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Love, Machiavelli Style

doubleviking.com — Love isn ’t truth; love is lies, passive-aggression, manipulation, cheating, and avoidance of the truth. And in this slippery, amoral world of sex and control, who better to help us wade our way through the BS than Niccolo Machiavelli, author of "The Prince"? Nobody, that’s who.

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  • HoraceQS, on 11/10/2007, -19/+10Machiavelli was the most realistic philosopher ever.
    • caferrell, on 11/09/2007, -2/+11Actually if you read his comments on Livy's Histories you will see that he was a real idealist. His goal was to unite Italy and then see a return of Roman Republican government. The Prince was written to instruct the Borgias how to rule in order to unite the peninsula, so that Italy could then go back to being a free Republic 1600 years after the Grachii were murdered.
      Machiavelli is the most misunderstood writer in history.
      • jmpeagle, on 11/13/2007, -1/+9too bad the Italian city-states never learned to nationalize an army and instead relied on mercenaries
        • caferrell, on 11/09/2007, -0/+2The Republic of Florence had a citizen army and Machiaveli was the foreign minster and conducted the troops in at least one battle. But the was the exception. A thorough reading of Machiaveli is quite instructive
    • macweirdo42, on 11/13/2007, -1/+10That reminds me of a study I read about suggesting that'll people suffering from depression have a much more realistic outlook on life than people who aren't. Actually, it was a very depressing study.
    • XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, on 11/10/2007, -8/+7Are you ***** kidding? He believed that the success of a civilization depended on a wise and cruel tyrant. Machiavelli believed that the politician should manipulate people and use any means to gain power. He did not advocate amoral behavior but believed that political action cannot be governed by moral considerations. Yep, great philosophy. Get your way to the top and rule by being an *****.
      • Villhelm47, on 11/10/2007, -1/+5I don't think he was commenting on the morality of his philosophies or how "great" they are.
      • Jibberwalk, on 11/09/2007, -0/+7He believed that you can acquire differing degrees of political success through different personality types. The Founder is the brutal and charismatic leader who can inspire nations to arise from nothing. It's not that he is purposely manipulating, it's simply that the outcome of his actions seem like manipulation was a must. In the Prince, we get Nico telling us the story of Brutus killing his sons for the Republic... that was amazing virtu that he respected.

        Maca doesn't believe that a politician should manipulate people to gain power... it's simply that that is the way it has become. He brought about rationality and empiricism. You have to take everything Maca says with a grain of salt. Nietchze realized the error of Nico... he focused too much on the grandeur of the past and not on the potential of the future.

        Nico said the reason Italy was no longer Rome was because we didn't have selfless leaders like Brutus. He said today we have Foxes, not Founders. Foxes not being the politicians that inspire nations, but the ones instead who set up devious alliances for their own self gain. Foxes aren't Politics in the truest sense of the word. Politics are the people of Callipolis, or of any Greek polis. Nico felt politics of the day were rife with err'r. Foxes were dangerous to a nation, only out for the best of them self (like Richard III, or Nico himself in The Discourses).

        So it's not that Maca felt you got to the top by being a wise, cruel *****... instead you get to the top (founding) by being virtuous, selfless, and L'etat. He was a man obsessed with the past and wanted a return to it... but realized to accomplish anything in the world he lived, you had to be a Fox -- despite it going against what he wanted -- the Great Legions of Rome to march again.
        • troye, on 11/12/2007, -0/+5Wow, I like to see this, a smart digger that can say some smart sh!t. You have educated me today.
      • XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, on 11/10/2007, -6/+2Right, so acting like an ***** to gain and exercise power is realistic? You're acting like you want to be taken advantage of.
  • Sham1969, on 11/10/2007, -14/+8This is good stuff.
  • nykat, on 11/10/2007, -13/+5I agree. Interesting content.
    • troye, on 11/10/2007, -4/+2I bet it's a bunch of chicks that are digging you down, or guys who think they're chicks.
  • Heterochromia, on 11/14/2007, -6/+17You know Digg is male-dominated when... (stuff like this gets big approval).

