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139 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+184Forget being overweight, alcoholic, smoking, car crashes, etc. - the single largest threat to people in this day and age is debt. We want to own everything, and pay for it all later. Some simple economics tells you that is a recipe for disaster right there - not to mention we are doing it in an era where the dollar is becoming less and less valuable. Buy a car, drive it off the lot and wham!, it looses 25% of it's value that instant. Buy a $300 titanium golf club, hit a single ball with it, and it's worth $125 or so.
We put our priority in the wrong places - how many people do you know that are crushed by their mortgage, have two or three cars in the driveway that they are still paying for, talk about shopping like it's a sport - then complain how much their kid is going to cost them when he/she is old enough to go to school? It's a sad state that we are in. - Cglass, on 10/12/2007, -6/+57Prostitution seems so much easier, sigh
- YumYumKittyLoaf, on 10/12/2007, -2/+44My mom is starting to fall into Debt and taking us with her. My brother and I have to move out, and we're not ready at all (he's 21 and i'm 18 and maybe 5000 dollars collectively between us). Both of us don't have full time jobs (NW ohio has almost no jobs except for very experienced people or healthcare) and all and we're both trying to go to college. Not to mention my mom has Rhumitory Arthritis, so she can't do ***** half the time. It sucks a lot for us right now. I'll have to remeber this in case anything happens before I get my inheritence... But i don't even have a car so I won't know how that'll work with living in a car!
I wonder, did she use a PO box to get her bills and such? - Cal241, on 10/12/2007, -1/+38This whole website is awesome. Here's her take on owning a McMansion:
http://www.violentacres.com/archives/35/mcmansions-are-for-mcidiots - easyone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+35God damn it >_
- parker, on 10/12/2007, -5/+38very true, but it can be a bit more complicated than that.
as inflation goes up interest rates often follow, making it more expensive to be in debt yet again. - easyone, on 10/12/2007, -3/+33*Estimates*
20,000 in debt. 10$/hour at jobs.
7am-2am = 19 hours. 19 hours * 10 dollars= $190/day
$190 * 5= $950/week
$950 * 4 weeks = $3800
20,000/3800 = 5.3 months.
/Insomnia FTW/ - headzoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+30As a way to get yourself out of debt, if you're in a ***** load of debt, it seems like a viable option (unless you have kids). The problem is a lot of people don't care if they are in debt. Many are simply addicted to owning everything they see, and would rather die before giving all that up.
- mylicon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+30Forgot to lop off 25% as your donation to the govt unless its under the table pay.
- JEmerson, on 10/12/2007, -16/+41Debt, or overwork? I've got student loans up the wazoo, and will be in debt for about ten years. And, I don't much care. I'd rather have time to spend with friends, family, and just plain opportunity to kick back and relax than to have that interest taken care of.
- l0ne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+25And the gym bill. :)
- codyman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24Question is, how long did she have to do that crazy schedule for?
If it was only for a few months, I could see it as doable.. but if longer than that, than ouch. - n0sferatu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+23You also forgot to add whatever amount she made for selling her stuff.
- Paroparo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+24And whatever she did on the weekends.
- darkfish, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25@Jack000
Hey I'm glad you're good with money. But don't dis all people who get in debt. Debt's a bitch but it's not always self inflicted. All that needs to happen is for you to get seriously sick, as in extended-hospital-stay sick, and watch how fast your health insurer will weasel their way out of paying. Oh and your job is gone 'cause you've been out so long. Then there's the rent/mortgage/food.
Nothing like suddenly being faced with a debt of $80K or more, and watch what happens to your credit if you refuse or can't pay. FWIW, I didn't dig you down - I figured you are still young and inexperienced. - anachronaut, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21There's absolutely nothing wrong with credit cards... as long as you have a no-fee card and zero out the balance _every single month_ to avoid paying any interest (basically using it as a debit card that you pay once per month instead of with every transaction).
If you can do that for a few years, even with a low limit "starter" credit card, you'll have awesome credit when it comes time to buy your house -- much, MUCH better credit than if you waited until you're actually ready to take out that big loan.
At least, that's been my experience. - dagonweb, on 10/12/2007, -11/+32I'd be dead. Thank god I live in the netherlands where we have a wellfare state. When I don't sleep a solid 8 hours the shadow pry loose from the corners of my vision and crawl up towards me. If I'd have to endure that I'd be literally dead in a month.
