npr.org— Photojournalist Eirini Vourloumis moved back to her hometown of Athens, Greece, to cover the economic crisis. She found her country unrecognizable.
Feb 12, 2012View in Crawl 4
Oi! Poor Greece. They clearly need to s**t-ton of structural reforms. For instance Greece has over 60 billion euros in uncollected taxes, mostly from wealthy, well off, comfortably living Greeks.
I've heard some scenarios that Greece would be better off leaving the Euro and going back to the Drachma. A quicker harder jolt than a generation of banker instigated austerity would mean.
Current polls in Greece show that parties to the left of the Socialist (who are part of the governing coalition along with the Conservative and some Rightwing Nationalist parties) are surging in the polls.
The scary truth is that all fascist dictatorships in the world were created by Western bankers to fight the left and socialism.
Only when the CCCP destroyed bankers’ best fascist dictatorship (Nazi Germany) have they decided to separate capitalism from fascism, pronounced themselves fighters against its horrors, and came up with fake similarities between socialism and fascism.
Fascist dictatorships were never confronted by Western countries for as long as fascist countries were not to be taken over by CCCP – look at Spain and Greece after WWII.
What the heck are you talking about? The West never confronted fascism? Maybe you missed the other half of WW2 that wasn't on the Soviet front. Most of the West had fallen to Germany - only the UK remained in Europe. If not for what seem to be missteps by Germany, they were close to complete victory in Europe. (One of the biggest is that Germany declared war on the US after Japan attacked. If Germany had not, there is no way that FDR would have been able to convince America to go after Germany first when they did nothing to them. That probably would have given Germany the time to force the UK's surrender... and we'd probably have had a three-way Cold War)
Fascism and Communism are ugly twins - complete totalitarianism of an idea gone horribly wrong. Whether they use populism (Russia), nationalism (Germany) or capitalism (Italy...ish) as their excuse, its more about total control of the population than any ideology. And remember that Germany and the USSR had made an agreement to divide Poland - they were more than happy to sit next to each other and divide the spoils. If Germany hadn't attacked (another major misstep), the USSR might have never swung into action (granted, they might if they thought Germany was going to be defeated by the Allies, to annex more territory)
They haven't controlled their spending.
They haven't controlled their immigration.
They haven't controlled their government.
The result is exactly what you see today.
Clearly you know very little about Greece... Greece does not have an immigration problem (not even poor eastern Europeans want to go to Greece). Greece has an emigration problem!
This was the third sentence in the story: "For one thing, she was struck by the surge of immigrants."
Did you read the article?
Greece has a bad illegal immigration problem.
Have you been living in the same Europe as the rest of us over the last few years!?
Perhaps if Eirini Vourloumis (the person around whom the article was written) had stayed in Greece over the last 12 years she would have seen how Greece has been decimated by the departure of its youngest, brightest and most able bodied professionals.
As in the case of Portugal, Greece has seen more emigration than immigration... and most of the immigration has been from people and professionals like Eirini Vourloumis returning home to see if they can make something out of the collapse, not Eastern Europeans or North Africans (who are generally smart enough to go to economies where there are jobs and not places where the locals cannot get even the most menial jobs).
Yes, many young citizens have left Spain, Portugal, Greece, etc. in the past few years. But these countries and others have also experienced a wave of illegal immigrants, especially from Africa. Pakistanis have also come in numbers. I am suggesting that this has contributed to the economic conditions which resulted in the citizen emigrants leaving.
In case you doubt the serious problem check these:
Greece and the Southern European countries are not the only countries with the problem of illegals. France also has a serious illegal immigration problem, as does Germany and other more Northern countries. Of course the U.S.A. also has the same problem with its Southern border.
Actually it has both an ILLEGAL immigrant problem and an emigration problem.
Low skilled third world illegals are still entering Greece by the boatload (on a massive scale especially when one considers its tiny size) while at the same time the indigenous Greeks with actual job skills are leaving for greener pastures. (through legal channels).
If someone wants to turn their country into a third world nation... just let in the third world with no regard for controls and integration.