    But I'm all for it :D
  • Happy_Phantom, on 11/09/2007, -5/+7Blocked by Websense
  • diizy, on 11/14/2007, -4/+40This sounds like how to NOT get laid.
    • Lindane, on 11/12/2007, -2/+6What is the sound of one hand fapping?
      • bigj480, on 11/09/2007, -0/+6If a guy faps in his room and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
    • inertic, on 11/12/2007, -2/+3Everyone upvoting diizy never had a gf just to have fun with. Although for a longterm relationship, this is BAD advice.
      • chaosium, on 11/12/2007, -0/+4"Everyone upvoting diizy never had a gf just to have fun with"

        No, we just never needed PUA ***** to get there and get out.
    • zspeed78, on 11/10/2007, -0/+6Its a combination of 'busy guy interested in the cool ***** he has going on' and 'and he paid a little attention to me' that makes girls like you. I cant call myself an expert, but I really did give 'getting girls' some thought and practice in college and I have to agree most of whats on that site is right in a way.. you need to have something to offer her (the busy guy with cool ***** going on) as well as some think she does actually like about you. Being good looking, nice, and available RARELY work.
      • exoendo, on 11/13/2007, -0/+7You need to have skills. You know, like nunchuku skills, bow hunting skills, computer hacking skills... Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills.
  • sundancekid503, on 11/09/2007, -7/+14Innacurate... I don't think 2pac would have agreed with half this *****.
    • XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, on 11/10/2007, -9/+1Wow, you don't even know who Machiavelli is. RTFA.
      • ChromaVita, on 11/13/2007, -2/+7I believe it was a joke. In other news Biggie>Tupac.
    • slimer525, on 11/12/2007, -0/+6I think this was a joke.. I laughed at least. lol.
  • Thinkofme, on 11/10/2007, -10/+9Read the books of robert greene, 48 laws of power and the art of seduction they are totally inspired by machiavelli and robert himself admits it.
    • Villhelm47, on 11/09/2007, -0/+3Both of which are worthwhile reads, taking that into mind, although I did prefer the former purely because of the subject matter.
    • Matt2k, on 11/12/2007, -2/+5You're getting modded down because these books are powerful knowledge, dark, forbidden and coveted. Secreted away from the common man. Do not bring them up again in public.

      And yes, those books ***** rule.
      • chaosium, on 11/09/2007, -0/+3Hahahahaahhaahahha internet speed seduction champions in this thread.
  • tucsonsun13, on 11/10/2007, -12/+4I think it's truly impossible to have an exciting, fulfilling relationship with a girl for a long period of time.
    • dinostabOMG, on 11/09/2007, -3/+6Sorry to hear that :/ Good luck.
    • AriaStar, on 11/13/2007, -1/+16That's because you have been conditioned to always trade up. As soon as something that looks like it could be better comes along, get rid of the tried and true, what works, and hope that the trade is a little bit better than the last. You aren't focusing on the good in front of you, and that's preventing you from being able to truly appreciate the girl you are with at any given time.
    • XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, on 11/11/2007, -1/+14Yeah, quit trying to re-assure yourself since you've never even touched a girl.
      • cmpshotty, on 11/09/2007, -0/+8Not true. Sometimes they fall asleep and he's able to sneak a sniff.
    • Lindane, on 11/11/2007, -5/+4I hate when chicks have long periods.
    • ncurses, on 11/11/2007, -2/+6HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAA
    • thailand1972, on 11/11/2007, -3/+6I hear this type of comment from some feminists about men. Sorry to hear you're on that kind of downer too.
  • trghpy, on 11/09/2007, -3/+1dugg for the honey search link...
  • navitatl, on 11/09/2007, -3/+7Is this legit advice? I don't know who to believe anymore.
    • silverchrysalis, on 11/09/2007, -0/+11not really. maybe for short-term relationships, but anything long-term you need to truly throw your soul into it. which means not holding nice things back or being a selfish ass.
      • zspeed78, on 11/09/2007, -1/+4Im not so sure. A lot of people put their heart and soul into marriages or multi-year relationships to find their partner off with a coworker or fling on the flight to nyc.
        • chaosium, on 11/09/2007, -0/+4These people generally have terrible taste in their others, or poor judgement towards what should be a serious decision. You don't go for the first one, you go for the right one.
    • Lindane, on 11/12/2007, -4/+2These sound like the words of the typical AFC who is approaching an HB+ before learning how to kino and use his PUA skillz.
      • paulbyrnes, on 11/12/2007, -0/+5That sounds like the words of an illiterate *****.