I though the US was a civilized country. After reading this I readjust back to horrible social darwinist jungle. Worst is the americans seem to wallow in this, living in the illusion that even *they* can make it and become rich, winners in the american dream.
Well those days are over. More than 50% of americans will be stuck at the level of subsistence this girl described in her eloquent article, for the rest of their brief miserably lives. And Paris Hilton still votes for her Bush.
And the turd world is substantially worse. - knickerbocker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+20jack000,
"personally I don't see how people get in debt."
Evidently.
"Just don't buy more when you have no money left. It's kind of ridiculous to get a loan at something like 20% interest just to buy that shiny new toy."
Absolutely. Agreed. But as darkfish pointed out, life is seldom so accommodating as to not throw spanners into your life's work. Even in Canada where public health ensures that we don't have to worry about being personally bankrupted by a medical emergency, there's plenty of other non-life-threatening issues that will strip your savings in a New York minute. My favourite (and one that I'm only too personally familiar with) is caring of an Alzheimer's-addled parent. You would be astonished at the costs of maintaining a dementia sufferer at a private facility of no particular note. Be prepared for that astounding roar you hear to be the wildfire tearing through your parent's, your siblings and your own savings. This may sound harsh but should you ever be on the caring side of that equation, hope that longevity is not a family trait. Either that or pray for a visit from some quickly-killing disease like c.difficile.
I expect in the decades to come, we'll be seeing plenty of boomers' families run-through in this fashion and Alzheimer's-addled boomers wandering the streets because their families couldn't afford to keep them in treatment.
"I think student debt is very much avoidable."
Provided you don't aspire to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer or any other post-secondary occupation that requires extensive, expensive education. I'm just a television editor and managed to do avoid post-secondary debt. Hell, I could've saved another 10 Grand by not going to college and earned maybe another 100 Grand in income had I known then that I actually knew more about television production than my professors. C'est la vie! That said, not everybody has the family financial wherewithal to pull even that off. Not everyone's family is rich or even middle class. Then what?
Oh that real life were as straightforward as you present. Money not spent on a useful post-secondary education is a fool's economy. How you define "useful" is a flexible personal construct but the long-term return on education should more than justify the short-term outlay and financing. - UtopianComplex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+20she probably worked more than 5 days a week
- Genthree, on 10/12/2007, -7/+26She could use a new web designer though...
- shihka, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21She is a true hero for the American people. I wish there are more of us like her. Now a days we have an average national savings of negative percentage.
To make a comparison, China has a saving rate around 50%.
I worry about US's future. - djenryte, on 10/12/2007, -0/+19I think she mentioned she subletted, so she could have still received mail at her old address, even though someone else lived there.
- Baddox, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21So she pulled what, four, maybe four and a half hours of sleep a night? That's doable, I suppose, but I prefer at least 5 hours a night.
- arkitect, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23It is a choice to live like that in most cases. Some people make bad choices and suffer the consequences. The great thing about America is that you do have a choice. I find it uncivilized that any country would take from the successful people to give to the people that more than likely do not deserve it. That does not sound like a winning formula to me.
- Tons0fun, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16Pretty good site, ran across it a few days ago though so not to quick on the uptake. More relevant though is that she must have a lot of willpower and integrity.
- l0ne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16The problem is, how do you judge the deserving? By how much money they have?
You can go rob a bank full of diamonds and come back. You're rich now. Except you didn't do it within the rules.
Or, we can talk about getting rich within the rules. Mind you: the girl above is an exception and even then she didn't move up the "social ladder" when she paid off her debt (although she lives much better now). If you are poor you have less chances to become rich; you can't afford college, you're going to die from diseases that are avoided by people with better housing (and I don't really mean just hygiene; living in dangerous areas, for example near a chemical plant, is way cheaper than living in a place where the dangers of a chemical plant do not exist). A well-designed, "utopian" welfare state should remove or alleviate as much as possible from the differences, punishing those who abuse it but at the same time providing a foundation for those who really need it to increase their social standing and quality of life.
