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275 Comments
- igibson, on 10/12/2007, -33/+180absolutely ridiculous - really proves the fact that atheists are the most distrusted group in the US
what has america come to..... - BlackSheepx, on 10/12/2007, -14/+141I don't know that the kid being thrown out had anything to do with him being an atheist..I think it's just because they were discussing this girls "religion" in school and that's not allowed...but seriously, EXPELLED?! Way to ruin a good portion of some kids life over something pointless, especially if she was talking about it too.
- Morsetlis, on 10/12/2007, -6/+96From the article:
"I expressed that I felt discriminated against as an atheist, and he informed me that mine was not a protected class of people," Averill says.
As an atheist, I feel I have to say:
HELP HELP I'M BEING OPPRESSED! - ZenMojo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+85First, this had nothing to do with atheism. It's an art school of all places. They tolerate just about everything.
Now, I won't jump to any conclusions, but don't ignore the other facts here. He has a history of repeated confrontational behavior with his professors. We all know people who repeatedly come into conflict with their professors -- opinionated smartasses. Is he one? I can't tell without being there, but don't take his side just because he pulled the atheist card.
The most likely situation ... his teachers couldn't, or were to nice to, nail him the last few times, so they gave him a floating secret probation and were waiting for an excuse to throw him out. - Tolzmaniac, on 10/12/2007, -5/+85I'm going to ask the question we all have in out minds: WHO THE HECK BELIEVES IN LEPRECHAUNS?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+58from what I understand he wasn't expelled for being atheist or questioning the other person's religion. he had done some stuff in the past and they wanted to kick him out anyway.
- sephiroth965, on 10/12/2007, -16/+64@BlackSheepx:
"Way to ruin a good portion of some kids life over something pointless, especially if she was talking about it too."
The fact that she intiated the conversation and he was the one who was expelled is what suggests to me that he is being discrinated against as an athiest. - Petrarch1603, on 10/12/2007, -20/+64i for one welcome our new leprechaun overlords
- TheBritishGuy1, on 10/12/2007, -6/+43Though I do feel sorry for the guy, it looks to me as if there is more to this story than is shown. I just don't think this was as much a "anti-atheism" case rather than a breaking of code of conduct. Don't get me wrong, I, myself am an atheist, however, his religious stance does not seem to be the factor in question.
- flamingmb, on 10/12/2007, -6/+42Wow, the person he talked to believed in leprechauns, and they tell him to get a psychiatric evaluation?!
- AdrianRice, on 10/12/2007, -9/+43"He upheld the dean's decision to throw me out," Averill says. "He offered to re-admit me if I underwent—get this—psychiatric evaluation."
This is the most disturbing quote. - fantasmacanino, on 10/12/2007, -5/+33I wish I could say something witty/sarcastic about this but I'm kinda disgusted at the fact that a human being is treated differently because he doesn't believe in leprechauns. I don't think any less of him and neither should you.
- 7umor, on 10/12/2007, -6/+27There are no such things as leprechauns?!?!?!? Zomg!?!?!?!?!?!
- thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -10/+31Wow, what a fallacy of two choices.
I was raised with a Bible, chemistry set, computer, and a caring family.
I'm now a computer engineer with a firm belief in God and in Science. You people need to get off your high-horse and look at opposing viewpoints before denouncing them. - Petrarch1603, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21why are you making broad assumptions based on your limited experience?
- eplawless, on 10/12/2007, -3/+24I believe in magical faeries, but not oppression...
- OUChevelleSS, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21Theists can be just the same way, sadly.
- Woodpecker, on 10/12/2007, -5/+23You absolutely can be a devoted athiest. I believe that atheism is a reasonable philosophy, and just like all the ***** evangelical christians, I have a right to defend and promote my worldveiw.
- thesparrowband, on 10/12/2007, -0/+18the dude could have been a complete *****, and the school could have been using this one policy violation to get him out of their school. Then again, the same could be true about the dean. It sounds like one of those things you have to either be there for or read personal interviews on.
- lanboy, on 10/12/2007, -6/+22At judicial meeting dean brings up "the fact that Averill had had some trouble with three instructors in October."
Three. Instructors. A month or two ago. Three.
Based on the limited evidence that I have, I believe the following.
1. We live in a godless universe and must manufacture our own ethical codes.
2. This kid is a braying schweembag, whose lack of social skills and probably near pathalogical lack of empathy hs driven him into 5 verbal altercations with school authorities in the last two months, and has at least one time inappropriately berated a fellow student in a manner that made her feel uncomfortable or unsafe.