And if you want controls and to deport illegals.... according to some patronizing self-proclaimed "human rights" activists you are a "racist".
I am pro human rights but I think at least some of these "human groups" are actually partially responsible for helping create humanitarian crisis because of their self-righteous extremist positions. Some NGOs are basically just a few loudmouth twits that think adding the words "human rights' into their sentences means they are free to slander anyone and that they don't sometimes make morally wrong assessments of a situation.
The people don't want to control their spending, they expect the government to simply pay for everything, then when the economy crashes they blame the government when it says that it has to let civil servants go.
So there was an economic crisis, but unlike Iceland they can't devalue their currency or punish the risk takers who over extended themselves. And now the austerity will compound the problem by shrinking their economy faster than their ability to pay down their accumulating debt. They really are in a vice aren't they.
You're right and I'd add that the USD is the world's reserve currency.........for now.
Those are the reasons why it hasn't happened to us YET. However there will come a time when the value of the US dollar plummets and it will have roughly the same value as toilet paper. Zimbabwe and Argentina both had printing presses as well.
When it does happen, it will be far worse than anything the worlds seen before. There's a big difference between hyperinflation and currency collapse in Argentina vs the United States. It's going to be a LOT uglier than what's going on in Greece.
No, the problem is that they did not pay their taxes. Spending was indeed also a problem with the low pension age, ridiculous payments (eg hazard money for hairdressers) and wide spread corruption.
You're right. Something like 90% of the EU's illegals pass through Greece (which makes up 2-3% of EU). To compound matters virtually all those illegals evade taxes.
Unfortunately bleeding heart far leftist idiots (not the same as moderate left) keep crying "racism" every time Greece tries to deport the massive numbers of illegals within its borders (framing them as "migrants" rather than border violators). It has reached the point that even when they are caught holding facilities are so overrun with illegals it presents inhumane conditions.
There is nothing wrong with immigrantion. In fact its a positive. However it needs to be both controlled (to allow integration) and applicants screened for suitability. Opening the doors to the third world will just turn a country into the third world (like Greece is fast becoming) and end up with a counter reaction of far right extremist groups. (which IMO are often the result of a country trying to hold on to its identity and dignity)
Per capita? Better look again. Compare them against Germany. Germany only spends money on getting people to work. Greece (and the US) pay people not to work. Big difference.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
GDP is less than useless. It's a central planner's statistical gauge that can be swayed by the manipulation of currency and government spending. Next issue...
I returned to visit several times only to find everyone fighting in the cafes for their respective political parties. Where are these politicians now? They have managed to rob the country down to the last euro and just wait because its coming here also. Our system is just a problematic as we have a 14 trillion dollar problem......
Gotta love the philosophy of getting out of their economic woes through austerity. I've never seen it work before, the <a href="http://ratracefreedom.net">rat race</a> is unforgiving.
Gotta love the philosophy of staying healthy by spending way more than you can afford, evading taxes, falsifying your economic data, and getting upto your eyeballs in debt.
Ever read that story about the Grasshopper and the Ant?
It probably would not have been so bad had they not had so many people engaged in tax evasion. It is part of the culture there and a few other countries.
Once you start charging over 25 percent tax, you get tax evasion because it becomes well worth the time and trouble. It's like the black market etc. At a certain point, that's what happens.
There's no economy to tax and lender's aren't exactly lining up wanting to bail them out. Austerity is about their only option........and it's the only one that will work.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
The solution was for people of differing lifestyles not to enter into a common currency in the first place.
If you like to snore loudly at night and play loud music all the time, is it a good idea to move in with someone who likes to have quiet and wants to have a good sleep at night?
you can't go out and get loans all over the place, get a job where you don't have to do much and then freak out and break everything when people ask you to pay your debts back. What's worse still is the idea that Greece may default on their loans which will cause all the countries that trusted them in the first place and gave them loans to fall apart.Everything about this screams selfish entitlement, you can't simply have everything for free.