(And anyway, getting in debt in the first place is not a good thing for a single, private citizen who does not plan its repaying in advance.) - nerditup, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20She says that everything that isn't in use is a waste of money and is the same as setting fire to the exact amount of money you paid. I don't think she has very much sense in saying that because generally, people enjoy things like paintings on their walls, or that satisfaction of knowing that they can have a place to lounge if they ever need to. Maybe its not financially beneficial, but enjoying yourself, while not harming others is not a waste of money.
- MikeToth1001, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16The math is simple. But, here's an example.
Two people live next door to each other. Both are married, with 2 children each. Same ages. Both work at the same job, and both bring home the same wages of $65,000 per year. Wives do not work.
Man #1 has just gotten 15 pre-approved credit cards in the mail, and sends in for all of them. Total amount he can chargfe is $150,000.00.
Man #2 gets the same credit card applications in the mail, but he shreds them before even opening them. Total amount he can charge is $0.00.
Man #1 goes out and buys a $6,000 Plasma, aand many other things totaling the $150,000 limit. He starts showing off to Man #2, as he doesn't have these "toys". Man #2 smiles, and says, "you da man", but inside he knows.
Man #2 lives within his means, and without dredit cards he can't spend above his means. He pays his bills on time, or even a bit ahead of time for some things. He even makes extra mortgage payments, and puts the extra towards "principle only".
Two years have passed.
Man #1 is in dire financial straits. They've repossed several items for non-payment. His debt is now well over $300,000. Plenty of fighting at home. Wife is threatning divorce. Kids doing without some things for school. Plenty of problems.
Man #2 is paying off the mortage very quickly. The cars might be a bit older, but they are well-maintained and work well. Kids have everything they need for school. No fights at home over finances, but maybe some discussions over what to get the kids, etc. They have gotten one credit card, for emergencies, but have taken great pains to ensure the limit is within their means. (Around $500.00) Just in case a car breaks down, kid breaks a bone, etc. Things happen.
Two more years pass.
Man #1 has filed for bankruptcy. His wife left him a while back, and he has lost his job. The bankruptcy has taken almost everything away from him, except one car. The house is in foreclosure. He now lives out of his car.
Man #2 has been told by his wife that they are going to have another child. He has been saving money, for a "rainy day" for a while, and with his health insurance that will have no problem with finances. They still have no plasma TV, or several other luxuries. But, the house has only another 11 years of mortgage out of a 30 year mortgage. The cars all all paid for. Their retirement plans are looking good and they are happy. Man #2 sees Man #1 drive away from his house for the last time.
So, the moral? Live within your means. If you make $8.00 an hour, don't buy $200 jeans. Do you really need that 1,000 inch plasma? Do you need 20+ credit cards? Credit cards are NOT free money. They hook you, and then you're paying the minimum for decades.
If you live within your means, and only spend what you can afford, then you'll come out ahead in the long run. I know people that put off going to college for a couple of years so they could build up a "war chest" and not be buried by a student loan. Some companies even help you pay for higher learning if it falls within your job description.
My point is to not use credit cards, EVER! After the first time of using one, you get hooked pretty quickly. You start using it to by coffee at starbucks. You buy some candy at a check-out counter. Gas for you and a friend. Keg of beer for the "big game". Then, the bils come in, but you see the minimum patment is $15.00, so you only pay that. They have you hooked now. The next month, you see the minimum has gone up a few dollars. You call them, and they inform you it's the 26% interest rate for the balance. You say to yourself that you'll pay it off next month, and make a minimum payment. Next month, it's gone up even more. You're now in the cycle most people are going through with credit cards. If you pay the minimum, it could take you 20 to 30 years to pay off that debt, and end up costing you tens of thousands of dollars more than what you originally bought. Think of that candy bar you ate 3 decades ago, Was it worth it? - ArtificialAnus, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20@junkmail02
>what a dumb bitch. if i make 150k a year i'm gonna use that money and
>buy bigger and better things. why would settle for a one bedroom apt and
>a honda civic when i can have a 4 bedroom house and a bmw?[...]
>-z00k
No, you're the dumbass. First, I'd like to point out that if you're living in a 1br apt, there's no way you'd need a 4br house unless you sprog three children really quick.