3. Just because believers in lepracauns, bogans and omnipotent supreme beings may be idiots, this does not mean that people who define themselves as unbelivers in the same are not. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16WAIT SANTA ISNT REAL?
- LexisNexis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15Rainbows exist for the sole purpose of marking leprechaun gold.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20@ OUChevelleSS
It's almost as ridiculous as a Christian Fellowship Club:
"So, we all like God, right? See you next week." - brydude, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19Jesus, that chick was crazy! I mean, what next? Some guy in the sky is actually 3 people...but, one of his multiple-identities died. Oh, wait, he came back though, he didn't really die. But his death cured everybody, even though it never really happened. Also, science isn't real, because it doesn't agree exactly with some two thousand year old story.
Sheesh, she's insane! Short, green-tinted people? Wow. - GeneralFailure0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13If the girl who believed in leprechauns had gotten kicked out of school, I'd be just as upset. This is wrong.
- daedalus1982, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14@ DogmaticAtheism
lol no, he just made a base level observation about faith based systems...namely that no scientific proof can be brought to the table over something that must be accepted on faith (that being believing with out knowing). do correct me if i'm wrong about this.
he, in essence, just said that she believes in something that cannot be proved due to the nature of her belief.
edit: oh yes and she was discussing religion. he was, by speaking of proof, talking about science. let him graduate i say - EXreaction, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17@ DogmaticAtheism
Morons shall be blocked. Especially brainwashed psychos such as yourself. - VeganG, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16@DogmaticAtheism:
"What a complete douche and deserves what he got. Anyone who thinks otherwise is biased in favor of atheism."
You say that as if it's something to be ashamed of. - mc7winkie, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17Sounds like only we're only getting a part of the story. The way this is presented is the way every high school kid who gets in trouble for saying something stupid that doesn't want to admit they said something stupid and quite possibly mean.
- dmoney22, on 10/12/2007, -7/+19What if the kid with the chemistry set grows up to make a new life threatening psychoactive like meth?
- icepick101, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18"...we are nilists Lebowski, we believe in nothing!"
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14de·vote (tr.v. de·vot·ed, de·vot·ing, de·votes)
1. To give or apply (one's time, attention, or self) entirely to a particular activity, pursuit, cause, or person.
2. To set apart for a specific purpose or use: land devoted to mining.
3. To set apart by or as if by a vow or solemn act; consecrate: a temple devoted to Apollo.
I see no reason why a person can't be a devoted atheis. If that person gives time, attention, or self entirely to the activity, pursuit, cause, or person, that person is devoted. - dtrinh, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14This is one of those situations where you step back and assess what you're getting worked up about ...
leprechauns
...
Ok, now are leprechauns _really_ worth all this trouble? :) - noreturn, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16While the topic of the conversation may have been ridiculous, to say the least, I have a hard time believing that he was expelled for simply having a civil discussion. This guy seems to be the kind that looks for a fight wherever he can find one, and once one is found, proceeds to be belligerent and an arrogant ***** about it.
- 4g3nt_Smith, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13It comes from being constantly belittled by those who think there's some big guy in the sky whose going to smite us and try to "save us" from damnation.
- kelkitty, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14After reading the article with a somewhat critical eye towards both sides -- I'm an avid atheist -- I think that their actions werent THAT out of hand. Yes, he certainly should NOT have been expelled. However I don't believe he should have gone without repercussion; reading the article it seems as if he is indeed a pretty belligerant person. Perhaps he didn't want to 'dissuade' her, but he certainly wanted to push the issue that her beliefs were less than valid. That's just as much saying 'you're wrong' as saying "you're wrong" is. From the different reports from the other side, this was one of a string of most probably unrelated but certainly real prior misdeeds. This guy isn't the upstanding protagonist being oppressed by an anti-atheist administration. This is a somewhat overreactive but certainly provoked administration who thinks that this confrontational guy doesn't need to be around pushing other people around any more, whether it be about religion or other things.
He looks like a dick in the picture, too, despite the shirt. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10@ obrysii
I appreciate your reply, and will try to answer based on my viewpoint. You are free to disagree, as these are just opinions - which is something we are all entitled to.
"there is much that science cannot prove."
Very true, however these is nothing that religion can prove, and we continue to learn more and more from science every day.
"Where did life come from? How did it begin? How did DNA arrange itself so that it could become the building block of life?"
I would point to the Big Bang, Evolution, and again, Evolution.
