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131 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+46There's a church not far from where I live that cost over $60 million to build. It has professional camera equipment hanging from cranes (along with professional camera operators), a hundred foot projection screen, live web streams, etc.. going into it looks like you're going into a public mansion. The place is freaking huge -- marble floors, pillars -- probably around 300,000+ sq ft.
How can anyone justify this? If a church is a place to go to worship, why does it need to be so extravagant?
I don't have a problem with donations going to religious organizations, but I DO have a huge problem when all this money is being blown on creating the biggest and baddest church around.
Oh, and by the way, the minister is now a millionaire.
An ex girlfriend of mine went there, I went once.. it was disgusting. - Conspiracy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+272,952 - Pounds of fruitcake delivered to US troops in Iraq for the holidays.
What a dumb idea. Nobody eats those. They were probably thrown at unsuspecting Iraqis. - borninda818, on 10/12/2007, -28/+50not necessarily.
First of all, most religious organizations rely solely on charity whereas Schools get money from government or receive tuition.
Secondly Churches usually give a large portion of their money beck to the community in some way, shape, or form.
This only seems bad if you are not a person of faith. If you are a member of your local church or temple, these numbers are not too surprising. After all, the Church saves your soul. It is more important than anything else worth giving money to. (not exactly my opinion) - sonicdevo, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15Yea, those horrible churches; sending medicine and food along with their missionaries to underprivileged people around the world.
Yup, I'd much rather give to the bureaucratic joke that is public education. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -13/+21MiddleGirth,
Perhaps you need a primer on the definition of 'charity': a private, non-profit, philanthropic, human health and welfare organization.
A private organization can give their funds to whoever the ***** they want to, whenever the ***** they want to. As an atheist student who is in debt up to his ***** eyeballs, these statistics do sadden me; however, as this article points out, this is America, and in America people can do whatever the ***** they want with their money, as they should. - Rickler, on 10/12/2007, -11/+19A pastor down the street from me is building a new house, it will be worth over a million when it is done. What a great gig it is to be a conartist for a living.
- iceperson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Ahh, more examples of tolerance from Digg.
You people do realize that the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, St. Judes Children's Hospital, John 3:16 Mission, etc... are all considered "religious organizations" don't you?
Perhaps you people can point me to some non-religious charities that feed and shelter the poor? - kuwan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Welcome to Digg, home of progressive thinkers and tolerance. Unless of couse the topic is religion. Because if you're religious then you're nothing but a brainwashed, backwards sheeple that worships "fairies in the sky."
But forget that, we're very tolerant and understanding of other people's beliefs here. Really we are. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -25/+32Given to religion. Taken from taxpayers for schools.
- Railroader, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8It is amazing how money is wasted in the public school system. My wife has been a teacher for 10+ years. The stories she tells me about waste of funds is astounding. The are currently setting up a wireless network in three K-3 school building in our area. I'm sure those 1st graders are going to love getting digg on their wireless devices.
- Broccoli, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Yes there are some churches that waste money on these overkill catherdrals i agree. I go to a church and its very basic alot of the money goes into helping people. Alot of churches give alot of money into the community you just dont notice them because they dont stand out like these multi million dollar churches. Personally i think that once the bills are paid that the church needs to operate the rest should go to the community to help people and the less you waist on overkill buildings the more you can give. But christians are people and people are not perfect and will do stupid things.
- freehunter, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14No, he means them to be separate, war on drugs is a waste of money, and religion is a waste of money. No one is waging a war on religion.
- Sairgem, on 10/12/2007, -8/+15Bring in the angsty teens bashing religion!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Sure I tolerate it. I'm not going to berate you for what you believe. I might disagree with you, but I don't think you're ignorant because of your belief.
- nestafett, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Why is anyone upset at this?
When people give to churches it is often for charitable work (My mom gives to her church fund that is helping to build an orphanage in Mexico)
yes, some churches waste money, so do some schools, so do some charities. No one is perfect and all humans are extremely corruptible, especially when large amounts of $ are in play.
Church does not create bad people any more than any other beleif system does, but many people use religion to gain power, and many people are corrupted when they gain power in a church.
The problem is not Religion, it is human nature.
While everyone blames religions for most the worlds wars they don't realize that was hundreds or thousands of years ago. The worst wars of the 20th century were not fought over religion. They were fought over land, racial purity and systems of government - iceperson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"No one is waging a war on religion."
You're new here aren't you? - elk1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7This also says a lot about who gives those donations. The fact that a huge majority goes to religious institutions clearly shows that the religious are more likely to donate money. Many of the people who agree with Somniis assertion probbaly view paying taxes as their main means of helping out the less fortunate. And that is truly horrible.
- jwigum, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I would much rather donate money to my church, as opposed to having it taken from me by my government.
Few things are more insulting than "You don't know how to spend your money, so we'll distribute it instead."
On a related note, I think a proper system is very limited government(read: military and limited judicial and congressional systems), with charity being overseen by other entities. - Charlotte_Web, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10A lot of churches, particularly the larger ones, run their own schools. So, it doesn't sound like these numbers are telling the whole story.