Second, it would be INFINITELY smarter, if you're making 150k, to NOT blow it all in one majestic splooge, only to be out on the street should you ever lose the job. If you were to dump a lot of that into, I don't know interest bearing investments of some kind, instead of on a useless non-asset "investment" like a huge house, you'd be retired and enjoying the rest of your life a lot faster, instead of being a wage slave until death.
>i certainly don't want to be the richest stiff in the cemetery
And you won't be. Given your philosopy, you'll likely die as a walmart greeter, working until the day you die.
ArtyA - lianos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13@YumYum
Dude ... if you want to go to college, don't "try to go", just "go".
Take out student loans and do what you have to do. - macdaddydwj, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13what bills? she can just pay in person for the gym membership, and use payphones to call the credit card company... she probably has all the numbers stashed in her box full of crap
it doesn't say that she cancelled her cards or closed out her bank acct... a day at the bank or a local webcafe for like 10 minutes and she could setup autopay for all that stuff, even easier with direct deposit
at least that's what I do - l0ne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Credit cards add an element of danger by making it easy to buy without guarantees that you can repay. Here where I live (western Europe) cc's have never gained much ground, and therefore it's harder to become indebted, because a. you pay everything in cash or b. you ask for financing, in which case you must prove on the spot that you are able to repay over time your debt (usually by bringing the last receipt of payment for your salary, which also contains info about your employer). Especially in big stores, you never get out without guaranteeing in some way that you can pay for what you have bought. (Circumstances can happen where you have a debt you can't pay -- i.e. you get fired -- but the risk for a normal citizen with a normal occupation is quite low, at least here.)
If you are an employee, you never *get* to touch the money used to pay for the debt, as it is taken off (along with taxes) from your next salary payment. - philmunt, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14@vandel and parker
What the hell? You guys don't know what your talking about.
The interest you pay is comprised of a number of components ie.
The inflation rate, or expected inflation rate
The value of investments with similar returns and a similar risk profile.
Saying that inflation gives you more money so you pay less interest is stupid because interest rates will always comprise the inflation rate. That is, unless you have a fixed interest rate, then let inflation go nuts. - justahuman, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15remeber tyler durden....lol!!! he makes sense
AN entire generation pumping gas and
waiting tables; or they're slaves
with white collars.
Advertisements have them chasing cars
and clothes, working jobs they hate
so they can buy ***** they don't need.
We are the middle children of
history, with no purpose or place.
We have no great war, or great
depression. The great war is a
spiritual war. The great depression
is our lives. We were raised by
television to believe that we'd be
millionaires and movie gods and rock
stars -- but we won't. And we're
learning that fact. And we're very,
very pissed-off. - domr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I was going to digg this, but then I noticed Cliff added a # to the URL he submitted, simply so he could submit a dupe.
Good story, shame about the submitter. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -7/+15Which is why I left Holland.
I much prefer the optimism of the USA. I can see why you want the security and govt help. For myself I choose America, as did Google, Microsoft, IBM, Dell, AMD, Oracle, Apple. There's a reason why they're in the USA and you buy from them not from a Dutch company. - modpancake, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I just spent an hour reading various blog entries on her site. Good stuff, that.
- GameCat, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14You try it then
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+15@ Vandel405
"Because of inflation, we all get more dollars."
The problem lies in the fact that we aren't really "getting more dollars". Minimum wage is still the same minimum wage it was several years ago (although some states have just recently raised it and (!) tied it to inflation), and salaries are dropping or stagnant in many fields. The people that are getting more dollars are doing so with overtime, second jobs, or by making both parents work. Just my opinion mind you, but it seems to be the case in my circles. - Coronagold, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Smithers, release the hounds.
- dicroce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You didn't realize she was joking even when you read the part about training children to be 9 year old assassins?
- stmiller, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@ twinklyJesus:
Yes, that's good advice. But that does not work for 99% of the rest of us out here. Imagine this:
college (Student loans): $30,000
car loan: $13,000
credit cards needed at moments to survive: $6,000
------------------------------------------
$49,000 in debt
THIS is the average person, finishing college. Now try to tell them, 'oh pay off your credit cards each month. Buy a house, don't rent..... blah blah.'
That doesn't work. The average person (like me) is in a pile of debt; and doesn't have enough credit to buy a house.
It takes 10 years or more for people to finally get out of debt. I'm out of college and luckily making $12,000/yr right now. It's barely enough for living expenses. I'll have to figure out how to pay of debt later in the future.