        I love that swearing is totally acceptable, if not encouraged, on Digg.
      • tyywebb, on 11/09/2007, -0/+3Wot?
    • bemenaker, on 11/09/2007, -0/+3In dating, yes, in a LTR, no. :)
  • angrytito, on 11/09/2007, -0/+7When did things become so damn complicated? Kids these days...
    • chaosium, on 11/09/2007, -0/+4This is what happens when MMO grinders *try* to get laid.
    • Tyrghast, on 11/13/2007, -0/+7can't we just go back to the old days when kidnapping a woman made her yours for life?
  • Birdoftruth, on 11/13/2007, -2/+22Why go through all this ***** to live with a bitch the rest of your life when you can act like who you really are and end up someone who actually cares more about you than herself (they are out there, don't live on digg or askmen.com all your life)
    • jobney76, on 11/10/2007, -3/+3I agree with you about the benefit of finding someone who is a good match who likes you for you. I've found that myself and I married her. But... Most people will never find that perfect match and could do better being more of an ass. Nice guys do finish last. I had no luck picking up women pretending to be overly nice. It's not who I am even though I would describe myself as a nice guy. I have an inner sarcastic jerk who keeps the nice guy in check. Once I gave up and ignored women focusing on other interest did I start to notice that they started hitting on me. I learned that the ones that hit on you have already made up their minds. After that all you have to do is ride the wave of indifference as far as you want to go. My wife and I are a perfect match as we both went in as ourselves with all our flaws out in the open. She loves me for the nice jerk that I am.
      • mcbeezle, on 11/09/2007, -0/+3Nice guys don't finish last. They finish somewhere in the middle. Maybe near the front.
    • alaekiefer, on 11/12/2007, -4/+2Because those women don't exist.
      • Iconoclast25, on 11/12/2007, -0/+2They do, but are mighty thin on the ground in the US.
  • AriaStar, on 11/13/2007, -2/+15"..and relationships become progressively less emotional as the participants try to reveal less and less to one another in the attempt to avoid "drama" of any sort..."

    There's so much truth in that line right there. It seems like the wrong thing these days to open up. There's this man I love and was dating for almost a year and I only found out his ex-wife's name a couple weeks ago when I saw her picture and name on Facebook. He didn't want to go into anything because it is like a "slippery slope," and would just open a pandora's box of drama.

    So relationships are becoming superficial, truly only about sex (don't ask, "What's wrong with that?" because the answer is A LOT), and it seems people are forgetting how to love.
    • cmpshotty, on 11/12/2007, -1/+4Why do you care what his ex-wife's name was? I'm really curious what the draw to knowing about a person's past relationships and sexual escapades is. Sometimes ***** moments are best left in the past.
      • Villhelm47, on 11/09/2007, -0/+4If it was something major, such as a marriage, it was a part of your loved one's life and contributes to who they are as a person now. After getting out of an emotionally abusive relationship, the last thing I wanted to do was talk about it, but it influences why I act the way sometimes. Because of that, my girlfriend deserves to know about it, even if it did cause some initial "drama" when I first told her.
      • AriaStar, on 11/09/2007, -0/+3Considering that they're still friends, it's not something completely in the past. And the past is what is used to paint the future. What happened between him and his ex-wife hurt him and influences how he acts to this day. If your girlfriend was married, wouldn't you like to have some idea of her background to know a bit about what you're getting into now?
    • bukiyou, on 11/09/2007, -0/+0I totally agree with you on that.