This is what happens when you allow socialism to run a country to the ground. Austarity is simply another word for, we can't keep giving you freebies, someone has to pay for it, and they aren't doing it anymore.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
I agree, this is socialism with a sense of entitlement and it's completely broken Greece. Having said that I really hope no one is honestly saying that the US is a socialist state, because it's nowhere near socialist. There is a social safety net yes, but the US is very much a capitalist state.
It's amazing that people disagree with you for such a common sense response. Those are the people that are going to try to vote in representatives that are going to drive us off the cliff of bankruptcy.
It was the CONSERVATIVE party that had lied about how bad the budget was BEFORE the socialist party took over. BUT please lets not let fact get in the way of your ideology.
Just like a good foot soldier of the modern conservative movement, you have your own universe you live in. Dont take my word for it, according to former Republican ideologue, David Frum "conservatives have built a whole alternative knowledge system, with its own facts, its own history, its own laws of economics".
Systemic problems like those in Greece can't be blamed on one person or one party. It comes down to the fact that they all failed at balancing a simple budget and saying "no" to things that they couldn't afford.
..........not so different than what is (and will be) going on in the USA.
dollar0dot02Feb 12, 2012
They have small skinny weddings now.
satori3000Feb 12, 2012
I think that's kind of the problem, they don't want to have skinny weddings, they don't want anything to change.
gaia242Feb 12, 2012
Oi! Poor Greece. They clearly need to s**t-ton of structural reforms. For instance Greece has over 60 billion euros in uncollected taxes, mostly from wealthy, well off, comfortably living Greeks.
I've heard some scenarios that Greece would be better off leaving the Euro and going back to the Drachma. A quicker harder jolt than a generation of banker instigated austerity would mean.
Current polls in Greece show that parties to the left of the Socialist (who are part of the governing coalition along with the Conservative and some Rightwing Nationalist parties) are surging in the polls.
Again, Oi, poor Greece!
kochevnik2001Feb 13, 2012
The scary truth is that all fascist dictatorships in the world were created by Western bankers to fight the left and socialism.
Only when the CCCP destroyed bankers’ best fascist dictatorship (Nazi Germany) have they decided to separate capitalism from fascism, pronounced themselves fighters against its horrors, and came up with fake similarities between socialism and fascism.
Fascist dictatorships were never confronted by Western countries for as long as fascist countries were not to be taken over by CCCP – look at Spain and Greece after WWII.
auditortuxFeb 13, 2012
What the heck are you talking about? The West never confronted fascism? Maybe you missed the other half of WW2 that wasn't on the Soviet front. Most of the West had fallen to Germany - only the UK remained in Europe. If not for what seem to be missteps by Germany, they were close to complete victory in Europe. (One of the biggest is that Germany declared war on the US after Japan attacked. If Germany had not, there is no way that FDR would have been able to convince America to go after Germany first when they did nothing to them. That probably would have given Germany the time to force the UK's surrender... and we'd probably have had a three-way Cold War)
Fascism and Communism are ugly twins - complete totalitarianism of an idea gone horribly wrong. Whether they use populism (Russia), nationalism (Germany) or capitalism (Italy...ish) as their excuse, its more about total control of the population than any ideology. And remember that Germany and the USSR had made an agreement to divide Poland - they were more than happy to sit next to each other and divide the spoils. If Germany hadn't attacked (another major misstep), the USSR might have never swung into action (granted, they might if they thought Germany was going to be defeated by the Allies, to annex more territory)
partrowFeb 12, 2012
They haven't controlled their spending.
They haven't controlled their immigration.
They haven't controlled their government.
The result is exactly what you see today.
Graf_OrlockFeb 12, 2012
Don't feel like traveling? Wait a few years and we can have such a utopia here, too.
flytrapFeb 12, 2012
Clearly you know very little about Greece... Greece does not have an immigration problem (not even poor eastern Europeans want to go to Greece). Greece has an emigration problem!
partrowFeb 12, 2012
This was the third sentence in the story: "For one thing, she was struck by the surge of immigrants."
Did you read the article?
