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187 Comments
- dmightx, on 09/21/2008, -5/+170Ouch, that is ironic. I would like to see how this turns out.
- str3ama, on 10/12/2007, -1/+111dugg up even tho its a dupe, I realized this in my 2nd year of uni and even e-mailed them - and they're reply was "you still retain the rights to your content. Turnitin does not publish your essays or literature, we merely keep it in a database for a set period of time".
The staff member refused to say how long this period of time is, even still holding my copyrighted work in a database which is still used is infringement of my copyrights. I'm not so concerned with copyrights, but if Big Industry is going to penalize me for using copyrighted material (especially profiting from it), I feel inclined to do so back to them.
Let's take their website + graphics + text from their faq, site and store it in a db to be used to check against site design plagiarism. Think they'll enjoy that? - vemerge, on 10/12/2007, -16/+99@azzurro360: I didn't see it twenty four hours ago, apparently neither did the hundreds that have dugg this story. Kindly move along.
- vemerge, on 10/12/2007, -4/+73Are you seriously suggesting that schools own the copyright to a student's paper? That is ridiculous! The student wrote the piece and did not receive payment for it. What the hell man?
- Screwy1138, on 10/12/2007, -1/+63It doesn't matter if they're not distributing or publishing the copyrighted works, they are using them for their profit without paying agreed to royalties.
- secleinteer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+63I have to use this site for EVERYTHING I turn in for my English classes. Seeing it get taken down would be great. There are a LOT of other people, both at my school, and at other schools around the US, that have the same sentiment.
- Wonderkind, on 10/12/2007, -1/+58Turnitin makes a profit. If they use my work (my intellectual property) in order to make that profit, whether or not they show it to anyone else, I deserve to be compensated for my work. They are selling my work, albeit indirectly. If my teacher compares my work to see if it is copied from anywhere, that is only discovery. That makes sense.
It's all about who makes profit on the intellectual property of others.
But who knows what the hell the courts will decide. - nixuseleven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+43... I think thats why they're in school. To get a job.
- physphd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+43If (and that is an "if") they are using copyrighted work without permission for monetary gain, it is indeed their responsibility.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+36"According to the lawsuit, each of the students obtained a copyright registration for papers they submitted to Turnitin."
"One of the McLean High plaintiffs wrote a paper titled "What Lies Beyond the Horizon." It was submitted to Turnitin with instructions that it not be archived, but it was, the lawsuit says.' - jayhawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+35when i tried turnitin for one semester, i could put a student paper in. if the student paper matched a little bit of another paper then i could access the complete other source. if that other source just happened to be one of these student's papers then i could access their complete document. thus, the copyright violation might hold some water.
as an instructor, i am glad to see this development . . . but i am sorry it took high school students -- adults should have figured this out long ago. - dustyshadow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+34"but I think it would be ludicrous to expect Turnitin to pay the patrons of its service."
They shouldn't pay for making money off of these students' work?? The students are apparently forced to use this service and NOT receive any payment for it. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+31$150,000 per infraction is the maximum penalty allowed under the Copyright Act for willful infringement. The bottom end of the range is $300, so you can see why you'd want to start high.
- vemerge, on 10/12/2007, -1/+30It is so copyrighted. How do you not understand the most basic principal of copyright law?
Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape or a letter), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights. - masgrada, on 10/12/2007, -4/+31This seems to be very similar to the hot water that Google is in for databasing published works.
- nixuseleven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+27Here's how I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
"We'll sell you our service, and you give us your papers. Then, we'll use the papers that you gave us to compare it to all the other papers that we have on file and let you know if its copied. We'll also save this paper in our database so we can compare other peoples papers to the ones you submitted to us and charge another company for the same process..."
Technically, isn't iParadigm profiting off these papers?
Without the papers, the company would be out of business.
Did I say the word papers too much ?
