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- corevette, on 10/12/2007, -130/+495If everyone was atheist...wouldn't have had half the wars that we've had. I personally think Atheism is the way to go.
- scrubadub, on 10/12/2007, -38/+238@ssanders "The only people that obsess more about God than religious people are Atheists."
What group isn't included in religious people and atheists? - FTLJohnson, on 10/12/2007, -19/+151@nreynolds
You need to educate yourself A LOT.
Morals don't come from religion... and neither do LAWS. Laws come from violent people threatening one another in an organized fashion in order to get their way.
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It is standard operating procedure for a Christian apologist to point out that all ethics and morals come from God. It is, so they claim, therefore impossible for the Atheist to be a moral person. Many Atheists counter this argument by pointing out that as a matter of fact they are ethical persons and that they know the difference between right and wrong.
"In fact," says the Atheist, "it is the Christian who admits that the difference between right and wrong is unclear; all the Christian knows is what is sin according to God and what is not sin."
The Atheist continues: "What a pity that the only reason you, a Christian, do not steal is because your god threatened you with horrible punishment if you do. I'm sorry you don't know that stealing is wrong. It causes innocent people to suffer and the inflicting of needless pain is the worst of all crimes."
But now there's a new reason to say it is impossible for morality to be based on this religious belief. I's so simple that some will wonder why something so obvious is not brought more often.
Let us imagine a particular person. And just for fun let's call her Madalyn. Now Madalyn has never had religion. By this Christian definition Madalyn is without morals of any kind. Along comes a missionary and tells Madalyn all about Yahveh and Jesus. He tells bible stories that illustrate what wonderful, upright examples they set for sinful mankind. He tells about the ten commandments and how all morals come from the deity.
Here is the quandary:
How is Madalyn, whom we agree has no morals, able to judge if this deity is a moral god? We might observe that one should not worship a god unless that god is worthy of worship. Surely, one would not love a god unless that god was worthy of love.
In other words, Madalyn must first make an independent judgment -- based upon Madalyn's own godless moral values, that God is worthy of love and worship. Until that independent value judgment is made, Madalyn's conversion to Christianity or any other religion is -- to use a very old expression -- putting the cart before the horse.
The next time you hear that tired old claim that you can't be moral without God, just ask, "Let's assume what you say is true. Since I have no knowledge of morality, how is it possible for me to understand what you are saying?"
Another approach you might prefer is to observe, "Since you just now pointed out to me that I can have no morals without God, what standards do you suggest I use to make up my own mind that your god is a good god and ought to be my god, too?"
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“God may be our judge, but we judge God to satisfy ourselves that God is a worthy judge.”
And *I'm* not even an atheist. Your point was just sad and uninformed. - theholotrope, on 10/12/2007, -25/+133"Do you really think people wouldn't find a reason to kill each other without religion? Do you really think religion has killed more people than governments? Do you really think that violence would not increase if the people who believe in a higher power had nothing to believe in?"
I think religion had its place a long time ago when it was a necessary teaching tool, but it soon evolved into something used for power and control and became widely misinterpreted when we started imposing it on others and some even killing for it.
I think at this time, we should evolve into something that doesn't inherently need metaphor and face reality as it is(as Carl Sagan said.) There is no more need for a "man upstairs" when you understand that you can live a good life believing in what you want. - Alphabet, on 10/12/2007, -11/+112@bonked
Saying atheism is a religion is like saying "not collecting stamps" is a hobby. - rhinopig, on 10/12/2007, -33/+114@scrubadub
Agnostics.
I think half the wars is a bit of an exaggeration, but I do think there would have been a few less (the crusades comes to mind). And while I respect peoples religious beliefs, I'm not so sure most religions are more beneficial than they are harmful. I think they might be more like science (and so much else) in that they are just tools (for social control, IMO, but that isn't nessicarly a bad thing), neither inherently good nor bad. They've helped mediate peace and war; Brought both comforted and ostracized many; Promoted social change and condoned cruelty to others; Contributed to and inhibited scientific knowledge. Ultimately I think it comes down to: it's not what you believe, but what you do that counts.
