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238 Comments
- AyaJulia, on 12/15/2008, -7/+94It never ceases to amaze me that the quest "The Art of Persuasion" has caused such turmoil. The guy who started all this must've really just glossed over the quest text for, you know, the entire 70+ levels before that. For just a few examples of the nasties present in this game, there's the Alliance striking out against Edwin VanCleef and his Defias band after they rebuilt Stormwind as we know it and they didn't feel like paying for their services. Or the Horde helping the Forsaken create a plague with the ultimate goal of genocide. Or going back in time and helping Prince Arthas "cleanse" a plagued town by slaying all of its residents before they turn to zombies.
There are all manner of uncomfortable situations of questionable morality in WoW. And you ALWAYS have the option to hit "Abandon Quest" or "Leave Group" if it really bothers you that much.
Yes, I am a WoW lore nerd, save your disparaging comments. I'll probably just say "Why yes, thank you" if they're true. ;) - antistupid, on 12/15/2008, -6/+74http://i35.tinypic.com/slp7hu.jpg
- inactive, on 12/15/2008, -2/+66Hell, I've been torturing in video games for years. From the countless crotch-shots I've racked up in Goldeneye, to my various creative kills in Spider-Man 2, including pile-driving a guy off the Empire State Building, and beating up on another guy as he was already falling to his death, I have mastered the art of causing unnecessary pain.
- zomgwaffles, on 12/15/2008, -0/+40"The Sims" is the the best torture game yet.
I dont remember doing much besides building walls around my sim and making him light the fireplace in turn catching the whole room on fire. That and just boxing them in with no lights in a basement and starving them for days while they piss on the floor crying . . . . - jrm125, on 12/15/2008, -0/+31Games should have anything the designers want, then let people decide whether or not to buy it.
- dafragsta, on 12/15/2008, -0/+281 Sim + 4 walls + 0 door + 0 toilet + fast forward button = hilarious torture.
- Flashypoo, on 12/15/2008, -2/+26It's really beginning to piss me off, gotta say it. The Horde is no more evil than the ***** Alliance.
- cougar3429, on 12/15/2008, -0/+22Chainsaws do not care if their victims are gay or straight.
- MCA2142, on 12/15/2008, -0/+21Dungeon Keeper 2. Torture done right.
- CK20XX, on 12/15/2008, -0/+21"Ocelot you fool, you did it again!"
"Sorry boss..." - Archcoder, on 12/15/2008, -3/+24Slaughtering thousands of soldiers and creatures? That's ok as long as there's a quest reward.
Torturing someone with a device which causes no physical harm? STOP THE PRESSES!!! - inactive, on 12/15/2008, -0/+15No, thats called Necrophilia.
- NaziHatinChimp, on 12/15/2008, -6/+20I think that a lot of people think Video Games are "edgy" because they have sex and violence. How about abortion? How bout having a video game character that openly hates gays or is gay? It's a shame that video games hasn't developed as art quite yet, despite some ground breaking games that came out this year.
- Airforcefalco, on 12/15/2008, -0/+13It isn't torture it is enhanced interrogation techniques.
- bluesparks, on 12/15/2008, -0/+13If you want to have the WoW nerd conversation, which is a good one to have, I'd like to chip in.
In all fairness, during the Culling of Stratholme, where Arthas is "mercy killing" civilians, you aren't killing civilians -yourself.- Just escorting him around while you kill zombies. Sure, it's no easier to condone, but let's make sure the examples used are accurate.
The Art of Persuasion is just a little stronger than many things you mentioned, including several Horde quests and the entire Defias Brotherhood 'campaign.' But to me, it really set the character of the Kirin Tor, the faction you work for as you do the torture, as hard-edged no-nonsense people. I don't agree with their methods, but this quest exposed their character as a group.
The difference between noble combat and amoral tactics comes to a head in the varied methods of the Knights of the Ebon Blade and Argent Crusade in Icecrown. The Ebon Blade constantly talks about how the Argent Crusade wouldn't do what's necessary to defeat Arthas because they'd insist on honorable combat. That entire conflict is much more enthralling than one little Borean Tundra quest. - Kohaxx, on 12/15/2008, -0/+12I just love the fact that no one ever addresses the concept in WoW that you and your character will literally do anything if it's got a reward.
Release a genocidal maniac death knight because he has a yellow exclamation point over his head? Check.
Kill thousands of the other faction so you can get a new pair of boots? Check.
Slaughter entire populations of animals for a new gun? Check
Slaughter all the poachers you would've worked with for new staff? Check
Slaughter all the animals again for a newer gun? Check.
Overthrow a local government with the intent of "cleansing them" and it turns out you were just helping the Scourge take them over? Check.