Greece has a bad illegal immigration problem.
flytrapFeb 12, 2012
Have you been living in the same Europe as the rest of us over the last few years!?
Perhaps if Eirini Vourloumis (the person around whom the article was written) had stayed in Greece over the last 12 years she would have seen how Greece has been decimated by the departure of its youngest, brightest and most able bodied professionals.
As in the case of Portugal, Greece has seen more emigration than immigration... and most of the immigration has been from people and professionals like Eirini Vourloumis returning home to see if they can make something out of the collapse, not Eastern Europeans or North Africans (who are generally smart enough to go to economies where there are jobs and not places where the locals cannot get even the most menial jobs).
partrowFeb 12, 2012
Yes, many young citizens have left Spain, Portugal, Greece, etc. in the past few years. But these countries and others have also experienced a wave of illegal immigrants, especially from Africa. Pakistanis have also come in numbers. I am suggesting that this has contributed to the economic conditions which resulted in the citizen emigrants leaving.
In case you doubt the serious problem check these:
http://tinyurl.com/7vktkwh
http://tinyurl.com/836cd2g
http://tinyurl.com/6ue9h79
http://www.economist.com/node/16847278
Greece and the Southern European countries are not the only countries with the problem of illegals. France also has a serious illegal immigration problem, as does Germany and other more Northern countries. Of course the U.S.A. also has the same problem with its Southern border.
blingalingFeb 13, 2012
Actually it has both an ILLEGAL immigrant problem and an emigration problem.
Low skilled third world illegals are still entering Greece by the boatload (on a massive scale especially when one considers its tiny size) while at the same time the indigenous Greeks with actual job skills are leaving for greener pastures. (through legal channels).
If someone wants to turn their country into a third world nation... just let in the third world with no regard for controls and integration.
And if you want controls and to deport illegals.... according to some patronizing self-proclaimed "human rights" activists you are a "racist".
I am pro human rights but I think at least some of these "human groups" are actually partially responsible for helping create humanitarian crisis because of their self-righteous extremist positions. Some NGOs are basically just a few loudmouth twits that think adding the words "human rights' into their sentences means they are free to slander anyone and that they don't sometimes make morally wrong assessments of a situation.
satori3000Feb 12, 2012
The people don't want to control their spending, they expect the government to simply pay for everything, then when the economy crashes they blame the government when it says that it has to let civil servants go.
spatula7Feb 12, 2012
So there was an economic crisis, but unlike Iceland they can't devalue their currency or punish the risk takers who over extended themselves. And now the austerity will compound the problem by shrinking their economy faster than their ability to pay down their accumulating debt. They really are in a vice aren't they.
hibby76Feb 13, 2012
Not much difference between Greece's present and America's future..........
philperspectiveFeb 13, 2012
You are wrong. The USA controls its own printing press. Greece doesn't. And that makes all the difference in the world.
kochevnik2001Feb 13, 2012
Israel controls your printing press. And telephone bills, in case you make too many calls to the wrong people
hibby76Feb 13, 2012
You're right and I'd add that the USD is the world's reserve currency.........for now.
Those are the reasons why it hasn't happened to us YET. However there will come a time when the value of the US dollar plummets and it will have roughly the same value as toilet paper. Zimbabwe and Argentina both had printing presses as well.
When it does happen, it will be far worse than anything the worlds seen before. There's a big difference between hyperinflation and currency collapse in Argentina vs the United States. It's going to be a LOT uglier than what's going on in Greece.
Closed AccountFeb 13, 2012
I dugg you and wish to remind you printing more notes devalues the currency in circulation, ergo inflation, which hurts the poor most.
rudegarFeb 13, 2012
immigration ?
`
did you just copy paste your American worries?
breadfredFeb 13, 2012
No, the problem is that they did not pay their taxes. Spending was indeed also a problem with the low pension age, ridiculous payments (eg hazard money for hairdressers) and wide spread corruption.
drich255Feb 13, 2012
Agreed. They may have unpaid taxes, but countries still shouldn't spend money they haven't collected.
blingalingFeb 13, 2012
You're right. Something like 90% of the EU's illegals pass through Greece (which makes up 2-3% of EU). To compound matters virtually all those illegals evade taxes.