      Well, as people place more emphasis on control, immediacy and image, relation dynamics sort of shift to reflect that trend. It's not a bad attitude to have for shallow relationships, but it just doesn't work for anything deeper.

      ^^; it's always been an issue of finding the right person anyways, but maybe it has gotten a lot harder to do lately.
  • XXXXXXXXXXXXXX, on 11/09/2007, -4/+15Does anyone realize that there is no specific formula, especially this assholish way, to hook up with girls? If you're following the philosophy of a 16th century guy who advocated cruel politics, then you're not doing it right.
    • chaosium, on 11/09/2007, -0/+2Unless you're up on the S&M. But still, there are definitely better writers for that.
  • TalkingBanana, on 11/09/2007, -3/+62pac is still alive.
  • baalzebub, on 11/09/2007, -4/+2Love is a rose but you better not pick it, only grows when its on the vine, hand full of thorns and you know you've missed it, lose your love when you say the word "mine"...
  • Lindane, on 11/10/2007, -7/+0Lord Xenu was mean! Has anyone read about that stuff?!?! I'm going to buy a bronze statue of L. Ron Hubbard's ass and lick its butthole every morning before starting my day. Repent repent!!!
  • Hetman, on 11/09/2007, -1/+6passive-aggression. That is what makes the world go round.
  • roseap, on 11/09/2007, -0/+2Yankee swap is like Machiavelli meets Christmas
  • rotarychainsaw, on 11/09/2007, -2/+4Almost makes me glad I haven't had a date in a few years. Almost.... :(
    • tyywebb, on 11/09/2007, -0/+2Don't feel too bad, man. I basically met my dream girl (Jennifer Conelly look-alike, pre-med) a couple weeks ago and she got stolen away by the French guy that lives next door. Women create absolutely nothing but misery in the long run...
  • ZenMojo, on 11/10/2007, -6/+4This is actually true and it disgusts me. Interestingly enough, women will assume you're an ass if you're good-looking and keep your mouth shut and don't do ANYTHING AT ALL. It's kind of retarded that the whole "good-looking + ass = attractive" goes in reverse to "attractive = good-looking + ????" and women immediately assume that the mystery portion is ass by default if they're attracted. This can also sometimes work against you if a woman distrusts men...if you keep your mouth shut and you're good-looking she'll hate you for it.
  • ncurses, on 11/14/2007, -2/+25I take my dating advice from digg.com
  • thailand1972, on 11/09/2007, -1/+5These are the politics you need to use when you've picked the wrong woman as your partner/wife.
    • zspeed78, on 11/09/2007, -2/+3Well said.. there probably ARE girls you dont need to do this on. The other 99%, this ***** will work.
      • chaosium, on 11/09/2007, -0/+2Maybe the 99% stupid enough to date you.
  • Hetman, on 11/09/2007, -1/+3"I feed off confusion because I think it gives you more power over a person" He is really not a Machiavellian he believes nietzsche we all seek power in one form or another.
  • kurejibitch, on 11/09/2007, -3/+1If you want to know love, read or youtube up some Leo Buscaglia. I can't count the number of times I have been stopped short of sabotaging my own possibilities just by skimming a chapter or watching a couple minutes of one of his speeches. Phenomenal man. It's too bad there aren't more eccentrics like him.
  • Neorio, on 11/09/2007, -1/+3Men should act like whores to women.
  • cnot3, on 11/09/2007, -0/+2"Among the other evils which being disarmed brings, it causes you to be dispised." Always bring a condom.
    • cmpshotty, on 11/09/2007, -0/+4And an ample supply of Aqua Dots too.
  • dupswapdrop, on 11/09/2007, -1/+4If it's love it's not about you, it's about them.
  • zspeed78, on 11/12/2007, -2/+5To the few above that asked if this is really what it takes:
    I believe its mostly a combination of 'busy guy interested in the cool ***** he has going on' and 'and he paid a little attention to me' that makes girls like you. I cant call myself an expert, but I really did give 'getting girls' some thought and practice in college and I have to agree most of whats on that site is right in a way.. you need to have something to offer her (the busy guy with cool ***** going on) as well as some think she does actually like about you. Being good looking, nice, and available RARELY work.
    • retardrus, on 11/12/2007, -1/+5Spot on. Just telling her how much you like her, even showing her how much you like her in extravagant and novel ways doesn't seem to mean *****. At least in my experience real nice guys have a bitch of a time. You have to game it, wish it wasn't the case but at least in the beginning you can't be fawning. Either they think we're being too sincere to be true or just creepy I don't know, but it pays to be able to play the too good for you card, sad but true
  • there, on 11/09/2007, -2/+6 The most important attribute of any successful relationship is remembering to everyday treat the other person with respect. Woman that would respond to these sorts of schoolgirl psyche games are usually Prozac basket cases that will never understand happiness.
    • absurdist, on 11/09/2007, -3/+2You've never been involved with a woman, have you?
      • there, on 11/09/2007, -0/+2 There are quite a few FUed up women out there that get their relationship advice from Cosmo or 11teen magazine quacks.This reflects in todays the very high divorce rate. In fact...my own mother was emotionally and physically abused.