That said, I would consider myself an "atheist missionary" of sorts, but not so much as to force my beliefs on someone who doesn't want them.
Finally, plug for my first and only digg submission:
http://digg.com/videos_educational/Video_of_philosopher_Dan_Dennett_speaking_at_TED_Conference - sparkey, on 10/12/2007, -11/+90@dave830
First of all - you just Godwined this post.
Secondly, that's a fairly ignorant thing to say. Do you think Hitler was an atheist? From Mein Kampf:
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
Doesn't sound too atheistic to me. - atdigg, on 10/12/2007, -13/+81I also respect the right of other people to be idiots, however I draw the line when they start to influence my life: tell me what I can watch of TV, tell me what I can listen on radio, how my tax money can be spent (sexual education campaigns that don't tell people how to protect themselves).
- FTLJohnson, on 10/12/2007, -14/+72@ssanders
He didn't say people wouldn't find reasons to kill each other...
He said there would not be as much WAR. He'd be right.
Crimes of passion and murders caused by petty criminals gone out of control, are far different than massive armies of zealots who believe that their actions will grant them eternal happiness upon their death. - DamianG123, on 10/12/2007, -18/+73What ssanders said was at least partially true, and any atheist who is too proud to admit it is just as narrow-minded and zealous as someone of faith. Whether you are an atheist or have faith in a higher power, it's just as offensive to push your beliefs on someone. Some atheists may say that if everyone was an atheist we wouldn't have as many wars. Yet, a Christian, Muslim, or Jew would probably say the same thing. "If everyone was a Christian then we wouldn't have as many wars." The fact is that both atheists and people of faith have groups that try to push their beliefs on others. It is a form of elitism. My opinion is that if everyone was an atheist (which is unrealistic), we would still have wars for different reasons. Many wars are started in the name of a religion or God, but the real reasons behind many wars are economic and political power, so please try to keep that in mind. Without religion, there would still be just as many wars, but for different excuses.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -28/+80Atheists are usually the ones who are most able to think for themselves, and leave other religions alone. I'm tired of people thinking their religion is the only right one and trying to impose their beliefs on others. "God" is going to be the end of us.
I consider myself to be an athiest. - gkzhang, on 10/12/2007, -14/+63I think differently. Usually religion is used as a tool to promote wars. I think if religion was out of the picture the real reason why wars occur would come out. Instead of "Your view of life insults my view of life." You would have "We really just don't like you because you are different." People would make up excuses.
- davidjayhawk, on 10/12/2007, -13/+51Not to split hairs but I find agnosticism (leaning heavily towards athiesm) to be the way to go since there is no way I can actually disprove the existence of a higher power.
Anyway, thanks for posting this video. I see very few things that give me that sense of pride and community about my beliefs (and yes they are beliefs, not a lack of beliefs). - mattev, on 10/12/2007, -40/+76quite true...and yes atheism is the only way to go
- theholotrope, on 10/12/2007, -11/+47Excellent video, especially being an atheist myself.
Although presenting dozens of achievers is not exactly posing an argument, it does show how atheism should not have the current stigma which is ridiculous. It is based purely on ignorance, insecurity and perhaps, too much comfort. Hopefully this changes.
Also, I think I heard my catholic neighbor scream "No!" after he saw that Chistopher Reeves reference. - headzoo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+37"As for this video... it was good, but I could make one with christians who have done amazing things, so what is the point?"
You completely missed the whole point of the video. It wasn't meant to show how Atheist are better than Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. It was meant to bust the myth, set by the Bible, that Atheist are evil people with no redeeming value.
That was the point. - mattev, on 10/12/2007, -15/+45i should have said that it is the only way to go for me on that...i respect everyone's beliefs and all, so sorry
- pnyphnz, on 10/12/2007, -26/+54Religion and the lack thereof are not prerequisites for good or evil nor smart or dumb.
- Jolla, on 10/12/2007, -12/+37This guy sums it up pretty good.
http://spl.haxial.net/religion/god/ - Twango, on 10/12/2007, -3/+28"it soon evolved into something used for power and control and became widely misinterpreted"
*Organized* religion was widely embraced by the state (e.g. Rome); and became a tool to keep people thinking the right things - like waiting until after death to enjoy life - like submitting to some (invisible) superior being represented by (visible) authorities....
