really starting to ***** me off. Yeah we get it, you've probably read some Nietzsche and realize that there is no objective morality. If you want to go live in some country where everyone does whatever they hell they want, go for it. Unfortunately for you, most countries are built upon stable institutions and laws in an effort to maintain a stable society.
If you think you've got it all figured out and want to defend pedophilia, go write a book about it, I'm sure you have amazing philosophical ideas that have never been touched upon in the past. - sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -2/+2It is pedophilia. Terms like pedophilia are ethnocentric terms defined by culture. In our culture, that is pedophilia. If you want to look at us completely as animals without human culture, then a male having sex with a female that has reached puberty is normal. Dog's, cats, horses, lions, tigers, etc. all do that. Fortunately we aren't wild animals (at least I hope most of us aren't.) We have culture and society meant to provide a framework for us to co-exist and protect the rights and freedoms of those who live within it. What those rights and freedoms are along with the laws that protect them are defined by culture. Whether or not you think they are stupid is immaterial. If you want to descent into an argument of moral relativism then go right ahead, but no sane person will go there with you as you can never have a real position... ad nauseum.
- hauntedchippy, on 04/27/2008, -2/+3It violates the law. Moreso when it's forced.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -7/+4Having sex with girls who have entered puberty is not pedophilia, it just violates stupid moral sensibilities of modern society.
- expo1001, on 04/27/2008, -2/+7When keeping women as sex slaves and brood mares is a tenant of your faith, I think it's time for the government to step in. Or do you agree with the forced marriage of minor children to middle aged men? If FLDS was just some wacky but innocuous religion with weird customs or ways of life, I'd say more power to them, but that's hardly the case. The male members of the church were allowed access to the outside world while their wives were kept as ignorant prisoners.
- methos75, on 04/27/2008, -2/+12The baptist don't set up little villages that are in reality nothing more than freak dens for pediphiles, the day the baptist start setting up their own little compounds where 50 year old men rape and impreganate 13 year, is the day we throw them all in jail also.
- cubicrystal, on 04/27/2008, -9/+16This whole charade is outrageous - from the beginning to the end. RETURN THOSE CHILDREN TO THEIR MOTHERS!
- ee456544, on 04/27/2008, -8/+4this is for the children's own good. they were abused maby u think abuse or sexual abuse is legal but its NOT.
- sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -2/+5There are only allegations of abuse, no proof that anyone was actually abused. Are people not innocent before being proven guilty or are we just going to resort to mob justice? Oh yeah, this is digg, socialist conspiracy-theory motivated mob justice it is.
- methos75, on 04/27/2008, -2/+4Some of the children are 13 and pregnant, there is ample proof.
- korvan504521, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1yeah, tell that to the girls back in middle school that were getting pregnant.
I'm against kids having sex, but this BS about it being somehow ok as long as they're both the same age is moronic.
- korvan504521, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1yeah, tell that to the girls back in middle school that were getting pregnant.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -5/+3According to modern values, having sex with anyone who is under 18, regardless of their pubescence, is abuse and pedophilia.
This sect existed to escape the decadence of modern values and look how modernity is reacting. They're tearing up a fully functional community that provided, cared for, and nurtured their children and introducing them to decadence. LOL PROGRESS! - mrwizard14, on 04/27/2008, -4/+2Did someone miss the part about it being a polygamist sect? That alone is proof that they should be removed.
- Leomarth, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2@methos75
Start with your local middle schools then. You'll find several instances of that there. Remember... "Think globally, act locally?" hehe.
- methos75, on 04/27/2008, -2/+4Some of the children are 13 and pregnant, there is ample proof.
- sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -2/+5There are only allegations of abuse, no proof that anyone was actually abused. Are people not innocent before being proven guilty or are we just going to resort to mob justice? Oh yeah, this is digg, socialist conspiracy-theory motivated mob justice it is.
- methos75, on 04/27/2008, -6/+5The moms are unfit to have the children back, they allowed them to be raped, abused, etc so they deserve to lose them.
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -6/+4Who died and made you the arbiter of morality? Just because this community decided that its values were to include arranged marriages and early motherhood does not make it "rape" or "abuse". Our ancestors practiced the same things and manged to create some of the most noteworthy civilizations ever known.