        Here is sincere advice based on experience not a priori speculation.

        I can count in one hand how many times I've had a serious fight with my wife over the years. Our relationship is very loving, free of excessive sarcasm, and built on mutual respect. Arguments and misunderstandings do occasionally happen and I make allowances for them by consciously prioritizing my tolerance and patience for my loved ones.

        Having said that....any woman that gets a " thrill" out of neglect or abuse I find repulsive on many levels....and any woman that was repeatedly disrespectful to me would be shown the door in short order.
  • NecroSexy, on 11/09/2007, -0/+2"Love is the state in which man sees things most decidedly as they are not. The force of illusion reaches its highest here, and so does the capacity for sweetening, for transfiguring. When a man is in love he endures more than at any other time; he submits to anything." - Dionysus
    • Neorio, on 11/09/2007, -1/+1Love is the illusion that one woman differs from another.
  • schrutefan, on 11/09/2007, -3/+7"Starting arguments immediately puts your significant other on the defensive, giving you an advantage which, if played correctly, you can ride all the way to a victory without ever giving her a chance to prepare or figure out what the hell is going on."

    Dugg.
  • MerryMortician, on 11/09/2007, -0/+3If you want to be happy for the rest of your life.. make an ugly woman your wife.
  • magamiako, on 11/09/2007, -3/+6This website is so sadly true it's sickening. I've done quite a bit of dating these days and continue to find myself in these situations. I can play off the ***** at first but at some point I cave in because I just don't feel like putting up with myself during an extended period of time--and then those relationships start to fail.

    As soon as you admit to the girl that you like her, she's ready to move on. It's happened to me about 5 times so far in the past couple of years. It's pretty disgusting.

    It's all one big game. The more of an ***** you are, the more you will get.

    At any rate, it does make me despise this country and does make me want to move out, but after chatting with a couple of women in other countries it doesn't seem like they value similar ideals.