If any of the lore applied to your character you would be the most evil character in the Warcraft universe, you will literally do anything for more power if the option is available. - JPong01, on 12/15/2008, -1/+13The game is NOT for all ages. It is for people 13 and up. MMO's are big mean scary places that little kids should not go. Parents need to supervise what their children play and if they don't like something about what their kid just did in the game, explain to him/her why it is a bad thing and why they shouldn't be doing stuff like that.
It is not the game's job to babysit, it is only there as an entertainment medium. - TheMightyB, on 12/15/2008, -0/+11The Horde is evil?
- FredFredrickson, on 12/15/2008, -1/+12What is a shame is that you think video games need to include this sort of thing for them to become art. Painting didn't need to cover all subjects of human tragedy and loss before it was realized as an art form, and neither should games.
- WhiskeyLemur, on 06/30/2009, -0/+11That pretty much leaves out all major genres from FPS to RTS to RPG to action to fighting games and even racing games. Unless you play sports games Peggle and not much else.....?
- wdw25, on 12/15/2008, -1/+12Plus all the GTA games. I can't tell you how many times I've "played" with my victims. But I do think that certain games should incorporate torture. How sick would it be if you could chainsaw someone like in the beginning of Scarface in a GTA game. You have to cut them up but not kill them to get the info you want. If anyone here works for Rockstar that's what I want. More ways to create unnecessary violence.
- lavidalivadas, on 12/15/2008, -0/+10Questing in Stranglethorn on a PVP server is torture.
- Jeepinator, on 12/15/2008, -1/+11Does T-bagging count as torture even though they are already dead?
- ShutItDown, on 12/15/2008, -0/+9You should be able to Water-Board people in GTA.
- CoD4, on 12/15/2008, -0/+9more chainsaw you say?
consider it done in gta5 - BullHunter, on 12/15/2008, -4/+12It would certainly meet some resistance by non-gamers. I think there's enough torture in some games. They are torture just to play!
Maybe GW could have a Torture simulation game to train up his staff with. He seemed to think some torture should be allowed if it was a case of national security and getting information out of a detainee. Wasn't it the "near drowning" system they wanted to use? - Kohaxx, on 12/15/2008, -0/+8Humans are corrupt
Night Elves are isolationists and radicals
Gnomes are mad scientists
Dwarves are drunks who give a crap about anyone else
Draenei...ok well they're altruistic
Orcs have bloodthirsty tendencies
Trolls are (well the Darkspear are good guys, all the others are cannibals and superstitious crazies)
Undead couldn't care less about the other races (everytime one says something similar to concern about anyone it's shocking)
Blood Elves are uppity drug addicts
Taurens are happy hippies who just want to protect the environment and smoke the peace pipe.
So really, they're about the same, to say the Horde is the "evil" faction means you're a 12 year old who never played WCIII. - inactive, on 12/15/2008, -1/+9Remember the cerebral bore from Turok 2? That was fun.
- john2kx, on 12/15/2008, -0/+8Most games today are torture enough to play, thanks. We don't need more.
and iirc, MGS1 had a torture scenario, one of the less memorable scenes in the game. - ender7074, on 12/15/2008, -0/+8As a Warcraft nerd, I find another problem with the article. The writer referes to the horde as being evil. Funny how this is always the concept. The Horde, at the very least the Orcs, were slaves sent to make war. Once they threw off that oppressive state, they became passive and peaceful. What did the Alliance do? Threw them into concentration camps. The beginning of Warcraft 3 is Thrall escaping from the camps and freeing the Orcs. Even the Forsaken have this same type of situation.
I hate it when people that have no knowledge of the lore of Warcraft start making assumptions like Horde is evil or that people that play Horde are somehow less moral than someone who plays Alliance. Try some research next time. - angusm, on 12/15/2008, -0/+8I don't mind the torture, but I am still upset about those guys in dark suits who waited outside the dungeon for my character one day, threw a hood over his head and flew him on an unmarked griffin to an undisclosed location in the Borean Tundra.
- AyaJulia, on 12/15/2008, -0/+8This might not be deep, deep into the lore, but it's got a story. "These guys captured our mages. They got one of our leaders, too. Bring back a prisoner so we can find out where she's being held."
And the Forsaken plague I referenced isn't deep down, either. You can get the first of the quests at level SIX. "[Sylvanas] has challenged us to concoct a new plague, a plague deadlier than any ailment on Azeroth. This new disease will bring Arthas's Scourge Army to ruin."
And the Culling of Stratholme? All you have to do to experience that slaughter is walk into the instance. Or play WC3.
Pretty much the only dirty laundry you need to dig REALLY deep to find is the Alliance's. ;) - swrostmore, on 12/15/2008, -0/+7It's not just a moral argument, it's also a legal argument.