Also, churches contribute to many social welfare programs, taking some of the burden off of the government. This is the way that it should be. In the ideal world, welfare would be entirely divorced from the government, and in the hands of the charitable organizations who are more in touch with the communities around them.
Oh, and the church that cost $60 million... it's all relative, isn't it? If you got ten or fifteen thousand members, you're going to need something a little bigger than the old country church, now, aren't you?
Plus, being a capitalist, it's hard for me to get upset at money being spent. That $60 million kept a lot of people employed and supported a lot of businesses. Money that is spent has a ripple effect through the economy, like a pebble being dropped on a pond. You pay someone $1 million to build a house, they buy materials and pay salaries; those employees in turn buy goods and services within their community, keeping other people employed, and so on and so forth. People always want to get all uppity about money being spent without ever looking at the good that it does.
Yes, I know there are a lot of big-name ministers that are millionaires. I don't know of any of them off the top of my head that got that way from church salaries. Generally, when they get to be a big name, they earn it on the side by writing books and producing videos and the like. - J6stik, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Most religious people (at least Christians, not completely sure about others, but almost sure) regularly set aside money every month (about 10%) for tithe, so this isn't really surprising.
Also, anyone who comments saying that giving money to a religious organization (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, Scientology, anything) is a waste and that it's a horrible thing to do: don't ever call yourself tolerant or understanding again. I've seen tons of these comments already and it's stupid. - shotzky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Except that Christianity (and any other decent religions) teach that the way to help yourself after you die is to help people living today (well technically salvation comes from faith in Christianity, but following God's commands entails helping others). I don't understand why people here are assuming money goes straight from the offering plate to the minister's pocket. I don't think people would have given 93.2 billion dollars to religious organizations if they did not think it would change the world for the better.
- Charlotte_Web, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@lazyrussian:
It's not the government's money. It's the people's money. The government didn't earn that money, they just took it. - bheilig, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5To all who said, "There's a hypocrite pastor with a million dollar home down the street".
My pastor's house is also worth a couple million dollars. My wife is the finance manager in our church. She says his salary (which is taxable income) is well below mine. How can he afford such a house? He is also a professional guitarist and owns a couple (for profit) businesses, such as bug and rodent exterminator. Most of his money does not come from church donations. Church donations do provide a steady income however where his other income is not nearly as steady because he can't devote the necessary time to it.
I'm not saying all pastors have other sources of income, but in my experience many do. And sure, there are many con artists that are just in it for the money. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10Why is it ANYONE's business who gives what charitable donations to where? If I were a billionaire and decided to give a few million to a church, why is it anyone else's business? If I decide to give it to the local chapter of the ACLU or the GLBT organization, why is it anyone else's business?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I'm not justifying this statistic by any means, but . . .
Catholic schools are funded by tithing, which I am certain is classified as a religious donation. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I think if a legit audit was performed to see where the money raised went on each of these we would have millions of pissed off Americans.
- Karyyk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Wow, how enlightening, except for the part where Christians can't attain salvation through their own works. It's kind of an important tenet of the faith...
I hate to break it to all of you bashers (seems you yearn for the days of old when Christians were fed to lions and the like), but many of these Christian aid groups are doing good in the here and now, whether you like to admit it or not. Sure, there are abuses in places, that's just part of the human condition (I think you'll find that it's every bit as prevalent in secular groups as well), but that doesn't disqualify that good is being done, and that people are being helped. A lot of them do their part when no one else will, in places no one else will, for no reward, other than the hate they reap for adhering to beliefs that are no longer popular. Cut them some slack, because 95% of the people I know volunteering their life away for that kind of thing are doing it for the right reasons... - shotzky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4So rather than give money to a Catholic food bank the world would be better off if I donated to wikipedia?
- wsanders, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@P5ycho
Considering how much school taxes are, I wouldn't consider donating another dime to our broken public education system. The figure quoted is in donations alone; in the 2004-2005 school year, taxpayers spent $536 billion dollars on public education. Source: http://www.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html
Not even counting the donations quoted in the article or private schools, etc., that's 5 times what was given to religious organizations. And do you think all $93.2 billion that went to religious organizations went to proselytizing? The Salvation Army is a religious organization. The church I'm involved in gives away food(groceries) to those who need it twice a month, just to name one of the things this church does. Most churches spend some of their resources doing positive things for the community in which they do ministry. - wheremyarm, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10"Dawkins will fail because in the end he's as much of a fundamentalist as he rails against."
If you listened to more than the audio snippets your church puts on its website to enrage you, you'd know that wasn't true. - nicepants, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@Duzytata - "I drive past these churches with seating for 5,000 and think to myself; that just isn't right."
It's unfair to judge one as being "not right" solely based on the fact that it's bigger.
A big church with 5,000 members might cost $1,000 per member to build (For a $5M building)
and a small church with 100 members could be upwards of $2,000 per member to build (For a $200k building)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale - nicepants, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@Adamsucks - "If a church is a place to go to worship, why does it need to be so extravagant? "
Go read up on Solomon's Temple that was built in th 10th century BC.