Papers. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+25@Reponere
The father of one of the students has been quoted as saying that he has no desire to gain any money from this lawsuit. He just wants Turnitin to respect the rights of the true creators of the content they profit from. With regard to the actual amount; Turnitin has exclusive contracts with many high schools and universities across America. They pretty much control a market that didn't exist before they created it. Since they're a private company, we have no idea what their revenues are. $150,000 may turn out to be a paltry sum, especially considering that the families aren't really out for cash. Others have noted above that it's also the maximum amount allowed under the law. I can't confirm that, but going for the maximum seems a good way to make their point, I'd say.
@roosterjm2k2
"So, aside from the personal info in the papers, the papers belong to turnitin when you submit it. End of story. You cant attach your own copyright to something and submit it though a system that doesnt require the interaction of a representative of a company.
That would be like me saying "this message is copyright [me], it can not be archived, displayed, or allowed to be dugg down" ... then trying to sue digg because it was."
That assumes that their TOS passes muster in a court of law. They may be overstepping their bounds, which will no doubt have to be resolved in this case.
Assuming that they do pass muster, I have a personal issue with this case; in both high school and college, I was required to submit papers to Turnitin. If I had not I would have failed the course. Looking at the extremely broad and (I feel) overreaching aspects of the TOS of the site, any of the work that I had completed could have been effectively stolen by this company. Let's say I was a business student who had written a business plan for my thesis and I was required to submit this to turnitin.com. Under the TOS Rooster has posted above, these crooks now own my work. Sure it's non-exclusive, but who cares, once the cat's out of the bag, it's out. Imagine if Fred Smith's Fed Ex proposal (first written as a graduate project) had been submitted to Turnitin and some sharp-eyed goon over there had seen it. This crosses academic lines as well; it endangers the work of any student: biology, engineering, and mathematics students are all being required to submit their work to this site. Granting them the rights to that work is criminal, in my view.
What's just as bad is that, in order to get the education and diploma that my family and I (and my student loans) paid 6 figures for, I've been blackmailed by my school into handing away my hard work for free. Having started and run a business from a business plan that I created with my classmates during a college course, I can attest that those pages aren't just the idle ramblings of an overnighter. That's serious business that we're compelled to hand over to them. Luckily, my business plan wasn't submitted to Turnitin, but more and more courses are requiring it, making this scenario more and more plausible. - vemerge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24What does the topic of the papers in question have to do with anything? I could write a dissertation on "How ***** of a Digg user is ChicknBot" that would be worth nothing (except, perhaps, to you) but still have a valid copyright.
- TTSkipper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+23Actually Google does ask, or at least they or any crawler should by checking your robots.txt first. You can say that you do not want your site or images indexed. Check out http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/robots.html
- mikeyj10, on 10/12/2007, -9/+32Well if they really are out to protect students intellectual property, then shouldn't the students be allowed to decline the use of their "service". I love how lawyers can make up any *****.
- jthebrain5, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21Yep straight from http://www.copyright.gov/ "How to Secure a Copyright
The way in which copyright protection is secured is frequently misunderstood. No publication or registration or other action in the Copyright Office is required to secure copyright. Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is “created” when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time." - bedlam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1999.9% of the time the instructor REQUIRES the work to be submitted to turnitin.com. In other words, if you don't submit the work, you receive no credit for the assignment. The whole system is flawed because if you disagree with their terms and decide not to submit, you fail the assignment. If you submit the assignment, turnitin.com continues to make money (albeit indirectly) off of your work.
- str3ama, on 10/12/2007, -0/+20it's not about plagiarism, I've never plagiarised or sold or given away any of my essays to be used again - but my concern, is I don't want turnitin profiting from any work I've written, regardless of how crappy it is. IF they want to keep my essay, they must pay royalties.
- Henaro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17It's not that I don't see anything wrong with it.
I just don't give a ***** about the multi-millionaire I'm stealing it from. - graystar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18I think it is a case of two can play at this game.