And in many ways what started out positively became an endless scam - a great way to avoid ditch digging. In the 20th century, the scammers quickly adopted media technology and bilked millions of hundreds of millions ... preaching what they could not personally practice.
The experiences which (unfortunately) led to organized religion are still available to all ... without the organizational overhead. - looksliketrent, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26Athiesm isn't 'disproving the existence of a higher power'. Athiests simply don't believe higher power(s) exist.
- coheedcollapse, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26You're Agnostic...
- sbrickner, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27@nreynolds
Let's see. The world "before religion" was pretty much cave-man days. Then came religion. It was a while before any one religion really became dominant in the world. There was Ancient Greece and then the Roman Republic, followed by the Roman Empire.
Eventually, Christianity "won out" as the dominant religion in Europe, and we get to really see what happens when religion takes charge. We call that the "Dark Ages".
When people finally started asking questions again, and the grip the church held on the world started slipping, we call that the "Enlightenment".
Religion has a lot to answer for. It's the evil twin of Mae West... when it's good, it's marginally good, but when it's bad it's disasterous. - deletedtheory, on 10/12/2007, -3/+24wow...
The video stated that the chance of a marriage ending in divorce for an atheist was 21%.
Not that atheists account for 21% of all divorces. It has nothing to do with the size of the atheist population. - clownguyx, on 10/12/2007, -5/+26That may be true, but we don't have a book calling people that aren't atheists "fools."
- MouseCircus, on 10/12/2007, -11/+32I hope some of you are ashamed of yourselves. This video was meant to INFORM people. It's made to show everyone that us Atheists aren't the devil worshippers a lot of other people make us out to be.
It's meant to show that there have been Atheists who have done important things in our world. It's not made to belittle anyone elses beliefs, and it certainly isn't a personal attack on anyone's intelligence. It's just an informative video. Nothing more. There shouldn't be an argument here. - TheKillDoctor, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21and bald is a hair color.
- raid517, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24"Yeah, if we were all athiests like Bertrand Russell, author of "Why I'm not a Christian" then we can all be old men having sex with underaged women and not have anyone telling us it's wrong."
I could point you to a thousand examples, both now and throughout history, of so called Christians having sex with 'little girls' and little boys too. That is the problem with you religious types - you think you have a monopoly on morality - but you don't. There are just as many - indeed far more self professed Christians (murderers, rapists, child molesters, thieves, adulterers, wife beaters, you name it) in prison in the USA than there ever could be atheists. Clearly being religious only *makes* you feel superior, when the reality is that you are every bit as fallible as anyone else. - Tsujigiri, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20Nice film. It reminded me of a recent episode of Morgan Spurlock's television show "30 Days". In it they sent an atheist to live with your average Bible Belt Christian family. I couldn't find a copy of it online, but it's worth seeing if you can find it. It's on FX.
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18The fact that atheists tend to be less criminal is interesting. I think that people who are atheist tend to be a bit more introspective about life. You have to be introspective to be an atheist in a society where everyone around you is either religious or non-practicing religious. This same sort of person is less likely to end up in prison.
If you say there is no god, then you must realize that you have responsibility for your actions, no god will forgive you for your crimes. Many people sadly commit crimes and think their god will forgive them later. - martoon, on 10/12/2007, -9/+24I believe it's foolish to believe it's foolish for someone not to believe in your god. :P
- smcavoy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20someone said it best when they sung, "***** religion".
- slainbyte, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15@dave830 says
"do your homework. There were more people murdered in the 20th century- by athiest based governments- that all the others put together. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot... heard of them? over 100 million executed?"
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Well, I did my homework. Seems totalitarianism is a common thread but not atheism.
"The claim that "Hitler was an atheist" is an often-presented but specious argument against the philosophical position of atheism. The argument, implicit or explicit, is that since Hitler was self-evidently an evil, horrible person, anyone else who shares his belief must also be an evil, horrible person, and that theism is the only legitimate moral choice.