- staticneuron, on 12/15/2008, -0/+7Funny thing about that is that most flights of fancy include subjects of that nature just to be relatable. Other than Puzzle games and other E rated titles, most games have something to say about the comon issues us as human beings face.
- dafragsta, on 12/15/2008, -0/+7That one is too obvious. My method requires no stove. I prefer my Sims to die in a puddles and piles of their own excrement, so I might give them a fridge.
- inactive, on 12/15/2008, -0/+7my thumb still hurts from that.
- captainanndor, on 12/15/2008, -0/+7If you're trying to escape all those things, a game with the word 'war' right in the title is probably a poor choice.
- da233, on 12/15/2008, -0/+7So did anyone else keep on shocking the npc even after the interrogation finished?
- veriix, on 12/15/2008, -0/+7You'll have to be more specific.
- kebinusan, on 12/15/2008, -0/+7Nobody remembers dungeon keeper?
- Flashypoo, on 12/15/2008, -0/+6No?
- inactive, on 12/15/2008, -0/+6Best weapon of any videogame, ever. It's so underrated. You tore people's spines out. With a gun. And a fountain fo blood came out of them in a sloppy, ketchupy arch. And then their skulls exploded, since all of the previous torture clearly wasn't enough.
- Rudegar, on 12/15/2008, -0/+6the 1 hour i played sims 1 a fire got started too bad for the man and kids i had sold the stairs :P
- AyaJulia, on 12/15/2008, -0/+6Ah, shoot, Icecrown is the only zone I haven't started on... don't need anything from Ebon Blade rep really. I should do it sometime.
Regarding Strat, though... I still think the concept of going back in time to stop the infinite dragonflight from murdering Arthas before he became the Lich King and killed so many is morally questionable, even if you aren't killing innocents yourself. I wondered the same about why we were helping Medivh. The bronze look like they have a one-track single-minded stop-at-nothing desire to kill the infinite despite the good things that might come about from their actions, so I'd really like something to come out of the whole story showing that we did the right thing. It feels much more questionable to me than right-clicking a pain needle in my bags once or twice. :P
And I still don't think one incident of torture come anywhere CLOSE to the Forsaken's ambitions of genocide. It might "feel" different, but that's only because you help them create their plague in such small ways, so many times, over such a long period of time. It's far more evil. - potsthedog, on 12/15/2008, -0/+6In what way are the alliance narratively "good"? Maore "civilized"? sure. More relatable? granted. Good? No way. The whole "thing" with warcraft races is that they're all protagonists - each has it's own motivations, goals, and morality. The Alliance are frequently amoral, often to degrees that I find far more uncomfortable than the horde. That might be because I relate to the plight of the alliance (after all, 'm a human in real life, not an orc), but it means I would probably rate The Alliance (esp. the human contingent) as lower on the morality scale than the orcs. You'd be hard pressed to argue that the Blood Elves are "inherently good" just as you'd be hard pressed to call the Tauren "inherently evil" - but each faction has a range of moralities dispayed by it's contingent members, putting them on equal footing - and that's the point. Neither side is good or evil because they want you to pick one and identify their ideology as "the good one" by yourself. It makes your race a more personal thing in the game, and invests you more deeply in your faction.
Also, why did no one care when it came to light (Ha!) that the blood elves were enslaving a sha'tar in the basement of their city and bleeding it of its arcane energy to feed their magic addiction? what part of that is ok? - daedalous, on 12/15/2008, -1/+7NINE?!
- Snokage, on 12/15/2008, -0/+6AnyiHeroV i suggest you buy a Wii.
- r0g3r, on 12/15/2008, -0/+5"Even John McCain signed a bogus confession when tortured by the Viet Cong."
But he refused to put it on tape verbally, and was beaten as a result....Just so we don't get the wrong impression of Mr McCain. I voted for Obama this time, but I have an extremely high respect for McCain's service, and think this tidbit should be included here for completeness. - AyaJulia, on 12/15/2008, -0/+5Meh, it comes from the old, old days when the Orcs were slaves to the Burning Legion and ACTUALLY evil (Warcraft 1 and 2). They weren't in control of their actions, and now that they're free, it's just a cycle of hate. "That Orc killed my father!" "That human killed my mother!" Since the humans were minding their own business when they got attacked (and we're human in real life, not orcs) they got branded the good guys. Everyone is on an even playing field these days. The Alliance betrayed the Blood Elves, for example, and left them with the Horde as the only place they could turn. Thrall is one of the noblest characters in the game anymore, so the Horde-is-evil thing is just a misconception.
...except the Forsaken, really. They're emotionless and bent on revenge for being turned undead. Can't say I blame them, I even play a couple. :) But not even the rest of the Horde trusts them.
Beyond Arthas, I can't think of any major bad guys that came out of the Alliance... maybe Illidan, but he's been imprisoned and exiled a few times by his own people, so does he count? -
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