- ee456544, on 04/27/2008, -5/+6its rape you ***** pedophile. you deserve to be shot in the head. we dont care what they did 2 years ago or 5000 years ago you are not above the ***** laws so ***** shut the hell up
- methos75, on 04/27/2008, -1/+5Tell you what, you come snooping around my daughter, and you will find out quickly that everything our ancestors did wasn't all good, as I reintroduce you to inqustion style torture.
- Snowy, on 04/27/2008, -1/+5No one made him arbiter of morality, those are the laws in the United States of America, where everyone has a chance to elect officials to vote on those laws, so those laws are decided by the society as a whole. Those same ancestors you speak of were the ones that decided that early motherhood was a bad idea and made it illegal.
- donatj, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2This was only at most some, not all. It makes no sense whatsoever, it would be like your neighbor neglecting their child, so they take away yours too, its senseless
- DiggNazi2, on 04/27/2008, -6/+4Who died and made you the arbiter of morality? Just because this community decided that its values were to include arranged marriages and early motherhood does not make it "rape" or "abuse". Our ancestors practiced the same things and manged to create some of the most noteworthy civilizations ever known.
- ee456544, on 04/27/2008, -8/+4this is for the children's own good. they were abused maby u think abuse or sexual abuse is legal but its NOT.
- gogo29732, on 04/27/2008, -4/+4did you see the moms on the today show? their speech was closer to something I would imagine coming from an alien...
- sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -1/+4Maybe because you have limited contact with foreign cultures...? May I suggest a course or two on cultural and religious anthropology at your nearest university..
- Hincapie, on 04/27/2008, -1/+1link to video? i'd like to see it.
- darundal, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2Video viewable here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/16/polygamis ...
(link is to an article with the video embedded because the video from the MSNBC site doesn't seem to be playing in linux)
- ee456544, on 04/27/2008, -3/+0id like to see there mothers on Nancy grace. she will take care of them!
- Adahn, on 04/27/2008, -2/+6"god is not great"
- HayString, on 04/27/2008, -1/+5Interesting how the color red seems to have some kind of stigma with it but yet Warren Jeffs was driving a red escalade when he was arrested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs#Arrest.2 ...
- sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -2/+9One thing that is very scary is that these kids are going to be put into baptist and evangelical homes . You can't do more psychological damage than that. These evangelicals are the same people that put out mormon hate literature on a regular basis, they hate mormon's with a passion. I know b/c I have many mormon friends (I'm a pastafarian) and I've seen it first hand. These people are just as scary and extreme as the FLDS group. Don't let those people anywhere near those kids.
- mrwizard14, on 04/27/2008, -0/+4Flying Spaghetti Monster FTW!
But yeah, that makes sense. - methos75, on 04/27/2008, -0/+0I am Pentecoastel which is an evangelical Chruch, and I have never really seen any Morman hate.Granted I m sure its there, but I don't think its really widespread.
- sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1It's widespread if you are a Mormon. You wouldn't have heard of it as hate. You would likely be introduced to it as "outreach material" or "evangelical produced educational material about cults" and whatnot. For every one of their conferences they have to go through this crap: http://www.fairlds.org/Anti-Mormons/2002_October_G ... If you see that every time you go to church what would you call it? If they were muslims being protested against this would be all over the news, but somehow it's ok to discriminate against certain groups.
- mrwizard14, on 04/27/2008, -0/+4Flying Spaghetti Monster FTW!
- maddikp, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2Freedom!!
- bossm4n, on 04/27/2008, -1/+3This entire operation is a mistake. While the whole thought of a polygamist compound is both illegal and appalling, the government has known about these people for decades, but yet has taken no action against them. Only after a fraudulent phone call alleging abuse, the government comes in a rips these kids away from their mothers. We are supposed to be protecting and rescuing the children, but the solution is likely worse than the problem. They should allow the mothers to leave the compound and reunite them with the children. If laws are being broken, shut the place down but don't put these kids into an overwhelmed and broken foster care system where they are more likely to be abused and traumatized than they were inside the compound.
- Hincapie, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1thats exactly what theyre trying to do. theyre taking extra care to not traumatize the children, and i'm sure they will be reunited with their mothers at some point, they were not abused by them.