"How can science prove that quarks and various particles like that exist?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark
"Since it's all about fact: can you prove that you love someone to someone else? Can you prove that they loved you?"
Absolutely, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love#Chemical_basis
"There is much that science cannot prove. To say that is the fault of religion, that it is based on nonscientific belief, is hypocritical."
I never said it was the _fault_ of religion. Religion simply has no scientific basis. You are free to believe whatever you want, but it doesn't make it real. - thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -3/+121.) He interjected HIMSELF into another conversation of which he was not a part:
Averill, a Game Art Design student and a devoted atheist—he even runs a blog called Portland Atheist—sidled over and joined the conversation.
2.) This reeks of not doublespeak. I'm not telling you're wrong, but you have no proof..
Averill says he wasn't trying to disprove the other student's religious beliefs, but "to convince her not to insist that they were scientifically proven." - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Atheists' main argument is that a person subscribing to a particular religious view speaks of their own religion as though it was a fact, not fiction. Fact is a very straightforward term:
fact (n.)
1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2. a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
2. b. A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
c. Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
3. A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
4. Law The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.
If someone told me, an atheist, that God made the earth, I simply ask what facts can they provide to support their argument. Whatever "facts" (and I use the term loosely in this context) they provide are really fiction delivered as though it was fact - and that is the problem. I encourage people to challenge their views of religion (both their own as well as the views of others) by asking themselves, "What part of what I believe is fact, and what isn't?" - munit, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10the article points out that this is one of many problems the student has had. Although they did not say what the other problems were it is likely that those were the real reason he was expelled. The article is one-sided so the student seems like the victim. the person from the school they interviewed specifically explained that this was the last straw of many instances
- andreo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@ZenMojo:
"The most likely situation ... his teachers couldn't, or were to nice to, nail him the last few times, so they gave him a floating secret probation and were waiting for an excuse to throw him out."
Expulsion normally requires double secret probation. Just ask the Delta House fraternity. - dmoney22, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Why should *you* even care if someone believes in Santa etc. etc. If they aren't pushing their beliefs on you then you shouldn't be having your panties in a knot. Also, a kick in the teeth? Based on your logic a Christian should be kicked in the face for being a Christian?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Leprechauns don't exist? Have you SEEN Leprechaun in Da Hood? I rest my case!
- GeneralFailure0, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I hate that 'science can't prove anything' argument. Of course it can't. You can never prove everything. If you look at it from a broader, more philosophical view, you can never prove ANYTHING. But that does NOT make scientific analysis less valid, and it in no way make religious doctrine any more valid, because science is based on observation and religion is based on stories written by people from before the dark ages.
- Ramtech, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Not all of them are... I'm an atheists...I smile..
- milomilomilo, on 10/12/2007, -13/+20Sad world when the belief in ***** LEPRACHAUNS is protected over rational thought.
I would write more but really, if the young girl believe in such things she deserved more than a brow beating. I'd suggest a good kick to the teeth and a reality check.
I'm sure the young lady believes in Santa, the easter bunny and the likes.
I lose hope for this world daily. - ZenMojo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Atheists are a protected group. ***** who butt into other peoples' conversations to ridicule them into "enlightenment" are not. That is where this whole matter got confused.
- tardmongerster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Hey, it's the damned atheists who forced the issue and got religous discussions banned from schools in the first place, so I don't want to hear any crybaby atheists when it comes back to bite them in the ass.
- thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -5/+123.) This is the crux... it wasn't about religion... apparently this guy is just a dick.
At the judicial hearing, on November 17, Dean of Student Affairs Ron Engeldinger was more focused on the "rude and belligerent behavior" report from the associate dean, Averill says, than on the initial conversation about religion
The student who complained on November 8 wished to remain anonymous, but her account backs up Engeldinger's letter. Her complaint was not the only reason he was sent into the Dean's office. The teacher even told me that my complaint was the 'last straw' as SEVERAL other complaints were stated before mine."
However, she says she "did not wish for him to be expelled or get in trouble and I had no idea that it was going to happen until after the fact."
On Monday morning, November 20, Averill met with the school's president, Dr. Steven Goldman, to appeal his dismissal. "He upheld the dean's decision to throw me out," Averill says. "He offered to re-admit me if I underwent—get this—psychiatric evaluation." - gohepcat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Please read the article. He obviously was kicked out for other *****. I went to art school, and believe me, everyone in art school is a dick. To get kicked out you have to be an incredible dick.
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