- kurtwinter, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Considering how much press RIAA's recent attacks against students, and universities complicity in providing private information without a warrant, I saw what goes around comes around. Universities cannot waste an administrative salary and IT resources aiding and abetting the goon squad from the RIAA and pretend they are doing it for the noble good of the student body, a student body that doesn't respect copyrights, while at the same time handing over student's intellectual property.
Did anyone read Tunitin's legal *****? They claim full rights on all submitted works - whether or not they exercise them is not in question.
So universities can just STFU and deal with it. There are other ways to deal with cheats than to use a commercial service that infringes on student's creative talents. For example, turnitin can, in theory, cause problems for a graduate student who wishes to publish their work. - roosterjm2k2, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23From turnitin.com
"Your License to Us: Unless otherwise indicated in this Site, including our Privacy Policy or in connection with one of our services, any communications or material of any kind that you e-mail, post, or transmit through the Site (excluding personally identifiable information of students and any papers submitted to the Site), including, questions, comments, suggestions, and other data and information (your "Communications") will be treated as non-confidential and non-proprietary. You grant iParadigms a non-exclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, world-wide, irrevocable license to reproduce, transmit, display, disclose, and otherwise use your Communications on the Site or elsewhere for our business purposes. We are free to use any ideas, concepts, techniques, know-how in your Communications for any purpose, including, but not limited to, the development and use of products and services based on the Communications."
So, aside from the personal info in the papers, the papers belong to turnitin when you submit it. End of story. You cant attach your own copyright to something and submit it though a system that doesnt require the interaction of a representative of a company.
That would be like me saying "this message is copyright [me], it can not be archived, displayed, or allowed to be dugg down" ... then trying to sue digg because it was. - RandoTheKing, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18I used turnitin.com in high school. I really hated that website. God forbid two people just happen to write similar paragraphs on the same subject (If this were the case the teacher would automatically fail you). I do have reason to believe they keep our papers on file to enhance their system. I'm not sure though.
- krached, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20I am guessing that all university students have agreed to allow the university to do this simply by attending. Students agree to many things as a standard contract. Since these are high school students, it might be different because they are required by law to attend.
And for all you people who want to sue for copyright infringement, have you registered your work with the copyright office before handing it in? You cannot get statutory damages if you did not. - diggsIt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13Good work son. You could be President, someday.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -14/+26"Well if they really are out to protect students intellectual property, then shouldn't the students be allowed to decline the use of their "service". I love how lawyers can make up any *****."
Not much on the reading comprehension, are you? The students in question DID explicitly ask for their papers not to be entered into the database. Despite their requests, their papers were still included. - dustyshadow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12All students who have used this service should join and make this a class action. Turnitin would go bankrupt.
- judsond, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12"This seems to be very similar to the hot water that Google is in for databasing published works."
Except these kids have no way of opting out, or maintaining control of their work at all. :( - nixuseleven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I did too, then read more into copyright law - and this goes back to the whole "if you created it, it's your copyright" scenario.
- bedlam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11@randotheking
Actually, many colleges already use turnitin.com. - MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13I don't use the music I download to make a profit.
- dougbell, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12@str3ama
"you still retain the rights to your content. Turnitin does not publish your essays or literature, we merely keep it in a database for a set period of time"
I'm glad they told you that... I'm going to try this if the RIAA ever hits me up with a subpoena.
"you still retain the rights to all of Vanilla Ice's music. dougbell does not publish your music, I merely keep it in my iPod for a set period of time" - r81984, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I have been saying turnitin was illegal for the past two years. I refuse to submit my papers to it for my college classes. They make money off of everyone elses work. They use a computer to read and crossreference your work with everyone else's.
turnitin is one of the worst copyright infringers on the planet as their whole business is based on plagerizing everyone elses work through extortion by teachers. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Chicknbot:
"Schools don't care how you get dressed, even if you look like a gang member who just got out of jail."