I think in your situation you had parents helping you with money through college, and to pay for your college. That is not the case for everyone else. That and you having a combined income with your spouse @ $18k each at first is not poor. - flygirl62, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I wish the government (and the voters) would learn this. In this past election, a few days ago, California voters agreed to approx $50B in more debt for the state for various items. IIRC, the bonds are 40 year bonds and many (though not all) of the benefits of that money will be gone long before 40 years from now.
IOW, unless my 7 year old daughter is living in another state at the time, she will be paying for things that she receives no benefit from except the dubious statement that "she's better off because those things gave her a better life as a small child."
I guess I see this as even worse than people using credit cards to raise their standard of living because we are burdening our children (not ourselves) with paying off a debt that we are getting the benefit of --- kinda like my buying a new car on a credit car in her name and saying "well, it's how I drive her to school, so she should make the payments on it as soon as she starts working."
The voters are all selfish muckety-mucks. If we want... no, NEED... things, take the money from other programs and/or raise taxes. Do not burden the future generation with debt for OUR refusual to rein in spending! - CiXeL, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4ex-pat to where? im sure the credit card companies can follow you to some countries. i love the idea however.
- Cglass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Not in debt ;)
- l0ne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Prepaid CCs also are nice, since you essentially cannot go down whatever amount you have put on it.
- Kallius, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Interesting thing that nobody seems to have mentioned:
In one of her earlier blogs, she states that, "...you should have known me when I was in high school. At that time, I hadn’t ever had to struggle for anything in my life. Everything from material things to academic achievements were mine without the slightest bit of work or effort on my part."
In other words, during a (presumably) large portion of her life, she was able to have all the material possessions she wanted. And I'm not taking anything away from her achievement for getting out of debt, but I think there's a lot to be said about the "It's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all" idea. In other words, she sat on both sides of the fence and *knew* what it felt like to have everything.
Some people who run themselves into debt are doing it because they've never lived in a nice house (or maybe never lived in a house at all), or never had nice clothes, or had to ride the bus their entire life. Just because someone grew up poor does not necessarily make them appreciate the "little" things in life. My point is that it's probably easier to say "meh" when things you've already been there, as opposed to being there for the first time. - covertbadger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If you were offended by it, it went over your head. Hint: read up on the definition of satire, then google for Swift's "A Modest Proposal".
- Jack000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think you guys makes some good points. I can understand getting in debt because of a crisis, but when you're making good money and still in debt it just doesn't make sense.
and yes, my education in engineering is expensive but I haven't touched one loan or needed anything from my parents. Engineering internships tend to pay pretty well and I imagine similar possibilities for other skilled professions. - notgod, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@ Jack000
Well I just signed up just to say how full of ***** you are. But first I want to comment on how horrible the commenting system is on digg. Why do I have to reply to a parent thread and then specify I'm responding to Jack000? Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I don't want to sit here all day trying to figure it out if I am, bad design.
Anyway I'm also in engineering, electrical if you need to know. I'm also doing coops and internships while going through school. I've been in NYC for 6 months and there's no way I could pay off all my college debt even if I wanted to, and neither could you - unless you went to a community college. NYC is perhaps the biggest financial capital of the world, not too sound like I'm bragging at all, but I guarantee I make more money than you because I work for one of the biggest and best contractors in the US. I don't have a car payment because being in NYC you really don't need one, I don't pay rent because my company pays it for me so the only expenses I really have are food and small transportation (subway, bus, plane tickets if I go on vacation). I also get a lot of overtime. So I've been making good money and I have basically no expenses, besides my cell a and gym membership. There's no possible way I could add up all of the money I've obtained through his coop, even if I didn't have the phone and membership and ate at homeless shelters for free, to pay for the 3 years I've been in school. I don't even have private loans either, all of the loans I get are from the government. I do go to a private college so the price is probably slightly higher than state or community colleges but I still don't think you could pay it off without help from an outside source like your parents or family.
But the thing is, good debt like college debt doesn't really matter as long as you're working to get rid of it every month. If you max your credit cards then you're asking for trouble. One tip I'll share is that at the end of every month you should pay off all of your credit card debts entirely, don't leave a balance so that they can charge you interest because it can add up quick. -
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