- ElAssoWipo, on 04/27/2008, -0/+5According to foster care statistics I've seen:
Only 1% of these kids will get to go to college.
50% of them won't graduate high-school.
33% will be homeless in their lifetime.
50% of the girls will be pregnant by 19.
25% of the boys will be fathers by 19.
Each and everyone of them is 30 times more likely to end up in prison.
http://www.azhope.com/Foster_Care_Statistics.html - gandhi2, on 04/27/2008, -1/+3What exactly is illegal about a polygamist compound?
The only state which has laws about co-habitation is Utah. There is no federal law against being (legally) married to one woman and having sex with 8 other women on the side. If there were, perhaps the divorce rate would drop as people faced prison time for affairs? Is it perhaps the compound part which is illegal? I don't recall that there is any federal laws about living apart from the world. Also, what exactly is appalling about a polygamist compound? Is it any more appalling than homosexual relationships or wife-swapping? Also, I seem to believe that in America, we prosecute individuals who have violated the law...not entire communites. Why did we need to shut the place down and remove all the children from families that are as yet unconvicted of any crime, because there were accusations to individuals?
- gkiltz, on 04/27/2008, -1/+1TV is becoming a legacy technology anyway!
February 19 may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back!
Do they have web access?
Let's face it, in 2008, web savvy is as important as the ability to read was in 1908! Those who are better at it will fare better in the world as a whole, those who are less skilled will fare worse!- Suricou, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2Which makes it all the more important to consider that the children have never been permitted to operate a computer. The way they were being raised, they would have had no prospects of finding employment outside of the ranch at all. I do not believe this was intentional, only that the parents and the ranch administrators were unable to comprehend that anyone might want to leave - who would want to go out into the sinful, corrupt, satanic world when they could remain with God's People? Thus, why bother educating the children to survive outside?
- Leomarth, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1Off topic, I know, but I don't think the Feb 19th date will mean much of anything to anyone. Most people have cable/satellite, even if they are poor. And those technologies make the issues of switching off analog broadcast irrelevant.
- willskillz, on 04/27/2008, -0/+3I think they've purposely removed the kids so they don't have another Waco type atrocity when they decide to firebomb the place later.
- ee456544, on 04/27/2008, -1/+3humm i believe i may have been wrong earlier. i got to stop watching the mainstream media. you cant trust them. we don't have all the facts.
- sheldonl, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1And you never will with the media because the news is always interpreted through the people/organizations reporting it. You will get a distortion that reflects the media's beliefs and biases as much as any real facts. Objectivity is ultimately a pipe dream, it's a nice idea but rarely happens in the real world.
- justice7, on 04/27/2008, -0/+7I am reminded of "The Village".
- JSStewart, on 04/27/2008, -1/+5First, get these kids the hell out of Texas.
Then quit worrying about isolating them. End the isolation now. The world is not going to change anytime soon, and the sooner they are equipped to deal with it the better.
What is going on now is just an evangelical science fair experiment. - Hincapie, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1this is all so absurd, i hope it is ended soon and the abusers will be in prison for life.
- korvan504521, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1and if there *wasn't* any abuse? should the cops who destroyed this community be held acountable?
- pettdog78, on 04/27/2008, -1/+4In the end this is going to cost the American people a lot more then if the people were just left alone. It turns out that the cry for help actually came from a 33 year old black woman from Colorado. She had made the call claiming to be a 13 year old girl being abused in the sect.
This is the evidence that was used to brake into the homes of the FLDS members and because their search warrent will end up being invalid the FLDS will be able to turn around and place a whopping big law suit on the government for millions... We'll have ended up being forced to pay them millions just to hush the whole thing under the rug providing them with enough funds to build a complex even larger then the one they had... =/- Rizmaster, on 04/27/2008, -3/+1Yeah because freedom of religion totally covers systematic child rape /catholic church
- Leomarth, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2You can find out who has been raping children, or forcing teenagers into marriage, without putting 400 other children through this. Stop with the red herrings.