In my high school, they would quite literally cut off pieces of your pants if you had more than five pockets. Apparently the magical 6th pocket could be used to conceal a weapon, while the first five could not be. One boy at my high school actually got to walk around school with a 4" by 4" hole in the seat of one pair of his shorts, exposing his drawers, because the vice principal himself cut out the seat of his pants, and once done, could not admit he had done something ridiculous and buy the kid a new pair. So he wore them just about every day.
"Schools don't care if you have sex or not, if you drink or smoke, as long as that doesn't happen in school grounds. (same goes with bad vocabulary)"
Sadly, this is increasingly untrue. See the "bong hits for jesus" case. Schools' influence is spreading beyond what is reasonable.
"Schools don't care about students, they care about district policy, money and uhm...yes more money."
Here we agree.
"School only provide the knowledge that will become the base of your job. Nothing more."
The job you get and the money you're able to earn sets the standard of life you'll be able to have. Schools also form the basis of much of a young person's social interaction during their formative years, meaning that young people learn etiquette, behavioral norms, gender roles, teamwork, work ethics, and other life skills while at these schools. - bmwboy2844, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Since they are charging money for licenses for the anti-plagiarism software's use, this certainly does NOT fall under fair use...
- Sil369, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Very interesting topic. You know those sites that post funny things of what happens at schools... ie, funny teacher/student comments, the site that got front-paged recently - funny exam answers from students, etc etc.... Think of it. Are teachers/school officials scanning these documents and uploading them online without permission by the students or parents? Is there a contract with the school that says your work can be used, distributed, sold, etc etc?
Imo, this Turnitin site SHOULD PAY students to keep their papers online (is this only for high school?). Banks pay you more interest if you give them more of your money.... - krached, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Sorry, you must register within 3 months of publication to get statutory damages.
- vertinox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@"And for all you people who want to sue for copyright infringement, have you registered your work with the copyright office before handing it in?"
The DMCA made it clear you do not have to do this anymore. You just have to file a DMCA take down notice to the violating parties and if they don't comply then take it up with the copyright office and or courts. Otherwise... The copyright office would have been swamped with every little piece of blog spam on the internet known to man in paper form.
Of course if you are going to sue, then you will most likely register the work. Otherwise any competent lawyer will tell you when you don't have a case. - Kaiba, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8according to Turnitin only 1 out of 200 in my 2nd year physics was not guilty of plagiarism
these people should be put out of business - brennankeller, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10@imperium2000
the school doesn't retain rights to your work. Just because you did it for a class doesn't mean it falls under the same area as working on a project for a business.I can count numerous times my high school need to get signatures from us to display our work, one such example is that my high school would publish a book every year highlighting student papers for the year. If the school wanted to use your paper they would ask you to sign paperwork giving the school rights to reprint your work. The same went for art classes, and any other time the school would post our work publicly - lifeisgood88, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7the verification of originality isn't the problem -- it's the permanent archiving of the paper. if college students can't "archive" copyrighted music, turnitin shouldn't be allowed to "archive" the papers like their service does.
- MatthewDuke, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@vemerge
That's a dissertation I would actually read. - nixuseleven, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7... watch our essays become DRM'd to hell, by some third-party company offering to "help you retain your copyright".
- DaffyDuck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"The lawyers argue that because the text is not displayed or distributed to anyone, it can hardly be called "infringement.""
Great, so I get a pass for downloading music and not distributing it or "displaying" it? - joelhardi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"If (and that is an "if") they are using copyrighted work without permission for monetary gain, it is indeed their responsibility."
There isn't any question here. Their entire business model is that they get paid by schools who want access to a database of papers and who run search queries against the entire database ("is this paper like any of the others?"). Without the papers, there is no database. They're selling access to copied works they had no permission to copy in the first place.
Schools that are too lazy to adapt to the 21st century are complicit, by paying them and by turning over students' intellectual property in such a crude way. -
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