"According to 1 Chronicles 22:14, David had bequeathed to Solomon an accumulated wealth of 100,000 talents of gold and 1,000,000 talents of silver as financial resources towards the construction of the temple." (One talent being about 20 years worth of wages for one worker.) So It would have taken 22 MILLION people, each giving their entire year's wages for one year to accumulate that much money.
I'd say the expense of that temple knocks any churches in today's existence out of the water. - Gravedigger2000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4(I have no idea why people are digging you down.) Your comment was well put.
People love blaming the worlds problems on "Religion" like if we tore all the religious churches down the world would blossom into a perfect unending Utopia free of wars and evil people. - allhard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I would assume so, because the salvation army is a Christian organization.
- rlh1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3AegisGFX - I think that you should look a little closer.
Almost all of the help to the homeless in major cities is done by religious orgainzations.
A very high percentage of your hospitals were built by religious institutions, (that's before HMO's and Insurance companies)
Disaster relief around the world is given out in the billions without strings attached.
If you guys who complain of heart failure because people give to religious institutions step up and do 1/2 the charity then you can whine. - nicepants, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@P5ycho - "It IS a waste. Do you really believe that education is LESS important than religion? And then you talk about tolerance & understanding? Could you please wake the ***** up and think about it?"
By what standard is it "a waste"? No one said education is "less important" than religion. The government spends more money on space exploration than they do on education, does that make education "less important" than space exploration? - xelloss, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4This is Donated money, probably most that goes into the church or whatever goes to helping people or giving stuff to people in other country's. Its the governments job to give money to the schools not ours.
- Karyyk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3They have as much access to the government as anyone else. They can do with their money as they please, they can vote as they please. I'm taking your comment as the dim-witted, closed-minded drivel that it is. Are you suggesting that a religious person should have less rights than a non-religious one? Should their right to vote be withheld because they believe in God? Fortunately, the whole separation of church and state that everyone loves to harp when it suits their own purposes works both ways...
- Gravedigger2000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Money is given to churches because they provide an excellent infrastructure to help people on a local level like in New Orleans. The government doesn't have the resources to help the way churches have been for a long time now. The government does have money, however. Churches provide food, clothes, and other services that are invaluable to those who need it in the community. Most people who go to church believe in Love and Charity. Nobody is perfect, but the Church has definitely proven that they can and do help millions every year.
Hate all you want... but Christianity has changed millions of lives for the better. Giving money to an establishment that helps people is not stupid or sad. Comments like these, however, are. - donkeylips, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Religious organizations (and let's not forget the Salvation Army) do a lot of positive work for our society, and they do it with ZERO federal funding. They are completely dependent on private donations. Whereas money is TAKEN out of out pockets to pay for Education via taxes, and it's quite impressive to me that people are still willing to give an additional $38.6 billion.
I love Digg, but what's with the anti-religious, uber-liberal sentiment around here? This post should have never even been posted, and it's amazing how many people fail to think independently and digg stories like this purely on the basis of hate and ignorance. - kyletp8668, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Not sure why everyone against religion is so mad about this. To me it just shows that the atheists need to pick up the slack and start donating to things they believe in instead of just pissing and moaning that others aren't doing it for them. How much of the education donations came from religious people? I have no idea but I can guarantee that it is a higher percentage than the number of atheists that donate to religions. In other words, religious people donate more than non religious people. Instead of whining about where others donate their money to, step up to the plate and donate to what you think the money should go to.
- TopherT, on 10/12/2007, -27/+29Is this an effective use of money? Wouldn't it save your soul just as well to worship in a hovel? Why the gilding, why the imposing architecture.
- dmsean, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2kyletp8668: because Atheists are survivalists! let the weak DIE ALREADY
- gojcaj, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Don't worry I'm sure in a few minutes this topic will explode into an anti-religion debate. *pulls out lawn chair and a cold one*
- Cronium, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Does "Religious Organizations" include entities like the Salvation Army? Or whatever equivalent they have in the U.S.
- SIDSI, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Dont forget religious organizations dont pay taxes either.
- repins, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I donated to Education, well actually the Government tells me if I do not pay they will take my land away so did I really donate or did they just extort it from me?
- ZeroMP, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Wrong thread much?
- CarolinaHeel23, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2yeah no kidding. churches to humanitarian work... lots of it. Ahhhh faith in humanism
- radix33, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2There's nothing subtle about tithing -- the bible clearly says it's a promise from God that when you tithe you get more blessing. It's a reverse logic that doesn't make any sense until you actually live through it. Actually that's exactly what faith is, believing in things unseen. I know because I went through it -- it just defies logic.
Tithing has been an issue in many churches. However, from the churches that I've been, money that goes to churches is no longer being misused. There is a watch dog organization out there that pays attention to pastors that abuse church's donations. Pastors are now being scrutinized even more ever since the Jim Baker "PTL club" incident in the 80's. Pastors now have other jobs such as businessmen, write books, or goverment work such as police chaplain, etc. to supplement their income. -
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