    There's always going to Asia and meeting a poor asian chick I guess and teaching her English and giving her a better life.......seems to be about the best way to go these days....
    • Neorio, on 11/10/2007, -3/+2Women treat men like whores, and when you don't act like one (by telling her you love her) the fantasy is ruined for her, and she looks to someone else.
      As long as you keep acting like a whore - you'll get laid a lot without the headaches.
    • toastjam, on 11/09/2007, -0/+1it does or doesn't seem like they value similar ideals?
    • thailand1972, on 11/12/2007, -0/+4There are bad women in every country, but generally speaking, your chances are better in Asia (specifically, SE Asia in my experience) than in the west if you want to find a wife/partner who isn't going to give you grief and you'll get a good chance of the quiet life rather than a roller coaster ride. I've probably invoked the wrath of any feminist now, but guys don't need to be "challenged" by a demanding partner, they need downtime with them and some peace and quiet. Life's already hard without your partner making it worse.
  • sud0n1m, on 11/13/2007, -0/+11I no longer want a women who this type of stuff works on. Sure, relationships have to be interesting. Who has the energy for this push-pull power struggle that keeps both of you in a constant state of mind-*****. If you start down that path, you have to maintain it.
  • Neorio, on 11/10/2007, -2/+3Women treat men like whores at best and unpaid male-escorts at worst.
    With women, we just aren't seen as friends or human beings.

    No I'm not bitter. Being a whore is fun!
  • delmar14, on 11/09/2007, -2/+3Actually, people who study human relationships would tell you that this stuff is true. Sociopaths can usually get any woman they want because they are so ***** manipulative. If you're looking to get the upper hand in a relationship, this advice is for you. If, on the other hand, you really believe in true love, then do things your way and don't blame Machiavelli when you find the love of your life banging a degenerate assclown...
  • askjoe, on 11/10/2007, -2/+4I'm a big fan of Machiavellian principles.....this story is pretty much spot on when it comes to relationships.
  • slowgherk, on 11/13/2007, -0/+7Great article....but i have to call b.s. on this one point: "the aggregate of his positive actions will balance out the inexorable, significant, and necessary mistakes and insensitivities which will crop up en masse in any healthy relationship. "

    Its in people's nature to remember the negatives. It's like the old joke, "I've given away millions of dollars to charity, am i known as a philanthropist? No. I've saved a child from drowning, am i known as a hero? No. But I've f***** one sheep...."

    You get the idea :-)
    • jamie06260, on 11/12/2007, -0/+4I believe what you say but only to an extent. I know so many girls who are dating complete assholes, and I remember all the horrible things the guys have done to them, but all they can seem to remember are the wonderful things that happened, like "oh he texted me!"

      -_-
  • MacLiberal, on 11/09/2007, -3/+4People have a problem with this because they believe that there is such a thing called "Love." There is no such thing as "Love". There is only the evolutionary biological urge to have sex to ultimately continue the race, nothing more.
    • toastjam, on 11/09/2007, -0/+3That's lust you are thinking of.

      "Love" is what makes people stay together to raise the offspring of that sex. They may both just be evolutionary forces, but they're not the same.
  • heyiquit, on 11/09/2007, -2/+1duggduggityduggem
  • felidaeus, on 11/09/2007, -2/+3"She said the following:"

    "Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a deceiver will never lack victims for his deception"

    There's your problem, you're being decieved by men into thinking they are women, of COURSE you have relationship issues.
  • jennyroyer, on 11/09/2007, -1/+1If it's love it's not about you, it's about them.
  • SeraphIXI, on 11/09/2007, -0/+0In my experiences in long relationships with women, this seems to be right on.. or maybe I'm just "a selfish, evil shell of a human being." :/
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  • Iconoclast25, on 11/12/2007, -0/+2Sadly, the observations in this article seem to reflect the behaviors of a huge number of American women. As a man, I must ask why be miserable, why be something you aren't in order to achieve a relationship in which you will need to *maintain* such a facade?

    Every guy I know who's married an Asian gal is happy as a clam, in a stable relationship. And no, it is not a dominant thing. These women may be reserved, but they are nobody's throw rugs. Another alternative are the women of the former Soviet Union: lovely, smart, educated, talented - and don't think for a second they are not "strong!" - they value family over all else. Check out the divorce rates for these marriages and compare them for those with American women. BIG difference . . . and much of it due to the sort of issues discussed in this article.

    I don't dislike American women, but I sure hate how the feminist agenda has warped so many of them. From my perspective, "feminism" is simply the female version of misogyny.
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