Unfortunately bleeding heart far leftist idiots (not the same as moderate left) keep crying "racism" every time Greece tries to deport the massive numbers of illegals within its borders (framing them as "migrants" rather than border violators). It has reached the point that even when they are caught holding facilities are so overrun with illegals it presents inhumane conditions.
There is nothing wrong with immigrantion. In fact its a positive. However it needs to be both controlled (to allow integration) and applicants screened for suitability. Opening the doors to the third world will just turn a country into the third world (like Greece is fast becoming) and end up with a counter reaction of far right extremist groups. (which IMO are often the result of a country trying to hold on to its identity and dignity)
number23Feb 12, 2012
Coming soon to a country near you!
hibby76Feb 13, 2012
Yep............
ybevar1Feb 13, 2012
Let this be a hard lesson for Americans to learn.
With all the spending in the last 11 years and the trillions we are now paying interest on, this could be what the US looks like in the future.
hibby76Feb 13, 2012
WILL be unless the idiots in Washington can turn it around.......which they won't.
jbeltran23Feb 12, 2012
People need to see this and realize that their lives are more forgiving than the lives of people in other countries.
DiggPiggletFeb 12, 2012
No, Austerity is what it should have been like. Years of spending what they didn't have started it all.
icwydFeb 12, 2012
They're spending is much less than ours and they have a lot more!
Why?
I know the answer, I just want to hear your warped answer.
icwydFeb 12, 2012
*Their
DiggPiggletFeb 12, 2012
Per capita? Better look again. Compare them against Germany. Germany only spends money on getting people to work. Greece (and the US) pay people not to work. Big difference.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
icwydFeb 12, 2012
GDP
DiggPiggletFeb 12, 2012
GDP per capita. OK. I guess you agree with me. Good man.
peppermintpigFeb 13, 2012
GDP is less than useless. It's a central planner's statistical gauge that can be swayed by the manipulation of currency and government spending. Next issue...
hibby76Feb 13, 2012
No printing press.
vectorzFeb 13, 2012
dont let the propaganda fool you. the photographer only publishes the pics they want you to see to paint a picture of poor victimized innocent do nothing wrong greeks. if you've ever been to greece you'd know that's the farthest from reality. i'll just leave this here http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ianmcowie/100012894/fast-cars-and-loose-fiscal-morals-there-are-more-porsches-in-greece-than-taxpayers-declaring-50000-euro-incomes/
tom536Feb 13, 2012
I returned to visit several times only to find everyone fighting in the cafes for their respective political parties. Where are these politicians now? They have managed to rob the country down to the last euro and just wait because its coming here also. Our system is just a problematic as we have a 14 trillion dollar problem......
mikewindekFeb 12, 2012
Gotta love the philosophy of getting out of their economic woes through austerity. I've never seen it work before, the <a href="http://ratracefreedom.net">rat race</a> is unforgiving.
sanmanFeb 12, 2012
Gotta love the philosophy of staying healthy by spending way more than you can afford, evading taxes, falsifying your economic data, and getting upto your eyeballs in debt.
Ever read that story about the Grasshopper and the Ant?
unclefireFeb 12, 2012
It probably would not have been so bad had they not had so many people engaged in tax evasion. It is part of the culture there and a few other countries.
yurmutha412Feb 12, 2012
Once you start charging over 25 percent tax, you get tax evasion because it becomes well worth the time and trouble. It's like the black market etc. At a certain point, that's what happens.
hibby76Feb 13, 2012
The fact is that they have to spend LESS than what they collect. What they "should collect in theory" is irrelevant.
Tell your credit card company that you SHOULD have gotten a raise therefore you SHOULD have been able to afford the payment................
hibby76Feb 13, 2012
There's no economy to tax and lender's aren't exactly lining up wanting to bail them out. Austerity is about their only option........and it's the only one that will work.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
bigsandsFeb 12, 2012
You country is being used to make an example, there is no quick fix solution and protesting is not a solution anymore.
sanmanFeb 12, 2012
The solution was for people of differing lifestyles not to enter into a common currency in the first place.