- Rizmaster, on 04/27/2008, -3/+1Yeah because freedom of religion totally covers systematic child rape /catholic church
- mrwizard14, on 04/27/2008, -4/+2Honestly, the fact that they broke off to be able to continue polygamy is pretty much disgusting as it is. That alone is enough reason to keep the kids safe by removing them from the place. But honestly, Texas is enough of a crazy place that we should just fence them off from the rest of the civilized world.
- methos75, on 04/27/2008, -0/+3Most texans are good at jumping fences though.
- korvan504521, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1texan /= all of the people now IN texas.
- Leomarth, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2So your disgust at polygamy is enough to remove another persons children. I find that disgusting. But I, unlike you, won't advocate any consequences to you for my disgust.
- methos75, on 04/27/2008, -0/+3Most texans are good at jumping fences though.
- blackturtleus, on 04/27/2008, -2/+6The bottom line is that there was insufficient evidence to justify the kidnapping of over 400 children. Law enforcement should not have this kind of latitude! Sure, in this case, the FLDS church has been so vilified that few will stand up for their rights, but if law enforcement gets away with this atrocity, then what's to stop them from doing something just a little bit more outrageous in the future. I do not support the alleged practices of the FLDS church, but when their Constitutional rights are compromised, that makes all the rest of us less safe from the excesses of overly zealous law enforcement officials. So, for that reason, I hope that the FLDS church gets some good lawyers and I hope they sue Texas of the face of the earth, so to speak.
- gandhi2, on 04/27/2008, -0/+4I'll stick up for them. It doesn't matter if 99% of the community is guilty of abuse...the fact that 1/100th is bereft of their children for who knows how long while they get the trial in order(it could be years) is a disgrace to justice.
The reasons I will support them even if the majority are guilty(which I don't believe for an instant) is that it is VITAL to maintain our rights of fair and speedy trial, and to be convicted before being condemned. CPS in this case, and in fact most of the time, acts as a band of goons, without regard for concerns or well-being of either the child or parents. The evidence leading to this trial is sparse and unverified. We cannot support conviction or even justify a warrant for arrest on such little evidence.
Another reason I'll stick up for this crowd is that there seems to be no way to fix the *****-up that the Texas law enforcement has made, IF the majority of parents are found to be innocent. When parents are wrongfully accused, there is absolutely no recourse. Parents are considered guilty from the slightest accusation, and while a trial is going on, will not have any opportunity to be with their children. How can this be reversed if the parent is acquitted? This is not a concern of the court system or the CPS, and that must be changed. Good parents should not have to live with the horror of being separated from their children for months or even years and then simply told "Oops. Sorry. We screwed up, get over it."
Finally, I support the group partly because they have been vilified so much...and although most people will claim they are against the marrying of older men to younger woman, or that underage sex occurred, or arranged marriages, I believe motivations lie in different areas. The evidence for these things is not sufficient in the least, but people will latch on to them in an eyeblink because they would REALLY like to condemn the practice of polygamy and of living closed off from the modern world. Frankly I don't see a single thing wrong with consenting individuals having sex or forming marriage contracts with whomever they please. I am primarily talking about consenting "adults" as we have defined "adult," but I could still perhaps defend somebody as young as 16 giving consent. I don't see how we can have an age of consent of 16 when it's another 16 yr old, yet somebody who is married prior to 16 cannot give consent? There is not consistency...if the person is old enough to make decisions for him/herself, then what's different about having children vs. simply boinking each other? I wouldn't prefer my children getting married or having sex at that age, but it certainly happens in some corners of the world. Marriage at 16 yrs would be considered pretty conservative just 100 yrs ago.
- gandhi2, on 04/27/2008, -0/+4I'll stick up for them. It doesn't matter if 99% of the community is guilty of abuse...the fact that 1/100th is bereft of their children for who knows how long while they get the trial in order(it could be years) is a disgrace to justice.
- Fallout911, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2Show them porno and give them Pepsi!
- solid12345, on 04/27/2008, -1/+4This is a travesty that the government rounded up these children, from a legal standpoint this is unprecedented to take 400 children off the basis of a prank phone call.
It is also being buried and covered up by the media except for one story I read yesterday that many of the children live in 2 parent households, not all the people who live on this compound are polygamists. What right did the government have to take their kids as well?