There are two obvious flaws in this argument. The first is simply factual: the claim that Hitler was an atheist is at best controversial and at worst simply untrue. The second and more telling flaw is that simply because Hitler had a particular belief does not make any person who shares that belief into a Hitler. "
Actually the Nazis used christian doctrine to strengthen their propaganda.
In fact some view Nazism itself as a form or christian mysticism. Hence Himmler's great interest in tracking down religious artifacts like the "holy grail."
In fact even German military belt buckles said "Gott mit uns" or "God is with us"
Hitler also made prayer in school mandatory....
further study if you want...
http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/%22Hitler_was_an_Atheist%22
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_religion
http://www.adherents.com/people/ph/Adolf_Hitler.html - EochaidRiata, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
-- Gautama Siddharta (Buddha)
It seems to be the unwillingness among the religous to question dogma and tradition that leads to such tragedy. - dave830, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16that is ridiculous. simply ridiculous.
would you apply that logic to anything else? Something becomes true or false based on how I feel about it? The world was flat for all who subscribed to it?
Forget the religion/atheism debates, that line of thinking- and I hear it often- makes no sense. It's a cop out. - GreenOne, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17I've always believed religion was simply based upon fear; fear of the unknown; fear of the dark; fear of nature. Once we learn to look beyond our fears and begin to understand the nature of the world around us, we should no longer require supernatural explanations for things we simply don't understand.
Most religious people fear atheism and atheists, because our non-belief threatens a very core foundation of their lives. That fear can very easily become outright hostility at the drop of a hat.
Which is why living in America is a very...interesting...experience for an atheist. - Jugalator, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15"Whoever said that atheists never accomplished anything? Look at how many millions of people Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed."
Err... Hitler about atheism:
"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out".
This is an attributed quote. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15How the ***** christ does someone work up the nerve to label this as "possibly inaccurate"?
- Jacob, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18You realize hitler wasnt atheist don't you, he was christian.
- Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15The cool thing is to wrap yourself in the flag and shout about how God hates fags and liberals.
- mrASSMAN, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16..Religion sucks my balls?
- NinjAlt, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16Dont you have books to be burning somewhere?
- AnteChronos, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16"I don't believe in atheism."
And atheism doesn't believe in you. That's right, one of the core tenets of atheism is "There is no such person as cptpike". Bet you didn't know that, did you? Yep, it's right there on the Atheist List of Rules, right between "There is no such entity as God", and "Be sure to eat a small puppy for breakfast every day." - neptytune, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15I think the video is great. My only fear is the top listing of many atheists as professors will further aggravate conservatives to blame academic institutions for breeding grounds of godless individuals. I wish the accomplishments would be the priority and not the place of employment.
It's sad that Christians want people to respect their beliefs, yet they cannot respect other religions, atheists, or agnostics. I live in a strong born again Christian community, which discredits every word utter if you let on that you do not believe in god. There are strong exceptions to the stereotype, but I am talking about a majority. - cybernezumi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12> Japan (Imperial-Fascist) | 6,000,000 | 1936-1945
My history may be weak, but I'd say State Shintoism played a role in this one. One of the first things the US did after the war was to make the emperor renounce his godhood. - jerbaker, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Just remember folks, Atheists don't fly planes into buildings in the name of God, nor do they blow themselves up to be a martyr for God.
- sbrickner, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again." - Deuteronomy 13:6-11
Don't pretend it's all "love thy neighbor" in there. - DesireCampbell, on 10/12/2007, -6/+17@ clownguyx
" That may be true, but we don't have a book calling people that aren't atheists "fools." "
I do - it was my elementary school science textbook. - sbrickner, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19@rhinopig
"... half the wars is an exaggeration ..."
Check http://www.historyguy.com/new_and_recent_conflicts.html
More than half of the current conflicts in the world are over religion. Muslim vs Christian, Muslim vs Jew, Muslim vs Muslim, Christian vs Protestant. - gungaroo22, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15There isn't a certain "way to go." Everyone is entitled to their opinion, none are better than any others. Agnosticism isn't perfect at all. Just because you can't disprove it, doesn't mean you have to consider it a possibility. I know you cannot prove or disprove a higher power, but I can find no way of believing that any exist, thus I am not an agnostic.
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