If you like to snore loudly at night and play loud music all the time, is it a good idea to move in with someone who likes to have quiet and wants to have a good sleep at night?
barackalypseFeb 12, 2012
Less Government, more taxes. The price of decades of over-spending. Coming soon to a theater near you.
hibby76Feb 13, 2012
Unless the tax rates are on the right side of the curve, then lower tax rates would be necessary.
satori3000Feb 12, 2012
you can't go out and get loans all over the place, get a job where you don't have to do much and then freak out and break everything when people ask you to pay your debts back. What's worse still is the idea that Greece may default on their loans which will cause all the countries that trusted them in the first place and gave them loans to fall apart.Everything about this screams selfish entitlement, you can't simply have everything for free.
mksmothersFeb 12, 2012
This is what happens when you allow socialism to run a country to the ground. Austarity is simply another word for, we can't keep giving you freebies, someone has to pay for it, and they aren't doing it anymore.Comment is buried, click here to see the rest.
satori3000Feb 13, 2012
I agree, this is socialism with a sense of entitlement and it's completely broken Greece. Having said that I really hope no one is honestly saying that the US is a socialist state, because it's nowhere near socialist. There is a social safety net yes, but the US is very much a capitalist state.
bobcat7407Feb 13, 2012
The US is hardly a capitalist state, the US is much more of a CRONY capitalist state if you want to make that comparison.
hibby76Feb 13, 2012
It's amazing that people disagree with you for such a common sense response. Those are the people that are going to try to vote in representatives that are going to drive us off the cliff of bankruptcy.
sudheerkumargondiFeb 13, 2012
live and go to their home village so they look like
jeremiah5674Feb 13, 2012
Yeah its amazing have you look our site http://www.oncloudcomputing.net
kasha34Feb 12, 2012
"the most dramatic shift for Greeks has been psychological."
Then it's no big deal.
analogassassinFeb 12, 2012
Greece = YASF = Yet Another Socialism FAIL.
gaia242Feb 13, 2012
DERP DERP DERP!
It was the CONSERVATIVE party that had lied about how bad the budget was BEFORE the socialist party took over. BUT please lets not let fact get in the way of your ideology.
Just like a good foot soldier of the modern conservative movement, you have your own universe you live in. Dont take my word for it, according to former Republican ideologue, David Frum "conservatives have built a whole alternative knowledge system, with its own facts, its own history, its own laws of economics".
hibby76Feb 13, 2012
Systemic problems like those in Greece can't be blamed on one person or one party. It comes down to the fact that they all failed at balancing a simple budget and saying "no" to things that they couldn't afford.
..........not so different than what is (and will be) going on in the USA.
rudegarFeb 13, 2012
no their financial problems started when they had a right wing government
thats why they elected the left wing government
johnnysoftwareFeb 20, 2012
Anyone else curious who fired the bullets whose wholes are prominently shown on the interior wall the woman is standing in front of?
It seems like that might be a pivotal fact a lot of others revolve around.
jbird32275Feb 13, 2012
Gold standard. Enough said.
LuisPastorFeb 12, 2012
PIGS in chain: http://acartoonaday.blogspot.com/2012/02/default-pigs.html
chordonblueFeb 12, 2012
Wonderful and succinct!
LuisPastorFeb 12, 2012
Thanks! this is better, Enjoy it!: http://acartoonaday.blogspot.com/2011/06/greek-debt-engitaspa-thanks-to-sam.html
crimenr1Feb 12, 2012
http://howiw.com/
niyionifadeFeb 12, 2012
Awesome! www.megainsights.com
LuisPastorFeb 12, 2012
unmaking the EU: http://acartoonaday.blogspot.com/2011/06/unmaking-european-union.html
mrprinksFeb 12, 2012
http://www.aboutnewreviews.tk/2012/02/download-app-aplikasi-android.html