If there is someone guilty of rape, then they should be punished, but not all parents should be punished for the actions of a few.- Leomarth, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1It was a justification. Just the thought of polygamy gives most people a sense of disgust. And on that sense of disgust they try to frame it by using morality. I'd be willing to be the local and state law enforcement were just biting at the bit waiting to swoop in like they did.
A philosopher I listen to said that any couple can go off and be weirdos together. The "tribe" doesn't care. However, once they threaten to perpetuate their weirdness by having children, then suddenly the tribe cares. Once they realize that anyone that is out of the ordinary may bring that into another generation, the tribe gets worried.
I experienced this when my wife and I informed my in-laws we would not be raising our children as Christians. When my wife and I made the choice for ourselves, they grumbled, but that was it. When we informed them we wouldn't raise our children as Christians, and we didn't want them influencing our children in that manner, they really had a fit and started talking about "grandparents rights" and how we, but my wife especially, were an obstacle to their grandchildren's salvation.- korvan504521, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1for years the thought of homosexuality filled people with disgust. thats changing.
will people look back on this sort of treatment of polygamists the same way we look back on the decades of denigration homosexuals have received?
- korvan504521, on 04/28/2008, -0/+1for years the thought of homosexuality filled people with disgust. thats changing.
- Leomarth, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1It was a justification. Just the thought of polygamy gives most people a sense of disgust. And on that sense of disgust they try to frame it by using morality. I'd be willing to be the local and state law enforcement were just biting at the bit waiting to swoop in like they did.
- shounenyuki, on 04/27/2008, -5/+0http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2008/04/ ...
that is a interview with some of the mothers from the ranch .... i get creepy vibes from them, someone kill the mothers with fire....- quakken, on 04/27/2008, -0/+4They're bound to talk differently when they have none of the influences that you have. They don't watch TV and don't use the internet, they don't have the same culture. They're bound to talk differently.
- apphappy, on 04/27/2008, -0/+0http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/video-sect-mothers-p ...
Here is another video featuring the mothers of these kids. - jeweledmagic, on 04/27/2008, -1/+1This isolated community reminds me of that movie where the adults dressed up like scarey monsters to keep everyone inside the town..I can't remember the name of the movie. The kids are the victims here, poor little kids have had their lives turned upside down.
- girlpirate, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2That movie was utter crap and its title should be forgotten. Mr. Shamalamadingdong needs to stop making movies.
- TsuruchiBrian, on 04/27/2008, -0/+2Now the question that is on everyone's mind:
Will the children be allowed to play GTA4 when it is released tomorrow at midnight?- quakken, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1Every child will need to play that game.
- nursethalia, on 04/27/2008, -0/+0But that's a good thing! Trust me, with all the garbage on TV nowadays, these poor girls would likely kill themselves after less than an hour of some awful reality show like House of Ho's or something, or whatever it is they have on now. I haven't had cable in about 3 years so I shudder to think how far it might have progressed.
- lone_one, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1This who story reminds me of Survivor by Chuck Palahniuk.
- Leomarth, on 04/27/2008, -0/+1I feel sorry for the children and the parents; for the trauma that they both are enduring. And while I think children should be brought up as well as possible, I also believe that, especially in the realm of religion, parents should have unfettered right over their children.
I can already hear the objections that the children will grow up and they will find it difficult to adapt to normal society. I can hear the objections that "society has a interest in them". Well, as cold blooded as it sounds, these children will pay a small portion of the price for freedom in the United States. And, as to the objection of society having an interest in these children, and how they are raised... what it really means is that society (which in itself is nothing more than a conceptual aggregation of individuals, and therefore doesn't actually exist) is actually interested in it's convenience rather than the freedom. - wexmajor, on 04/28/2008, -1/+2No TV? What the *****? Why are they still keeping them isolated? That in itself should be illegal. I don't give a ***** what you do yourself, but you shouldn't allowed to drag children, yes even your "own" children, into wacky ass radical religious schemes that involve complete social isolation.
- gemmakicn, on 04/28/2008, -2/+1I would be of the opinion that these "parents" by not removing their children from this abusive environment and often participating in the psychological aspects of the abuse, have abdicated any rights of visitation.
These children need a sensitive crash course the the real world, that can help them to realise how badly they have been lied to.
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